Episodes 2.12 & 2.13: “Trick or Treat, Aria”

We stand in full support of Palestinian liberation and believe that Israel should end its genocidal violence and occupation. If you don’t agree, please fuck off.

We’re back again, bitches! Episodes 2.12 (“Over My Dead Body”) and 2.13 (“The First Secret”) are wildly different and we treat them as such. The first has it all: creepy dolls! Ali visitation! Stopping weddings! Answers to lingering questions! But Emily’s appropriative Halloween costume in the second episode makes us sad and mad, and Deepa provides context with infuriating facts. We hope you accept a longer episode as an apology for our absence.

Our awesome theme song is composed by Ashok R. Chandran! You can find his other work at his website.

Episode Transcript:  Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpeas Oh My Gosh: Cameron loves chopped salads! Cucina Cucina recipe and a shout out to this recipe inspired by the one at Pablo y Pablo. More chopped salad discourse to come

Fashion Analysis: Our best and worst outfits!

Deepa’s Literary Analysis: Deepa fails at figuring out what James Joyce book Meredith is reading, but Deepa did so much research for this episode that all is forgiven

Grounding PLL in Indigenous history:

• Emily’s appropriative costume is especially violent in a show about a missing white girl, given the epidemic of Missing and Murdered Indigenous People (MMIP) and the high rates of violence Indigenous women and girls face
• Pennsylvania has invisibilized its Indigenous residents, including the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania, which is fighting for state recognition (you can sign a petition at their website)
• Yet Pennsylvania was also home to the Carlisle Industrial School, which was the U.S.’s flagship residential school and killed and abused Indigenous children

Things We Referenced Related to PLL: 

• The PLL Wiki’s timeline of the show

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL: 

• The phenomenon where people in survival situations envision another person helping them is called Third Man Syndrome 
• 2008, but you were probably there
• Notting Hill is boring
• deeper cuts! 
• Fuck Sweetgreen for having a founder who is both Zionist and horrible in other ways??

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to Free Lawrence Jenkins! Lawrence is an incredible abolitionist, artist, farmer, political educator, organizer, & friend of ours who is currently incarcerated. Help his defense committee to fight for his release!

Transcript

Cameron: Welcome back everybody to your favorite Pretty Little Liars. Podcast I'm Cameron.

Deepa: I’m Deepa.

Cameron: And today we will be going over episode 12, over my dead body and episode 13. The first secret which is honestly probably the best thing about that episode, that title.

Deepa: Good title.

Cameron: I think the as per Deepa's suggestion, we're going to try to treat these episodes separately, because they're very different in tone and in our feelings about them. So This is gonna be a new thing for us, not merging the episodes. Taking them as separate things.

Deepa: Well, and I think this is the first time where the episodes haven't like been well, matched so, you know.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: We just got lucky before. 

Cameron: Do you have something you'd like to start with for the first episode.

Deepa: Sure. I mean. okay. first of all, I loved the first episode. I thought it was really fun and had a lot of good moments that I was looking forward to and excited to see. We also got a lot of answers to questions that you and I have been like speculating on so far This season.

Cameron: Right?! I love getting. I love getting answers.

Deepa: And it's funny, because I feel like probably when we first watch this and when you know anyone who's first watching this, you know, mid season Finales are usually like Oh, they seem like they're gonna give you an answer. And then they're not. And like the answers that we got were not things that would be satisfying if you hadn't watched the show before. Because they're just they raise more questions. But for us we're like, Oh, these are details that we forgot we know the big plot. So they're like. Oh, yeah. So I guess Garrett and Jenna wrote that note in Jason's pocket.

Cameron: Incredible. and it sounds like Jenna still thinks Garrett killed Ally.

Deepa: Yes, so, which is so weird. I don't know what he gets out of her thinking that like.

Cameron: It's not. Yeah. I don't know what the like.

Deepa: She likes him more like is she gonna break up with him If he didn't murder the person that like harmed her? I don't know. I just don't.

Cameron: is Jenna, who he says you shouldn't be here to? like cause we get a you know how we usually get a pov when we're being A. But He said it to the camera, to us. You shouldn’t be here at the station and then he was with Jenna. So did Jenna just show up, and he was like, I wanted to talk about this later.

Deepa: Maybe maybe I yeah.

Cameron: But it was weird.

Deepa: That is weird

Cameron: Is this Mona.

Deepa: Perspective, yeah.

Cameron: Cause. I I also did, we got answers, But I also have more questions.

Deepa: Always.

Cameron: Cause Garrett and Jenner are very pleased with themselves right now. And had something to do with the liars getting caught. But I am kind of unclear, because most of it's Mona.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And they're not on the A team. There isn't an A team yet.

Deepa: No, there isn't an A team. They're not working with Mona for sure.

Cameron: How I'm just like, what did they do? Did they plant the fucking shovel? How would they know where the shovel was? They just make an anonymous tip.

Deepa: Maybe they did plant the shovel, but, like the planting of the shovel, also suggests that. Like okay, I. I listened to these episodes few weeks ago. Now did did they? Did they say?

Cameron: I just watched it Right before this.

Deepa: Great Great.

Cameron: so we are Fresh.

Deepa: Did they say anything about The shovel about like whether they'd done DNA on the shovel or.

Cameron: No, no, DNA on the shovel, we don't care. They were just holding it.

Deepa: They were just holding it. But I mean, how do they? But I guess, how do they know that it's the shovel that killed Alison, which is actually Bethany.

Cameron: They fucking don't because they don't have page 5.

Deepa: True, true.

Cameron: They just like suspect, because it.

Deepa: Which we do know what page 5 is now, which is helpful. I think it is the physical and forensic evidence.

Cameron: Physical and forensic evidence.

Deepa: Mona probably did steal because she wants people to think it's Allison in the grave. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, how could they have planted the shovel? I mean, Garrett would have known if the Oh, no, wait. Garrett has page 5, doesn't he?

Cameron: Is that what he gave to Jenna.

Deepa: Yeah, I think he or, Yeah.

Cameron: Well, she said, is this page 5? He didn't confirm whether it was page 5, but.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, yeah, good, point.

Cameron: Someone has. Page 5.

Deepa: Probably whoever has page 5 is the one who planted the shovel, so if it is Garrett, then he planted a shovel because he knows like he might not be able to put DNA on it, but.

Cameron: Yeah, he.

Deepa: But he would be able to read it and be like it was with an object curved like this like a shovel, you know. So maybe they did plant that.

Cameron: But then it just seems like they have to be in cahoots with Mona, because they planted at a weird barn in the middle of nowhere.

Deepa: Oh, yeah, you're right. You're right. And Mona, definitely, did you know, yeah, Mona definitely did the rest of it.

Cameron: Oh, my God, Mona, stuff in this episode is amazing. We got dolls. We got.

Deepa: Dolls for the first time.

Cameron: We got like masks like creepy, like fake dead therapists.

Deepa: Programming Emily's GPS, which Emily is using to get to the church in the middle of the small town where she's lived all her life. Why do you need GPS for that, Emily?

Cameron: You do not.

Deepa: You know where that church is

Cameron: Love the reveal that her doll was in her car. I loved that.

Deepa: Me, too. not gonna lie when there was first no doll for Emily. My first thought was that Mona couldn't find one with the right skin color annoyed about it, and she was like, I gotta torture Emily with the right skin color doll. A little longer to find one.

Cameron: Yeah, she had to do a little digging.

Deepa: Cause they were all so white, and that one was brown. I'm glad that they found the right doll.

Cameron: That's so funny. Mona's like. No.

Deepa: I can excuse torturing all these people, but I draw the line at whitewashing

Cameron: yeah, I I love them dolls with recordings, little memos. I I think it's interesting what Spencer said like calling A a frenemy the ultimate frenemy, and being like she's making us like, get what we want. But like.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: In these ways that like aren't good.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Super Interesting.

Cameron: Super interesting, because I don't think that's something that happens most times for A stuff.

Deepa: No, unless it's unless it's things like trying to get one of them to turn right like or. Yeah, that kind of stuff, I guess. But that really only happens with Emily now and aria later. And aria, that's not Mona doing that. So?

Deepa: Yeah. no, it was really interesting. I'm like very brilliant.

Cameron: Yeah, it's like, this is, shit you guys want? Yeah, exactly.

Deepa: Except as usually. I think aria gets off easy, right like this is why the aria was A theory was also so popular because aria didn't always get things that were that bad, right? Like things like this, where? Like. yeah, I guess she might have some moral feelings about blackmailing someone. But she doesn't give a fuck. Spencer had to break up with Toby.

Cameron: broke up with Toby. Hanna had to like stop a wedding like the scale. Also, like it is embarrassing that Jackie plagiarized a paper.

Deepa: Hmm.

Cameron: Like that.

Deepa: Yeah, it just seems like more work to like translate that paper from French.

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: Maybe because I don't speak French, but it seems really hard to like. Translate that paper rather than just write your own

Cameron: I also have questions because she's in the psychology department. Why is she writing French papers about French painters?

Deepa: I don't know. I don't. I mean, I guess you can apply psychoanalysis to a lot of other things, including art. But like ugh!

Cameron: ew.

Deepa: I hate it. Yeah, like, people like, apply psychoanalysis to like Hamlet.

Cameron: Oh, sure!

Deepa: It's oedipal. If you were wondering.

Cameron: What?

Deepa: Always oedipal

Cameron: I don't see it.

Cameron: Yeah, it seems much harder to translate than To just write your own fucking paper. Yeah.

Deepa: Is that the thing like, Yeah, I guess if you were in art history you could be writing this independent paper. But like. I presume. And well, I guess it depends on what kind of psychology you're doing. She doesn't seem to be doing clinical psychology, but like psychology, you usually don't usually co-author papers. Aren't you like or like work with people.

Cameron: yeah, I feel like there's  like you were saying different kinds of psychology. But like big studies

Deepa: Yeah. yeah, there's like.

Cameron: People can.

Deepa: gathering the data, like, yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. So I think she just might not be A great academic.

Deepa: Which is like, you know. Sure. it is embarrassing.

Cameron: It's embarrassing.

