Episodes 2.10 & 2.11: "The Doctor Is Out"

We stand in full support of Palestinian liberation and believe that Israel should end its genocidal violence and occupation. If you don’t agree, please fuck off.

This week we discuss episodes 2.10, “Touched By an ‘A’-ngel” and 2.11, “I Must Confess”. Our best friend Heather Hogan has a hot new job! We chat about Mona’s meticulousness, Maya’s return, bad bobbleheads that relate to your profession, and whether Garrett killed Ian. We share PLL entries from our wine notebook, Deepa sees a dolphin, and Cameron does ageism.

Our awesome theme song is composed by Ashok R. Chandran! You can find his other work at his website. 

Episode Transcript: Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpeas Oh My Gosh! A delish salad! Chickpeas with grilled peaches, feta, candied pecans, pomegranate seeds, and a simple balsamic. 

Fashion Analysis: Our best, almost worst, and worst outfits!

Deepa’s Literary Analysis: Deepa refuses to discuss cherry symbolism and doesn’t remember anything about the one book Deepa brings up (it turned out to be Mountains Beyond Mountains by Tracy Kidder, which is about Dr. Paul Farmer and Partners In Health and almost certainly has a lot of white saviorism, beware)

Things We Referenced Related to PLL:  

• Aria destroying Ali and Emily’s nursery
• Weird truth game at Noel Kahn’s cabin
• Spencer joining the A Team (literally not figuratively)
• Aria’s publishing boyfriend is named Liam (not Ian or Ethan)
• Wines based on the PLL characters’ Myers-Briggs Types

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL: 

• Heather Hogan is now the engagement editor at The Sick Times, a fantastic online publication about Long COVID – definitely check it out!
• The Kesha lyric on Cameron’s wine kit was “living hard just like we should” from “Die Young”, translated poorly into Latin
• Kesha Power Half Hour (thank you Dr. Baby Beej!)
• The Bianca Lawson short film is “The Sign”, directed by Sadé Clacken Joseph, which is not gay but is very cute
• Deepa will take this opportunity though to plug queer short cuts, the newsletter where Deepa recommends queer short films

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to Free Lawrence Jenkins! Lawrence is an incredible abolitionist, artist, farmer, political educator, organizer, & friend of ours who is currently incarcerated. Help his defense committee to fight for his release!

Transcript

Cameron: Hello, everyone! Welcome back to your favorite Pretty Little Liars podcast, Don't Forget the Chickpeas. I'm Cameron.

Deepa: I’m Deepa.

Cameron: And today we are covering episode ten, “Touched By an A-ngel” – A, of course, is capitalized there – and episode eleven, “I Must Confess”. Deepa, do you have anything you'd like to start with off top?

Deepa: Yes, although it is not related to the episodes. But I do have something I want to start with: a shout out, perhaps. So there is an online publication called The Sick Times, which is an outlet that reports on Long COVID, specifically – a bit on COVID generally, but mostly on Long COVID. It's been around for, I don't know, maybe a year at this point. It's very useful. I would highly recommend it if you either want to keep up on Long COVID, or don't know much about Long COVID, and you will learn a lot if you follow them. But guess who they just hired as their new engagement editor!

Cameron: I'm supposed to guess?

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: You.

Deepa: I knew you were gonna guess that! Who else has Long COVID and is relevant to this podcast?

Cameron: Heather Hogan??

Deepa: Yes!

Cameron: Aaaah!

Deepa: I was so excited when I got the email, because I already follow this and love this publication, and also like, Heather, in her newsletter, has been talking about what are some of her goals after leaving Autostraddle, and one of them was to get more involved in Long COVID advocacy, and I guess this is how she's doing it. So.

Cameron: Oh my gosh! That's so exciting!

Deepa: Yes, I'm very happy for her, and I am excited to see her work. I don't know if she'll be writing for them, because I don't really know what an engagement editor is. I don't know if it means you're editing pieces about engagement, or you're the one engaging people to…

Cameron: Interesting. Yeah.

Deepa: …find pieces? I don't know, we'll see. So that is my shoutout.

Cameron: Awesome. That's great. 

Deepa: How did I know you were going to say “you”?

Cameron: Why – I don't know, why not?

Deepa: You think I would have only told you if I got a new job on this podcast?

Cameron: That would have been funny, I don't know.

Deepa: It would have been funny, but it would not have been related to PLL, weirdly enough.

Cameron: We should just like reserve news for each other to say over this podcast. Life updates.

Deepa: So that was my non-episode – but still PLL-related – beginning. I guess, to start with related to the episode: Mona with the A's in Emily's cereal? I had forgotten about that. It's incredible as like an A move. It honestly, I think, may rival fortune cookies. It's just so good! Like Emily was just like eating our cereal, and there's all A’s in it.

Cameron: Very dramatic and like meticulous, of course, as we know Mona to be.

Deepa: Absolutely. And I think it's the beginning of, sort of, the Emily gets targeted for being the “weak link”.

Cameron: Yeah, we obviously gonna keep talking about that. But I'm unclear as to why it gets established.

Deepa: It's not clear. It's not clear. I think Mona just like goes harder at Emily for a little while to break her down, but I don’t know why Emily, right? Like. Yeah, I have no idea. Why is Emily the weak link?

Cameron: I mean, I think we've decided, over the years that it's Aria.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. No, Aria is the weak link.

Cameron: Aria is 100% the weak link, and I – like it takes nothing for her to destroy her friends’ like nursery.

Deepa: Exactly, exactly.

Cameron: Yeah. And I just. I don't. I don't see it for Emily. I don't know.

Deepa: No, and I think, like Emily, maybe like buys into it for a little bit, just in the sense that, like she wants to run away from all of this right? She's like, maybe I need to leave so that I can get away from all this, not maybe I need to turn on my friends, you know?

Cameron: No, that's never something she's considering. Yeah. Like she's running in the woods without telling anyone, I guess. But like.

Deepa: Yeah, she's like making them all scared for her, but not betraying them.

Cameron: Not betraying them! Yeah, I just…

Deepa: It was like, Emily, why are you running in the woods when you have an ulcer? Like stop.

Cameron: Great question. Great question. Oh, her swim team FOMO is so sad right now.

Deepa: It is. Hanna says she's going to the pool hoping someone will push her in.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Emily, Emily, you can take a break, your dad told you. Don't stress so much! You know? You’re fine.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I think she just wants to have control over something, right, and she feels very out of control, I guess, because of it.

Cameron: That makes sense. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And it doesn't get better throughout these episodes.

Deepa: No. These episodes are rough, to be honest.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I mean especially for Hanna, too, but.

Cameron: Oh my god! I hate that shit!

Deepa: I know. I know. I was kind of glad we got both the riding one and the wedding right after, because I know that the riding one makes me dread the wedding one. So. Wedding rehearsal dinner one. Ugh. 

Cameron: I don't understand why we need more bullies on top of A.

