Season 1 Finale: "Pretty Girls Make Graves"

Content notes: Apart from stuff in PLL itself, which we don’t usually warn for, we discuss age of consent laws and sexual abuse of minors from 14:55 to 20:50, including specifically the show Broadchurch beginning at 17:40 that includes discussion of murder of a child in the show by his abuser.

And once again: we stand in full support of Palestinian liberation and believe that Israel should end its genocidal violence and occupation. If you don’t agree, please fuck off.

Today we cover the season one finale, “For Whom the Bell Tolls”! We start by reading “reviews” of the podcast. We’re still upset with Hanna, we feel bad for Aria, and we’re glad Spencer gets a nap. We speculate about the period of time between Ian’s deaths and what Noel Kahn is up to. We spend some time reflecting on the season overall and our podcasting process. The podcast is taking a short break, but we’ll be back before you know it, bitches!

Episode Transcript: Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpea Recipe: Kale Ragout, but don’t forget to replace the cannellini beans with chickpeas!

Fashion Analysis: Our worst and best outfits!

Deepa’s Literary Analysis

• “For whom the bell tolls” was originally a quote from a poem by John Donne, then the name of a novel by Ernest Hemingway, but it’s probably unrelated to the episode except for the belltower
• Dharma Bums by Jack Kerouac is the novel that Toby is reading in one scene, and Deepa appreciated this scathing review of it by Irving Feldman
• The quote “pretty girls make graves” from Dharma Bums (which became the name of a song by the Smiths and a band) did feel very PLL

Things We Referenced Related to PLL

• Brant Daugherty, Janel Parrish (and a bonus), and Sasha Pieterse being on Dancing with the Stars
• The Brandi Carlile song that plays in the episode is “Hiding My Heart”, and the Florence + the Machine song at the end is, appropriately, “I’m Not Calling You A Liar”

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL

• Dharma and Greg (and Criminal Minds because of the actor who plays Hotchner)
• Clue and Yvette’s death being the scariest
• Broadchurch and its fucked up perspective on what sexual abuse/violence is or isn’t

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to Free Lawrence Jenkins! Lawrence is an incredible abolitionist, artist, farmer, political educator, organizer, & friend of ours who is currently incarcerated. Help his defense committee to fight for his release!

Transcript

Deepa: Welcome back to Don't Forget the Chickpeas, your favorite Pretty Little Liars podcast, for our last episode of the first season!

Cameron: I’m Cameron.

Deepa: And to start off today, I just wanted to sort of name that there's a fucking genocide happening? There's actually multiple fucking genocides happening? And there’s probably almost always genocide happening that we maybe aren't aware of, or aren't thinking that much about. And when I say that there's genocide happening, Palestine is the one that is really at the top of my mind, but there's also a genocide happening in the Democratic Republic of Congo, there's also in Sudan, Armenians have been ethnically cleansed from Azerbaijan, right? So there's a shit-ton going on, and a lot of it doesn't get – especially for people in the U.S. and our media and our, like, lack of comprehension around the rest of the world, right? Like we don't necessarily surface all of that very often. But certainly right now, Palestine is basically all I've been able to think about recently, and certainly talked about everywhere. And, you know, I think all of the episodes that have released – been released before this one were recorded before it started, but we've been putting like little notes in our in our show notes around our support for Palestinian liberation and wanting to be clear about that. I don't have like an easy segue here, like, obviously no answers, other than like we should fucking be against genocide, and we should fucking support Palestinian liberation. Like those are the answers, obviously. But yeah, I just wanted to name that and put that out there.

Cameron: Yeah, thank you. 

Deepa: Like I said, there's not gonna be a good segue –

Cameron: Bad segue.

Deepa: – bad segue, it's just – it's gonna have to be that. So a lot of podcasts, I think, like to start off by reading a review they've gotten recently, and you know – for some reason we have like stars on Spotify? Our friends are very nice. 

Cameron: Thanks, y’all!

Deepa: We don't have any reviews, but we do have texts from our friends, and I thought we could read a few of them! [both laugh]

Cameron: I love – as our reviews. [laughs] Okay, a reviewer says, “I was able to get caught up on DFTC, so that's fun, although I've never been frustrated listening to a podcast before. Because I want to be part of the convo, but it's a podcast, and I can't! Y'all are so funny. I love y'all’s theory that Mona is in love with Hanna. You're totally right.” Thank you. Reviewer.

Deepa: Okay, this is one that is responding to our episode with our fabulous guest star, Dylan, and our reviewer says, “I listened to part of your latest pod episode, on my way home today, with Dylan. It was such fun except for the part where water polo is basically warfare??” Which, I had the same reaction. “Geez! I obviously have no idea what you're talking about mostly. But the racism against Caleb made me [angry face emoji].” This person has not watched PLL but is familiar with Tyler Blackburn from the Roswell New Mexico reboot. So, “the racism against Caleb made me [angry face], and also deeply miss Tyler's face.” This person also grew up in the east coast, and says, “Can confirm that my bougie Pennsylvania College had not one but two coffee shops, though they were most certainly not outside.”

And also this reviewer studied French “just because it appealed aesthetically. There was not really any attention paid to utility in my memory [shrug emoticon].” [both laugh]

Cameron: Lol! Another reviewer – and this is also about our latest episode, or I guess, latest one that we've released at this current juncture, so a little confusing, but – with our guest celebrity star, Dylan, which had got rave reviews: “I'm LOVING the latest episode with you both and Dylan!!!!!! Y'all are the coolest! [heart and a little smiley face] “I also just got to the part of the podcast episode where Dylan is like, ‘But mom, Caleb fucks!’ [four laugh-crying emojis] AMAZING.” Thank you, reviewer.

Deepa: I appreciate that because Dylan kept telling us on that episode how funny we were, which is just like so flattering. So, Dylan: you were also extremely funny, and anonymous reviewers think so. One other thing I will add, from that same anonymous reviewer, is that they looked at the PLL MBTI and got Ella, which is the same as me!

Cameron: Ah, a lot of Ellas, a lot of Ellas. So yeah, this is our final episode of the first season, so we thought we'd just do a review round up for you.

Deepa: You can always send us reviews via text! 

Cameron: Or email if you don't have our numbers!

Deepa: If you aren’t – if for some reason there's someone listening to this that isn't one of our friends.

Cameron: Yes, we welcome…yeah, your feedback, thoughts, opinions.

Deepa: Shall we get into the episode? This episode, singular?

Cameron: Yeah! It’s called “For Whom The Bell Tolls”? 

Deepa: Mhm.