Deepa: Yeah. It's also wild that she, like forgives aria for that later, you know. Cause like.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: When Aria writes the college essay, or whatever she totally forgives her for that. I mean. you know everything Aria wrote was true.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So maybe she was like, Yeah, this 16 year old, who was being abused, blackmailed me with my plagiarism paper that makes sense.

Cameron: Right? Like, yeah, that checks out.

Deepa: I guess I guess if that happened to me I'd probably be like, Yeah, that's not your fault. Yeah, that's really not your fault.

Cameron: Oh, but then she shows up at her parents house.

Deepa: when when she showed up at her parents house, because that's also the first time we actually meet Jackie, I was reminded of you saying in the first season that Jackie doesn't look like a real person.

Cameron: she doesn’t, It’s off!

Deepa: Composite image or something. An AI, because her face always looks the same too. It's not like like she doesn't have a ton of different expressions. I think so

Cameron: Just looks like a like you're it like there's a filter, or there's.

Deepa: Yeah, that's exactly it. It looks like a filter. Yeah.

Cameron: Like, okay. Jackie.

Cameron: That was my least favorite outfit. What Aria was wearing during that incident and during the day. 

Deepa: Okay. Yeah, okay. my least favorite was, well. I hated both Aria's wedding outfit and Hanna's wedding outfit. But Hanna's isn't her fault.

Cameron: we can’t Blame Hanna for that.

Deepa: No, and it's like a point right like the the point is of an ugly bridesmaid's dress is like a whole. So I'm gonna go with Aria's wedding.

Cameron: Yeah. Aria's wedding outfit was also bad, especially the little like Skull necklace situation.

Deepa: It was it just like, even if you're going with the rosettes like that did not go, you know, like I don't even like the rosette dress, but it wasn't. It wouldn't have been so objectionable.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: if it hadn’t Been there, but.

Deepa: Her hair does not look good crimped.

Cameron: she should not Do that.

Deepa: it does not work for her.

Cameron: I thought Emily had the best dress at the wedding.

Deepa: Yes, Emily's was, I think, the best. She just didn't make it to the wedding. But yeah.

Cameron: She did not.

Deepa: I thought Spencer's was fine, too, but I was like, why is she wearing white to a wedding like it? Just.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't know. It looks so summary like, what is this.

Deepa: Yeah, it was just silly, but I gave best outfit to Caleb's wedding suit.

Cameron: Hell! Yes, I support that.

Deepa: It was maybe cheating, but it was good. It was a good suit. It wasn't.

Cameron: It was like so nice to see Caleb, too. Yeah.

Deepa: he looked so Good. He was nice to see him. It was nice to have Caleb and Maya in the same episode. I think I was complaining about that last week.

Cameron: you were.

Deepa: I don't know if they ever interact, but at least they're both there. Yeah.

Deepa: What? Why wasn't Mona at the wedding, at Tom's wedding. like all her other friends, were there.

Cameron: That's a great question.

Deepa: Did she just cancel because she had to go do A stuff like she was invited, and she was like, Oh, I'm sorry I'm sick.

Cameron: There's like so many arts projects to do like fucking, running around like finding dolls dressing them.

Deepa: Plus. She had to go stick a straw in the sand, which is hilarious. No dirt which is hilarious like. What a good way to make people think you're buried someone alive. Also, you were right about the boots. 

Cameron: Thank you. Them Being arrested is so silly.

Deepa: So dramatic, so dramatic.

Cameron: I guess like because you just see Aria and Spencer and Hanna initially, are we supposed to think they killed Emily?

Deepa: they're just a bunch of teenagers with a shovel like.

Cameron: they have a shovel.

Deepa: They're not even using the shovel, for some reason

Cameron: They're clawing.

Deepa: even though they have a shovel conveniently given to them.

Cameron: Yeah, they didn't. They barely touch that shovel.

Deepa: But yeah, you gotta like surround them from all sides, including a. The air that's like, does rosewood police have a helicopter? Was that was that the fed like.

Cameron: Wilden's personal helicopter.

Deepa: Yeah, cause I don't think we have any Feds, or even not Feds. Whoever those.

Cameron: Oh, my God! Right.

Deepa: Marshals or whatever. But they're not here for a while.

Cameron: The Holbrook and.

Deepa: Yes, and. Other one. What's her name? Tanner? Tanner.

Cameron: Tanner. Yeah.

Deepa: I don’t Think they show up until Wilden is dead, maybe.

Deepa: which is a while.

Cameron: That's a while.

Deepa: maybe they show up before wilden’s dead. But I don't know exactly definitely, not. I don't think they show up this season.

Cameron: The wilden then reveal is funny. It just zooms in on his lips. You're like, Oh, God!

Deepa: This is bad cause. I'm supposed to be the one with the memory. But why did Wilden leave.

Cameron: He did bad remember. 

Deepa: what did he do that was bad. That's what I can't remember.

Cameron: Oh, he was like planting evidence. No, he wasn't planting evidence, but he was. It was something. Okay I feel like he was pressuring. Well, he's definitely pressuring them without their lawyer. And Veronica was like, what the fuck are you doing.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: And I feel like there was maybe something like he was being I mean, he's definitely being inappropriate the whole time.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And I think I feel like Veronica got him fired. Okay, okay, but I guess I can't have a detail.

Deepa: I mean I I remember I remember the her yelling at him in the library episode. I just don’t remember After that, what happened? But yeah it makes sense that he would do a bad. I just don't know which bad he's done yet.

Cameron: Multiple bads.

Deepa: or which bad they've caught him for

Cameron: For sure. Yeah, I I feel like Veronica Veronica gets it shut down. But now he's back because of evidence. Yes.

Deepa: Or see. Was it? Is it something to do with like him getting it wrong with Ian and shit like him? Not focused.

Cameron: Ian?

Deepa: Well, cause they think Ian killed Allison.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And he didn't think that. So maybe they're like. I don't know. Anyway, I don't know why.

Cameron: He's gone before then.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: Oh, gosh! 

Deepa: sorry

Cameron: No, it's fine. It's all good. I mean, it's a nebulous thing, you know the plot and the who can even Say, you know? but he's back baby.

Deepa: He's back. He's back.

Cameron: There wasn't a lot of him being his former like complete fuck Of a self. Like He himself is a fuck. But he wasn't like, yeah, being weirdly like pressuring anyone. Yet.

Deepa: He was sort of being a normal cop, which is still a fuck, but, like.

Cameron: Is a fuck. but like not, I don't know.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think, probably because he got in trouble. He's like.

Cameron: He did get kicked out.

Deepa: So he's like going down the straight and narrow, or whatever

Deepa: Spencer just glaring at him through the one way mirror.

Cameron: Hmm! I like that a lot.

Deepa: That was a fun sort of transition.

Cameron: Like Garrett being like. There's probably a promotion in here for you.

Deepa: Garret, like working him

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: It's so funny.

Cameron: Okay, Garrett, he's excited to get rid of his silly little uniform.

Deepa: Also the reveal that Garrett is only in the police for Jenna, What?

Cameron: What

Deepa: I mean, we do know from later seasons that becoming a police officer in rosewood only takes like 2 weeks, because that's how long Toby takes to go through the Police Academy.

Cameron: That’s true

Deepa: Guess it's not that big a deal

Cameron: It's not that big of a deal to become a rosewood cop, except then you're a rosewood cop.

Deepa: You're probably pretty likely to end up dead. Honestly.

Cameron: It's not. Yeah. Odd. They're not great.

Deepa: No, no.

Cameron: They got murdered a fair amount.

Deepa: They do. Okay. I know we don't understand why Garrett hasn't told Jenna that he didn't kill Allison.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But why? What did what were Garrett and Jenna hoping to achieve with the note that they slipped in Jason's pocket before they knew Alison was missing? because of the whole problem with Garrett pretending to Jenna that he killed Alison. Is that for the rest of that night he doesn't know Alison's gonna go missing.  the next day Alison could just show up at Jenna's and be and like Jenna, would be like what what the fuck happened. Oh, you're alive! I guess you know. So if he had actually killed Alison, then it would make sense that he would slip a note in Jason's pocket. Sure, But he doesn't know what's happening. I guess, unless he does, and we just never find out cause he dies is too soon. But.

Cameron: Oh, like Garrett knows everything.

Deepa: Garrett just like watched what was going on for the rest of the night.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Maybe, and Ally, we're gonna like plot together because she goes like shh to him when he doesn’t actually kill her.

Cameron: That's true. So then she’s Like slip a note in my brother's sweatshirt.

Deepa: We never have heard happen. So we're just making it up. But I'm trying to make sense of this.

Cameron: yeah. That's a good point, because the timing of the note is very interesting.

Deepa: It's always been my question about the note in Jason's pocket, like who knew something enough to slip a note in Jason's pocket other than like his mother or charlotte

Cameron: His mother would be so funny. Jessica.

Deepa: Okay. Another answer that we got that raised more questions. Ali says that she knows who A is. Yeah. And at first, I was like, I don't want. I'm not gonna believe her. I think that was poor writing. But I want to actually talk it out like, does that mean that she might know who A is and not tell them. because her last interaction with Mona was Mona helping her before she flees town, so is she scared of Mona enough to not tell them that Mona’s torturing them? You know what I mean. Like.

Cameron: I mean, if she knows that Mona's A, She knows that mona is like doing a bunch of shit right.

Deepa: hyper Reality shit.

Cameron: Yeah, like, she's on another plane. Yeah, I'm like.

Deepa: And Ali still Doesn't know who tried to kill her. So cause that's not Mona, but.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Which is why she's afraid of coming home right like she can't come home until she figures out who tried to kill her.

Cameron: But like when she said that bitch talking about A like that could be Mona right.

Deepa: yeah, and then that would match what we speculated about. When we got our last ALI visitation, where she tells Hanna something, like I told the truth to the wrong person, or something.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Remember we were speculating about that, and we decided that was Mona, that she told the truth, too. So I guess that would all fit together. It just still seems weird that she wouldn't tell them. You know.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: She's not. She's not afraid enough of Mona to not show up right like she's still showing up for these visitations with the liars. You know what I mean like.

Cameron: Yeah, like, why not? Just say it.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, I like visitations with the liars. I think that's a great little name for something.

Cameron: Oh, my God! This one was so sweet.