Deepa: No! We already have enough bullies. And – ugh. Yeah, it's just not necessary. There's plenty of drama that you could get just from Hanna's dad getting remarried without it being this, you know?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Without it being her tricking Hanna into drinking and throw – you know? Ugh. I hate it.

Cameron: I hate it so much. Also. that dress isn't cute, like. I think Hanna did her a favor.

Deepa: I actually didn't mind the dress. I didn’t love it, but I didn’t mind it.

Cameron: I think it’s too young. How old is Isabelle?

Deepa: It’s too young? 

Cameron: Yeah!

Deepa: She’s probably in her forties? I don't know.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I don't know how old parents are. My parents are old, so.

Cameron: Old parents, well. I just – it felt very young.

Deepa: I guess? What are people in their forties supposed to get married in?

Cameron: I don't know. I just it felt like that was Kate's dress, I got confused.

Deepa: Like a full sleeved, like full sleeved, high-necked dress?

Cameron: No…maybe I'm just, yeah, channeling my mother here and her ageism.

Deepa: That could be. Also just like, what if it was Ashley in that dress?

Cameron: Ashley would look fabulous in that dress.

Deepa: Would you feel the same way?

Cameron: No, I would not feel the same way at all.

Deepa: So there you go. It's not the age. It's just Isabel. 

Cameron: Interesting. Interesting counter. So, I was wrong, I thought Mona put the helmet on the intercom.

Deepa: Mhm, but it was Hanna.

Cameron: I was wrong, Hanna did it on accident.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, I actually think Mona has very little to do with orchestrating this, other than you know, encouraging them to go out with Kate, and to impress Kate, that side of it, right. But that's she's doing openly, not secretly.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, it's just, yeah. It's just bad. I do think like Mona's very cute in those scenes? She’s very fun. Even though Hanna's not happy about it. And I do think their riding outfits are also kind of cute.

Cameron: I'm glad we got a lot of Mona.

Deepa: Exactly. Yeah.

Cameron: I always appreciate that.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, but the Kate of it. Does Kate just go away now? Or no, because…

Deepa: No…

Cameron: Oh, gosh, okay. Yeah.

Deepa: Do you remember the plotline that’s coming?

Cameron: I do remember the plotline that's coming. So.

Deepa: I don't remember when it is – oh! Sorry. There's a dolphin. I just saw a dolphin.

Cameron: A dolphin??

Deepa: Yeah!

Cameron: Wow!

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Cool!

Deepa: I just saw a little dorsal fin. It has to be a dolphin.

Cameron: Oh my gosh! What if it’s a shark?

Deepa: It's not moving like a shark, but that would be funny.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: It would be an orca, but it's by itself and it's very small, so I don't think it's an orca. I think it's a dolphin.

Cameron: Wow!

Deepa: I just saw it again.

Cameron: That's cool.

Deepa: Yeah! Hi! Hi dolphin! Okay, sorry.

Cameron: You’re good.

Deepa: What was I gonna say? Yeah. Yeah. So. Okay. First of all, they get married soon.

Cameron: I guess.

Deepa: Hanna stops the wedding, but they still get married. And then they move in with. They move back to Rosewood with Tom. And Kate goes to school with them for a bit, and then she does more bullying, but she makes it seem like Hanna's bullying her. So we have to go through all of that. But then I think she's gone, except in like mentions.

Cameron: It doesn't last very long, right?

Deepa: I don't think so. I think it probably wraps up in this season, I would say, and I don't think it's that many more episodes of Kate. It just might be a few episodes from now.

Cameron: Why do they have to move to Rosewood?

Deepa: Well, okay. Because when Hanna stops the wedding, Tom is like, “I guess we need to spend more time with together,” like, “Is that why you did this? Is that why you're acting out? Because I'm not here?” I think? I think. So. Something along those lines where, yeah, it has to do with Hanna stopping the wedding and Tom being like, “We need to all settle down, you need to face the reality of this,” or something, I don't know. I don't know.

Cameron: Ugh, yeah, Kate is just unnecessary as a character.

Deepa: Yup. And yeah. I did give Tom worst parent.

Cameron: Of course. Samesies. 

Deepa: He’s shitty. Really shitty. Why would you not believe your own daughter and your mother? Right, like?

Cameron: And his mother. Yeah.

Deepa: And believe his like future stepdaughter instead? I just like. Come on. Ugh. But the bright side of these episodes was Hanna’s grandmother. She's great. I did forget that she like immediately tries to start rearranging everything in Ashley's house.

Cameron: And like, get them back together.

Deepa: Yeah! Which is weird, because she clearly likes Ashley and doesn't seem to like her son. So you think she'd be like, “Good riddance.”

Cameron: Right! Like, “Congrats.”

Deepa: She had some amazing lines. I don't know if you wrote down any of them, but.

Cameron: There were a lot of good ones.

Deepa: Two of my favorites were, she said, “Cows are happy, and they end up as sloppy joes.” And the other one was that she said, “Giving birth to Tom was like passing a frozen turkey.”

Cameron: A frozen turkey! Oof!

Deepa: Oh, Grandma Regina!

Cameron: It is funny, cause she obviously hates him, or like he thinks he's trouble and has been a problem since, you know, it started.

Deepa: Exactly.

Cameron: But she won't engage in Ali's questioning about favoritism. And I feel like it's probably just cause Ali's like a, you know, kind of provoking. Just kind of like joking and trying to like get. I don't know but she's like, “Oh, no, I don't have favorites.”

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: When I feel like she obviously does. It's everyone but Tom.

Deepa: I don't even remember how many siblings he has.

Cameron: Me either. It's just gotta be everyone else.

Deepa: It's just everyone else. Ali scenes are always funny because they're so – like they have to shoehorn in why they're showing us this scene, but sometimes it feels very separate, right like, oh, we have to have a scene with Hanna's grandma to like, reveal more of Ali's plot. But it has nothing to do with like Regina really, you know?

Cameron: No, no.

Deepa: Who did you give best parent to?

Cameron: Ashley.

Deepa: Yeah, same.

Cameron: Like, I think. Byron and Ella are not doing like terribly, but it takes a while to get to a place where they're like, you know, seeking out help and acknowledging that like Mike needs help, and that, like they don't. That they like can't control it. I don't know. It was like Ella's weird like trying to keep it a secret from Byron that she was injured in like an, you know, fighting over a laptop with Mike.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: Weird, weird vibes. And yeah, just her being so anti-medication.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, that that part was like – yeah, I felt very complicated about both of them. Because again, I think this just like feels incredibly realistic. So it's hard to like actually slot it into good parent/bad parent.

Cameron: I know, I feel like I was like, I don't need to like. This feels like a real issue. I don't want to like put this as good or bad. Yeah.