Cameron: Yeah, it's the final episode of season one. It was – it's a very dramatic episode, as we could expect for a finale, but I think…it wasn't dramatic in the sense that – because they, at this point, suspect Ian killed Alison. But I don't think they thought Ian was A, right?

Deepa: Right. Right.

Cameron: So like, that's not – that they got an A message to me at the end isn’t surprising at all.

Deepa: No!

Cameron: I don't – yeah, I don't know what we're confused about there. 

Deepa: No, it was weird, and as you say that it makes me to think, too, that there just wasn't much A presence in this episode until the end, right? 

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, it's very strange. And it is interesting, too, because in some ways, like, they're like playing a bit of an A role in this episode, right? They're trying to trap Ian in a way that involves, you know, anonymous texts, and them watching from across the room, and – [laughs]

Cameron: It does, it does. 

Deepa: But yeah, you're right, it – the ending was kind of strange, because it was like, what did you expect? Like that wasn't…did you think that A was only caring about Alison's murder getting solved? A care about tormenting you!

Cameron: A just wants you to suffer, I don’t – [laughs]

Deepa: [laughs] And may be in love with one of you.

Cameron: Who knows! Who knows. [both laugh] Yeah. So I think that was kind of eh, and then just like so much N.A.T. shit.

Deepa: So much N.A.T shit, yeah. It was – it was interesting to me that we got the reveal that Ian and Jenna are somehow collaborating, and that Jenna and Garrett are somehow collaborating.

Cameron: Just like that! 

Deepa: Yeah! And it kind of took some of the tension out of the like – I mean, it put a different tension, I guess, into the scene where Garrett is helping them in the woods – but nothing came of that different tension either, right? ‘cause he didn't do anything that they weren't expecting. So I was very confused about what we're supposed to think Garrett is doing in that scene, because presumably he and Ian are also – right, like, there's like a – the three of them are presumably all part of the N.A.T. What…did Garrett know that there was gonna be a decoy? Like, what, was he actually covering – like, was that intentional to cover for Ian so he could – but they didn't know that Spencer wasn't gonna be there, right, so it couldn't have been planned…

Cameron: Unless – who hit Spencer and Melissa's car? 

Deepa: Ooooh. Ooooh.

Cameron: Was it Mona? Was it Ian? Was it actually just a rando?

Deepa: That's a great question. You're right. You're right. 

Cameron: ‘cause we don't – we don't know. 

Deepa: Yes, yes, good point.

Cameron: And that – I don't know, he was acting wild this episode, so.

Deepa: He was. That's true, that's true. I guess then it comes down to, like, do we believe that his motive is partially Melissa?

Cameron: Which I kind of do. Yeah, I think…ewww, she called him “Daddy”. [laughs]

Deepa: [laughing] I knowwww, it was so gross! So gross! [both laugh] Oh, disgusting!

Cameron: Sorry, getting sidetracked. But – yeah, I don't know what we get – the Garrett of this was very weird.

Deepa: I think we're supposed to start being suspicious of him. I appreciate that Hanna was somewhat suspicious of him just inherently. 

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: Hanna knows what cops are fucking like! But beyond that, yeah, I don't know what we were supposed to think Garrett was doing. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. The car crash – I was trying to remember if the car crash is something we ever get any answers about, or if that's just left for us to speculate. 

Cameron: I totally forgot that it happened.

Deepa: Me too, me too!

Cameron: And I was like, Jesus Christ! 

Deepa: I did forget how Melissa loses this baby – oh, wait, Melissa doesn’t lose this baby now, does she? 

Cameron: [laughing] I don’t know!

Deepa: No, ‘cause, remember, she has to go somewhere else to a hotel, and like It happened to a hotel, and like – there's another thing where she goes to a hotel, but Veronica goes with her?

Cameron: Jesus. That's too many things. [both laugh]

Deepa: Okay, we won't try to unravel that now.

Cameron: I think you're right, though. I – yeah, I just get them all kind of mushed together.

Deepa: Totally. Yeah, that crash also reminds me very much of Murder, of How To Get Away With Murder.

Cameron: Absolutely. 

Deepa: For listeners who are maybe not as up on How To Get Away With Murder: Annalise gets hit in a car by Frank, who works for her, because – well, no, he doesn't get – she doesn't hit by Frank. Frank let someone know where she's gonna be and doesn't know that they're trying to kill her. And that's why Frank later kills Lila, question mark? Anyway, whatever.

Cameron: It's hard to say. But we do need to continue referencing How To Get Away With Murder in every single episode, so thank you. [both laugh] I think that's really consistency, there.

Deepa: They just have a lot of random things in common!

 Cameron: We're both – they're both shows we're just like incredibly compelled by, I think.

Deepa: That’s true, that’s true. [both continue laughing] I did think it was funny when Ian said, you know, to Spencer, threateningly, “Melissa would want me to take care of this.” I was like, lol, Ian, you do not actually know Melissa at all, she literally murdered someone for Spencer! Like, she cares about you, but I don't think this is what she would want.

Cameron: And the Hulu close captioning said “Melissa wouldn't want me to take care of this”!

Deepa: Weird!

Cameron: I heard “would”, but it said “wouldn't”, and I was just like, okay, Ian. 

Deepa: Getting to, like, the actual part where Ian, quote-unquote, “dies” – once again, I can't remember if he’s actually dead now.

Cameron: He’s not.

Deepa: He runs away, he doesn't get taken away by someone else? His body?

Cameron: No, I think he runs away.

Deepa: He runs away, okay.

Cameron: He might be playing dead.

Deepa: Right. And Alison is the one who pushes him, right? 

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: He says, “What are you doing here?” to the person who pushes him.

Cameron: Which is a wild thing to say to somebody you think is dead!

Deepa: Yeah! Like did he – did he know she was alive? What does it mean that he knows she's alive now? Right? 

Cameron: Oh, I didn’t even think about…interesting.

Deepa: Like even if we're presuming he didn't know – I don't know why he would know – yeah, what happens in this interim period between when he actually dies, where he knows that Alison is alive? Right? ‘cause like – the thing that he's afraid of is getting caught for Alison's murder! And, like, yes, he attempted to murder Spencer, so he’d still be in trouble. But if there's proof that he didn't do a murder…

Cameron: That might be like something that would be motivation for something.

Deepa: Right! 

Cameron: I see, I see. [laughs] I don't think that's something we've ever considered.

Deepa: [laughing] It's probably not something to show considered!

Cameron: Lol. 

Deepa: It is a very classic thing of, like, “It’s you??”

Cameron: But then to have that information and not be dead.

Deepa: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You know, we were watching Clue recently when Cameron was in town, and it makes me think of Yvette –

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: – which, as you said, is the scariest death in Clue. She very much does it a, “It's you??” Classic.