Deepa: Oh, I love this visitation so much! I was so excited when I realized it was happening.

Cameron: Like Emily, just like touching her lips after, like the lingering like what just happened like Ali kissed me. But like what?

Deepa: Ali told her. You are always my favorite, and I think I miss you the most. What do you mean? You think, Alison? Of course you miss Emily the most. still trying to play it cool, I guess. The girl you’ve been in love with forever. And will be in love with forever.

Cameron: Forever. I know, like there's a phenomenon where, like people in like incredibly stressful or traumatic situations, will like create another person.

Deepa: Oh!

Cameron: Like like visualize like, believe that there's another person there helping you out in this situation. Yeah. And so I think that's like what they want us to think. Yeah, it's like Emily, just like hulked out.

Deepa: Got herself out.

Cameron: And didn’t faint from carbon monoxide poisoning. She was just like, no, I got this and got the Door open.

Deepa: I love that too honestly. 

Cameron: It’s not bad but I guess so Mona did that, and then just left like locked her in the thing, and then, just like dipped.

Deepa: Yeah. Like, was she actually trying to kill Emily? That doesn't seem very good for her plan.

Cameron: And like. That's what Ali said like. Is that what this bitch thinks that you want to be completely rid of A? The only way you can be rid of A is to die.

Deepa: Well, so, okay, so so that whole conversation is like a very interesting rhetorical thing that they do, too. Right? Because again, I think when we first watched this, I really thought Ali was dead, so I thought she was having this vision, and they were literally talking about Emily like dying, not going with her. Is that what Ali it means, or does she mean run away with? Come hide out with me

Cameron: to like Philadelphia, or wherever.

Deepa: It's not that far. But like have to cut off everything in your life, because which will rid you of A right so.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So I don't know.

Deepa: Like Ali could mean she's broken you to the point that you're giving up and like You know 

Cameron: Or like Run away with me.

Deepa: I mean, there's obviously that element. But Ali’s not going to say That out loud. even if she's gonna kiss Emily.

Cameron: Yeah. Bananas to just maybe attempt to murder Emily.

Deepa: Like, what does that do for Mona?

Cameron: What are we doing? What’s the plan?

Deepa: I thought she was Trying to turn Emily into the weakest link to get her to work with her, you know. maybe she was there, but just watching, but that makes it even like weirder that Ali would show up then, because I guess Ali thinks, couldn't think that Mona would actually try to murder her.

Cameron: Trying to murder Ali?

Deepa: No Emily.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: Like Ali could have weighed the risk of like yeah Mona might be here watching this, but she has to save Emily

Cameron: Emily's like, in danger. Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. Great. I don't know. I don't know great questions.

Cameron: more Questions.

Deepa: More questions.

513

00:28:43.120 --> 00:28:44.340

Cameron: two Answers.

Deepa: More than 2 answers. We got an answer. About page 5. We got.

Cameron: That’s true

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Oh, my God! Speaking of trying to kill people. Mona just slashes Toby's brakes!

Deepa: great segue! 

Cameron: Or cuts his like, break whatever sever brake line severed.

Deepa: Don't understand why Toby is always in like vehicular danger. Motorcycle crash in the first, season and now this there is a like a lot of Toby in vehicles.

I guess there's a lot of vehicular danger in the show. But still Toby seems particularly pronounced. Yeah, I guess Mona's trying to commit murder. I don't know.

Cameron: Is she bored?

Deepa: I guess maybe.

maybe she didn't get invited to Hanna's dad's wedding, and she's annoyed about it.

Cameron: Oh, that could check out! That makes sense.

Deepa: And she, like went with Hanna to the bridesmaid dress fitting, and she didn't get invited to the wedding. Come on.

Cameron: Yeah, that's a bad look.

Deepa: Yeah, the liars did.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Great. Another another piece of our theory that Mona's just always acting on being upset at Hanna

Cameron: Oh, yeah, Caleb's returned.

Deepa: True.

Cameron: Very upsetting. She doesn't handle that. Well.

Deepa: No, no.

Deepa: Okay. Speaking of the wedding.

Cameron: Yeah, hit me.

Deepa: first of all what did Tom before the wedding, enter Hanna's bedroom, and immediately give her a punch on the shoulder.

Cameron: Oh, my God! I just was reading my notes that, says Tom. Friend Punch, like Hey kiddo!

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. Like.

Cameron: What?

Deepa: Also. The rehearsal was just last night, like I know that they do that with weddings, but it seemed weird to me that they were so close together, because, like anyway, I don't know.

Cameron: Does seem weird, but I guess it like has to be cause the way rosewood is.

Deepa: Time in Rosewood

Cameron: Time. But how did she get a new dress?

Deepa: Great question, great question.

Cameron: Like she went out that night or the this morning.

Deepa: That morning.

Cameron: And got a new dress.

Deepa: I also love that Hanna doesn't wait for the like. If anyone here has reason to.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Just like interrupting.

Cameron: Just like hello.

Cameron: Isabel!

Deepa: we need to Talk.

Cameron: Yeah. You probably should have told her that, Tom.

Deepa: should have told her that, Tom. Yeah, but Hanna maybe should have told her before the wedding.

Cameron: Yeah, maybe.

Deepa: That would have been less catastrophic. But I guess. And yeah, Hanna is in a rock and a hard place

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: At least she had a getaway car.

Cameron: She did. that was cute.

Deepa: Very cute. They just leave

Cameron: Like, oh, it's our que to like. Kind of get things going

Cameron: Oh. we got fucking wren.

Deepa: We did ugh

Cameron: What the fuck is his fucking problem.

Deepa: He’s an abuser! That's this fucking problem, like Spencer says not to kiss her, and he, fucking, does.

Cameron: Ew, and he's like so like Bumbly, and like what it like. Oh, sorry like what the fuck.

Deepa: I'm not like I I'm so desperate. I was been desperate to do that, or whatever you're an adult. You're a fucking adult.

Cameron: No, no, don't do it.

Deepa: Like Spencer's, not immediately repulsed by it either. I guess she's just really emotional and.

Cameron: Sobbing for hours, or whatever.

Deepa: So. Yeah, but yeah. very, very gross.

Cameron: Yuck!

Deepa: Oh, we did get some more information, maybe, about the whole Jason and Peter situation. Firstly, Jason coming into the police station. Peter telling him that he shouldn't be there, and Jason saying, I think my sister would want me here.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: Fucking, hilarious.

Cameron: I love it. 

Deepa: I’m like I See what you did there show, and it's on the nose, but I love it.

Cameron: My Sister would want me here! Oh, my gosh! Oh!

Deepa: I was surprised that Veronica doesn't know about Peter being Jason's father. I thought she knew at this point, just because she was like defending Peter with the hockey stick shit. you know?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And how does she not divorce him now when she finds out?

Cameron: When does she find out like it's got to be kind of soon right.

Deepa: It's gotta be soon. Yeah. I think she's got to find out soon. When Spencer finds out. I don't think it stays a secret very long.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like, I think, at least like Melissa knows soon, like.

Cameron: She's not gonna find out tonight. Okay, Peter. Tomorrow? 

Deepa: Sure. when you bailed her out of jail

Cameron: We also get Ezra.

Deepa: yeah. I wish that what Ella said about Spencer's parents will ruin you actually happened. Because Ella that's in your control when it happens, like when you find out.

Cameron: It's the same thing of her talking this talk when it's not the situation that it is, and.

Deepa: Which is fucking wild because it's like you're. You're less worried when it's your child like.

Cameron: What?

Deepa: I mean. So I do think you know, some of Ella's like reaction, I think, comes from like, I don't want to lose our daughter that by having her run away or sent away to boarding school right like those are not the answers to the situation. But it just. I guess we'll get to this when it happens, which is relatively soon when they find out. But like doesn't have to be the only extremes.

Cameron: She could still be incredibly cold to him, incredibly like you don't deserve, you know, like she could maintain that with him.

Deepa: Yeah, and.

Cameron: Try to work. Like, yeah.

Deepa: And try to keep a relationship with aria, because that's important here. But that doesn't have to involve accepting Ezra.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: It just maybe forbidding aria from seeing him is not going to be successful. So you don't do that immediately, but you still impress upon her, that this is.

Cameron: Wrong.

Deepa: Situation that she is in.

Deepa: There are just. There are other ways to do it. And Ella's is eventually like, I'm gonna work with this thing that I have. But that's no.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Like you're a fucking teacher.

Cameron: You're a teacher, you understand the power that you have and the ugh

Deepa: Yeah. And you understand, these things don't happen as accidents, right? Like whatever whatever I mean, we all know it's not an accident, anyway. But whatever narrative Ezra is trying to spin at this point.

Cameron: Ew.

Deepa: Honestly, Ezra doesn't even have to do that much explaining. Aria does all the explaining for him. I think.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Except for saying things like, I'm in love with her.

Deepa: Fuck you, ezra.

Cameron: I know we're not talking about the second episode yet, but I just want to get this out of the way. That we see Ezra in our like as a student at Hollis or whatever, while Aria is like going to her dad's office. I'm like, I want to die.

Deepa: I hate that shit. And oh, yeah.

Cameron: It's not cute.

Deepa: No.

Deepa: Also, just while we're on that note. I don't understand. If Ezra did, his master's in English literature at Hollis, how did he not already know Byron? like Hollis, can't be that big. The master's program at at Hollis can't be that big.

Cameron: Cause. Byron's English right.

Deepa: Byron's an English professor.

Deepa: right? Like it's a college, not a university. So it's not that. And it's clearly like, yeah, it's clearly like, not that big right? It's not.

Cameron: If it's a college, they don't have fucking masters.

Deepa: I know that's a whole other thing.

Cameron: Sorry.

Deepa: I think some colleges might actually have Masters now.

Cameron: Really, okay.

Deepa: Well, yeah, but I think that may be a relatively recent thing. And is why we it is why we've been confused about the masters for a long time, because it probably.

Cameron: Doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense.

Deepa: Even if we go with the premise that Hollis has a master's program. Why didn't he know Byron already.

Cameron: Yeah. okay, let's say it's like an accelerated masters.

Deepa: Hmm.

Cameron: Those exist. Byron took a Sabbatical, took his whole family.