Deepa: And I do feel like I have to eat my words with it from a few episodes ago, where I was thinking that Byron was bad the whole way along. And actually, he's definitely trying. And in some ways, you know, I think he’s – now that he's sort of understanding what this is, I think he's actually able to be a bit more empathetic towards Mike about it, because he, like he tells Aria that she, you know, when at one point when she's frustrated with Mike, he's like, “You need to be compassionate to your brother. He's going through a lot.” And like. I do think that has given him something of a – something to hold on to, as far as like, okay, I kind of know where we are now. And let's see how – like we might still disagree on how we support Mike in this. But yeah. And. obviously the topic of medication or not medication is incredibly complicated. There's not a right answer. But Ella, being like, “It's okay for some kids and not for mine,” was not great, you know. Like I agree with her that it's not a solution for everyone. But the way she was saying it felt very much like – it’s not – it didn't feel like, “Let's not automatically put him on a medication because it doesn't work for everyone,” or, “It's not the right thing for everyone.” It felt sort of the other way around, like, “Let's not even consider it, because my kid,” you know…

Cameron: …wouldn't be the type of person that would need this.

Deepa: Exactly. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: It felt very in the same vein as “he's not a criminal”.

Cameron: “He's not a criminal. He doesn't need medication. Those are other kids.”

Deepa: “Other kids.”

Cameron: “Other kids. Not my kid.” Yeah. Just like shutting down that possibility. It's not helpful.

Deepa: And the whole like she gets hurt when trying to take his laptop, isn't actually Mike's fault?

Cameron: No!

Deepa: It's weird that they frame it that way.

Cameron: Yeah. The way she's acting is like. Yeah, it's not his fault. It's an accident. I don't know.

Deepa: It's not like he lashed out and hurt her right like. That's kind of how they're acting around it like, “Don't tell your father, he'll be so upset at Mike.” I'm like what? No! Or like…yeah.

Cameron: No, yeah. Yeah, I don't. It was very strange.

Deepa: I am glad that Ella talks to Therapist Anne and gets some recommendations. And you know. But again, like. If you're gonna be like “medication isn't for everyone”, therapy also isn't necessarily for everyone. Right? Like, you gotta try a few different things, probably, and see what works for Mike.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I don't know.

Cameron: I just – ugh, poor Mike!

Deepa: Mike! I know, I know, and it takes like – I feel like Aria still hasn't really had the realization until that last scene with Mike, right? Like Byron had the realization of how hard this is all hitting Mike when he finds Mike in his bed right just like a few episodes ago.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Ella probably when they first found out about him. But I think, Aria…I think it takes this long for Aria to realize, you know, that this is actually like something he's going through, not something he's doing.

Cameron: Right! ‘cause when he's like, “Is Mom okay?” And Aria is like, “Yeah.” And then he's like, “Am I?”

Deepa: Yeah! I know! You will be, Mike!

Cameron: You will be, yeah, yeah.

Deepa: Aria was a good sister, when you know, when she saw that. It just took a little while for her to get there.

Cameron: Yeah. Oh.

Deepa: We did get the confirmation that they have – that the Liars have stopped seeing Therapist Anne, which is. I don't know, like Aria seems to have liked it, so I don't know why? Like if they hated it, and the and the parents were all like, “Yeah, she was wrong about separating them,” then I get it. But Aria is like, “Yeah, I kind of looked forward to it.” Like, so why did? Why did you stop? You don't have to like not have been responsible for the Ian thing to go to therapy. You could just go to therapy if you want.

Cameron: Right. And they do.

Deepa: Yeah, they take themselves to therapy.

Cameron: They take themselves to therapy in a like pre-school-day, impromptu, like impromptu session.

Deepa: Her availability, man.

Cameron: Wild. I guess. I do. Okay. Therapy questions about PLL, and maybe just Therapy Anne specifically. How would she know – I get that like, maybe you fill out an intake form by hand. Right? So she sees your handwriting.

Deepa: Sure.

Cameron: But how does she know that Mona doesn't know how to spell “nosy”? Like, are you submitting journals to your therapist? Are you like…I? I'm confused about that as a…

Deepa: [laughing] Sorry, I just I didn't pick up on that at all. That's really funny.

Cameron: I was like, I, what are how are we getting this.

Deepa: See, okay, I wasn't actually even thinking about the spelling part. But you're right, because she writes it wrong. I was just thinking that she found the phrase “nosy bitches” and tracked that. But then she wouldn't also be spelling it wrong. So that's funny.

Cameron: Right, so she spells it wrong in her like notes.

Deepa: In her, in her, yeah, in her notes from the session. Yeah, that is really funny, I have no idea!

Cameron: It’s like, how are you doing this?

Deepa: That's really funny. Wow.

Cameron: And I do appreciate that she pulls out like a therapy shawl. I did like that.

Deepa: Yes. Yeah. I was happy to see Therapist Anne, obviously. It was good that she did a normal therapist move and did not take Mike on as her client and instead recommended people, which is what therapists actually do. I think, you know, I feel like for drama they could have just been like, yes, he's going to the same therapist, because there's only one therapist in Rosewood.

Cameron: Only one therapist in Rosewood.

Deepa: But I – and I am very glad that the Liars are confiding in her. Obviously it's good that for them to have someone to confide in, and also it does end up leading to her discovering Mona. I didn't love her speech, though, at school, just like, why would you take this and immediately…? You know, like it feels like what they just told you is delicate enough that you shouldn't even allude to it. You know what I mean? I don't know.

Cameron: Yeah. And it feels like such a. I don't know exactly how to say this, but it feels like some like, kind of like, hot take, like “bullying online”…I don't know. It's like, “social media.” Like?

Deepa: Okay for that, we do have to remember that this is like 2011. I do feel like –

Cameron: You are right.

Deepa: Social media for high schoolers. Right? Like. Facebook came out in the mid-2000s. But you had to be in college to do it, right? So like social media for high schoolers, I feel like was actually pretty recent at that point. 

Cameron: Yeah, I guess it. It just felt like a – I don't know, like an undergrad paper? Just being like – when she was like, “These are etched in stone,” like connecting it back to what she was talking about cavemen. Just like this is. This is silly, I don't know. Like I do hear what you're saying, that it is like more topical and like more of a like “whoa!” since this is happening at that time period, but it just felt so funny. I was like, what is this speech, Therapist Anne?

Deepa: Yes, yes. And the way, yeah, definitely, like both the speech and the show's overall way of dealing with it is kind of After School Special, right? Like.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: Even if it's topical, it's like, doesn't actually feel. Yeah, it feels very on the nose. I'm like, clearly, no one's getting anything out of this like speech that she’s giving.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Like, there's no one there being like, “Oh, yeah, I didn't realize I was being cyber-bullied!”

Cameron: I did like Mona just like filing her nails, and turning to Hanna being like, “Boring!” Yeah, I think she could have done a better speech at school.

Deepa: Definitely.

Cameron: Especially because the message is that people have – like victims of bullying, have to speak out and tell people this is happening. And I guess that's not necessarily like always enough?

Deepa: No!

Cameron: Never enough, like in most cases, enough?

Deepa: In this case they did. And now you're scaring them by putting it out there, right?

Cameron: Right. Like, okay.

Deepa: Oh, Therapist Anne.

Cameron: Therapist Anne.

Deepa: Complicated feelings about Therapist Anne.

Cameron: She is always available, and we will give her that.