Cameron: Very. Going back to N.A.T. Club stuff, when they're watching the videos in the beginning of the episode, I think Spencer says like, “And we all know who's interested in like younger girls.” And it's like everyone! Everyone in this fucking town like, it's not just Ian.

Deepa: Like “literally everyone in this town”, that’s what I wrote!

Cameron: Literally everyone in this town! I’m glad we wrote the exact same thing. 

Deepa: Oh my god! Oh noooo. [both crack up]

Cameron: So yeah, I don’t think that narrows down anything.

Deepa: Not a fucking thing! Emily also said, “In some of these we’re just kids!” And I know what she means, but also, you're still kids. I'm sorry, you are! Like…

Cameron: Yeah. You’re sixteen.

Deepa: Ugh. Yeah, like, literally this episode we get confirmation about Garrett, that he's like abusing a teenager as well. So.

Cameron: [sighs] Yeah. Literally everyone.

Deepa: Which is probably, quote-unquote “okay”, because of the, you know, age of consent laws in Pennsylvania, and the fact that he's not her teacher. I don’t think cops count.

Cameron: Oh my gosh, remember one time we looked up all the age of consent laws?

Deepa: Yes, I absolutely remember, it was horrifying.

Cameron: And just, like, realizing, of course, what we should have assumed, that they're written for the person – like to think about how you can navigate these things.

Deepa: I think you were the one who noticed that, yeah, and it, like, changed – flipped a switch in my mind! It was incredible.

Cameron: Like, what?

Deepa: Yes, more about like liability and protection for the abuser, and that's how they're written. 

Cameron: For the abuser!

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. And I think we were specifically looking it up in the context of Pretty Little Liars, because – no, really! 

Cameron: Of course we were!

Deepa: Because of the because of the period where – as we're just starting now – where Ezra is not her teacher, and they're out in the “open”, quote-unquote or whatever – I mean they are, I don't know why I quoted that, they are out in the open! And it’s not supposed to be a problem, because – and like legally, maybe it's not! That's real. The age of consent in in Pennsylvania is sixteen, and it's only eighteen for authority figures, and I think authority figures are mentioned as like – I mean, fucking parents, obviously, but teachers, coaches, jail wardens at juvie, but probably not cops. Right?

Cameron: Ewww.

Deepa: Don’t you think?

Cameron: Probably not. 

Deepa: I don't really want to look it up again, because it's horrifying. 

Cameron: I don’t think we should look up the age of consent laws again.

Deepa: It was also horrifying how many of them are sixteen, because I just have in my head that eighteen is – I mean, people talk about eighteen as if it's like “you're legal”, right? Like from, I mean, from like an abusive perspective of like, “Oh, we could…”

Cameron: Like counting down until like stars are eighteen, and things like that. 

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. But in most of the states in the U.S., it is actually sixteen, and in some it's lower.

Cameron: And, like, it can always be lower with parental…whatever, like, parental – I don't want to say “consent”, but, like, “approval” or like – I don't know what the term is. But.

Deepa: Right, right. God. Yeah, they treat it just like getting a tattoo or something! Like. What the fuck?! Oh my god. Yeah. And then all the restrictions around how much older someone can be in a relationship with you, right?

Cameron: Yes! In a relationship with you. It's just how it's framed. Like, what's going on?

Deepa: No, I also mean as teenagers – I also mean, like, a seventeen-year-old and a fifteen-year-old. Right? That kind of thing. Which…makes me think of Broadchurch.

Cameron: Why are we talking about Broadchurch, Deepa??

Deepa: Because it was fascinating! Okay, we hated Broadchurch, but I do – I still, I wanna mention that Broadchurch is a fucking weird show where it was all about adults abusing children. Teenagers, but also children children. 

Cameron: Yeah. 

Deepa: And in a very weird way! It had a very weird, like, take on what is inappropriate and what is appropriate, and [unintelligible] go on about it. But! The reason I bring it up is because, the one place where they're actually really preoccupied with this is because a seventeen-year-old is dating a fifteen-year-old, and he just turned seventeen. Right? That's where they actually take it seriously. And it's like this whole red herring thing. But they're really scared about it. They're like, “We don't wanna be in trouble for this,” and it's like you shouldn't be. All these fucking adults who – like, what? This whole thing is about a child dying because of –

Cameron: Dying.

Deepa: Horrifying show. Did not watch more than the first season.

Cameron: No! We were so angry!

Deepa: We were so angry, but it just – the piece about the teenagers sticks with me because it is, I think, very characteristic– we're so much more worried about what teens are doing with each other than we are about adults abusing teens. Right?

Cameron: Yes! And not to like talk more about Broadchurch, but like, the person who murders this child, right, had like some romantic or sexual – or just like some urges, like whatever, towards this child, and wanted to reassure – I don't know if it was the parents or the cops, or whoever –

Deepa: It was the parents.

Cameron: – the parents? – that he “never laid a hand on this child”…when he murdered him! 

Deepa: He strangled this child, in fact. It was horrifying.

Cameron: Those are hands!

Deepa: Those are fucking hands. They define sexual abuse in a way that like minimizes the fact that this child was murdered! Like! What the fuck?

Cameron: And it's just like, does that like make it better for these parents who lost – what the fuck are you…?

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: Upset about that for weeks!

Deepa: Yes. Yes. I feel like that happened not long after we did this research about age of – because in my mind, those are like very tied, of how weird we fucking are about sex. And like how we have this – we have this idea that we're taking sexual abuse seriously because it's a problem. But it's actually twisted things so much, because it's giving power to the people who are the most powerful in the situation. And we've made it like…yeah, I don't know, just like framed it in this different sense than other types of violence in a way that actually protects abusers incredibly well. Right?

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah.

Deepa: So.

Cameron: God.

Deepa: We will have to put content notes about on the Broadchurch section, ‘cause it is awful.

Cameron: Yeah. It fucking sucks. 

Deepa: Fucking sucks, yeah.

Cameron: Okay! Back to PLL, please. [both laugh] Although it's all related, as we said earlier.

Deepa: It is! Broadchurch comes up in my mind a lot because of other things, and – yeah, anyway. Ughhhh.

Cameron: On a less serious note – and something we're always talking about – is like how fucking boring these bitches are, and by these bitches I mean Ezra and Aria. 

Deepa: Yeah! 

 Cameron: Him not being her teacher anymore “so it's chill” – these are all quotes – means they could “go to a coffee shop” and “go to a book reading”, is what he said. I hate them.

Deepa: [laughs] I hate them so much, and I love coffee shops and book readings, but I still hate them!