Deepa: Oh, true!

Cameron: Out of the country because he cheated

Cameron: so maybe it was a one year masters

Deepa: No, that's actually, that is actually very plausible. Yeah, yeah, there are definitely one of your master programs. I did one, yeah.

Deepa: okay, okay, you solved that one.

Cameron: That's my proposal. But.

Deepa: No, that makes that unfortunately makes sense.

Cameron: It doesn't make any of the shit better.

Deepa: No, no, nothing makes any of it better so. I'm just confused about some things.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: About Ezra’s whole deal.

Cameron: We're always confused about Ezra’s whole deal.

Cameron: Oh, God.

Deepa: I did as part of the second episode Look at the timeline on the PLL wiki, and we can talk more about that for the actual episode, but I did find out that Ezra is 6 years older than the liars, so he's the same age, as, like all of the other. Like Garrett, Melissa.

Cameron: Oh

Deepa: Wren, Ian, but that still doesn't. So then he must have had to do like a combined masters that you know, like he like we said. He's not a prodigy.

Cameron: He's not that smart.

Deepa: Having a master's at 22, maybe. I don't know. Maybe maybe he like skipped one grade because he was like close to the age, you know. We don't know when his birthday is.

Cameron: It happens, I started kindergarten early. 

Deepa: Great! Yes, you did. You're young. You're a baby. 

Cameron: I’m a baby. Cause my mother wanted me out of the house.

Deepa: That's really funny.

Cameron: I just I hate the like Spencer decoy of it all.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Like it adds this level of like. cause there's like a comedy almost yeah in that it's not her. So it's like, Oh, like.

Deepa: Yeah, it's like, Oh, look at his reaction when Ella, says Spencer, you know.

Cameron: Like fuck that like I hate it. It just.

Deepa: Almost takes away some of the tension of them finding out when it's aria, because they already have this suspicion. But you know what I mean. Like. Has been treated lightly, because it’s wrong. 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: No, it fucking sucks. And it's yeah. It's not funny. It's not.

Cameron: I don't want the tension to be cut like I don't want that to be like Whoa!

Deepa: Yeah. And it's like, Oh, is this supposed to be like, Oh, look! Ella's so wrong, you know. Like, is this putting Ella in a position of like. Oh, she fucked up. She's not, you know.

Cameron: I was like. She's not

Deepa: She’s not wrong about the the important parts.

Cameron: Yeah. I guess I are we done with our Ezra?

Deepa: Yes. Okay.

Cameron: I thought Veronica was like a criminal cause. She defends Garrett later, right.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, I thought so, too. She does. She does defend Garrett later. So I don't know.

Cameron: It got confusing when they're like they need a criminal lawyer, and they're like what the fuck is Veronica?

Deepa: Yeah. trying to think what else Veronica has done, though, like, does she just take that case on? Because Spencer is like a person of interest in the whole thing.

Cameron: Perhaps. But

Deepa: Still, weird.

Cameron: Still weird, like.

Deepa: Yeah. cause Peter's clearly a corporate lawyer or something.

Cameron: He's very corporate. Sipping scotch or whatever

Deepa: Exactly.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But I did. I did think Veronica was a defense lawyer. Yeah.

Cameron: Probably no one else has thought more about this than us.

Deepa: We're just really focused on everyone's careers like qualifications.

Cameron: That's so funny, cause I literally don't care about that at all in real life, like I literally don't know, like barely know what my friends do for work like.

Deepa: You know what I do for.

Cameron: I know what you do for work.

Deepa: We did like live together.

Cameron: But Like you know what I mean?

Deepa: No, I do know what you mean. I do know what you mean. I wouldn't be like hounding someone on whether they have a masters or a bachelors.

Cameron: No, in real life.

Deepa: We're just trying to figure out Ezra’s age. I think, with that right, like I think.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So concerned about what his qualifications are, because, whatever they are, he's a fucking abuser. trying to figure out like the relationships here.

Cameron: Oh, my God! And I've been! I think me and Dylan. We're also like what year residence is Wren like trying to crack that code.

Deepa: It's an age thing we're trying to figure out how old these fucking adults are.

Cameron: Give us something to hold on to. Yeah.

Deepa: Exactly, or like some sense, if it's realistic that they have the authority that they have. I think that's there with Ezra, too, right? Like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Because he's a teacher, and because Wren later does a lot of shit at Bradley that he definitely couldn't do as a Med student. But he could probably do as a resident, psychiatry resident

Cameron: I was like thinking about not to go back to Wren, but like him like picking Spencer up, giving her a ride. She's sobbing and like comforting her. And just being like. I have that effect on women, and just being like the shit you are fucking doing in your fucking professional life like what the fuck.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, his whole like. He took his whole like self deprecating British thing to this like a level of manipulation that.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I mean, he always has. But it was really clear in that scene. And yeah, like you, said he, he's like working with people who are like psychiatrically incarcerated, like like.

Cameron: Fuck.

Cameron: Oh, but on the upside Mike is in therapy and interested in pizza again.

Deepa: Yes, yes. Mike seems to be yeah. Seems to be doing better, and.

Cameron: Yeah, me, too.

Deepa: Another happy thing was, I really liked the conversation between Mona, not Mona Maya and Emily.

Cameron: Oh, yeah, me, too.

Deepa: It was very sweet. And Maya being like I want to get to know this Emily, and I hope I I think I know I'll like this, Emily, but I hope she still likes me.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: She will Maya

Cameron: She will

Deepa: She does, but it's only been like 2 months, like, yeah, she went through a lot of shit in those 2 months. But it's not been that long.

Cameron: Yeah.

Cameron: Oh, I love Hanna just trying to hang out with them, and Emily's like, no, please go. We're trying to chat.

Deepa: Is this the date? Hanna is so supportive.

Cameron: We got someone calling Mona pretty eyes again.

Deepa: We did. Yes, and I did like the I like the Mona End scene.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: The thing with Therapist Anne

Deepa: Mona does have pretty eyes. It’s Funny that that's what people call her, generally, I guess. But.

Cameron: Yeah

Deepa: okay. So switching over to the Halloween episode. And I just wanted to start by, you know, naming that Emily in this episode. Wears a what fucking Noel Kahn calls a quote unquote, sexy Indian costume, an appropriative indigenous costume, and I just wanted to start with talking about the violence of that of sexualizing native women In a show that is about a missing white girl. And just like the context like that. 

Deepa: And so basically, I wanted to start us off by like framing a little bit around missing and murdered indigenous people, and like this is, gonna be long. But I promise it will loop back around to PLL. So yeah. So first of all, I mean you may know this already, I'm sure a lot of our listeners know this, but just to like reiterate some of the like ways that Indigenous people of all genders are like 80 to 85% of indigenous people of all genders have experienced violence of some sort, and for native women in, I think North America, or maybe just the United States for the Stat. Murder is the 3rd leading leading cause of death for native women. More than half of women have experienced sexual violence, and indigenous women are twice as likely as white women to be raped, and 3 times as likely to be murdered.

Deepa: So yeah, again, just sort of like putting that in the framework of this show that is really obsessed with what media in general tends to be obsessed with when it comes to missing girls right? And it's like blonde white girls most of the time. But then I also wanted to think about this in the context of like Pennsylvania, specifically because I was. Looking into whether Pennsylvania has any specific information on MMIP.

And I found out that there is not a lot of data which is a problem in general, right? Like, there's not a lot of data, but part of the reason there's no data is that Pennsylvania is one of 13 States in the US With 0 federally recognized or State recognized tribes which I'll just say, like, obviously, this isn't uniquely like Western thing, but coming from a Western state that's fucking wild to me. 0. And it's 0. Yeah. So so you know, the Lenape people are the people who are indigenous to Pennsylvania, also indigenous to parts of New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, Southern New York. But it's commonly thought that most of them were forcibly removed from Pennsylvania. You know so a lot of the Lenape people were forcibly removed to the Midwest, but there were some who stayed, and they had to hide their identity for safety. And now a lot of those folks are trying to, you know connect back with that identity. So there are State recognized Lenape tribes in Delaware and New Jersey, but the Lenape nation of Pennsylvania, which is made up primarily of folks living in the Philadelphia area is fighting for State recognition, and so far they have not had success.

Deepa: so there's not a lot of statistics either, right? Because they don't have it enrolled. They they don't like, they. They have enrolled members, but they don't. They have enrolled members. But that's not necessarily all of the you know people who who would want to enroll if they could. But even though Pennsylvania didn't have any recognized tribes. They had the first residential school in the US. Yeah at least, what we think of as residential schools in the sense that it was the first government run off reservation school. It was called the Carlisle Indian Industrial School.

Cameron: Oh, I've heard of that one.

Deepa: Yup. It was the flagship, one.

Cameron: fucking flagship, residential school

Deepa: Yes, yes, oh, jeez exactly.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Was created in the late 18 hundreds by a military colonel who had previously been in charge of forced assimilation on native prisoners of war. And was bringing that to Carlisle. So it was like from the beginning, intensely tied up with the military. It was like a former. The building was a former military barracks. It appears to have been administered by the what was then called the War Department. Initially, before being transferred to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. It was like run with a quasi military regime, and it was, and its aim was also military in the sense that, like the forced assimilation of the children, but also that the children were in some ways hostages, because the US Was recently at war with a lot of their tribal nations, and so like taking their children, was a way of keeping them in line. Right? So the children there came from 140, more than 140 different tribes, primarily from Lakota, Ojibwe, Cherokee, Apache, Cheyenne, Alaska native, Iroquois, Seneca, and Sioux, and Oneida tribes

Deepa: and like with you know all the residential schools that we hear about, like the children, had their hair cut when they arrived, their names changed, their clothes changed into military dress. They had to stop speaking their languages and learn English. Their families were forced into giving up the children, and they had 0 communication with them. This was a fact that was filed. The children would work as domestic servants in farms or businesses during the summer, including on the farms of Quaker families, which in my mind are like the Quakers were abolitionists, and like what the fuck. But of course, you're gonna like use enslaved native labor, right? Oh, anyway.

