Episodes 1.20 & 1.21: "I Used to Love Algebra"

Once again: we stand in full support of Palestinian liberation and believe that Israel should end its genocidal violence and occupation. If you don’t agree, please fuck off.

Today we’re covering episodes 1.20, “Someone to Watch Over Me” and 1.21, “Monsters in the end.” We discuss dolls, ableist violence, dentist gossip, and being “allies” in our high school GSAs. We try to remember things about the Jackie storyline and lament the fact that the N.A.T. Club doesn’t actually have anything to do with A or the plot. The episode ends with Deepa bringing up something ridiculous Cameron did in 2020. Unlike Cameron, act normal bitches! 

Episode Transcript: Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpea Recipe: *A Deepa depression meal special* – put some chickpeas inside a quesadilla!

Fashion Analysis: Our best and worst outfits!

Deepa's Musical Analysis

• “Someone To Watch Over Me” is a song from the 1926 musical Oh, Kay! by the Gershwins
• Broadway 2 A Day was a challenge that started on tiktok by voice coach Stacy Moscottin in 2021, where she and thousands of other people following along (including Deepa for a few months) listened to two Broadway soundtracks a day for a year! The only thing that comes up online for it now is a single podcast episode made about it lmao but it still seems to be going on discord

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL

• Books that romanticize running away, like My Side of the Mountain and The Boxcar Children
• Alison Williams sinisterly drinking milk in Get Out
• The father of fractals is Benoit Mandelbrot
• The (god)father of recycling is Armen Stepanian, and the sculpture with a dog who has his face is People Waiting for the Interurban in Fremont, Seattle

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to Free Lawrence Jenkins! Lawrence is an incredible abolitionist, artist, farmer, political educator, organizer, & friend of ours who is currently incarcerated. Help his defense committee to fight for his release!

Transcript

Cameron: Okay, hello, hello! Welcome back, everybody. This is Don't Forget the Chickpeas, your favorite Pretty Little Liars…podcast, I'm just gonna say podcast, even.

Deepa: Oooooh, not only rewatch.

Cameron: Yeah, just podcast. I'm Cameron.

Deepa: I'm Deepa.

Cameron: And today, we watched episodes 20 and 21 which are called “Someone to Watch Over Me” and “Monsters in the End”. Do we…?

Deepa: I don’t get either of those references. If they're references. Do you? I guess I should have googled them.

Cameron: Yeah, you're in charge of words.

Deepa: [laughing incredulously] I’m in charge of words! That seems like quite an inflation from literary analysis to just words.

Cameron: Fair, fair.

Deepa: I will google them right now.

Cameron: “Monsters in the End”, like –

Deepa: “Monsters in the End” gets you the Pretty Little Liars wiki.

Cameron: And nothing else? Cool.

Deepa: So I think they just made that up. Yep, it's all Pretty Little Liars stuff. “Someone to Watch Over Me” ...that might be something. I think that's a song. Okay, that's a song from – oh! That’s a song by the Gershwins? From the 1926 musical Oh, Kay! Wow! I didn't know we might have musical analysis.

Cameron: Is that one you watched on your every musical watching year?

Deepa: You know, I probably did listen to it! Holy shit! Yeah, listeners, sometime in covid times, I don't remember when – it must have been 2021, because it was a full year – there was a TikTok – a thing that started on TikTok – which was called Broadway Two A Day. Which was this – started by this singer/voice trainer who was going to explore all of the history of Broadway by listening to two Broadway soundtracks every day in chronological order from like – I don't even remember from what year to – oh, you know what, though? No, I probably didn't listen to it, because I think it was from 1950 to now. I think it was too much to include earlier stuff.

Cameron: Aww.

Deepa: But yeah, anyway, so – and then it became this like whole thing where, like, people were doing it, they started a discord for it, and like hundreds of people were doing it. And I did it from like about January to like March or April. Which is pretty significant. But also means that all the ones that I hit were like the early, whitest, racist-est ones! [laughs]

Cameron: Yeahhhh.

Deepa: There were a few gems, but I mostly didn’t get to exciting ones. [both laugh] Yeah. So this is called Oh, Kay! and it's O-H comma K-A-Y. I assume it's about someone named Kay.

Cameron: Oh. Interesting.

Deepa: we'll link to this. But I did not read about this beforehand, I’m so sorry.

Cameron: [laughing] It’s okay, you don’t have to be in charge of all words. That seems…I should contribute something.

Deepa: I’m just wondering what it has to do with Pretty Little Liars.

Cameron: Is it just, like, old-timey and shit?

Deepa: Maybe. This does seem to be sung to a rag doll, so that could be a link!

Cameron: We love dolls.

Deepa: We're not really into doll…doll…Peak Doll yet. We've not really seen any dolls except for in Jenna's room.

Cameron: Wait. There's someone to watch over the rag doll, or the rag doll’s watching over a person?

Deepa: No, no, sorry. It's just that – it's just that the person singing the song is singing to her rag doll. It's not like – it’s not about the rag doll, she’s just like alone, so I guess she's singing to the rag doll instead of to nobody.

Cameron: Got it, got it. [both laugh]

Deepa: That is – that is all I got at the moment.

Cameron: Weird.

Deepa: Okay, this is weird. The wikipedia article says the rag doll was “described in male gender terms by George Gershwin in 1934, saying, ‘I don't know where he is now. He certainly did his part well.’ Gershwin said he found the doll in a toy shop in Philadelphia where the play was in development!”

Cameron: Okay, so it is – [both crack up] It was in a doll hospital.

Deepa: It was in a doll hospital! Or maybe it had to go to the doll hospital after the play and that’s why he doesn’t know where it is.

Cameron: [laughing] “Male gender terms”.

Deepa: “Male gender terms”. That would be the funniest link, and I would think that only we thought of it. But maybe that's the link, I don't know.

Cameron: I think we're gonna have to stick to that right now, because we don't have anything else. Yeah.

Deepa: That’s true. That’s true.

Cameron: Thank you. Thank you.

Deepa: Back to business.

Cameron: Yeah, sorry.

Deepa: Wow, getting off track early.

Cameron: Immediately, like, before anything else. [both laugh] Aside from that, did you have any thoughts or inklings or things you'd want to start with?

Deepa: I think my high for these episodes, if I had to give one – we don't have to play High Low, but I just thought of it in these terms –

Cameron: Thank you.

Deepa: – you are not prepared, I’m sure.

Cameron: Never prepared.

Deepa: I don't think we planned to play High Low this time. But: episode 20 didn't have Ezra in it, and I didn't even notice until he came back in 21, but it was blissful. I mean, other things were rotten in episode 20, but that part was great. So.

Cameron: I wrote – we had – like when he showed up, I was like, oh, we had an Ezra-less episode!