Cameron: Same!

Deepa: No, it's awful. And yeah, the faculty – him being at the faculty party is so gross, I hate it. I hate it. And they – I mean, I guess they kind of cover over it with a little bit of the Jackie plotline which I just – [both laugh]

Cameron: That's so silly.

Deepa: It is so silly. Oh, Jackie. Hi Jackie.

Cameron: Hi Jackie. Also, she was a TA like three months ago? Amazing stuff. I don't understand where Hollis gets their fucking professors. Everyone’s just barely making it, I don’t know.

Deepa: [laughing] I think you’re a lot closer to that than you think you are. You’re gonna be a professor in, like, a year.

Cameron: No! I have time! [laughs] You just stumble into it.

Deepa: Ugh! Okay, so when Aria confronts Ezra about Jackie in her room, she says, “Until today, you were the one guy who had never lied to me.” And I just felt so awful for Aria. You know?

Cameron: I felt so bad.

Deepa: It's horrible. It's horrible. And…it just never stops? It just never stops. I mean, I guess he stops lying to you at some point because he realizes that it doesn't matter if he tells you the truth, even if the truth is horrifying! Ughhhhhhh. Ughhh. Ugh.

Cameron: Yeah, that sucked so hard. Like – [sighs]

Deepa: Yeah. He’s – he’s – [also sighs]  I have no words for how much I hate him.

Cameron: No! 

Deepa: I hate him so much. Ughhh. Ugh.

Cameron: Our fucking Ezra, like – bucket, or whatever, is just always growing! We just throw more stuff into it.

Deepa: I know! I think every time I watch PLL, I hate him more, which – I just didn't even think there was the capacity to do that. But my capacity to hate him is endless, actually. [Cameron cracks up] And it doesn't mean I didn't hate him before. [laughs]

Cameron: [laughing] It finds new –

Deepa: Yeah! [both laugh]

Cameron: I like that for you. It just grows. A generative hatred.

Deepa: Okay, while we're getting horrible things out of the way: Hanna pissed me off a lot, did not apologize to Jenna –

Cameron: No!

Deepa: – made a prison rape…”joke”, question mark??

Cameron: Why are we always doing that shit?

Deepa: We're always doing that. We're always doing that. And yeah, horrible. She did have a nice moment with Emily, and that was about it. But I was pretty pissed about the Jenna scene. 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It was really bad. Like Jenna just gets like –

Cameron: – cornered.

Deepa: – cornered, and no acknowledgement from anyone – like they're all really awkward about it, but no acknowledgement from anyone that they like…harmed her, multiple times, right? Except when she says, “We all make mistakes. I'm still paying for yours.” And it doesn't really hit them. They're like, oh, we have the upper hand now, because we have proof of you abusing Toby. And that's horrible. 

Cameron: She did. She did. That's horrible. 

Deepa: Yes. Yes. And, that doesn't mean you get to slap her and not do anything about it. Like I'm sorry, you don't.

Cameron: Yeah, I – that scene was…I mean, it's the same shit where she just emerges, and it's sinister, right? She's just walking down the hall and going into a room. And that’s like –

Deepa: Yup. And I didn’t even remember, at that point, that they were looking to confront her, so I was confused about why it was newly sinister that she was walking in until they started to follow her. Yeah, okay. 

Cameron: Yeah, and like, to not identify themselves until, you know, she asks.

Deepa: Yeah, deliberately! Like she asks, “Who's there?” And Spencer says, “Me,” as if she’s the only one. Like, what? [sighs]

Cameron: She knows there’s not just one. And after she leaves – their conversation – the filming of it – the room is just spinning? And it's so weird. Like they're just talking in a circle, but the camera’s just like moving. I was like, what is this? Like are we like…?

Deepa: I didn’t notice that!

Cameron: I don't know. It's usually, like, normal times, but that was not normal. I was like – I don't know if we think we're, like, onto something important here, like, I don't know. 

Deepa: Hey, you noticed like a filming thing!

Cameron: Oh my gosh! Go me! [both laugh] I did watch this episode twice, because I didn't write anything about outfits the first time. So I had to watch it twice. So maybe that's…

Deepa: They weren't very noticeable, I feel like.

Cameron: Yeah. 

Deepa: Do we want to talk about outfits now?

Cameron: Sure. Look at that segue!

Deepa: [laughing] You had a natural one, and I made it unnatural by asking!

Cameron: Okay. So on my second watch of this episode, bad: Aria had a necklace that was disgusting. Like, weird pieces, maybe a bird on it? And then the shirt she had was normal, except it had feathers on the shoulders.

Deepa: [gasps] I didn’t even notice there were feathers, I thought that was her hair! [both crack up]

Cameron: Why – that was her hair??

Deepa: I thought maybe her hair was really light at the end?? [laughing] Okay, I'm not as observant about television as I think I am.

Cameron: This just disproves that theory we came up with that other time. It was feathers on the shoulders – 

Deepa: Oh my god!

Cameron: – of a regular striped shirt. 

Deepa: Yeah, I was just annoyed that the striped shirt didn't go at all with the necklace, right? It was a complete clash, and not in an Aria way, even. That top just wasn't very Aria – except, I guess, that it had feathers, that makes it Aria. [laughs]

Cameron: It does! [both laugh] Was that also your worst?

Deepa: Absolutely. Yeah. There just wasn’t a lot going on outfit-wise, and that one is very clear. My favorites were…I liked Spencer’s plaid blue, belted, that is in most of the episode, at least in the second half the episode. 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I thought it was fine. It's nice. Very Spencer. I think the only outfit that I really thought was like noticeable, though, was I kind of liked Aria's outfit for the mixer. 

Cameron: I loved Aria’s outfit for the mixer. I thought that was really nice.

Deepa: Okay! The qualification here is that I couldn't really see what was going on below the waist. Was it a long dress?

Cameron: I think it was long. 

Deepa: Okay, and it was like a black, lacy, short-sleeved dress over something else. Right? Like a green – it wasn't all one long thing. 

Cameron: Yes. I thought it was really nice. I – yeah. But again, we don't really know what was happening below the waist. [laughs]

Deepa: Yeah. I don't tend to love really long dresses like that. But that's okay, I can make an exception.

Cameron: It could be any length! We don't know. 

Deepa: [laughs] Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, there were not a lot of outfit changes, and maybe it was ‘cause we just did one episode. But. Yeah. I am glad we are very much in agreement, though! Yeah, I was just not doing a good job the first time. 

Deepa: No, I also wasn't, I had to go back. And I didn't rewatch the whole thing, but I went and scrolled to see if there were more than two outfits.