Deepa: She talks like a therapist, even in that scene she was talking like a therapist. So maybe therapists don't give good speeches.

Cameron: Oh, interesting! They're not good at speeches. 

Deepa: They're probably not trained in public speaking, right? They're trained to have more intimate conversations, so. I actually thought that we were gonna get the Therapist Anne speech in episode ten. But no, that was the college fair.

Cameron: Jesus Christ. I. Okay. Why the fuck is it okay for Ezra to say to Aria, at college fair on high school campus, that “he thinks she'll like Hollis. The teachers are very hands-on”?

Deepa: Aaaaah! Aaaaah! Hmm. I do not have an answer for you. I'm sorry.

Cameron: I think I blacked out for the entire rest of the college fair episode, or not episode, but just college fair moments, because I was like, what. How do we? We're just gonna let that be?

Deepa: We're not only gonna let that be, I think we're supposed to find it cute or sexy, or both.

Cameron: Ew.

Deepa: Gross! Aaaah! Meanwhile, in that same episode, Spencer gets into Ezra's car to warn him about Aria and Jason or whatever, and when she calls him “Ezra” and corrects “Mr. Fitz”, and he says, “Better, thank you.” What? I. What. I thought you weren't their teacher anymore, Ezra like, aren’t we all supposed to call you Ezra now? Like. There’s a boundary for anyone else. It's just not there for Aria! And, like, the boundary is good, I'm not saying that they should, and get closer to him because he's abusing their friend, right? Like it's just they're so clear about it. They're so clear about it all the time, you know. It’s like the thing with Emily last episode that we talked about with Wren, acknowledging that Emily is the minor in this like medical context, but then still hitting on Spencer, right? Like the double standard is right there.

Cameron: The double standard is right there, and it's just only when it's convenient or when they want to see it, will they be like, “Oh, no, I can't possibly.” Like!

Deepa: Well, and I don't even know if it's that it's they're not seeing it, right. Because then you have, that same episode, Ella saying exactly why this is wrong, because she saw Spencer and Ezra together. And. So it's not even that they're not seeing it. It's that they think it's okay, right? That they that they have decided that Aria is more mature, or what the fuck ever.

Cameron: Yeah. What the fuck ever.

Deepa: Or maybe all of them are more mature, and so like they could all date adults. I don't know. I don't know. They do all get hit on at the very least by adults at various points. So.

Cameron: I am glad that that Ella named abuse of power.

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: And said like she would be disappointed and betrayed. But. I don't know, that...

Deepa: Well, it doesn't stick.

Cameron: It doesn’t stick! So, like.

Deepa: We know that is coming up.

Cameron: I'm just like, okay.

Deepa: It feels hollow.

Cameron: It feels hollow! Yes.

Deepa: Like again, I think at that point Byron is the one who has the like proportionate reaction. Weirdly, he does it by trying to give Ezra career opportunities. But sure, like.

Cameron: It’s the tactic he has. Just like. Ship him off.

Deepa: I guess he's not rich enough to do the whole like, “How much money do you need to leave my daughter alone?” So it's like, “Here's a job.”

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: That’s like the power he has, as a tenured professor.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay, while we're on that, let’s talk about Jason.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: Jason did not take the creepy Aria photos. We knew that already.

Cameron: We did know that already. But I. I don't know. Like maybe it would change if the photos of me sleeping were taken by like a dead friend, I guess, but like I don't know if I necessarily want framed pictures of me sleeping?

Deepa: No! Yeah. Weird.

Cameron: I don't like that as a gift.

Deepa: Yeah, it's weird. It's weird. Like. Where do you display that as a teenager especially.

Cameron: Like, where, where.

Deepa: Usually when friends give you photographs, it's you with your friend together, or maybe like a portrait. I don't know. Not just like your close-up face while you're sleeping, that you didn't know that photo was being taken.

Cameron: You didn't know! I do like when they were like, “Oh, I didn't know Ali was artistic.” I was like, she's not artistic. She's just gay.

Deepa: Just gay!

Cameron: I don’t know what to tell you!

Deepa: I know. Jason also says, “I don't know what goes on at slumber parties,” and I was like, gay shit, Jason.

Cameron: Gay shit.

Deepa: Gay shit.

Cameron: Oh my gosh.

Deepa: Yeah. So we had just like a lot of like, back and forth about whether Jason's creepy, basically right? Like. Oh, guess what. He didn't take the Ali photos, but he's still part of the NAT Club like, it just felt. Yeah, it was. It felt very sort of disconnected in a way, but then, also it just made me think like – I was trying to remember if they stay creeped out by Jason for NAT Club shit, and I feel like, you know, Spencer's the one driving this at this point. We’re coming up eventually on the reveal that Jason's her brother. Like when we get to that, do they just forget about the rest of it? Because he's Spencer's brother? Like he was already Ali's brother, and he was doing this creepy shit, and they found it creepy when he was only Ali's brother. Why don't they stay creeped out by Jason after figuring out the NAT Club?

Cameron: Is it just because we move on from NAT Club as a plot device at all? Like as a point that matters in the story?

Deepa: Maybe. Yeah. But like, you know, we don't move on from Garrett, though. Right? Like Garrett stays. Garrett stays a potential suspect through the third season – into the third season, I mean when he, you know, dies. But yeah, I don't know. We'll see. We'll see, obviously. But in my head it's because Spencer, like, realizes that he's her brother and switches to like dealing with that rather than dealing with him being part of the NAT Club. I don't know

Cameron: Yeah, like, ‘cause. He's already been a brother not to Spencer, but to Ali, and he's been incredibly creepy.

Deepa: Mhm.

Cameron: NAT Forever, or whatever he said.

Deepa: Like they got, yeah, fucking t-shirts.

Cameron: Yeah. T-shirts. Fucking put it in the yearbook.

Deepa: Yeah, they are not a little bit subtle.

Cameron: Proud of their little Latin.

Deepa: This does make me think of the like wine kit I got you with poorly-translated – Google-translated Latin.

Cameron: Oh! It was a Kesha lyric, right?

Deepa: Which one was it?

Cameron: Ohhh. Which one was it?

Deepa: I don't know. I don't know. Shoot! Listeners, one year for – Christmas? Birthday? I don't know – oh, it was Christmas, because I got everyone like stuff from the same Etsy store, that was all like engraved stuff in wood.

Cameron: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Deepa: Yeah. So I got all of our friends, and at the time housemates, gifts from the same place. And for Cameron it was a, you know, like a wooden box that had a wine kit in it that has, like, you know, like a corkscrew, and like a stopper. I don't know. A little funnel thing whatever. And on the front was a grape and a Kesha lyric translated badly into Latin – that was intentionally badly translated. It was ironic or something. I don't know.

Cameron: No, it was great.

Deepa: It's sad that I can't remember which lyric. Hmm!

Cameron: I. It wasn't like “we are who we are”, was it?

Deepa: No, I don't think so. I don't think so.

Cameron: Oh, no, I'm getting that confused with the Spanish captions in Kesha Power Half Hour. “Somos…”

Deepa: “Somos quienes somos”?