Deepa: Exactly. Exactly.

Cameron: Oh my god! And it was – I didn't even notice, ‘cause I was just so happy.

Deepa: Exactly. It was so nice. I mean – yeah. Yeah, it was so nice. I don't think there's a ton to say about Ezra anyway, hopefully. There's some stuff to say about Aria, but – Aria and Ezra, like in her relationship with Ezra – or he didn't really do much, so that's good.

Cameron: Yeah, that’s not too bad.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Except for the Jackie plot line, which I was just like, eyeroll. I don't think we need to talk about it.

Cameron: I just couldn’t care.

Deepa: It's like – it is not even like very relevant, like it just it lasts for like three minutes and then goes away, and then…

Cameron: …she pops back in a little bit.

Deepa: Yeah, and it just doesn't matter. And I think mostly I was just irritated at Aria for them being in the middle of this conversation about Spencer's potential arrest, and Hanna's heartbreak over Caleb, and suddenly, she's like, “I saw his website page!” Also weird, why is it called “website page”?

Cameron: [scornfully] “Website page”? We couldn’t come up with anything else?

Deepa: Like I know they can’t say “Facebook”, but they can make up a Facebook, right?

Cameron: They could. His website page –

Deepa: Website page!

Cameron: – sounds very like something your grandparents say.

Deepa: Absolutely. Also, she just – I know we watched this happen, but she just like bumped the computer and it turned on. That's not real!

Cameron: It wouldn't…no. It wouldn't open to his website page, logged in.

Deepa: No! Laptops even in 2011, like, were sturdy!

Cameron: [laughs] Sturdy.

Deepa: So that was annoying about Aria. And the paper bag scene was annoying. And that's about it, that's all I wanna say, really. I actually skipped the paper bag scene, so.

Cameron: Good job.

Deepa: Did anything important happen?

Cameron: Absolutely not. In the paper bag scene? No, no. For lows, would you have put Hanna slapping Jenna?

Deepa: Abso-fucking-lutely.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I always forget about that scene, and I fucking hate it. It's horrible! I kind of scrolled through it as well, because I know it happens, and it's horrible. Yeah! It's – it's – it's – [sighs] it's so – it's so fucking bad. Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: It's just like – like it's on a continuum of ableism and violence. And then that is just like the – not the outcome of that, but just kind of like an overall escalation, right?

Deepa: Yes. Yes. Well, and it's – and it's taking advantage of her blindness, right, in order to put her in a vulnerable situation, which is what people do with disabled folks, that's how they make disabled folks vulnerable to violence. But there's just no like – no reckoning with that at all.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Also, you can be mad at Caleb, but Jenna trying to keep her eye on what you all are doing – when, again, you blinded her, and you have no evidence that she did anything to Alison – is so fucked up. So fucked up. You need to understand why – and, you know, Spencer even says to Toby, I think in this episode, like, “You didn't happen to us, we happened to you,” or something?

Cameron: Yeah!

Deepa: So now that sympathy is extended to Toby – which is good, I think it's good that it is, he also has suffered from this – but not to Jenna. It's just never going to be to Jenna.

Cameron: Ugh!!

Deepa: No. And, like, obviously Jenna's done fucked up shit too, but so have they, and she hasn't done fucked up shit to them, really. She's done fucked up to Toby, pretty much, and it's just – it's horrible.

Cameron: It's horrible! And it's like – it makes the other things in that episode, and, like, Hanna's experience of her heartbreak, just like – I don't know. It's hard to, like, hold those two together.

Deepa: Yeah. I think that coupled with the podcast episode when we had our friend Dylan on, and we were talking about Caleb being in survival mode and how that affects power dynamics with Hanna – I think that was also coming up for me when he has to leave. Right? Because, yeah, it sucks that Hanna's privacy feels violated, but he should also still be able to sleep somewhere?

Cameron: He needs a place to sleep.

Deepa: Yeah. And that is – that is what's at stake for him, and I think both of those things together especially just made me, like, really fucking pissed with Hanna. And, like you said, it’s hard to hold the other parts of it that, you know, I want to feel sympathetic towards her about. But. And again, I think I think it's fair to be mad at Caleb. But the rationale behind Jenna hiring him – again, like, the fact that this is happening to you is a result of your own consequences. The fact that it came from Caleb is his fault, right?

Cameron: Yeah, that's kind of shitty. Yes. And like…

Deepa: But it didn't come out of nowhere. Again, it came out of Caleb being in survival mode. He needed money, so of course he was – and like he said, he didn't know these people. He was gonna, like, take money from rich kids –

Cameron: Whoever! Yeah.

Deepa: – in their feuds. And…yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, no, the power imbalance, just like the – he said he gave the money back?

Deepa: Yeah!

Cameron: Which, like, that's money he needs!

Deepa: Yeah! Especially now that he’s leaving, right?

Cameron: Yeah, to go to fucking Arizona.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And we have like – I don't know. We're like juxtaposing that with like Spencer talking about running away, which is just like interesting.

Deepa: Ohhh. Hmmm. I didn’t think about that…

Cameron: I didn't either, until right now, just like – her just being like, “What's running away like?” and Toby's like, “Cold.”

Deepa: Yeah!

Cameron: Jesus Christ, guys!

Deepa: Seriously! I do think it's very realistic, right? Like having come from, you know, similar levels of privilege, and just like security around housing that Spencer has – running away is very romanticized for middle class kids will never need to unless they like – unless certain circumstances happen, and even if they do, they likely have more safety nets than most kids who run away. Yeah. I don't want to pretend – obviously, there's – middle class kids can still suffer abuse and all the – a lot of things that do lead to them running away. But often they have family members that they can go to, or friends –

Cameron: – other places to be –

Deepa: – resources. Yeah. So for running away without knowing where you're going, knowing where you're gonna sleep, needing money, like – it's super romanticized right? It's like, I read My Side of the Mountain and now I’m gonna go in the mountains now and live in a tree!

Cameron: [cracks up] Oh my god.

Deepa: [laughing] Or I’m going to go live in a boxcar, like The Boxcar Children!

Cameron: Fucking Boxcar Children, oh my god.

Deepa: Right?

Cameron: Absolutely!

Deepa: There were two kids in my second-grade class who ran away during recess. And it was such a big deal, you know? They made it like three blocks, right, like – but it was such a big deal.

Cameron: They ran away during recess?

Deepa: Well, I mean, that's when they left, and so no one really noticed until everyone came back to the classroom, right?

Cameron: Ohhh.

Deepa: It was smart. But – I don't even remember why? I'm still kind of friends with one of them. Maybe I should ask her! [both laugh] But yeah – very, very much like Spencer’s story. And I know Spencer’s story is supposed to make us feel bad about her parents, not noticing or caring, but like –

Cameron: And, sure, yeah.