Cameron: Like, is there anything else here? No, okay.

Deepa:  I felt a little sad because the scene with Spencer and Toby was kind of cute, especially when she like falls asleep in his lap and he’s just playing with her hair.

Cameron: I thought that was so cute! She just took a little nap!

Deepa: She's not good at sleeping! So that was really nice. And it made me sad when she said, “I've never had a safe place to land,” because I wish Toby stayed safe. So. But that was my segue into a little bit of very disjointed literary analysis. 

Cameron: I was hoping you had something about the book Toby was reading! Or – mainly that, I guess.

Deepa: No, there's also the episode title, so I guess I'll start with that. 

Cameron: Oh, thank you.

Deepa: Yeah, the episode title, “for whom the bell tolls”: originally from a poem by sixteenth-century English poet John Donne, and made famous by the novel by Hemingway that is about Americans going to fight in Spain in the 1930s. I don't really think there's much to say there, other than that Hemingway is like smack in their favorite era of white dude writing.

Cameron: Mhm. 

Deepa: But I don't think the title means anything other than bells, so I don't – I just didn't like – I haven't read For Whom the Bell Tolls, I've managed to stay away from a lot of Hemingway as well. I've read some short stories, but I didn't care to do much more. [laughs]

Cameron: I think that is o-kay.

Deepa: So I did focus more on the book that Toby was reading, which is called Dharma Bums. And I want you to guess who it's by.

Cameron: I guess who it's by? It’s not a Kerouac, is it?

Deepa: It is a Kerouac, yeah! It’s absolutely a Kerouac! [both laugh] Good job. 

Cameron: Thank you, I didn’t even look that up!

Deepa: It’s a Kerouac, you’re spot-on. It’s after On the Road, it’s his next big thing, several years after On the Road. And it's just like – I haven't read any Kerouac either. I've stayed away, purposely, from all of the Beats, basically. [laughs] It’s like – as I gather from On the Road – it's kind of semi-autobiographical. And it's about, like, his learning about Buddhism and getting into Buddhism.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: Yeah, which is why it's called dharma, you know, dharma is a concept in Buddhism. But it's also about like – seems like kind of a road trip? Like there’s some hitchhiking around the west coast. He climbs Matterhorn Peak –

Cameron: Oh, sure.

Deepa: – and that, apparently, was based on his experience climbing Desolation Peak and being a fire lookout for a summer there, which I think is really funny! [both laugh]

Cameron: That is such a funny job.

Deepa: Right? 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And apparently it just, like, drove him wild, like he was just so bored.

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: [laughed]  Like he went up there to have a spiritual moment and just like –

Cameron: – didn’t! [laughs]

Deepa: And then later he wrote this book. But – I don’t know. I don't have really concrete thoughts about it other than – I was hoping to find some reviews on it – reviews about it, or thoughts about it – on literary sites that I follow. But I didn't, so I was just, like, googling random shit. And – you know, very, very much feels like…I think the fifties and the sixties were the genesis of, like, western weirdness about Buddhism, right? 

Cameron: Mhm. Mhm.

Deepa:  And co-optation. And it was just making me think about how we – okay. I'm not Buddhist. I  know a little about Buddhism. I'm fairly certain in saying that I know more about with this than the average American, at least the average white American.

Cameron: I’m sure.

Deepa: But – it’s just so fucking weird the way that we have taken this, like, religion – and there is certainly a piece of Buddhism that is characterized somewhat differently than other religions, but we have exceptionalized that difference in a way that, like, allows it to be not just secularized, but, like, completely divorced of any of its actual meaning, right? And just like all religions, I think, its origins were pretty political. It was a rejection of Hinduism when it started, and it was a rejection of Hinduism for a number of different reasons. Actually – a lot of people probably don't know, actually, that Buddhism began in India. 

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. It began in India, rejection of Hinduism – it wasn't only explicitly a rejection of casteism in Hinduism, but that was a piece.

Cameron: Oh, interesting.

Deepa: Yes, and there's still a lot of Buddhist practice in India, but I think it gets less attention, because it's much more, you know, prevalent in China, Japan, all of southeast Asia. There’s just more practice there. But yeah, it's just this weird, like – it's this weird way that we exoticize Asia, but also like, take it and make it completely western without any thinking about it. And there's just so much like wrapped up with the capitalism? Anyway.

Cameron: Hmmm.

Deepa: None of this is really related to PLL, but I do think it makes sense that Toby would be reading a book like that! [both crack up] Don’t you think?

Cameron: Yeah, like, going off on his motorcycle. 

Deepa: Exactly! He's got the Salinger, he's got the Kerouac…like, ugh. Eyeroll.

Cameron: Eyeroll, indeed! There’s this show – I couldn't tell you what channel it was on – called Dharma and Greg. [laughs]

Deepa: Yes! I have heard of that.

Cameron: You've heard of that? And it stars – you know, Greg is the businessman, who's Hotchner in –

Deepa: What? I didn’t know that!

Cameron: – yeah, in Criminal Minds. And then Dharma is white, like, hippie woman, and they're like an unlikely married couple. [laughs]

Deepa: Oh no, gross!

Cameron: And that's the show! 

Deepa: Gross!

Cameron: And I think that was my introduction to that word.

Deepa: Ugh. Yeah. Yeah. I found a – the essay that I enjoyed reading the most was just a, like, scathing review, and that included some stuff around, like, the cooptation of Buddhism, which I will link to in the show notes. I think most of the books that they reference are books that are – that I just – [sighs in frustration] – are in genres that I hate, right?

Cameron: Mmm.

Deepa: So I mostly really wanna find essays that, like, tear them apart, and once in a while, I’m successful. [laughs] So that is my literary review. Oh, no, no, I have one more thing. I have one more thing. I searched Dharma Bums and Pretty Little Liars just to see what came up. Obviously the first one was the PLL wiki – they have a list of all the books referenced in the show. 

Cameron: Nice.

Deepa: Which I'm not – which I didn't look ahead on, because I don't wanna cheat. I wanna notice it myself. 

Cameron: [laughs] We are doing pure literary analysis here.

Deepa: I didn't notice the Hamlet quote that time, that’s on me!

Cameron: That’s true, the quote on the gravestone.

Deepa: So, yeah. And when I searched that, a quote from Dharma Bums – I didn't look up the context of it at all – but a quote is “pretty girls made graves”. Which then became the name of a band. But it's also just like –

Cameron: Pretty girls make graves! Amazing! That's fun. 

Deepa: That’s my PLL connection. 

Cameron: Thank you. 

Deepa: It was hard to find out what the context of it was because I mostly got the band when I actually searched it.