Deepa: So yeah. So Carlile Indian school operated for 39 years, until it became considered irrelevant during World War one and then, when it was closed in 1918, the building was transferred back to the army. There are the graves of 186 children there, and there's, you know, a lot of local work around that area to like create a museum for remembrance and accountability. but like it, was also the model for more than 300 other schools in the US. And for Canada's residential school program, which I didn't realize. Yeah, I thought Canada's was first

Cameron: No, they're usually a little bit behind us.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I guess I thought, because also, Canada's was mostly religiously run, too. Right? So I didn't really connect it until I read that was like looking into it more deeply. So. anyway, so like bringing this all back to wearing a quote, unquote native costume.

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: Is like taking on something that native people themselves were not allowed to have like their hair and clothes, and like and then sexualizing it in this way, in the context of like that context is true across the United States, but especially in this place, where, like Pennsylvania has erased a lot of its actual Indigenous people from erase both in the sense of like they're not there, or just like they're hidden, had to be hidden, even though they have this history of like residential schools, and that, like policing of native people, this show erases its native actor. Right like, does not engage with the indigeneity of an actual person who is there. But instead, like, puts Emily in this fucking quote, unquote costume. And like, Yeah, that's just that's violence, right? And and yeah, and and then having to see like the way that they frame this right like Emily, is dancing with her white boyfriend, who is dressed up as a cowboy right. and her options apparently were sexy cop.

Cameron: Sexy cop or Indian girl quote unquote.

Deepa: Indian Girl. Yeah.

Deepa: incredibly horrifying and infuriating.

Cameron: Ugh.

Cameron: thank you for bringing the Pennsylvania specificness in that And you said this. But I just want to say this again, like the entire show, like so many of the dead girl shows, are about a white girl where it's the whole show is centered around that around what happened? Who knows what? What was she doing? when that's what happens in real life? Right?

Deepa: Yeah And and especially like you know, I think you and I have talked about this a good amount, because you've I think you know more about this than I do, but just the like narrative of like human trafficking in Our popular culture and narratives around true crime, right, are always focused on white women and white girls as victims when like. what's actually happening is yeah, that's actually a reality for Indigenous people

Cameron: For so many, for so many people, and like the way we've constructed like sex trafficking, or like those things to be these like outsider forces. Stranger danger, you know. It's like it's over the years. It takes different, you know, names and stuff, but it remains the same like panic. But it's like these, outside forces. These predators are going to snatch your white children. Yeah, yeah. and that's just like, not yeah. A thing like, yes, it happens Random things happen all the time.

Deepa: Yeah but not Systematically. 

Cameron: It’s not Systematic violence. It's not like people being in like precarious situations having to like, yeah

Deepa: And and it. And it's used to enforce public safety narratives quote unquote, right? Like, that's what it's that's what its function is. Its function is, it's not actually about care for like, I mean, there's some degree of care for the while women and girls, but like primarily.

Cameron: Some

Deepa: Primarily. It's to make you afraid of this, so that you'll support, you know like carceral system

Cameron: Yeah you know like victim’s rights things that are just like about like harsher punishments. Yeah, yeah, like, it's not about you don't even care about victims. You just want? Like, yeah, more carcerality, more punishment, more.

Deepa: Control.

Cameron: Control yeah.

Deepa: of Primarily poor Black and Indigenous, and brown folks so.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. And I think you know that that like, it was interesting to have that in this episode that also plays on that before Ali's actually missing, but plays on that idea of her facing violence as a trick right like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And like. We do know in this show that Ali is someone who is frequently like has grown up with this constant abuse from different people. The thing is that they're people in her life, not strangers, right? 

Cameron: Which is what typically happens.

Deepa: and you know, I think for most of the show, there isn't necessarily the assumption that it was a stranger who like killed her. But in this episode it is kind of right. It's like, Oh, this random man like he took me right like. Not supposed like. She doesn't say she knows who it. You know what I mean like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It is actually playing on that exact trope of like random violence and sexualized violence. And it's a joke right like.

Cameron: And it's a joke, but then it's not a joke.

Deepa: Right? Right? Exactly. Exactly. It's a joke. But she also like actually like.

Cameron: It wasn't Noel Kahn, so it was a stranger.

Deepa: Yes, yes.

Cameron: So there you go!

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, I just think like. I don't know what a good segue is. I love Halloween so much. I just think like there's it just has such a like potential for people to just do like the most fucked up shit in costume like making light of things like being racist as hell. Yeah, like.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And it's it's so disappointing always. Yeah.

Deepa: Because it's this combined thing of like costumes and fear. Right? It's that intersection right? Like we do costumes and other times. Sometimes I don't know. We just have a costume party, but like Halloween's about the like the fear of it all too right, and the horror.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: and you know, horror! I feel like horror as a genre struggles with that hot, too.

Cameron: Well personal anecdote. I think this was like 2014, maybe 2015. I was in the Castro Halloween. Yep, I don't think you were there.

Deepa: Okay. probably not.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: It was 2014. I may have been there, but it was 2015, and I don't think I would have been there.

Cameron: I think it was 2015 cause I think I was dressed as Buffy.

Deepa: That that checks out.

Cameron: And I was at a club in the Castro like a gay club in the Castro, and just like overcome with my disappointment of these gay people wearing fucked up outfits, you know. And so I did a little thing in which I just like got some napkins from the bartender.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And they wrote like you are racist, and just sort of like started handing them out like I'm upset like I just don't think like.

Deepa: Incredible. I’ve never heard this story

Cameron: You haven’t?

Deepa: Oh, my God! Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. People are fucked up.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. I love halloween

Deepa: Oh, I did want to say one other thing.

Cameron: Oh, yeah. About.

Deepa: Emily, which is that, like the specific positioning of the one brown main character, right.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Because I think that's their way of like being like. Oh, we can get away with it because Emily's not white, right like which like And again, I'm like caught in this position of like both feeling and like, it's really fucked up that your one character of color is being put in these positions. and also like it's still real.

Deepa: I think the conversation about whether immigrants to the US are settlers is a very complicated one. and I will say I just think of myself as a settler being an Asian American immigrant who came here, not because, like whose family came here, not because we were in any way like needed to. Right like we weren't refugees. So we weren't even economically like forced out or anything. But whatever whatever you you want to position Emily, as she's still not a person indigenous to like Turtle Island. And it's yeah. It just angers me so much and makes me want to talk about still, how people of color in the US Who are not indigenous are complicit in settler colonialism, whether you think of them as like literally settlers or not, like. We still participate in these structures, and we still reinforce them through our own, like, I mean, through many different things right through our own land owning through our own, like. yeah, like creation of like spaces that are still dispossessing indigenous people without like creating spaces that are together. Right? Like.

Deepa: so, yeah, it just made me think a lot again about like and Asian American, specifically like complicity in settler colonialism

Cameron: And I think that kind of connects with what you're we were talking about at some point in season one about having making Emily's dad like a military dad and making them a military family. And then Pam works for the police and just doing that with their characters of color, but also that that is something like, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, totally. And it's like, and it. And it like contributes to the violence of this episode. Because it's both like, yeah, we're doing that thing again. We're like using a person of color as our get out of jail free card, but also but also, like Emily, is doing this, coming from a fucking military family like that's the context of this, like her dad is out there like, dispossessing other brown people of their land and lives. So, yeah, thank you for tying that back in, because that was in my head as I was talking about, especially like the military connections with them with the residential schools. But yeah, it's definitely all tied up in there. And yeah. but again, very real and like. I don't think I said this on this podcast before, but I have a member of my family who's in the military. And I feel very complicated about it. So it's definitely real. But it is horrifying.

Cameron: thank you for doing that research.

Deepa: I just felt so like, yeah, I just like felt like I knew that there was something I was angry about. But I wanted to know more, to understand it even better. So yeah. 

Cameron: So if we've shared with our listeners one of our rules. When we lived together we had some house rules and one of them was no fun facts, only infuriating facts.

Deepa: Cameron hates fun facts.

Cameron: I do. 

Deepa: We haven't talked about things that you hate in a long time. So just here's here's another one. Listeners. Cameron hates fun facts.

Cameron: Hate em

Deepa: but she's okay with hearing infuriating facts. So we can be angry together.

Cameron: I love em. I want more. I want all of them.

Cameron: Oh, my gosh!

Deepa: This Literally came out of me like asking you one day like, Oh, I have something I need to share. But you hate fun facts. Can I tell you this infuriating fact?

Cameron: I was like, yes, please. Oh, gosh! Such a hater!

Cameron: Should we dive into the episode?

Deepa: Yes, yes, let's.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: I do, like the Lady Gaga of it all is fun.like 2008. It was so 2008.

Deepa: So 2008. And it's funny cause the show is only like 2 or 3 years later, so, like the nostalgia already.

Cameron: And I was like, really silly. I was like, I, okay.

Deepa: Kind of appreciated it because it's long ago now.

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: Is funny, like what.

Cameron: Was like.

Deepa: Lady Gaga wasn't popular in 2010?

Cameron: No, but like when that that CD came out.

Deepa: Totally, totally.

Cameron: Like that was, that was a different time.

Deepa: It was. You're right. It was a different time. I appreciated when they played just dance, and

Cameron: The whole episode. Basically they played Just Dance.

Deepa: Exactly.

Cameron: Oh,

Deepa: Ali's interaction with Jetta when she meets her, is so flirty.

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: I didn't remember that.

Cameron: This the whole situation, with Jenna and Ali and Emily.

Deepa: Emily.

Cameron: Is so charged.

Deepa: I didn't remember that at all, and like, when the first conversation happens with Ali, I was just like Oh, you know, I know we're supposed to read this as like her just being subtly threatening which she is, for sure.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Deepa: But I was like, you know, this is just part of our Ali is gay agenda, but they don't like actually they actually address it when it comes to Emily.

Cameron: it's also so 2008 to have like a katy Perry, I kissed a girl and I liked it reference.

Deepa: Oh, absolutely, absolutely like you have to frame queerness that way. You can't do it any other way in that time. But like also like, think back on that time that was true. Right like.

Cameron: I know.

Deepa: The reason that was such a big think like, I don't know if listeners are not our age. You probably all are our age, at least the people that we know who listen to this.

Cameron: Imagine they're In their early thirties early to mid thirties.

Deepa: Yeah.