Deepa: Sure! But, like you say, juxtaposed with Caleb, juxtaposed with Toby, who – despite having maybe grown up in those circumstances – the fact, if I think, his like incarceration and juvie has – and I mean, given him new connections, but probably taken away a lot of his original safety net. So. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. I just feel so bad for Caleb in this episode, or in these like two episodes. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. Hmm, should we stay on bad things?

Cameron: Yeah, let's stay on bad things.

Deepa: This is not as bad. But why does Ella, when everything is goes bad, just like not show up, right? Why is that her move?

Cameron: Oh my god.

Deepa: You know? Because they're bad with Byron, but ultimately, who gets hurt is Mike and Aria, and it just pisses me off. She could still come to dinner, or been like, “Hey, I'm gonna take you guys out for dinner”, or something like that, right, to make – to emphasize that whatever's going on between her and Byron, it doesn't mean she doesn't love the kids, because that's what the meal was really about was the kids.

Cameron: Ughhhh. Yeah, if you’re – yeah, you can do your messy shit like with Byron, or whatever, I don't know, but just like – yeah, it’s just so disappointing.

Deepa: Just show the fuck up. Show the fuck up.

Cameron: To lacrosse games, to dinners…

Deepa: Yes. To dinners that your kids made for you…

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Also maybe don't have a fight in Aria’s room, where Mike is going to pass by. [laughs] I mean, that's a real thing. Parents have fights, and kids can see all the time. But it was funny that it started because of being in Aria’s room, kind of spying on her. 

Cameron: In the beginning, when – I don't remember if it's Ella or Byron that says, like, “There's gonna be some changes around here,” and Mike is like, “I don't need any more of that.”

Deepa: Yeah!

Cameron: I was like, oh, Mike!

Deepa: Mike! Yeah, it's true. It's true. Also, they are promising things way too quickly. And at first I was just gonna blame it on Byron, because it seems like Ella was a little more reticent. But she, I think, is the one who says, “Maybe changing back,” implying that she could move back in, right? So it is on both of them.

Cameron: Yeah. Yikes.

Deepa: Ella, Ella. Do we wanna talk about parents, since we're on a parent?

Cameron: I guess. Eh. I struggled.

Deepa: With worst? Or best? Or both?

Cameron: With best, I struggled.

Deepa: Oh, interesting. Okay. Okay.

Cameron: ‘cause I really – I thought Veronica was like, actually supportive in like the first episode?

Deepa: Yes, yes, no, she was.

Cameron: Yeah, and I think just like keeping Spencer in the loop, and trying to like, I don't know – I just like thought that that was good in the first episode.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. I think I was feeling so bad for Caleb that I gave it to Ashley, just so that there was someone on his side? Even though she's not on his side necessarily, for the reasons that we've said, she just has actually come to like him.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: But I think maybe a little bit – actually, maybe she does see a little bit of this like, oh, shit, this kid is having to deal with all this stuff, right? So…yeah. I gave it to Ashley for that reason. But I agree with you about Veronica. I thought that she was – she was being good and supportive, and believing Spencer, right?

Cameron: A hundred percent.

Deepa: Like she had to ask Spencer a hard question, but she believed her answer. So.

Cameron: Yeah. I just, like, that – is huge, I think, for Spencer, and just like for – yeah.

Deepa: Is it because she's in lawyer mode that she's actually more able to – right, like, she's used to doing this with clients and treating clients with respect? [laughs]

Cameron: Oh my god! More than her children? [cracks up]

Deepa: [laughing] I mean, we’ve seen her treat Spencer with respect before, but...

Cameron: Like actually showing up? That's hilarious.

Deepa: Is she just a better lawyer than she is a mom?

Cameron: Potentially! ‘cause she's just like around a lot, too, which is not usually her vibe.

Deepa: No, not at all. [both laugh] Maybe she's a decent defense lawyer.

Cameron: I think she is. Why not, right?

Deepa: Oh my god. Yeah, I think in contrast to the previous episode, where there's, you know, the awful scene with Melissa saying, “Yeah, I don't know how to believe you unless I believe you're sick,” that kind of thing. And Spencer's parents were – Spencer's parents were weird in that scene, because what they were pushing for was Spencer to go to therapy, which I don't think is necessarily off-track, right? But it also felt like they were in a position of not believing Spencer, and didn't really defend her against what Melissa was saying in that episode. But in this episode Veronica made it clear that unlike Melissa, potentially, she believes Spencer. Not that we hear Melissa say that, but with our now assumption that of where Melissa is coming from in this – that she thinks Spencer killed Bethany – that presumably she doesn't believe Spencer.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Or thinks that Spencer doesn’t know she killed Bethany, question mark?

Cameron: Uh-huh. Sure. ‘cause she’s out of control.

Deepa: ‘cause she’s out of control, yeah, yeah. [laughs] Okay, so I had kind of remembered the whole thing where Spencer has to help with the booth with Sean's mom –

Cameron: You were so on it!

Deepa: – but I didn't remember what it was for? I thought it was for rehabilitating Ian's image for some reason, and it wasn't. It was for Spencer's image. And. She, like, barely does anything anyway, so I don't think it was gonna work.

Cameron: It didn't work. And I think when Spencer hugged and kissed Toby at the end, Sean's mother's eyeballs were the biggest that they've ever been. She was shocked. [both crack up]

Deepa: Oh my god, she was so annoying!

Cameron: She was so annoying! Ew!

Deepa: No wonder we don’t like Sean! Also, imagine her as your dentist.

Cameron: Oh my god, I forgot she was a dentist.

Deepa: You just have to listen to all the gossip, and you can't say anything because your mouth is open.

Cameron: Ooooh.

Deepa: It just seems like she wouldn't have the fun gossip. She'd have the annoying gossip, you know.

Cameron: Yeah, just like keeping tabs on people – not in a fun way, but in a judgy, not-fun way.

Deepa: Exactly. Yes. Yes, I did enjoy the little back and forth about Hilton Head.

Cameron: Me too.

Deepa: That was fun, because – because Melissa and Ian were caught in a lie, but also because it’s Hilton Head!

Cameron: “Opposite sides of the resort!” [both laugh] Jesus.

Deepa: Why would you ever meet someone in a fun house? Even if you're going to a fun house, why would you decide to meet them in it? It doesn't seem like a good place to find someone.

Cameron: Absolutely not! And how are you supposed to believe that someone texted you from a different phone, like –

Deepa: Come on. Come on!

Cameron: If you're getting text all the time that are weird and threatening, like…I don't know.