Cameron: I guess that makes sense.

Deepa: Oh, there's also a song by the Smiths. So it’s just all over the place. All over the place.

Cameron: Lol Toby. [both laugh]

Deepa: Okay, I am gonna make a connection here.

Cameron: Do it! Do it!

Deepa: I'm just gonna make a connection about using characters of color that are absolutely divorced from their racialization. Right? I think – and because Emily is the character of color that we get the most, it, you know – and I think that happens to a lot of Asian characters. It is like – the way our anti-Blackness comes into play, it's harder for it to happen with – you know, it's like the hypervisibility thing. Black folks still tend to get racialized as Black on TV, even if the show isn't trying to. And a lot of Asian folks tend to get basically, like, de-raced in a weird way, right? But not really de-raced. So. That's my connection.

Cameron: Hmm. Yeah. ‘cause it's like an exoticization. But also, like you were saying a divorcing from any context, or any sort of background anything. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, and it’s weird with Emily because – Emily and Mona, to some extent, because both of those characters were white in the books, as far as I understand – and so I don't know how they cast them. My guess would be that they, you know, did post-racial casting and just opened it to everyone, and they found actors that they liked, and then they cast their parents. Because their parents are like –you will often see this thing – this happens Caleb, right, where you see characters of color where their parents aren't the same race as them, and they just never – and they're, like, assumed white or – like Spencer, obviously. But they didn't do that with Emily and Mona. So there's like – but that's, like, the only attempt at anything. Just the barest minimum. Ugh.

Cameron: Okay, I was just thinking we never see Maya's parents. 

Deepa: True.

Cameron: Do we see a Black adult? Is it just the FBI one?

Deepa: Okay, we have an FBI one. We have the swim coach.

Cameron: Swim coach. Okay, thank you. 

Deepa: And, of course, Eddie Lamb. [both laugh]

Cameron: I’m so sorry I forgot about you, Eddie Lamb. That was erasure. Eddie Lamb, thank you. 

Deepa: Those are the three I can remember. Yeah. But we don't ever get a Black parent, as far as I remember, despite there being numerous Black teenagers. Yeah.

Cameron: Curious.

Deepa: Yeah. I would have loved to see Maya’s, like, hippie parents that then sent her to juvie. Like, I'm just curious about them. 

Cameron: I don't understand that at all, I want to know more. God, yeah. I guess. Parents? [both crack up]

Deepa: Yes! Look at us!

Cameron: It's like we've been doing this for a whole season!

Deepa: I was a little…I felt like there wasn't that much parent emphasis either. 

Cameron: No, no parents.

Deepa: Yeah, I was – I hate Byron always, and I thought it was shitty that he asked Ella to come to a faculty party where she would, presumably, have to see Meredith and pretend to be happy with him, right? Like –

Cameron: And probably have to host! Like do work!  

Deepa: Right! That’s true, because Aria’s like, “I’ll host with you.” He doesn't even know how to pick out a menu. 

Cameron: No, he can't do anything.

Deepa: Yes. Good point. Good point. So yeah, I gave Byron worse. But also maybe Pam and Wayne for wanting to take her to Texas. But we know that doesn't happen, so maybe I wasn't as angry about it. 

Cameron: Yeah, I had like – just like moments, ‘cause there was nothing like – really. Yeah, Pam, I was like, okay, you're trying to, you know, take your, you know, whatever. And this is not what I really wanted, but Veronica smiled when Melissa called Ian “daddy”. So I did write that as a negative for her. Not – [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh no, that sucks because I didn't notice that, and I gave Veronica best. 

Cameron: No, she did great in the majority of the episode. I just was like nnngh! You know, it's not your fault that you did…yeah, I thought she did mostly really great. That, I was like, what?

Deepa: Yes, and if you isolate the way that she criticized Spencer for her joke – if you isolate that from everything else that she's always criticizing Spencer for, it wasn't a bad criticism, right? Like that was a horrible thing for Spencer to say. And she said it in a, like, kind and – like, you know, she said it in a way that just named what it was.  

Cameron: No, I thought Veronica did amazing most of the episode. But I noticed that on my second watch.

Deepa: Ewww, Veronica! You can be excited about having a grandkid, but you don't have to be excited about Ian. Ugh. Peter wouldn't have smiled. Peter would have gagged. 

Cameron: What’s he doing these episodes? I know we get a lot less clarity on what the parents are up to, but I mean –

Deepa: At some point we might be stuck at a place where we only get a couple of parents per episode. So we will have a struggle to do this, but –

Cameron: Oh jeez.

Deepa: We'll see. We'll see how it goes.

Cameron: We might have to amend this. It’s just going to be name a parent! Was there a parent this episode?

Deepa: I’m sure we can find something else to rate if we need to, if we get thin on parents.

Cameron: It is a problem later down the line.

Deepa: This is a completely random thing, but I kind of loved that Garrett's family watches Dancing with the Stars purely because they have been so many PLL actors on Dancing with the Stars! 

Cameron: Who aside from Mona?

Deepa: Brant Daugherty, who plays Noel Kahn. 

Cameron: Noel Kahn!

Deepa: Oh, I meant to look up if there were any others. But definitely the two of them. Yeah.

 Cameron: Oh, that's fun. I just only thought Janel –

Deepa: Janel Parrish, yeah. I’m googling Pretty Little Liars + Dancing with the Stars…Sasha Pieterse apparently. 

Cameron: Ah nice!

Deepa: I wonder when that was? Yeah, so at least three, you know. That’s a lot.

Cameron: And Garrett's family is invested. 

Deepa: Yeah, apparently Sasha Pieterse was in 2017. Yeah, I think those might be the three. Janel Parrish – I feel like I've seen two clips, and they were great, both great. So we’ll link them in the show notes. 

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: In one of them Noel Kahn is in the audience watching. So that's fun.

Cameron: That’s cute. We had some silly Noel Kahn this episode. Okay, first of all, I think Logan Reed, the decoy man, looks very similar to Noel Kahn, like could be a brother, another brother of the Kahns.

Deepa: Interesting. Okay. The hair is very different.

Cameron: It’s just something about the eyes. And then – so I wrote that down, and then we see Noel Kahn in the end! He’s just in the, like –

 Deepa: Why is he there? We haven’t seen him in a while.

Cameron: I don’t know! What is he doing? Just hanging out at the church?

Deepa: You know what? I would love if this was as thought out: maybe he’s there because Ali is there. Maybe he picked her up and dropped her at the church.

Cameron: Oh my god! I love that! They, like, actually – like –

Deepa: I’m obsessed with the fact that he’s helping her, and like we don't know when it starts or anything. We just have to –

Cameron: – go with it.