Deepa: But like, if you if you are younger, or weren’t there like that's why I guess the girl was such a big deal because it did like have this whole like narrative around like queerness and representation that like in retrospect, is just absurd. But I don't even mean it's absurd to think of it as a queer song. I think, like the like The back and forth about whether it was or wasn't right like was absurd. It doesn't really matter.

Cameron: But it mattered then.

Deepa: It really did. It really did. And I do think you're right, too, that, like Lady Gaga has like, I don't think Lady Gaga had come out as bi in when she first started right like I like, so that. And she definitely hadn't like done born this way yet so like that was also like a different piece of it

Cameron: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, I was not queer. In 2008.

Deepa: Cameron was an ally.

Cameron: An ally

Deepa: I didn’t know you in 2008, but I knew you a few years later. and you were still not. You were still not queer. Oh, my God!

Cameron: Yeah. Oh, man! So much happened in this episode. It's actually bananas.

Deepa: It is. Yeah.

Deepa: Since I already mentioned the Jenna and Ali meeting. We're correct. Jenna did just move here, so none of this makes any sense, because, like literally, 2 episodes ago, they're talking as if she's lived here for many years, but she's lived here for 2 years, like when the show starts. She's been here for 2 years, and it's only a few months after started in the timeline. There were some other timeline things that like were confusing me. So I did. That's why I looked up the PLL Wiki's timeline and found some baffling things.

Cameron: Great, hit us with it!

Deepa: Okay. So they give us a date at the beginning of the episode, which is great, right? Like. So we know which year it is. It's October 2008, which means it's their freshman year. Ali disappears the next September Labor Day, 2009, and the show starts in September, 2010.

Deepa: All that. Sure and then there's yeah. Then there's the Jenna and her mom moving here and like it's very silly, because, yeah, they talk as if she's been here forever. But the timeline also told me that apparently the liars are all supposed to have only become friends a month ago. At this point. like in September of their freshman year.

Cameron: What?

Deepa: This is the earliest we're seeing of their friendship, and they've just become friends which doesn't make any sense to me. With Spencer and Ali, in my mind, went back further, like I feel like they do. At least their families definitely knew each other earlier, because obviously they're related.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But even the others like a month?

Cameron: I mean, shit can move fast when you're like in High school, but like that's fast.

Deepa: That seems really fast. Yeah there's also the whole thing of like media does this all the time. But like I always just think it's funny when, like the popular girl who runs the school as a freshman.

Cameron: Like that doesn't make sense.

Deepa: No, it doesn't like you might be within your class, but not like of every, you know what I mean.

Cameron: So.

Deepa: That’s not what freshman year is like and if you were like like for me, like the the girls who were the popular girls in freshman year were mostly dating older people so like not super older, but like dating juniors or seniors. Which meant that they didn't hang out with the rest of the freshmen, that often.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So it was one baffling timeline thing, the other baffling timeline thing. Is that yeah. So this is the earliest for seeing them, which means, like all of the other Ali flashbacks we've had are the next summer, so like.

Cameron: Oh, they're after this?

Deepa: They're after this. Yeah.

Cameron: Oh

Deepa: They're the summer before she disappeared. So like.

Cameron: Oh, that's interesting. Okay.

Deepa: Scene at the lake, the library, Great Expectations is probably during the school year, but all most of the other things are either like later that year or the next summer, like right before she disappeared also, if Aria finds out about Byron now, that means she kept the secret for 2 years, not 1 year. In My mind He takes them off to Iceland, like pretty soon after she figures it out, but no.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: She spends all of freshman year knowing, and then we.

Cameron: Oh Aria

Deepa: Anyway, those are my timeline things cause Once I started reading the timeline, I was just kept reading it. So it's like what is happening.

Cameron: Thank you. I did give Byron worst parent because what the fuck.

Deepa: Tom. Tom came close for me, because Hanna confirmed that he was MIA For 2 years.

Cameron: 2 years.

Deepa: But then Byron made his speech to Aria about why she should lie for him.

Cameron: He was like I. What you saw was an ending like it's over he like. Didn't even say like , god! 

Deepa: Wasn't gonna be over if she hadn't seen you.

Cameron: No, and like it just wasn't like you're already like it was just a bananas thing to say, basically like, not like, Oh, I fucked up like I I don't know something normal.

Deepa: Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And just like the manipulation of being like, I hope you won't tell her your mom, her, your mom, for her sake.

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: Not, for it's not for my sake. It's for her sake.

Cameron: No, but I don't. I don't even care. I am just.

Cameron: Oh, God!

Deepa: I'm sorry. Aria like yeah, like she says she's not. She doesn't think she could ever forgive him, and that makes sense, because it's not just that he, fucking, did this. It's the way he's acted afterwards about it.

Cameron: So weird.

Deepa: Like. Why would she ever forgive them? I mean, I know families are complicated and we can forgive people for shit even if yeah, because you love them. But still it's just like it's such a horrifying scene.

Cameron: uhuh

Deepa: And it made me feel so sad for her.

Cameron: Yeah And he just like in her room, too. So it's not like it's I don't know it. Just like feels like he's in her space. And yeah, it's like.

Deepa: And you just actually, I feel like he and Wren have some things in common about their like sad sack manipulation, except like Wren, is like 

Cameron: British

Deepa: Trying to make it into a comedy. That too. This is so random. But when he said British and I was just thinking about that scene in Notting Hill where they all have a conversation about how terrible their lives are as a contest. Do you remember what I am talking about?

Cameron: It was boring.

Deepa: It was so boring. But that scene said a lot I think about a certain like class of white British people.

Cameron: Oh, my God! that’s funny

Deepa: So that's Wren. Whereas Byron is American, so he's just a sad sack he's not funny about or not trying to be funny.

Cameron: No, it's just sad.

Cameron: Meredith is reading some James Joyce.

Deepa: I tried to look into this. I could not figure out what she was reading, because it just says James Joyce, in big letters.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But I can't actually see the title of the book or the picture very well, so I did a lot of searching, I promise you could not figure out if it was actually a James Joyce book, or it might have been a biography.

Cameron: Oh! Like thoughts on James Joyce.

Deepa: Or something, or like collected writings of James Joyce so I don’t have any literary analysis. I’m sorry

Cameron: I think you did enough research for this episode. But I'm glad you did try to.

Deepa: My only anecdote about James Joyce right now is that my dad recently tried to read a portrait of the artist as a young man, which I don’t Know if you've read any James Joyce.

Cameron: I have not.

Deepa: Don't!

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: I liked that. And so that's his like, that's like a novella, basically and then he has a short story collection called Dubliners that are like both before he gets into like really modernism. So they're not like they're not like completely stream of consciousness and like confusing. Basically. But my dad tried to read it, and he couldn't get through it, because it was too confusing for him. And he but I he just kept trying to stick with it, because it's a classic. And I kept asking him, like, you're so you're not enjoying this. Why are you reading this? And he's like, because it's like literature. That's how I used to think Cameron.

Cameron: It's okay. I don't know if you know this, but like we live in a society. that's what they want you to think.

Deepa: Oh, I know. That is why I read James Joyce. I did try to read Ulysses. I didn't get very far. Anyway. So maybe Meredith is reading something by James Joyce, or maybe she's reading biography.

Cameron: Yeah. Shoes off on the couch. Just feet out, feet out

Deepa: So we started this episode with some interesting thematic stuff, because we started with the like Ali telling the twins story.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Which I think is like probably supposed to be like a shout out to book fans at this point right. In the books. Ali's a twin, and like probably we're supposed to think that it's about her right. But.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But it is funny that we have a million twins in this show, and Alison is not one of them.

Cameron: Right? Question about the twin.

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01:24:07.120 --> 01:24:07.500

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: That girl is the same girl from the-no? it's a different girl??

Deepa: Finish your sentence

Cameron: For the audience. Okay, I was asking Deepa if those twins from the beginning of Episode 13. One of them is the same from a dark ride, the ghost train episode, who? Where? Ashley is visited by maybe a ghost child who looks exactly the same as those girls, but they’re different! 

Deepa: No, I looked. I looked it up. I looked it up. Not the same kids.

Cameron: What the fuck.

Deepa: I'm so glad you brought this up because I also thought that that obviously, that's.

Cameron: They have the exact same vibe.

Deepa: They have completely the same vibes, completely the same vibes. And they're not. Yeah. They are completely different child actors

Cameron: Damn

Deepa: But I'm glad we were on the same page about it.

Cameron: I I just didn't even look it up. I'm like, I'm right. Thank you for once again doing the research.

Deepa: Yeah, no, exactly same vibes. And like it would make a lot of sense cause like then it would be like, Oh, this like call back right and like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like is this child real? But no

Cameron: Creepy story come to life.

Deepa: Yeah, and we never get an answer on that. Maybe the child is from Ravenswood.

Cameron: Oh, good call, good point.

Deepa: Wandered over to Rosewood and went back we also. So when we leave that scene we also get our first mention of Radley. There's a car parked outside that, says Radley Sanatorium on it. Yeah.

Cameron: I missed that.

Deepa: Yeah, well, I was. Think I think I noticed it because I was also thinking about how Ali's scary story is our first mention of psychiatric incarceration, too. And again, like, I think that was like in my mind that was like, Oh, here's like a, you know, nod to the books. Because that's obviously going to be a huge narrative. But I don't even think we've mentioned anything like institutionalization related, and we certainly haven't mentioned Radley before. So.

Cameron: Radley. Yeah.

Deepa: And there's obviously a lot about like the tie up of like psychiatry and Halloween and horror, too. But we can probably save that for what we actually get like Radley.

Cameron: Yeah, we we can do a deeper, deeper cut, deeper dive.

Deepa: Whenever we talk about the ghost rain episode, we do need to delve into the fact that the song Adam Lambert sings is called Cuckoo.

Cameron: Cuckoo! Something about a straitjacket.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Something about like a-

Deepa: Show is so obsessed with psychiatry. 

Cameron: It really is. Yeah 

Deepa: That is taken from the books right? And it's also like part of a genre of horror that yeah. but it's so blatant.

Cameron: yeah, we'll talk more about Radley, there'll be more time for Radley.

Deepa: Definitely.

Cameron: Oh, man, yeah, it was like we got that little vignette. And there's just a lot of like spooky music.