Deepa: Yup. It doesn't make any sense. I also don't even really understand what she went into with that revolving door, like, is it supposed to be a door that opens somewhere else? Or – what is it?

Cameron: I don't know.

Deepa: It didn't seem like any feature. So it's just a place to get horrifyingly stuck.

Cameron: Yeah, with a crowbar. And Ian has to rescue you.

Deepa: And Ian has to rescue you. Gross.

Cameron: God.

Deepa: My favorite Ian moment in these episodes was at the beginning of 20 when he’s just sinisterly drinking milk. [laughs]

Cameron: Oh my god, right?! [both laugh] I was like, yes, terrifying.

Deepa: That is a good thing to drink sinisterly. I think drinking milk is probably more sinister than any other drink I can think of.

Cameron: Yeah, ‘cause he had like whiskey or something at the in the other episode, that's just like whatever. But the milk. That says something about a person.

Deepa: I mean, it was just because we hate milk, and we don't understand why people would voluntarily drink milk?

Cameron: Maybe. [both laugh] We could be biased against milk and people that like milk. But I do think culturally – not just the two-of-us-ly – there’s, like…

Deepa: Well, it's something about it's something about like perceived safety, or like – I don't know, like, you know, domesticity? And I don't know, something about the home, and milk being wholesome, right?

Cameron: Hmm. Hmm.

Deepa: I don't have a thing here, but I feel like I almost have a thing here.

Cameron: I like it. I like it. Because I feel like when – another milk drinking scene I could think of is in like, Get Out –

Deepa: Oh!

Cameron: – when what's her face's character…. Williams? Alison Williams? Is that her name?

Deepa: Alison! Yes. I think you’re right.

Cameron: When she's just like drinking milk and eating dry cereal?

Deepa: Yes! [both crack up]

Cameron: It's just like that's weirdo behavior. Something's off here, you know.

Deepa: Okay, to be fair, I would have done that as a child when I was forced to drink milk.

Cameron: Sure.

Deepa: I would have had it on the side instead of putting it in the cereal. But that was when I was forced to drink milk. She is an adult in a horror movie!

Cameron: In a horror movie, who does horror things! But yeah, I think that is also like, the milk, the wholesome, the like – weird, yeah, safety thing. That's interesting.

Deepa: Yeah, ‘cause whiskey very much puts him in a more dangerous space.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But milk, you know. Just drinking milk out of the fridge ‘cause he lives there.

Cameron & Deepa: Ewww.

Cameron: He still lives there!

Deepa: Don't worry. He's gonna die his first death soon, so. [both laugh]

Cameron: Praise be!

Deepa: Also, I was thinking about the Founders Festival which – I have lived in New England, but I've never experienced that. Maybe, I guess, because I didn't live in a small town? I lived in kind of an urban area, but…it was still kind of small-town vibes. I don't think we had a Founders Day. But does Gilmore Girls have a Founders Day? And is that important?

Cameron: It’s so Gilmore Girls. They have like seventeen different holidays that are weirdly specific rituals, and everyone has to be involved in the town square. Like that's exactly – that is the only thing I was thinking of.

Deepa: I don't know why it's also the only thing I was thinking of, when I’ve barely watched Gilmore Girls!

Cameron: There's – yeah, there's so many days they have to celebrate. And yeah, Luke is always chastised for not getting into the spirit of whatever day.

Deepa: Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking a couple of things that Garrett brought to mind. One was that when he talks to Spencer from his car and says, “At least it's me and not someone who doesn't know you,” blah blah blah – number one, bullshit, obviously, but understandable bullshit coming from his perspective. Understandable meaning like not sympathetic, like, I think that makes sense for Garrett’s character. Also very close to what Toby is gonna end up thinking, basically, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It's very much that, “I'm on the inside, and I can make change from there. And I can protect people. And I can –” you know. Which is absolutely not the case. But it also – that and the reveal at the end of the – at the end of episode 21, about the videos and what they don't yet know is the N.A.T. Club, and Garrett – what we know, that Garrett was part of that as well – just was making me reflect again on, like, how annoying it is that that wasn't a bigger deal of a plot. Because the N.A.T. Club could have actually been really interesting as the focal point for whoever A was, right? And it just goes nowhere. And the people involved don't really get – I mean, other than obviously, Garrett and Ian get murdered –

Cameron: Right, but that’s –

Deepa: – but they don’t get like a public reckoning.

Cameron: Yeahhhh.

Deepa: The N.A.T. Club is fucked up so many levels, because Melissa is involved, too, and like…it just could have gone somewhere, you know?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: At the very least she knows that they have a camera in in Alison's room, right? Because she comes and confronts Ian about, maybe, sleeping with Alison – hooking up with Alison, whatever.

Cameron: Yeahhhh.

Deepa: Yeah. But the N.A.T. Club just like doesn't – doesn't have an impact on the larger plot. And I wish it did, because I think it…I think it's not just that the N.A.T. Club doesn't have a bigger impact. Ultimately, the two big things, I think, that we get around surveillance that are actually interesting are the N.A.T. Club and Ezra’s book, right? And then just general – just general, like, surveillance – like police surveillance, also, like Garrett's obviously mixed up in that. But neither of those actually end up having much to do with Charlotte being A. And Charlotte being A doesn't actually have that much about surveillance in and of itself. It's a tool for her. But that's not – it's not a lesson here, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: You know what I mean? Like – because everything that happens to Alison is a little bit about her just being treated like a teenage girl, and oversexualized, and over-surveilled. But Charlotte's specific thing doesn't have much to do…and I think it's – I mean, we wish Charlotte wasn't A for so many reasons.

Cameron: For so many reasons! So many reasons.

Deepa: That's just a better direction they could have gone! I remember we used to talk about A as, like, the patriarchy, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: We used to be like, ultimately, whoever they designate as A – and when it was Ezra, we were like, see?

Cameron: Thank god!

Deepa: Yeah, thank fucking god, because it makes sense, because everything that Ezra does – even before we knew he was A – made sense as a way of abuse, and of, like, having control over them and having –

Cameron: Absolutely.

Deepa: – yeah, surveilling them. I feel like I've said the word surveil a million times now, so you say something.

Cameron: Surveil. [both crack up] No, I think you make a really good point, because these are just seen as like things that happen, but they're like distractions from the main story, which is so weird because they are entangled with the story. But they aren't seen…like I don't know, it's like, not as – like, yes, we've just had them discover these tapes, so they are like horrified and confused, and feel violated. But that just kind of it doesn't go anywhere.

Deepa: I think the only thing it really does is contributes to Alison's overall vulnerability.

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: That was part of why when she – on that night, she is in a vulnerable position, because she has all these other histories of things, and these people who are potentially out to get her. It just – the person who does actually harm her isn't part of that. I do still think it – but you know what I mean, like, I think it – I think she wouldn't have been in that position of being vulnerable without all this other stuff going on.