Deepa: Something we can keep an eye out for. 

Cameron: Thank you. There was a moment – I laughed out loud – during this episode, in which, when Hanna and Emily are having their moment on the porch. Hanna was like, “Oh, your mom's like packing up boxes.” And Emily’s like “I wish we could pack her up.” [both crack up]

Deepa: That's so funny. It was so funny. Emily!

Cameron: I just didn't expect it!

Deepa: Oh, man. It's funny how they brought Lucas back in just at this moment where he's gonna help Hanna with Caleb, because I was thinking recently, it's weird that Lucas never interacted with Caleb before he left. Because in my mind they were sort of friendly all along, not just around Hanna? I mean definitely around Hanna. But you know what I mean, like I thought that they like may have interacted and then they didn’t. So he just like goes and decides because he hears Mona wants to – he just wants to be a nice friend, I guess. He’s finally, finally started being a good friend. And then at some point, he'll be just, like, a weirdly overly, overly-attentive friend. Yeah, that just it felt like it came out of nowhere. But sure. Okay. 

Cameron: It did, because they had to remind us in the like “previously on” who Lucas was.  

Deepa: That's true.

Cameron: Because we hadn’t really like talked about him since, like, Hanna was in the hospital,

Deepa: Yeah exactly. Mona going immediately from making intersexist jokes about him, to his face, to “apologizing”, quote-unquote? Mona.

Cameron: Her apologizing was like, “I can transform you into someone that Hanna would want to date”. What?! So like, “I could make you a man.” Okay, Mona. 

Deepa: Oh my god.

Cameron: It’s just so…I don't know.

Deepa: Yeah, I appreciated Mona’s meddling because it's funny, but I do not appreciate that. Fucked up, Mona.

Cameron: Fucked up. I’m glad there is a Brandi Carlile song, obviously. But unfortunately it started at an Ezra/Aria scene which I just had to edit out in my brain and move it to the Hanna scene. 

Deepa: Can you remind me which one it was?

Cameron: It’s “Hiding My Heart”. It's one of her like old ones. Yeah. Good stuff.

Deepa: Yeah. There was, at the end I think there was a Florence song that sounded like Florence and the Machine, right? 

Cameron: Yes, that sounded very much like Florence and the Machine. 

Deepa: That was well-placed, I feel like, well-chosen as a song. Not just the lyrics – like, I think the mood of it felt very – yeah, I don't know, different than a lot of the music they choose usually. So.

Cameron: Usually it doesn't like have any impact on the scene. 

Deepa: [giggling] Except for you know what it does?

Cameron: When?

Deepa: When they play the Sting “I'll be watching you” song.

Cameron: Oh no!

Deepa: Do you remember what I'm talking about? “Every Breath You Take”.

Cameron: “Every Breath You Take”! 

Deepa: Which they play over like a montage of both Aria and Ezra having sex and another couple having sex, question mark? I’m pretty sure?

Cameron: Yes! I had forgotten about that, so I –

Deepa: It’s a while from now. In my mind it is inextricably connected to the How to Get Away with Murder scene where they – I don't remember what song they use, but they intercut a sex scene with an autopsy. 

Cameron: That scene is amazing. [both laugh] Woo!

Deepa: Do you want to do some general reflections? 

 Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: On, I think, the season of the show and the season of our podcast, since we're going to be taking a little bit of a break – not sure quite how long? But, just wanted to get a little time between. A little hiatus.

Cameron: A little hiatus.

Deepa: For so long, you know – our feelings about Pretty Little Liars are so complicated and we hate so many things about it, and we tell each other that all the time, but I’ve taken a lot from being able to sort of put it out there, and even hear a few other people’s reactions to it, and thoughts. And I think we’ve talked about things that we haven’t really talked about before too. It makes me really thankful for this space and being able to talk to you about it. 

Cameron: Yeah, it does feel nice to not just be like in a hater bubble, I would say, and have more of an open conversation. Yeah, I think that’s – yeah. I feel like our analysis, even, has grown a lot. It feels like, yes, I'm just having a conversation with you right now, but like it's more…it’s not like limited to that in a way that's fun? And like, I don't know, like I like having that like openness. And it also feels nice to just like kind of be creating like an archive of friendship, is what I would call it. 

Deepa: Which to be honest was my reason for wanting to do this podcast in the first place!

Cameron: There you go!

Deepa: I didn’t really think anyone would listen to it – I thought it would just be fun to do, and then we’d have it. 

Cameron: And it is fun to do. And we have like three listeners! So.

Deepa: Thank you, listeners. 

Cameron: Thank you, listeners, for coming along.

Deepa: We don't only do it for ourselves. We do make it for you. I just didn't know if we were ever gonna have any listeners.

Cameron: I think things – like I just notice – you don't listen to yourself talk that often in real life. I think we've said this before, but we are, like, maybe too active of listeners. It’s very funny to notice that because it's not just cross talk. It’s us being like, “Uh- huh.”

Deepa: I was trying to limit it today because it seemed like we had a lag, so I thought it would go – but it was so awkward! I kept just like nodding vigorously at you where I would usually make a noise.

Cameron: Yeah, so we’re working on things. 

Deepa: We also laugh too much. 

Cameron: We laugh too much. 

Deepa: Repeat what the other person said a lot. 

Cameron: Ohh, that's one of our main modes of communication, apparently.

Deepa: I talk really circularly, and Cameron doesn’t finish sentences.

Cameron:  I don't. They just peter off into the…I hope Deepa will pick them up.

Deepa: I still know what you mean. I don’t know that I pick them up in the sense that I don't know if I, like, finish the sentences. I just know what you mean, so it’s okay! [laughs] When we were started making this podcast, and you told me that you were listening to, I think it was You're Wrong About, or some other podcast, where they talked about how they have separate microphones, right? So they just separate the dialogue from each other, and that's why there's not cross-talk. And we know nothing about making a podcast. I don't even know how to do that! I know, like, the basic-est sound editing. So that's why we have so much cross-talk, because we don't have separate mics, we're just recording this on zoom.

Cameron: That made me feel a lot better because it was like their audio engineer talking. And I was like, oh, yeah, we don't have those, and we don't –

Deepa: I’m the audio engineer! 

Cameron: Sorry, we have Deepa! But like the idea that they're having the same cross-talk, they just take it apart – I was like, oh okay! 

Deepa: I don’t care enough to learn how to do that. I did realize there is one credit that I don't think we've ever given in the course of this podcast, which is our graphic designer.

Cameron: Our graphic designer does not want any credit!