Deepa: Yeah, I I was just like, I wish so many things about this episode didn't suck because we love Halloween episodes in general.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: There were some fun elements of that like Ali telling the scary story, was probably my favorite Ali moment to be honest.

Cameron: And stabbing the pumpkin! There was so much Ali in this. like, we haven't gotten a lot because she's been allegedly dead this whole time. Yeah. But there was just so much.

Deepa: This was an Ali episode, for sure.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Definitely like, it's definitely interesting to introduce her like this when we've just seen a really like softer, positive side of Ali in the previous episode, you know. Because. yeah, she is. She is doing a lot of shit in this episode.

Cameron: She is.

Deepa: Playing, everyone.

Cameron: Just got some shit to say to literally everyone.

Deepa: Really, like.

Cameron: She makes like a sheep fucking joke.

Deepa: Does she?  I missed that.

Cameron: When Noel Khan and friends roll up in car. And she's like all this testosterone, and not a sheep in sight.

Deepa: What? I missed, that.

Cameron: She's bananas. She's just saying shit.

Deepa: Saying Shit! Oh, my God! This was both an Emily and Ali moment in the sense of a like their romantic tension moment, but also just a silly moment when she tells Emily that she's shy on the streets, and sexy in the sheets.

Cameron: Sexy in the sheets.

Deepa: Ali you're kind of embarrassing.

Cameron: That’s a little embarrassing!

Cameron: yeah. And it's like a lot centered around Emily, not having sex, but everyone thinking she has sex. And then people being surprised because she's a prude or Hanna was like she's a prude.

Deepa: Which is like that's definitely like, I guess by the time we start the show, if she's had the same boyfriend for 2 years, then people don't necessarily think of her as a prude anymore. I don't know but like, and especially if there's rumors gone around. But that is like an interesting like, I know it's supposed to hint at queerness, but, like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: or closetedness, but it's still an interesting like perception of Emily that I hadn't really thought of before. Like. I guess she's very like good, like. well behaved, and comes from a strict family. But like yeah, I don't know.

Deepa: We get our introduction to Wilden's background.

Cameron: Ew, yeah.

Deepa: So gross, so gross, but like I have to say like, Wilden, the actor playing him is really good at like like he, he turns on a dime from being like friendly to threatening.

Cameron: Threatening. Oh, my! Gosh, yeah!

Deepa: Actually really impressive.

Cameron: I know. That's why I think you're like we would love. We would enjoy Maybe, if the actor would willing to unpack some.

Deepa: Yes, tell us about your craft.

Cameron: Tell us about being a cop like playing it. It was really good.

Deepa: You're really good at it. So.

Cameron: You're really good at being terrifying.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Like saying like cause. Okay. he, Ashley's wasted. He gives her a ride home. Yeah. And then he shows up the next day.

Deepa: Shows up the next day.

Cameron: To like check in, and then she's like, No, we're good, and he's like, well, you gotta watch yourself on the streets. People are unpredictable. Wild. 

Deepa: Completely wild, and he's like he does seem like genuinely like he seems. He seems creepy in the sense that he's like abusing his power, but he doesn't actually seem threatening until that point right like demeanor-wise, I mean. Yeah. And then suddenly he is and it's like, woof, yeah. 

Cameron: And he's at the party.

Deepa: Oh, God! I forgot about that! So weird.

Cameron: Ew

Deepa: Also, because whenever it is that Ali has a thing with him, I think, is also the next summer, you know, and like wherever they travel to? Where do they go?

Cameron: cape May no?

Deepa: Cape May? 

Cameron: No, 

Deepa: That’s where Jenna wants to go.

Cameron: okay.

Deepa: I don't know Pennsylvania so I can't speculate on this.

Cameron: I've only been once. Oh, with the boat. 

Deepa: Wherever.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: Wherever it is that they all vacation. And like yeah, and he's there.

Deepa: Yeah. So that's the next summer. But he's going to high school parties. It's weird, or like maybe college parties by that time, I guess. cause like it's Noel Kahn’s brothers party then. it's kind of weird that they combine those to be honest.

Cameron: It seemed like a bad idea.

Deepa: I wouldn't wanna have a party with my like much younger siblings, friends first, that like transitions into my party, I don't know.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: I guess maybe their age difference Isn't that big? No, but Noel Kahn is a freshman and his. If his brother's in college, he's at least like 4 or 5 years older.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Anyway.

Cameron: Spencer is such a nerd and like, I know, we know this because her costume is like the most heinous thing we've seen in a long time, but like she has these like glasses.

Deepa: I thought they were cute.

Cameron: They are cute, but it's just like such a different iteration of her.

Deepa: Yes, cause she's like she's like nerdy, but like bashful nerdy, and not like intense intense. I stayed up all night figuring this thing out Nerdy, which is what she ends up being.

Cameron: Right. She's this is like, Oh.

Deepa: Is Ali's death, supposed to have like, hardened her like? What? What changed.

Cameron: I guess.  yeah, we got some like interesting Melissa and Ali interactions, too.

Deepa: And Melissa and Spencer. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. Like Ali is like, no, your sister like she puts on a good show. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And Spencer's like, no, she's just trying to survive this family.

Deepa: It's yeah. I mean, it was kind of wild to see that to see Melissa being so like friendly and supportive to her supportive quote, unquote.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: So like Ali framing it that way, did make me go like, Oh, okay, hmm! That like fits better with my narrative of where Spencer and Melissa are at this point.

Cameron: Is Ali getting that from Ian, or like? How is she like? What is she picking up on.

Deepa: I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think she and Ian are doing anything.

Cameron: Oh, she's just flirting with him.

Deepa: flirting, yeah.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: I mean. I don't know that for sure, but I just sort of suspect.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So yeah, I don't know where she's getting that from, but maybe I sew chaos right like create division.

Cameron: True. She's just like she doesn't actually care about you.

Deepa: Exactly, and she manages to use that to like get something over Spencer, right? So it works

Cameron: That shit was so funny.

Deepa: It's so funny, because also, I'm like, I think Ali's lying.

Cameron: I think she's lying.

Deepa: I think she just made up some ballots.

Cameron: Through like, and wrote like Aria's name on it, or something right. Fucking wild.

Deepa: Spencer didn't even look at them.

Cameron: Spencer was just like terrified, just threw him in the fire.

Deepa: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah Cause yeah, Spencer's so like, Spencer's not chaotic.

Cameron: Oh, she's not.

Deepa: She's like driven but not chaotic about it.

Cameron: She's just like, I would really like to be student council, president, or whatever she's running for class president.

Deepa: Maybe having to cheat at it is like the beginning of her chaos. I'm trying to find an origin story for Spencer here, so I don't know if she needs one, but.

Cameron: So this is 2 years from

Deepa: 2 years from beginning of the show. Yeah.

Cameron: I mean, a lot can happen, you know.

Deepa: True. High school. Yeah.

Cameron: High School's wild. Yeah.

Deepa: Freshman year to junior year. Yeah, that's a big difference.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: If you have, you know.

Cameron: Trauma.

Deepa: Yeah.

Deepa: but I do imagine I do think this is probably the first time she does like cheat at something to get.

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: Her family's approval. Right? Like, I think.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Maybe this is like a more beaten down Spencer, because she in the past hasn't gotten that like you know what I mean. So like. So that's my origin story.

Cameron: I like it. I like it.

Deepa: Ali ignites the chaos that was probably within.

Cameron: Lit a Little Flame.

Deepa: Exactly

Deepa: spencer's glasses are cute. I think Mona's glasses are even cuter.

Cameron: Oh, my God! And can we talk about Mona's Halloween costume?

Cameron: Incredible!

Deepa: Incredible! How does Alison not recognize her?

Cameron: She's Mona. Obviously, I guess you just like don't look at her because she's a nerd.

Deepa: But you like torment her. You don't like Notice how the person you're tormenting looks like? incredible also adding to all the sexual tension. There, right like.

Cameron: Yeah. Ali's like, Oh or no- Jenna's like, Oh.

Deepa: Jenna's like, Oh, yeah, I think, like Ali is like, I think Ali is like in competition mode. But Jenna's definitely like.

Cameron: Jenna was like, Oh, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: It's funny. Yeah, just people being like, huh, yeah.

Deepa: I guess Jenna like sparks something in everyone

Cameron: She's just dancing. 

Deepa: I know. I know. I guess I was gonna say, like she's hot. But is she that hot? But like she like the dancing scene, was good, I think.

Cameron: Yeah. she's making eyes. She's making moves, you know. Yeah.

Cameron: When they were creeping in the house trying to save Ali, I was just like God. Why does Noel Kahn have to get decapitated?

Deepa: Really, it's really sad.

Cameron: It's really sad and just like not necessary.

Deepa: I think I don't know like he does some creepy shit at various points, but like that bad compared to a lot of people on this show, did he really need to be decapitated. I don't know. I did appreciate some of the like Ali and Noel background, because I always appreciate learning more about their friendship. And they're like definitely friends, right like but I guess she's used to scheming with him. So maybe when she needed someone to help her out with like hiding. She went to Noel Kahn

Cameron: She was like, hey? But he didn't show up for her this time.

Deepa: No, it's true, it's true. Hopefully, he gets more reliable when she's like on the run.

Cameron: God. so everyone is zombie baby.

Deepa: Yes, don't know why, but sure.

Cameron: Lucas is zombie baby at some point, but we don't know who is zombie baby in the attack.

Deepa: No, I guess I assumed it was Mona, but I don't know for sure.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: Yeah, I.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I assumed she had changed into zombie baby. I guess I didn't get a little good look at like the height of that zombie.

Cameron: Know me, either. 

Deepa: You're the one who notices height.

Cameron: Like in relation to me.

Deepa: Fair enough.

Deepa: Yeah, I yeah. I don't think it was Lucas. 

Cameron: I don’t think so either.

Deepa: Because I think they showed us the thing that he did. And I think that's the only thing he did right calls her a bitch or something. I don't remember.

Cameron: Yeah

Deepa: Also he was clearly stressed out just by doing. I don't know if you can go through it.

Cameron: I don't think he could choreograph, or even yeah.

Deepa: And how would he have known about it, you know.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Mona's. Mona's got the research.