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah.

Deepa: But that’s not enough for me! Right, like, that – it should have been – it should have been the main thing. That would have made – or something along those lines should have all built together into some like cohesive narrative…which was never gonna happen.

Cameron: Which was never gonna happen!

Deepa: You know what, I don't even need a cohesive narrative. I just need – I just need them to understand that the story that they were telling was about – was not about a traumatized, oppressed person like exerting power she didn't have over other people. You know what I mean?

Cameron: Mhm.

Deepa: Like Charlotte being A doesn't make sense for a ton of reasons, but one of them is that she doesn't have any base to come from, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like she was kicked out of her home, she leaves the place where she was institutionalized, like, somehow she goes to college – we don't really know how that is. We don't know where she's getting money from, or where she's living, or – right? Like. None of that makes any sense, and it makes so much more sense for all these other characters who are privileged or in positions of a power and authority, or are police, right? Like, Ughhhhh.

Cameron: Yeah! And are, like, people that they know, right? ‘cause, I think that is huge!

Deepa: Yeah, and real.

Cameron: And actually what generally happens, is proximity and – yeah, just like comfort, and, I don't know, yeah, feeling safe.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. And the amount of abuse that is just not considered abuse because…ugh. And it’s not even just Ezra and Aria!

Cameron: No, it’s – no.

Deepa: So many – so many different forms of abuse. So I think the N.A.T. Club storyline is interesting. And super fucked up. And, like, the thing that we tend to kind of ignore about Jason when we talk about Jason being a lesbian. [laughs]

Cameron: I knowwww. Okay, we should hold ourselves more accountable. [laughs]

Deepa: We should, we should! Jason was part of the N.A.T. Club; he was fucking videotaping them and his sister.

Cameron: And his sister.

Deepa: And he does have a, like, age-inappropriate abusive thing with Aria, ultimately. So yeah, we will try to be more accountable to that.

Cameron: Yes. [both laugh]

Deepa: Speaking of Alison, we got a cute Alison flashback –

Cameron: We did.

Deepa: – which is the same day, again.

Cameron: Everything happens on that day.

Deepa: Yeah! One thing that confused me is – Emily has sent her a letter being mad at her. And I guess they just don't talk about it? Or maybe wouldn't have – maybe it was supposed to get there, and she never got it because she died. I don't know.

Cameron: I don’t think she got it.

Deepa: Okay, okay.

Cameron: ‘cause like…yeah. Right?

Deepa: I think you're right? Yeah, I think you're right.

Cameron: ‘cause otherwise that would be something they would have to talk about, right?

Deepa: Right, exactly.

Cameron: If we're doing anything reasonable on this show! [both laugh] Yeah.

Deepa: I do love that Alison DiLaurentis – you know, rich kid, resourceful, but still like fifteen-years-old – has a storage unit where she hides a single lunchbox with a key – sorry, she hides the key, and then she hides a single lunchbox with a USB drive in it. I mean, amazing move, but how did she get the storage unit? She's fifteen! I'm sure you have to be eighteen to rent a storage unit. [both laugh] Maybe they don't care about fake IDs, I don't know.

Cameron: The storage unit? Hmm! I have no idea. [both laugh] And then she goes to leave because of a “prior engagement”! Which could be any of those weird things she goes to do that time.

Deepa: She either – she probably goes to see Jenna in the hospital. I think that's the one that happens before the evening starts. Everything else happens after it's already evening, at least.

Cameron: Yeah. And everyone else is asleep.

Deepa: She doesn't go see Toby in – sorry, not juvie – in reform school the same day, right? That's a different time.

Cameron: That's a good point. That doesn't happen that day, I don't think.

Deepa: I would hope not, ‘cause that would take a long time, I'm sure.

Cameron: Probably not like conveniently located.

Deepa: No, and I'm sure reform school has security stuff, and security stuff takes fucking forever. So. Okay. I did like that she told Emily, “You're the only one that really understands me.” [laughs]

Cameron: [fondly] Yeah, me too. The only one she can be completely honest with. [both laugh]

Deepa: And it’s true, weirdly!

Cameron: Yup!

Deepa: Oh, Alison, you're so gay, so gay. So in love with Emily.

Cameron: Yeah. Should we talk about other gay things?

Deepa: Yes, for sure. You go ahead!

Cameron: So we have Paige, you know, going on a date with Sean.

Deepa: Which is hilarious.

Cameron: Which is so funny, because, like, Sean? Are you kidding me?

Deepa: I mean, he is perfect for her image, to her dad, right?

Cameron: That's true. He is the son of a dentist…and a pastor.

Deepa: And a pastor! Both!

Cameron: Both of those things.

Deepa: And, you know, you have to get on Mrs. Ackard’s good side, so. Paige could be doing that.

Cameron: Yeah, for the town. And he kisses her on date, and she's like, “Oh no. Let me text Emily about this.” [both crack up]

Deepa: Immediately.

Cameron: Immediately!

Deepa: I did laugh at – when Sean goes to ask Emily about Paige, and Emily says, “We swim on the same team, but I don't know her that well,” or whatever! [cracks up]

Cameron: I loved that, I was like, you do swim on the same team or for the same team, or whatever!

Deepa: Yeah! Emily. Of course Sean didn't pick up on that, but it is hilarious.

Cameron: That made me laugh so much. Yeah. And then, basically, after that Paige is like, “Okay, maybe I should think about coming out, and find some resources, and support, and people to talk to.” And so they – is Samara – is that a high school or a college?

Deepa: No, it's a high school.

Cameron: It’s a high school? Okay.

Deepa: Yes, ‘cause it’s a prep school, it's called Sheridan Prep. I don't know why I remembered that.

Cameron: That’s fine.

Deepa: But yeah, it's a high school, age is fine.

Cameron: Great, ‘cause I was like, is that a college GSA situation? No, it’s a high school GSA. They just, like, have one, and Rosewood does not? [laughs]

Deepa: Emily’s the only out person at Rosewood.

Cameron: It would just be Emily!

Deepa: Not that being out – not that you need to have anyone be out to have a GSA, because mine plenty of “allies”, quote unquote, including me!

Cameron: Yeah, I was really good ally in my high school GSA!

Deepa: Funnily enough – I came out senior year of high school – most publicly, senior year of high school – and I stopped going to GSA meetings almost immediately! [laughs] Didn't need it after that. I did join like a secret support group that was confidential –

Cameron: Whoa.

Deepa: –but I stopped going to the regular – we didn't call it GSA, but our regular version of GSA.

Cameron: Wow! You got like upgraded?