Deepa: I don’t mean by name. I just want to say, our graphic designer is great.

Cameron: Our graphic designer is great! And is such a perfectionist that isn’t happy with the icon as it is now. 

Deepa: Yes, I'm not gonna say who it is. I just love it, so I have to credit it, even if – you don't even have to tell our graphic designer that I mentioned it, if that is gonna be a problem. But the listeners should know that I love the graphic design, our logo of the chickpea can with an A on it. And our graphic designer matched the font of the “don't forget the” to the Pretty Little Liars font. It's amazing!

Cameron: It's amazing. And like took a long time to do font things. We're very appreciative. Yes.

Deepa: I don't think we have any other credits, because we just make this ourselves. 

Cameron: We thank all our reviewers.

Deepa: Oh, we thank my father for sharing a recipe once.

Cameron: Hell yeah! That was great.

Deepa: I think we should have more guest recipes sometimes. If people don't – if people don't care about being on PLL, but they just want to come in for a guest recipe. 

Cameron: Yeah, I think that would be fantastic. They don't all have to be surprises.

Deepa: It's been really nice to watch it in a way where I'm thinking about it so much, because I think – it kind of reminds me more of when we watched this show for the first time, in a way. And partially that is because it was airing at the time, so we were also, like, reading reviews about it; we were, you know, we constantly reference that we were reading Heather Hogan's episode reviews. We were like – there was, like, stuff going on. We weren't even really in the online fandom, but we still like – through just like general osmosis, like, found stuff about it. And I remember reading articles about – like that article about the dead girl dead girl trope and stuff. And so I think since then, since, like, 2013 or 14 when we started watching it, our rewatches didn't have that aspect, right? Like we were talking about it, and we were thinking about it, but it was mostly just our conversation. And it is kind of fun to me – I really enjoy doing the literary analysis, and I enjoy that you’re doing the sports analysis and the gender analysis, and it's really fun to bring that in. It's not just noticing different things in the show, necessarily, but it's sometimes reframing them, or giving them more context, or referencing them to other things. So I appreciate that. And I think we will only have more of that. There's gonna be more sports, definitely more literature, and so much more gender. 

Cameron: Woof. Yeah.

Deepa: Always gender. 

Cameron: There will be more gender. Also, like, we don't do the transcripts, I don't think, for anyone, but doing the editing – because we just get them from zoom, so they're pretty rough – but like doing the editing of that, I think, has like taken me out of some like, I have very like social science training in which, like an interview transcript is like, you preserve everything. You preserve the pauses, you preserve the starts and stops of trying to say a word or a sentence, and I think like that's been really nice, to just be like, “Fuck it!”

Deepa: I love that for you. I wish I could say that my attempts at getting it the way that I like it have relaxed, but they have not, and I don't have a social science background. I just am doing it a way that I like to do it, and I’m too invested! Maybe that is something I can try to do next season, is, relax a little more, because I don’t even know if anyone is reading them.

Cameron: On the transcripts? Yeah. No one is reading them. If you are reading them, text us or email us to let us know. 

Deepa: We would love to know. I do like the process of doing them because I think it encourages me to revisit things and think about them. But I can probably be a little less nitpicky about it.

Cameron: I think you're definitely – and this is something we probably knew before doing this project together – like, you're just a lot more detail-oriented than I am. And I appreciate that, I do, like as I feel –

Deepa: No, it's true. It's true with the audio editing too. There was one episode where we had some audio problems, and whenever I would like give Cameron an example to see how rigid I should be with the audio editing, Cameron would always be like, “Yeah, that's fine. You can keep that weird noise, and it doesn't matter.” And I’m like, “No! I will not.” So…Deepa can relax. And Cameron already learned some things about not doing it the way that you've been used to doing it. So.

Cameron: Learning, growing. Yeah, I do think that's been such a nice like – it's not like a frivolous project, but it is a project that is only what we want it to be. Which is – not a lot of things in life are that! And it's very like nice to just have that space.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I like that it's something that is very self-motivated. Right? Like no one cares if we get this out on time, no one cares – 

Cameron: Deepa cares! 

Deepa: I care! 

Cameron: We are on a deadline!

Deepa: We will stick to our schedule! I think that's nice, because sometimes – there have been definitely a lot of periods of my life where I feel very much like I only do things because I have an external pressure to do them. And it's really nice to be creating something that is just coming from us, you know? There's nothing else – like it's really just that we want to do this, and so we’re doing it! I think having structure helps me, personally, which is why I wanna stick to it. But the stakes are so low if we’re late with the podcast. 

Cameron: The stakes are incredibly low. Yeah. Yeah, it's just been really fun.

Deepa: Yeah, yes, yes, I am excited for season two. I think it will be nice to take a little break, because we'll come back fresh. And yeah, we're – we'll be back soon and excited to get into like, yeah, there's just like a lot of – one thing about season one is, I'm constantly forgetting how much we're getting introduced to things, right? I like a lot of second seasons of shows generally, because they are deepening knowledge that we already have, rather than like everything is exposition about who this person is. Right? 

Cameron: Yeah, and like to actually get an A reveal is very exciting. Yeah. I think, you know, they make us, you know, earn it. But –

Deepa: Yeah. Well, do you have a last-of-the-season recipe for us? 

Cameron: Yeah, a season-ending chickpea recipe. The recipe is actually for Cannellini Bean and Kale Ragu. Which I think I made for the first time in like 2018 or something, and I remember so I was like living by myself and trying to cook, or whatever, and I remember calling you to be like, “I made this,” and you were like, “It would be so much better with chickpeas.”

Deepa: Really? I don’t remember this at all!

Cameron: And so that's how I make it now!

Deepa: Have you ever made this for me? 

Cameron: I don't think so. It's just, it's so nice. It's just like a head of kale, garlic, tomatoes, and you cook it down with chickpeas, and then you eat some bread with it. Very simple, very, you know, hearty but yes, you were right. It is better with chickpeas.

Deepa: That sounds really nice. It’s so funny, I don’t remember that at all. ‘cause why have cannellini beans in the house if you're only gonna make –

Cameron: Well, I didn't have them in the house. I had to go out and buy cannellini beans!

Deepa: Yeah, there we go. Whenever Cameron and I lived together, we bought chickpea in cases. Cases of cans for everyday use, and then also dried for my more ahead-of-time use. Okay. I think we should close out, saying it together.

Cameron: Really? Even though we have a lag? We’re going to risk it.

Deepa: Even though we have a lag. Yes. It's the end of the season. We have to!

Cameron: Okay. Three, two, one…

Both sort of in unison: Act normal, bitches! 

Cameron: Bye!  

Deepa: Bye!