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: Do we have to explain the Kesha Power Half Hour to the listeners?

Cameron: I think it goes without explaining.

Deepa: Well, I guess we should explain that our friend like made it and put together a bunch of videos, and that for some reason included one that Spanish subtitles, so.

Cameron: Thank you, Doctor Baby Beej.

Deepa: Who’s probably not listening to this podcast.

Cameron: Probably not, but shout out anyway.

Deepa: Anyway.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: You know what I did think of with Garrett. So it occurred to me that what would actually make the most sense for Ian's death is if Garrett killed him, to cover things up rather than him killing himself. Because it doesn't make sense for Mona to have killed him. I don't think it makes sense for Charlotte or anyone else we know to have killed him, so Garrett would make perfect sense to me. But I don't think that's what happens.

Cameron: Could we just decide that's what happens? Because we don't know who kills Ian, right?

Deepa: I don't remember. We may find out at some point, or we may just continue to think it's suicide, but that he didn't write the note. I don't know.

Cameron: Garrett would make so much sense, and would make sense why he's so freaked out right now.

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. It's Garrett for us.

Cameron: We’ve decided.

Deepa: Just like Mike is A for us, Garrett is Ian’s murderer.

Cameron: Garrett is the murderer! Why is Jenna like putting cherry pits on a dashboard sinister?

Deepa: I don't know. It's like a little gross, I guess, but it's not sinister!

Cameron: It’s kind of gross, yeah.

Deepa: And Toby pulling this shit like. Come on, come the fuck on, Toby. You know what she deals with every day, like you…obviously you hate her, and that's fine, but you like – I don't know. I don't know. I guess it's only sinister ‘cause it's Garrett's car. I don't know, but we already know about Garrett and Jenna at that point.

Cameron: I guess ‘cause they were at Jason's house?

Deepa: Maybe.

Cameron: I don't know. The cherries. I was like, is this symbolism.

Deepa: I hope not!

Cameron: Is that what were supposed to be getting out of this? 

Deepa: I don’t wanna do cherry symbolism!

Cameron: Great. Let's move on, then.

Deepa: I have one more maybe figuring out a thing that we've been wondering. Which: was it Peter in Jason's house the whole time? Like every time we saw like a creepy, shadowy figure, was it just Peter coming over?

Cameron: Why not? He's been – just keeps coming over.

Deepa: Great. We solved that one too!

Cameron: God, we're so good. You are welcome, listeners.

Deepa: The reveal of Peter coming out of the house was so funny.

Cameron: So funny, and again, like I can hardly ever put him as worst parent ‘cause he's so entertaining.

Deepa: He's so funny. It's yeah. He's so funny. He is like a lawyer all the time, like at one point when Spencer says something, he's like, “Be very careful what you say.” And I'm like, she's not on the stand, Peter, like she could say whatever she wants. She's not gonna perjure herself! Like she's not like making – like her making accusations doesn't actually stick, you know. He just feels like he's always in a courtroom. But also isn't good at lying, so it's confusing.

Cameron: That's very confusing. And like, if I – okay, the DiLaurentises hired him as lawyer, to be lawyer, to alter Jason and Ali's grandma's will.

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: Wild! And do you think like he would be the one to hire cause he like had sex with him. Jessica? I don't understand!

Deepa: I have two ideas about this. One is that – I mean – I'm not – you know, I think the implication is that Jason was disinherited because he was like...

Cameron: Partying?

Deepa: …having substance stuff and partying all the time and everything. But I wonder if the implication is actually that it's Ken's mother? And so, if he's not related to her, that she disinherited him, and so – 

Cameron: Ohhhh.

Deepa: – Peter would be the only one who could know that, right.

Cameron: Thank you.

Deepa: Alternately, they just hired Peter because Peter has like – maybe they are slightly blackmailing him, right? Like, “If you don't help us…”

Cameron: Sure, sure, sure.

Deepa: I don't know who they like. Veronica already knows, I think. No, no, Veronica doesn't –

I think she does. I think she does, because, you know, when Spencer tells her about the hockey stick, and she's like, “Just stay away from that family.” So I think she might know. Or does she just know that Spencer is adopted? Because obviously she has to know that. And I'm getting those two things mixed up.

Cameron: Fair.

Deepa: I don't know. But anyway, those are my two ideas for why.

Cameron: Okay, that makes more – the like being potentially disowned because they found out that Peter’s the father or whatever makes more sense.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Sorry you brought up wine and gifts earlier, so I'm gonna do a really natural segue here. I think in season one, we talked about the wine – the PLL wines?

Deepa: We talked about the PLL wines, yes, yes. So this is – reminder for listeners, this is Cameron's amazing birthday for me, which was cross-referencing two different MBTI, Myers-Briggs things to come up with wines for the Liars based on their Myers Briggs types.

Cameron: Yeah. And because this was an introduction into Emily being the “weakest link” as a theme, we thought we would reference that wine and our feelings about that. So what year was this? Do we have any idea?

Deepa: It was 2014.

Cameron: 2014. Okay. So Emily Fields is a Riesling.

Deepa: Wait! Wait! Are you gonna describe what you're reading from?

Cameron: Oh, I guess I should do that.

Deepa: Why else would we have written their feelings about it?

Cameron: So Deepa and I share a wine notebook.

Deepa: It's our wine reviews. Originally it was started to try and remember what wines we liked from the grocery store, so we wouldn't buy wines we didn't like again. We sometimes used it for that purpose. Mostly it's just been like for jokes.

Cameron: It's like mostly jokes, but also like a very nice kind of archive? Like different – ‘cause a bunch of different people have written in this? Like it's not just you and I. There's like a lot of cameos in here.

Deepa: There's a lot of cameos. I think both of us have exes who have written in it.

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: And just like various friends.

Cameron: Various friends. And so it's like a nice, very random…

Deepa: And it spans over like a decade, because we've lived together at multiple different times. So now it's mostly, I feel like, an archive of jokes, and also what we were watching when we were drinking the wine. That's what you can figure out from…

Cameron: Oh, it's very… like it got a lot of entries during like beginning, during like 2020, 2021.

Deepa: During 2020.

Cameron: Yeah, I would say.

Deepa: When we were drinking like – 

Cameron: When we were –

Deepa: a lot of wine.

Cameron: A lot of wine was happening. But one of the first couple of entries in this was our reviews of the Pretty Little Liars wines. And I didn't actually look at the other ones aside from Emily, so I guess we can, but I have the Emily one open. And Deepa says – it was Urban Riesling, which doesn't tell us much, but Deepa says: “Oh, Emily Fields, too sweet for your own good. I really enjoyed this because I'm a weirdo who basically likes every type of wine including sweet Emily Rieslings. Definitely more like a dessert wine, though; probably best in small quantities. YES.” We usually like did a whether or not we liked it at the end, I guess.

Deepa: In all caps.

Cameron: In all caps. And Cameron says: “Emily might be the weak link, after all. Congrats for hooking up with Ali. But seriously, this wine is –” I can't read my handwriting. It either says “weak” or “whack”? Which I don't know.