Deepa: I guess so! ‘cause it was actually like the actual queers, including a bunch of closeted people, so. [both laugh]

Cameron: And then Paige doesn't show up to that chat.

Deepa: Yeah. You know, I'm sympathetic to Paige in and of itself.

Cameron: For sure.

Deepa: It's just the part where she's involving Emily, because Emily was extremely clear with her about being there for her, supporting her as a friend – and I think the way that Emily talked about that was very…I don't know. It was really good, right? Because it's hard to express to someone, when you understand what it's like wanting to stay closeted, and especially when you haven't really made a lot of choice about coming out, in some senses you felt – like I'm saying Emily felt forced or pressured to come out, and certainly lived with the threat of being outed. And I think Emily does a really good job of it, in the way that is like, “I am not judging you for this. We are early in our relationship, so it's not that I am trying to make you into someone who you're not, or make you do things in order to be with me. But this is just not a good space for me right now. But I will be there for you.” And like, that's the thing, right? If Paige stuck with that, and Emily helped her through all of this, I could see Emily being frustrated that she doesn't show up, but I could still see it being understandable for Paige, you know?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: She's freaked out, and that's fair. But trying to date Emily alongside this, and then pulling the same moves of, like, bringing a guy to their –

Cameron: To their concert date, as…insurance? Is that what we said?

Deepa: I mean, it's only because it's Emily, right? And it's only because Nick McCullers knows who Emily is. Otherwise she could take a girl to a concert. Just not. Emily.

Cameron: Yeah, she has to go with Trey what's-his-face.

Deepa: Yeah. [both laugh]

Deepa: I will say too, we haven't talked a ton about this, except in our guest episode with Dylan, where Dylan talked about Paige and Emily not having chemistry. I actually don't agree. I do think they have chemistry. That's why I can see like glimmers of it being compelling and like something I would be interested in. And then, like I get annoyed at Paige. And you know I am also like – I don't hate Paige. I just get annoyed at her. But I also understand a lot of where she's coming from. But I do see why- I personally see why that was such a popular pairing and Paige was such a popular character, because I find her compelling sometimes. And I did think that they had chemistry.

Cameron: She’s definitely compelling sometimes. I - yeah.

Deepa: When they kissed in Emily's room like I was annoyed about it because I knew what was coming. But I actually thought that scene was good. And I was like, okay, they’re kissing now. I could be into this.

Cameron: This time was not a bad kiss.

Deepa: Do you think they have chemistry?

Cameron: I just think, like Shay is so beautiful. It's like hard to like, I don't. I'm not saying like she-

Deepa: Has chemistry with everyone?

Cameron: I don’t think I’m saying that, but she could add more to whatever there is, right? Like I’m just like, ah!

Deepa: Yeah, but there are love interests of hers that I don't really think she has chemistry with like Talia. Like beyond us not liking Talia for a number of reasons, I just don’t think they really have chemistry either.

Cameron: Ugh, that plotline is so weird.

Deepa: Very weird. I'm not even sure I think she and Samara have chemistry. I do think they're cute. But I think her and Paige had more chemistry than her and Samara. Is it Samara or Samara? I always get confused.

Cameron:  I thought you told me it was Samara earlier this episode. Were you wrong? Are we doubting ourselves?

Deepa: I think you're right. I think it is Samara because I was surprised when she said her name, and it was not what I remember. My memory is so bad these days.

Cameron: It's fine. I did like this like tension when, like her and Samara are, obviously like flirting, and she's giving her earrings. And then, Paige shows up. It was a cute scene, like everyone's like, Oh.

Deepa: I also like Samara trying to, like, put it back to Paige by saying, “Tell your friend she looks hot in her earrings,” because that's not – that's such a good way of trying to, like, draw Paige in in terms of like – you're still keeping her cover by saying “friend”, but you're allowing her this thing to do that she – that doesn't have to do with Samara, that has to do with Emily, and that presumably she could just do that to not hurt Emily. And, like, Paige doesn't take it, you know, Paige doesn't take the offer. Samara tries. She's nice.

Cameron: Yeah, she is nice, you know. She drives a jeep.

Deepa: So much drama. Yeah. But I respect Emily just being like, “This is too much drama for me. I've got enough going on that isn't related to romance.”

Cameron: Honestly.

Deepa: Do you want to talk about outfits?

Cameron: Yes. I also had some struggles. I think my least outfit was, Hanna wears this like peplum black and red blazer situation briefly, but it is so aggressive.

Deepa: It was very brief. But okay, okay.

Cameron: It's just – I hated it. How about you?

Deepa: Okay, I was very tempted to give worse to just the owl. It’s so ugly.

Cameron: It's so ugly. Oh my god.

Deepa: Number one, it's ugly. Number two, It looks exactly like anything you would find at any store in 2014, or 20-, or I guess we're in 2011 when we had owl shit and mustache shit, and all that kitschy stuff. And they just keep being like, “Oh, it's so cute,” and also like, “it's the exact same one. And I know this for sure,” even though every owl looked like that in that time.

Cameron: They all fucking looked like that.

Deepa: They all fucking looked like that. It does happen to be the same one, because this is a, you know story we have to follow, but it didn't have to be. And it was disgusting.

Cameron: It's not unique. It's not cute.

Deepa: Okay, Spencer, in episode 20, when she's like trying to go to school just to get out of the house. She comes to the cafeteria and sits down with them. She's wearing an outfit that has a top that's red and white horizontal stripes and kind of the news boy cap. I don't really know if it was newsboy, but it was that kind of cap? And yeah, and she looked halfway between, like a sailor and Waldo.

Cameron: Oh, no! yeah. The jean skirt was also really weird with it too. 

Deepa: And then my other least favorite is Aria has, I think what it is like a maroon lacey dress with long sleeves. The dress is probably fine, but I can't fucking tell, because it's got this horrible green cardigan over it. A short sleeved green cardigan with like embroidery.

Cameron: That was heinous and did give me kind of like I was thinking back to her hobbit outfit. 

Deepa: Yes. something about this short sleeve cardigan with the long sleeve lacey, right? 

Cameron: What are we doing? 

Deepa: What was your best?

Cameron: I – [laughs] Okay, Mona, wears a hilarious outfit that looks like Christmas?

Deepa: Oh, a Christmas outfit, I don’t know if I remember that one.

Cameron: It’s like red and there’s this giant bow on her neck! It was also so brief, but I was like, wow! That's hilarious.

Deepa: Is that your best outfit? 

Cameron: Yup, that's my best outfit.

Deepa: I did like Mona's all teal knit look at the end at the festival. I didn't put it as my favorite, but I did notice that.

Cameron: What was your favourite? 

Cameron: Okay, I might not hate Aria’s tiger vest with that pleated skirt.