Cameron: Eye’s everywhere

Deepa: What Ali’s planning. The whole like quote unquote prank. It's also weird how Ali ends it cause it's kind of anticlimactic.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I guess it’s supposed to like. I guess she's not like she. She says she does it as a joke, but I guess it's more like control over them more importantly than it's supposed to be like that, it being funny to her. So maybe that's why. But it's still kind of weird.

Cameron: It's really weird. And like she's very focused on like actually counting on people and like.

Deepa: Right, right.

Cameron: That being like a, that, they would show up for her if she needed it. And she says that at another moment about someone else. And yeah, I don't know if that's like her, just like being in like such a bad situation, trying to like figure like, I don't know.

Deepa: I mean, I guess I guess if you, if we buy that, they've only been friends for like a month, and she is already getting this already in her life has been like, surveilled and like creeped on by older guys, her brother's best friend like not my best friend, brother's friends, and like all of that, contributes to her vulnerability, and then she's getting threatened. like. I guess that sort of makes sense. That's that's where she's coming from, right in wanting to know if she can trust them. These like people She's like.

Cameron: Just met.

Deepa: And take it on as her like project to make them cool. You know.

Cameron: Yeah. And then like her, not telling them makes sense. If it's been a month.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Like we're supposed to be like. Oh, it's weird! She's not telling them. But no, it's not.

Deepa: It's been a month, apparently.

Cameron: A month.

Deepa: The scene where she hides the note in the doll's head was like, actually, I think, one of the most like telling Ali scenes right, because we've heard about her having these hiding places and putting things away. But like, we start to actually see her fear around it, and how it's impacting her like that felt like one of the truest scenes.

Cameron: Yeah, and aria has a doll right in her possession?

Deepa: I think so. Yes, yes, and she doesn't know.

Cameron: I wanted her to crack it open.

Deepa: I do want to crack it open, but also like I guess I guess it tells them that are. What does it tell them other than that Ali was getting A messages before. I guess that's important. Yeah, I guess that's pretty important.

Cameron: Is that this doll we think.

Deepa: I think so.

Cameron: Okay. I thought it could just be a doll with a random note in it. I don't know.

Deepa: I don't understand what you're saying. But okay, I think it's the same doll.

Cameron: You think it's this doll? Okay?

Deepa: Yeah, cause Jason gives like a box of like Alison’s stuff that he found.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So presumably it was in a hiding spot. I just.

Cameron: Thought there could be many dolls with many notes inside.

Deepa: True. Okay, good point. Good point. Ali did hide things everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. But I do think they find this note inside

Cameron: Okay, and.

Deepa: I think I'm I'm talking myself into why it's important, which is that they don't know, and don't suspect that A existed before Alison’s disappearance.

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: So probably contributes to them, thinking that A is the one who murdered Ali.

Deepa: Oh! Speaking of Lucas, we should just acknowledge the like. Oh. Horrifying intersexism, but it's just like they keep like drilling it in right like. And then, like he has a like a moment of like I guess, shared sympathy with Mona about it. And that kind of like frustrates me, too, that Mon Then I mean, I guess that's the whole narrative right like Mona went from being like. you know downtrodden to mean girl herself. But it's just like it's fucked up, you know, like, why do you have to continue that legacy of Ali’s? In like becoming, taking over Ali's position, or whatever.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It just sucks.

Cameron: It sucks.

Deepa: Oh, did we talk about best, parent?

Deepa: I struggled.

Cameron: I gave it to Veronica.

Deepa: Okay? What if? Just.

Cameron: Cause she could like be in the Room with them, and I thought that was nice. but yeah, I I it was a trouble. It was a challenge. Yeah.

Deepa: No, that that makes sense. Veronica was doing good things. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, how about you?

Deepa: I mean, it's interesting because I like sympathize with Ashley a lot, and I do think, like the scenes we got of Ashley are like reinforcing Ashley and Hanna's closeness. But like, is that necessarily like best parent? Maybe it is. I don't know like I'm not like. Yeah. I don't think she was not being a good parent. She was, but. Yeah, I don't know. It was. I felt like it was more about her, like Hanna supporting her than the other way around. So that was just which is fine. It's just not necessarily what I think of, usually. So yeah, let's go with Veronica.

Cameron: Yay!

Deepa: You win.

Cameron: I win.

Cameron: So. it's time.

Deepa: Chickpeas. Oh, my gosh!

Cameron: Chickpeas. Oh, my gosh!

Cameron: So I can't believe I've never talked about chopped salads in the segment before, but I, fucking love chopped salads

Deepa: you really do

Cameron: And I had one today that was like it was good. It it just had some interesting choices. It had black olives. And Pepperoni.

Deepa: Oh Okay.

Cameron: Curious. But my mom and I were talking. 

Deepa: Sounds like pizza

Cameron: It sounds like pizza. Yeah.

Deepa: What I used to get as a kid was usually pepperoni and black olives

Cameron: Yeah, yummy Combo. My mom and I were talking about Cuchina Cuchina

Deepa: Okay, okay, yes. 

Cameron: And their chopped salad today. And it is. It was so good it doesn't exist anymore. Right? That place.

Deepa: I haven't seen one. I don't remember it closing but I haven't seen one in a million years.

Cameron: So I found a like dupe recipe for a Cuchina Cuchina chopped salad that I'm going to include in this section. But I just think chopped salads are so good. And I feel like you. Don't forget the chickpeas in there, but there's so many other things going on, you know like you have your meats, your cheeses, some sort of olive sometimes. I don't know. I just yeah. I think they're great.

Deepa: Okay. I feel like I know what a chopped salad is compared to other salads. But what is a chopped salad to you?

Cameron: A chopped salad to me.

Deepa: Like what makes it different from other salads. I guess.

Cameron: Well, ideally it could. It should be chopped right like. No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not making a joke. Okay, okay? Like, I think that was the thing that the Cuchina Cuchina chopped salad there. The bits were small.

Deepa: Even like the greens or whatever

Cameron: Yeah, like, you make the green small.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: And so it's a different salad experience. And it's like a Romaine, right? So it's like, not a bougie lettuce. It's like a regular ass Lettuce.

Deepa: Sure.

Cameron: Chickpeas, probably like Provolone cheese. Maybe.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: Some sort of cheese, and then like not Pepperoni, but like a salami right.

Deepa: Chopped salad have to have like meat and cheese.

Cameron: Yeah.

Cameron: And like an Italian-y dressing okay? And probably like a an onion of some sort, maybe green or red.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: But I don't want to get this confused with there was a trend going around where people were just chopping up random shit and like putting it in a sandwich. And I think that's gross and weird like, why wouldn't you just have your shit normal in a sandwich? You know.

Deepa: Didn't it fall out like?

Cameron: They just like chopped it up, super. It was like, let's make this and chop it up, super small, put in a sandwich. I was like, no, just put those things in a sandwich. It's weird. So I don't want to like be in support of that. I don’t think People should get confused.

Deepa: I Feel like your definition of a chopped salad is much narrower than I realized. So that is what was. So. It's not. I feel like I could like. I kind of knew the chopped part, but the meat and cheese is kind of surprising.

Cameron: I think the meat and cheese is important. I did just have a like Mexican chopped salad at like Pablo y Pablo. Okay. And that was fucking delicious. and I don't. I think it was like a spicy Chorizo situation, and like I can't remember all that it was, but it, it was so good. Yeah.

but I think there has to be meat. I guess.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Interesting cause I think I like. I picture a lot of the salads that, like.

Deepa: you know, the trendy fast, casual salad places now as being chop salad, and like there used to be one on at least on the east coast that was even called chopped. I think it was like chopped with an apostrophe or something. but I don't think all of those salads had meat and cheese, so I don't think they were necessarily all fitting That definition.

Cameron: Yeah. I guess I'm strict.

Deepa: Yeah, Just since I mentioned fast casual. I feel like I need to tell everyone, because I used to be such a Sweet Green fan that you should not eat sweet green because one of its owners is so much of a Zionist that he's like profiled on the ADL website. So Boycott sweet green

Cameron: Woof.

Cameron: yeah, yeah.

Deepa: It’s Bad boycott sweet green.

Cameron: Boycott sweet green.

1836

Deepa: Yeah.

Deepa: I’ll just have to find duplicate recipes for their salads.

Cameron: I'm sure there are there out there.

Deepa: I do remember some of them well enough.

Cameron: It's like they're just up here.

Deepa: Just in college I ate there so often, it started in DC.

Cameron: Oh, okay.

Deepa: I'm excited to try this chopped salad. What else is in it like? Broadly other than chick paste? This one.

Cameron: Which one.

Deepa: The Cuchina Cuchina

Cameron: Oh, yeah, I think it was the shit that I was listing. Tomatoes This one has chicken in it, which is interesting.

Deepa: Okay. Not salami, but chicken

Cameron: No it has salami and chicken. So it's got more meat, tomatoes. and this one has Basil.

Deepa: Yum.

Cameron: And some mozzarella, so.

Deepa: Very Italian.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Mozzarella and Provolone. Okay.

Cameron: Yeah.

Cameron: more meat, more cheese.

Deepa: So wait is the Pagliacci salad, a chopped salad that is right.

Cameron: No, or is it?

Deepa: I don't know.

Cameron: No it has a different dressing.

Deepa: Oh, it's a dressing,

Cameron: It’s a dressing and oh, I just don't consider it a chop salad. That's interesting.

Deepa: That will have to be the focus of a different chickpeas. Oh, my gosh! Segment for people who don't live in Seattle. But so we can figure out, you can think about it and figure out if it’s a chopped salad or not.

Cameron: Oh, my God! I just think of it as totally different.

Deepa: That's like the only salad I eat regularly that has meat and cheese in it.

Cameron: I'll get back to you on this. This is an interesting, this is a a potential hole in my--

Deepa: sorry non Seattleites. We will explain the Pagliacci salad at another time.

Cameron: It's good as well, and I love it also.

Deepa: Okay, that is making me hungry, and it's good because I have to go to dinner.

Cameron: Great! I will end it. Or you should end it.

Deepa: I will end it. Thank you. Everyone for listening. And act normal bitches.

Cameron: Bye.