Deepa: “Weak” makes more sense.

Cameron: Makes more sense.

Deepa: Contextually.

Cameron: And then I wrote “NOPE”. So, differing thoughts on that.

Deepa: That even tells me what PLL we were watching at the time. It must be when Ali comes back.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: Season…five. Five? Four or five. See, the wine book is so useful.

Cameron: So much information.

Deepa: With my memory getting worse, the wine book will have to hold our memories.

Cameron: Are you interested in hearing – either for podcasts or just for you – the other ones?

Deepa: Why don't we do one other one? And we can save a couple of others for.

Cameron: Oh, save it. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: We have a Spencer review.

Deepa: Great.

Cameron: So Spencer's a Nebbiolo.

Deepa: Right, right.

Cameron: And we were drinking… ugh, Cren del Gufo Nebbiolo Langhe?

Deepa: Oh my god.

Cameron: Which is probably pronounced a lot different than that. Deepa says: “Tastes like Spencer Hastings: strong, intense, a little bitter, always out to win. Also, maybe dresses a little like a sexy librarian. YES.” Cameron says: “Yep, it's Spencer, all right. It is bitter, but then, to the point. Definitely in charge. Delicious! YES.”

Deepa: I don't think I had ever tried a Nebbiolo before that, I feel like I didn't know what Nebbiolo was. So thank you, Spencer.

Cameron: They're delicious. Bery good.

Deepa: It is. Whenever we do read the others, it is going to be interesting, ‘cause this was in a period where you didn't like rosés. And Hanna is a rosé!

Cameron: I've come around. Sorry, everybody. So that was a little detour. But back to business.

Deepa: Speaking of Spencer and her Spencer-ness: at one point she does say that the Hastings motto is, “Why enjoy today when you be worrying about tomorrow?”

Cameron: I know! Oh. ‘cause she doesn't need to go to the college fair, cause she's already done the college fair.

Deepa: She's already – yeah, exactly.

Cameron: Just like won the college fair. It's definitely something you can win.

Deepa: I don't know, Spencer, ‘cause you definitely get yourself into a position where you have to, like, go to a weird party in a cabin with, like, your dead friend's older friend, just to try and submit a college application, at some point, and then play this like weird truth game against Noel Kahn and his brother? So.

Cameron: It's the most – the least that – it makes no sense. It is, I think, a testament to how like fucked up being this like surveilled and policed gets her, because she's just like, “I forgot to apply to college.” Like, which is something she's been like focused on, you know, since…

Deepa: Birth?

Cameron: Birth! Yeah, probably. But like, just being like, “I forgot to apply to college!” Oh, Spencer! Yeah, that game makes no sense, though. Truth versus truth? Or, I don't know what it's called. Truth?

Deepa: I don't know what they call it. It is definitely truth with no dare, and also they seem to take it incredibly seriously. Like they seem to take it like the stakes are really high for what people are gonna answer. But you could just lie! Like this is the lying show. Why is it – like, you know? There’s no stakes here!

Cameron: True! Why couldn't we just be like “no, I never did that”?

Deepa: Yeah, exactly! Spencer like questions Noel Kahn as if he's absolutely gonna tell the truth. But you know?

Cameron: I guess she was raised by lawyers.

Deepa: I was just gonna say!

Cameron: Back to the Peter thing. No one can perjure themselves in real life? What? [both laugh] We get Maya!

Deepa: Yes, we do!

Cameron: In the end of the second episode.

Deepa: Yes, I feel like that was the reward, after all of the other stuff we had to go through these episodes.

Cameron: Yes, it was like a breath of fresh air. Yeah. She's so lovely.

Deepa: She is. She's so funny in like very cute way like – and like, I think we talked about this in the first season too – I feel like they are realistically teenage awkward, but in a way that is actually cute, not in a way that's just awkward? They keep accidentally like interrupting each other and apologizing, but they're still adorable.

Cameron: Yeah. Her talking into the plant as if Pam has bugged their date is incredible.

Deepa: Holding hands on the table. Also, she has an entirely correct opinion about Paige.

Cameron: Yes, she was like, “I came back just in time!”

Deepa: How could you date her after she tried to drown you??

Cameron: She tried to drown you!

Deepa: Yeah. So we got one good partner. I don't know why they keep like not letting Caleb and Maya be there at the same time. I know Caleb will come back at some point soon, so maybe there'll be like a little bit of time when we like two partners. But like right now, it's just like we're – thank god Maya's here, because that was empty otherwise.

Cameron: Yeah. Thank god.

Deepa: Oh, one other “Emily is the weakest link” thing that we didn't talk about, and that we even more needed the Maya reward for, was the fucking massage.

Cameron: Nooo, I hate the massage.

Deepa: It's horrible!

Cameron: Ugh!

Deepa: Also I forgot that Lucas writes a on the glass as well, like, what did Mona tell you were doing, you know? Like I know he didn’t – no one knows about A yet, obviously. They will after it's revealed that Mona was A. But still, like, what did you – what did Mona tell you that like that meant? Or. You know?

Cameron: Is he just on board – I forget, sorry – because Ali was so mean to him, or because Mona also knows about his gambling?

Deepa: You hypothesized recently that it was about the gambling debts. But I don't – and that makes more sense to me, because I don't think he has any more love for Mona than he does for Ali, right?

Cameron: Right. Mona was like – she's gotta be blackmailing him, right.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don’t think he has anything against Emily specifically, right? Like, I mean, other than them all being Ali's friends. But he's forgiven Hanna for that. So.

Cameron: Right, right.

Deepa: Like Mona still calls him slurs. Like. I don't think he would like side with Mona over Emily at this point just because he hated Ali, you know?

Cameron: Right, right.

Deepa: It must be, it must be blackmail.

Cameron: Oh, but it's so bad! And then the text afterwards makes it like that much worse, right like, “Look how easy it is for me to get my hands around your neck.”

Deepa: Horrifying, horrifying. All while Mona's like, what, lost in the woods? Geez.

Cameron: It's like, busy. Ugh, god. Poor Emily!

Deepa: Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: But again, she's not like taking it out on her friends about this!

Deepa: No! She just flees!

Cameron: She’s, like, upset and traumatized, and trying to deal with that.

Deepa: Yeah, there's no excuse for what Aria does in the future, because none of them have done that! Like the closest anyone else has come, probably, is Spencer joining the A Team, right? And we're mad about that too.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Which is kind of for the same reason, to be honest. But she also like thinks that then they can catch A… I don't know, anyway.

Cameron: I don’t really remember.

Deepa: Yeah. Also, there's a difference between like thinking that Toby's dead versus worrying that Ezra might have to face consequences.

Cameron: Oh my god! Yeah, she thinks Toby's dead!

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: She has a mental breakdown! She's like.

Deepa: She gets institutionalized!

Cameron: She gets institutionalized! It's different.

Deepa: Also, she's still a teenager at that point, whereas Aria does stuff as a complete adult at various points.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: ‘cause that's the flash forward, right?