Cameron: Really? Okay.

Deepa: It was weird that she was wearing buttons on it – like pin buttons. That was strange, and I don't know what they said. But I actually kind of thought it was a fun outfit. I just, I’m a sucker for pleated skirts, I think, is one thing, but I also didn't hate the tigers. I don't know. I think that was my favorite, but I also liked, Emily looked gay several times. 

Cameron: That's true, that is true. 

Deepa: I might have given her black leather jacket outfit best except I didn't really like the shirt underneath. The jacket was so good.  Those are kind of the three that I was noticing, was that Mona knit all teal look, ‘cause she has like a teal hat as well. I don't know if we would call it a beanie because it's like, but it seems like hand knit, or something, or at least like looks like that. I don't know. It was cute while she's, you know, doing gay sabotage things.

Cameron: Dumping a slushy on the trash she ripped up from Caleb’s letter. Very thorough.

Deepa: And then proceeds to go to from there to her lair where she smashes Hanna’s heart at the end and sends it to her. 

Cameron: Oh my god. 

Deepa: I think – I think that's before you're right. You're right. So still. A fun move. Very personal. Mona, Mona. Oh, I was thinking about something you said in one of our early episodes. 

Cameron: Oh no.

Deepa: It was a good thought! It was an insightful thought. It was about the Montgomerys, and – is the show trying to give this message of, their permissiveness as part of what leads to Aria, right? And definitely all the conversations between Ella and Byron about trust, like, brought that up for me. And again, it's a little hard to know what the show thinks they're doing, because they don't see Ezra as an abuser. So it's like they are giving that message. But it's not exactly a cautionary tale, because they don't think Ezra is a thing to be, you know, wary of.

Cameron: Yeah, exactly. I had trouble with their conversation, because Ella is like, “We trust her”, and Byron's like, “What if we're also worried about her?” And like he was like “She went to the cops. Remember, when she was up the police station, we had to pick her up?” And like there's just like this trouble, like this like generalized trouble, that is, yeah, not at all connected to who is actually like harming her right.

Deepa: But – which is true, but also, they're having that conversation in the context of Ezra even though they don't know it, right, because they're having it in the context of Aria sending a text to her mom. I think that's what like confused me. I don't know what the show thinks they're doing there, you know.

Cameron: Yeah, ‘cause like, Mike is even like, “They're having an argument about some dude that you are maybe dating.”

Deepa: Yeah. Exactly. And Ella talking about having trust in Aria feels like it's a little bit about this narrative of Aria being grown up, but – and about how they treat their children. But that's not wrong, and that's not why she is being abused right? Like –

Cameron: Right! Like it's not because they trust her.

Deepa: Fight. And you know, even Byron is saying, “It’s not Aria I don't trust. It's the rest of the world,” which, like is – I think where he's coming from right now is valid given everything that his daughter is going through, right? But again, you're right. It's not – the show is not actually – the show is weirdly connecting to Ezra, but it's not about Ezra, even though it should be. That's a really good point.

Cameron: Yeah, like, right? Like, Ella was like, “I don't want to like poke and try and like, search her fucking room,” and shit, right?

Deepa: Yeah. 

Cameron: And Byron's like, “I kinda do.” And then that just evolves into them talking about their issues that they haven't talked about, which is so weird. 

Deepa: Which they haven’t resolved, yeah, so weird. The way he brings it up is like, “Oh, that's still there.” It's what it's been like a month, Byron! Of course that’s still there!

Cameron: Do you know how time works in this show, Byron?

Deepa: You cheated on her, and you made your daughter lie about it for a year. You didn't even tell your wife ultimately. She found out from someone else, after she had met the student you were having an inappropriate relationship with. 

Cameron: Yeah, “I thought we were past this.” 

Deepa: Fuck you, Byron. Oh, did we talk about worst parents?

Cameron: No, we didn't. Can we give it to both of them? 

Deepa: I think so. That's a good call, because I gave it to Byron, but I was mad at Ella. 

Cameron: So yeah, I think they combo-packed that one. 

Deepa: Yes, yes. Good call. Yeah.

Cameron: Just by like being shitty to their kids.

Deepa: I know I know, yeah. 

Cameron: [laughs ] Sometimes I'm just…I can't read my notes, and then when I do read them, they are funny. [both laugh] I think this is going back to the fucking – Sean's mom at the carnival when Ian is like fixing something or whatever on the booth. And she's like, “We feel safe in your hands, Ian.”

Deepa: Oh my god. 

Cameron: Horrifying. Gross.

Deepa: Yeah, just the whole like Ian and Melissa, couple-ness like with the pastor's wife. It's just – it's this weird side of Rosewood that we actually don't see that often. And when we do see it, we usually see it with like Pam, right? Like, I think it's funny that it's coming from the Hastingses, in a way, because they have a whole different schtick. They have their whole like country club schtick, but not like the oh, domestic, you know, wife and mother mode.

Cameron: This was very like strategic right? Because Veronica explicitly says neighbors are potential jurors. So it's like this elevated…it's not just that they – their opinions matter. But then, eventually they might like actually have power over you.

Deepa: I think that’s absolutely true. I guess what I was trying to say was more like the amount that Melissa's changed in order to fit this different narrative right? Because previously it wouldn't be this like, “Oh, I'm pregnant, and I'm like so cozy with my husband.” And you know all of that, right? Like the previous Melissa's priorities would be a different way of connecting with – so like Spencer getting tacked onto that is very strange, even though it is strategic, which is very Hastings.

Cameron: Like a campaign.

Deepa: Exactly. Previously, I think it'd be more about – I don't know, kind of – kind of what they did with like the Alison memorial. That feels very like the normal way that they – not that's what they were doing it for, but the kind of way that they interact with the town in order to like be seen a little differently. It's much more Spencer's wheelhouse than like hanging out with Melissa and Ian, trying to resist from saying pointed things that Ian, which of course she can't, because – ugh. 

Cameron: It’s fucking Ian.

Deepa: Well, just on the strategic side of things: Toby's advice to Spencer about taking coffee to the cops? Smart. Very in line with Hastings’ mentality right now. Why does he have to use it to go to the other side? We’re like getting all this evidence of how like fucked up he's been by the system, and how bullshit he knows it is. And then he goes and does it right?

Cameron: Yeah,

Deepa: Just continuously pissed about that. 

Cameron: Yeah, nonstop pissed about that.

Deepa: And I do, like – you know I've gone back and forth throughout this whole season of whether I think that this version of Toby feels very different from a later version of Toby. And right now I'm not sure he does. I know I've said different things in the past. I feel like I can see the trajectory to A Toby, and then Cop Toby, but it's just pissing me off, ‘cause he's so…I don’t know. Yeah, he's so smart about the other side of it, you know? Smart is the wrong word. He, having been harmed by it, understands it in a way that I think a lot of the other characters don't, except probably Caleb, to be honest, right? Having also been – had law enforcement stuff before. And yeah, I just wish that stayed as the thing that was important to him rather than him thinking he can use that to join, you know, “can't beat them, join them” shit.