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And when Jackie's talking to her about college, like, I wish she was right! Jackie's basically like, “College will change a lot of things for you. You'll look back and realize how naive you were.” And I was like, I fucking wish, because that should be how it goes, right?

Cameron: I had the same feeling! I was like, I wish there was perspective gained and not like, oh, let me just go back and be in this fucking shit again.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. ‘cause she does get away, right? Like she dates Jason in college for at least – I don't know if it’s while she's in college, but at some point during the time skip she dates Jason, so like clearly not enough perspective. But eventually she is like…

Cameron: Dating this other dude. But he was boring so…

Deepa: Yeah, but he seems like normal boring, not like… like he seemed like the kind of boring you could still have a conversation with, not like Hanna's Australian fiancé.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: Just like, head empty, you know? Like he just didn’t seem like a real person to me.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: I could never take him seriously, whereas like Aria's like bookish editor co-worker was like, oh, yeah, I, you know, I know people who've dated someone like that, right? A little boring's okay sometimes!

Cameron: Yeah, what is his name? Because I want to say Ian, but that's not him.

Deepa: No, the last time we talked about him, you also said Ian!

Cameron: God, I…!

Deepa: You're consistent! You're consistent.

Cameron: I feel like you listening to these episodes much more than me has just like exposed something.

Deepa: The patterns. Yeah.

Cameron: The patterns. I just repeat the same shit over and over again, and think I'm saying something new.

Deepa: I also repeat the same shit over and over again, or I just find errors that you know, from what I previously said, so.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Listeners, to be clear, this season, I haven't been listening to our podcast just to listen to it. But I do listen to it more than Cameron cause I edit it, so.

Cameron: Deepa is our sound engineer, audio engineer.

Deepa: And it's harder than I thought it would be.

Cameron: Thank you for taking that on. Ethan?

Deepa: What?

Cameron: Ethan?

Deepa: Ethan is also what you said after it wasn't Ian. I don't know if it's right.

Cameron: Okay, I'm gonna drop this. Moving on.

Deepa: You could be right! I don't know. What I do know is that you said it before.

Cameron: Damn it. I hope our listeners find that charming.

Deepa: If they're still with us, I'm sure they do.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I also liked that Emily called Maya kind of because of her conversation with Ashley, which was a really nice conversation. After Ashley was again drinking wine alone in the dark in the kitchen! Like. I'm glad that Emily went down so that she wasn’t doing that alone!

Cameron: Me too.

Deepa: But yeah, that was a really lovely conversation. That was definitely part of what – I mean. I don't. I think I would have given it to Ashley anyway, for best parent. But that was part of what influenced me. And I, and I do think that's why she called Maya, which, good job, Ashley.

Cameron: Yeah. Like about unanswered questions, or just kind of like things you don't know.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. And they kind of bait and switch us a little bit, ‘cause they're like, it makes you think that she's gonna call Samara, but then she doesn't!

Cameron: Thankfully not!

Deepa: Thankfully.

Cameron: Oh, Maya.

Deepa: So I do this thing where I watch queer short films and recommend them to people, and I think I was watching something the other day that was part of a series where another short film in the series had Bianca Lawson in it. Sorry. That's very tangential. But that makes me wanna go watch that short film.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: It was in a series like produced by Reese Witherspoon, but she's not in any of them. And yeah, I don't know. I guess, like, big time stars just like produce short films sometimes. It's very funny, like.

Cameron: Huh!

Deepa: I've definitely seen like a Lena Waithe-produced short film that like, yeah, anyway. But I guess she produces stuff. I guess I haven't heard of Reese Witherspoon doing this. Anyway! The short that I was recommending, which is queer, is directed by Carly Usdin, who also directed Suicide Kale.

Cameron: Oh yeah, okay.

Deepa: So that is. But then, in the same series, there was something, I think, maybe also directed by Bianca Lawson? So yeah, I will link it in the show notes.

Cameron: Is she playing a teenager?

Deepa: I hope not. I hope it's something that she has control over, she wouldn't make herself a teenager. But you never know. And I don't know if that one is gay. Unfortunately.

Cameron: Oh, I just was assuming it was gay.

Deepa: Yeah, it would be nice. I think they were all like “women-led” films.

Cameron: Sure, okay.

Deepa: That seems more like Reese Witherspoon’s vibe.

Cameron: Yeah, like she has a book club, right?

Deepa: Yeah, exactly.

Cameron: Should we talk fashion?

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: I gave worst – it was a toss-up for me. I was appalled by Spencer's cold shoulder denim outfit, but only because it could have been such a good outfit.

Deepa: It could have been so good! I had it in “other” for exactly that reason.

Cameron: Yeah. So I was like, I don't. I can't. Like I would just like the potential of the outfit was very good, and so it was reduced by the cutouts.

Deepa: Yes, and it surprised me, because usually they do that shit for Emily.

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: This time it was Spencer. Yeah. More egregious.

Cameron: They were big. They are like not subtle. But I gave worst to Aria's mouse outfit.

Deepa: Aria’s mouse outfit... why am I not noticing the animals in these outfits? Which one is the mouse outfit?

Cameron: It's the one she wears in the whole first episode. It's a mouse shirt, a big black skirt, and it's just like, why are you wearing a mouse shirt?

Deepa: I didn’t notice that it was a mouse!

Cameron: What did you think it was?

Deepa: I don't know!

Cameron: Like abstract art?

Deepa: I did watch these episodes like two weeks ago, so I don't remember the outfit, and that's at least understandable. But I guess I didn't even notice when I first watched it, so.

Cameron: It's like, obviously mice. Wait, what did you put as worst?

Deepa: She had just like a blue top, layered over a white top, over black jeans that were speckled, and I was just like not into it. It was very 2010s.

Cameron: It wasn't cute. I will give you that.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. And then I also – I think, just because this is more in the category of like, it could have been good – Hanna had a teal dress with black lacy tights that I really wanted to like, but like something made it bad, and I can't tell if it was the earrings, or the belt, or her hair, or something, but like. I wasn't into it.

Cameron: The belt was leopard print.

Deepa: Yeah, it didn't really go.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But I don't think that would have made me hate it on its own, you know, like it had to be like. Maybe it's with the combination of all three of those things? And it's weird because her hair looks really good at the rehearsal dinner later that same day. But it looked bad with the outfit at school. Yeah, maybe I'm just like unaware of animals in prints. Or maybe I'm like looking for it now with Spencer but not with other people.

Cameron: I don't know. There's something going on here.

Deepa: Wait wait wait. Was it the gray top?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Oh, okay, okay, okay. I still don't remember that it had mice, but I can picture the rest of the outfit now. Okay. I did give an Aria outfit best.

Cameron: Me too.

Deepa: And this will not be a surprise, I think, to Cameron, or to probably anyone who listens to this podcast now. But I really liked her like burgundy outfit with the matching headband and pleated skirt.

Cameron: SAME. Same.

Deepa: Like it hit two of my buttons, like good buttons. Headband and pleats, so.

Cameron: I did also give that best outfit.

Deepa: It was cute! I think her hair and makeup also looked good. Okay. I'm glad you also gave it best. So it wasn't just me.

Cameron: No, it was the best. Objectively.

Deepa: Did you have any others that you liked or listed?

Cameron: No, I just like, yeah, I wasn't in. I wanted to like Hanna stuff more than I did. And like Spencer stuff like, seemed maybe like it was gonna be okay. But it was like too hard to see, or it was like too boring or something.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. Other than the other than the cutout denim. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: You know, it's interesting – I think, going into this podcast, I definitely expected us to give Aria worst most of the time. And I think we do. But we also give Aria best more frequently than I would have expected. Often in the same episode!

Cameron: I mean there’s something to be said for her like distinctive style, right?

Deepa: Yeah, it like pops out. And it's like, yeah, it's like, unique sometimes. So. Yeah. I haven't like, actually kept a catalog of this or anything. It just like, it feels like we give Aria best more often than I would have would have thought.

Cameron: You're not taking down stats?

Deepa: No. Ooh, I could start doing stats for both for both those things! Yeah, I'll do that.

Cameron: No! I mean, do whatever you want, but that's funny.

Deepa: “Don't tell you”, is that what you said?

Cameron: No, I said, “do whatever you want”.

Deepa: Oh okay. I thought you said, “Do whatever you want, but don’t tell me.” 

Cameron: Oh, no, you can tell me if you do that. I want to know the stats. Definitely. [both laugh] I do appreciate Mona putting the listening device in Therapist Anne's office under a Freud bobblehead.

Deepa: Which is like, can you imagine being a therapist and having people give you shit like that? And you probably have to keep it, you know, in your office so that they can see it.

Cameron: Ugh

Deepa: I just, yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I guess every job probably has some bad bobblehead that someone could give you, but like Freud seems particularly common.

Cameron: Wait. Who's a bad bobblehead you could get in your job? I'm confused.

Deepa: Oh god, okay. Who could I get in my job? I don't know, Al Gore??

Cameron: That is a bad bobblehead!

Deepa: Ugh! Horrifying! Please no one give me an Al Gore bobblehead. Or I guess if you find an Al Gore bobblehead, it would be pretty funny if you gave it to me. I have no idea who you would get a bobblehead of.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: I mean, it's like either gonna be too broad or too specific. You know what I mean? Like. Obviously there could be a million women sports bobble heads, but like. The specifics of it.

Cameron: It would just be like academia bobblehead.

Deepa: Judith Butler bobblehead?

Cameron: Judith Butler bobblehead. It's like, not the worst thing, though. Like, I'd be like, okay.

Deepa: I’m trying to think of like an academic in gender who is famous enough outside to like get a bobblehead, and I feel like it would probably be Judith Butler.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, like her name comes up in crossword sometimes, like she's that level of famous.

Cameron: True, true. Potential bobblehead status.

Deepa: Still nerdy, but you don't necessarily have to be in academia to know who she is.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: Cool. So what I'm hearing is that we need merch for our podcast that includes custom bobbleheads.

Cameron: For everyone's profession.

Deepa: For everyone’s profession!

Cameron: Write us your profession.

Deepa: Everyone who comes on the podcast. I think everyone who comes on the podcast. I think it'd be too much just for, like everyone we know, you know.

Cameron: That's true.

Deepa: So, friends: you have to come on the podcast, if only to give a chickpea recipe, if you want a bobblehead.

Cameron: If you want a bobblehead! I guess we better get working on Dylan's.

Deepa: Yeah. Oh no, I have no idea who Dylan’s would be.

Cameron: Me either, me either. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out.

Deepa: Public health bobblehead! Like Florence Nightingale?

Cameron: Is Fauci public health?

Deepa: No, not Fauci! Ew! 

Cameron: Do you saw Florence Nightingale??

Deepa: Yeah, I don't know!

Cameron: I don't know.

Deepa: Or, oh, oh my god! I'm forgetting his name, the guy from Mountains Beyond Mountains. That's global health, I guess. But.

Cameron: What's Mountains Beyond Mountains?

Deepa: Oh, I, hmm! It's, uh… I am blanking on all specifics right now. It is a book about global health. And about this guy, Paul something, who like did a lot of stuff, I think, in Haiti.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: I think he opened a clinic in Haiti first? Yeah, this is appalling. Wow! Here's my literary analysis. Deepa can't remember anything.

Cameron: I mean to be fair this…

Deepa: I’ll link it in the show notes, I guess? It's a fine – it's a whatever book, I don't know. There's a lot of like white saviorism in it, for sure. I read it in high school. Yeah, anyway.

Cameron: Very funny.

Deepa: Is it time for Chickpeas Oh My Gosh?

Cameron: Chickpeas Oh My Gosh!

Deepa: So I have a recipe today. My only caveat is that I have not made it. I have eaten it at a restaurant, so we are reverse engineering this. But it's a salad so hopefully it shouldn't be too hard. I had this really good grilled stone fruit salad at a restaurant, and it had chickpeas, feta, candied pecans, pomegranate seeds, and I think it was grilled peaches. Maybe there are also… no, if it was stone fruits, it was peaches, for sure. Yeah. And it was with a balsamic vinaigrette that to me tasted pretty sort of simple, you know? Not a very complicated dressing.

Cameron: Mhm.

Deepa: And it was just really good. I mean, definitely, you know, you want everything to be really fresh. Other than the chickpeas, they can be canned. It was just a really good combination, and I was surprised because I had not really thought – I don't think I've eaten chickpeas in a lot of sweet things other than sort of Mediterranean-inspired or Southwest Asia-inspired stuff with pomegranates. But I hadn't had it with like other fruit before. So I am definitely gonna be trying to reverse engineer it myself. If I come up with any tips from that, I will report back. But so far you just get the ingredients.

Cameron: Where was this?

Deepa: This was at a restaurant that we went to for my sister's birthday, a seafood restaurant in Seattle.

Cameron: Nice.

Deepa: My dad actually ordered it, but I took a bunch of bites because it was very good, so.

Cameron: Wait. What was the base? It's chickpeas? Sorry.

Deepa: It's – there's not – I don't think there were any greens in it?

Cameron: Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. So it was like, the base was like the stone fruit and chickpeas.

Cameron: Interesting. 

Deepa: Yep. Or maybe there were some light greens. I don't actually remember. I'm sure you could add some light greens, and it would be nice, you know, like a spring mix kind of deal.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I feel like that seems like what would go with this, something mild in taste, you know, not like kale or arugula.

Cameron: Mhm. Interesting combo, yeah.

Deepa: Right? I was fascinated, and it was good, so.

Cameron: Nice. Well, thanks to your father for ordering it.

Deepa: Cool. Well, thank you. Everyone for listening. Go check out Heather Hogan's new publication – it's not her publication, but I'm gonna think of it that way now – which I will link in the show notes. And: act normal, bitches!

Cameron: Act normal, bitches! Byeeee.