Cameron: Yeah. It's still disappointing like, it's still frustrating. 

Deepa: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it's interesting to get all of this stuff about cops that is kind of anti-cop narratives, right? Like it's mostly it's not really from a radical place, or like a you know, abolitionist place. It's from a like a defense lawyer's place. Yes, cops will always look for the worst thing about you, right. But it's still part of the show. It's still a part of the show’s like carceral narrative, is that, like cops are often bad, and not on their side for the most part. There are some times when they are on the Liars’ side, but for the most part they are not. Yeah. So to see that play out with Toby is extremely frustrating.

Cameron: Extremely frustrating. Hmm. Going back to the Jackie thing. Unfortunately. Why does she look like that? Like she just looks photoshopped right?

Deepa: She does! She doesn't look like a real person. Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: I know. We know she's a real person. 

Deepa: She does show up. But you're right. She looks photoshopped. 

Cameron: She looks like someone A could have like planted. 

Deepa: That’s so funny. 

Cameron: Like some AI.

Deepa: Oh, wow, yeah, like a composite image. 

Cameron: Right? Ezra’s fake fiancé.

Deepa: Honestly Ezra could have had a fake fiancé, right? I feel like that would be in line with all of his other shit.  Wild that she does actually show up.

Cameron: She exists! Wild.

Deepa: Unclear what that storyline is supposed to tell us about anything, because it doesn't have much of an impact. So what, is it supposed to be a reminder that Ezra’s older? Because we fucking know that. 

Cameron: We are fucking aware. 

Deepa: They are less aware than we are. You know he has, like this other life that he's lived, or whatever you know. What is it supposed to say? Is it just more drama, because that's all Aria cares about, so all of Aria’s drama is about Ezra? It's like she shows up for like a minute, right? And then like, Aria blackmails her into going away, I think, or someone-

Cameron: Someone blackmails someone!

Deepa: It could be A, it could be Mona. Mona’s like, “I've got other things to do. I need you out of here. I don't care about Ezra and Aria.” 

Cameron: Ahh. Yeah, I just so – he, by he I mean Ezra, while in Italy with his fiancé or his girlfriend has to get his brother to wire him money to buy a ring? What the fuck are we talking about?

Deepa: Also we know that his brother is around the same age as Aria. So how young was he when he wired his brother money? 

Cameron: Right! So weird!

Deepa: And wasn’t he in boarding school when we when we meet him, or is he in college? Either way. He’s still several years younger than Ezra.

Cameron: I don’t know! It doesn't make any sense.

Deepa: It doesn’t make any sense. Maybe when you're that rich you know how to wire money at a young age.

Cameron: It's like.

Deepa: Geez. Yeah.

Cameron: “But it wasn't even a carat. So don't worry.” Like you shouldn’t be threatened, or I don’t know, bullshit. 

Deepa: Such a weird plotline. I was gonna say, why do people, what do people see in Ezra. But like we've talked about this before, abusers can be charming. That's like part of how they – so maybe that part's not relevant. But like, yeah, I just don't know what it's supposed to tell us. Is it just to lead up to the paper bag scene? If that were true, then we wouldn't have Jackie show up later. So is it just to throw another wrench in things? I don't. 

Cameron: We could have got the paper bag scene on their own like. I don't. They didn't need anything.

Deepa: Maybe once we remember, and by remember, I mean, are reminded by the show of why Jackie is there…do you remember why Jackie shows up?

Cameron: Well, okay. Doesn't –

Deepa: She wants Ezra back. 

Cameron: She does?

Deepa: I'm pretty sure she wants Ezra back, and I'm pretty sure she figures out about Aria.

Cameron: Is this pre-admission essay that she shows up?

Deepa: Oh, wait. I forgot about that part. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's much later, I think. Yes. So.

Cameron: She does show up at their house! 

Deepa: I think she gets a job at Hollis.

Cameron: Wow, everyone gets a fucking job at Hollis.

Deepa: I know. I mean, I think they went to college at Hollis, right? Oh, no, no, maybe they didn't, Ezra did his Masters at Hollis. We can never figure out anyone’s education! We don't know where they went to college. But she does show up at their house, and then she like figures out something about Ezra and Aria, and she does want Ezra back. The admissions essay thing, I think, is like way later.

Cameron: Way later? Okay.

Deepa: Yes. But I didn't remember that. So I’m glad you did cause that is funny. Oh geez!

Cameron: So she just wow, okay – 

Deepa: Yeah. And then she leaves again. And I don't know what the point is anyway. 

Cameron: Weird. You're right, Mona probably just was like, can you leave? Go find a job somewhere else? There's probably one in New Orleans or wherever Byron could fucking finagle – call in favors for whatever.

Deepa: Yeah, you could take that job! 

Cameron: God. Yeah, I don't think I have anything more except I just wrote, “Ezra loves cops.”

Deepa:  I did forget about the Ezra-Garrett scene! I forgot that Garrett finds out about Aria and Ezra, and he doesn't do anything with it now, but he does see her come out of his apartment.

Cameron: ‘cause it's not sneaky, like, they're fucking dating.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay, is there anything more fun to end on? You always have more notes than I do. 

Cameron: Yeah ‘cause I always – give me like two seconds. We open episode 20 by Spencer saying, “I used to love algebra!”

Deepa: Oh, Spencer!

Cameron: And now she doesn't love it, cause she's so stressed out.

Deepa: She's so stressed out. 

Cameron: But it did make me laugh.

Deepa: As a former math minor, did you love algebra? 

Cameron: No. You see, I made my way all the way to linear algebra, and oh my god. 

Deepa: Riiiight, that was what broke you in terms of getting to stay as a math minor, right?

Cameron: Yeah, I couldn't do it, or didn't put any time into it, or like. which is probably true. And it was just matrices.

Deepa: That sounds really hard. I never got that far. 

Cameron: And like you have to manipulate them. And they're – it's like all so abstract in this way that's like, what the fuck are even talking about. So I took that class and would just write down answers.

Deepa: What do you mean, write down answers? 

Cameron: Like it'd be a test, and I'd just be like, “2.” And so like thankfully, I got a pity C, which is very nice. And then I dropped out of math after that.

Deepa: Fair! That sounds so hard.  I hated matrices even in like lower levels of math. 

Cameron: Oh my god, it was so confusing. And like. Yeah, I just wasn't – t wasn't a priority, shall we say? But yeah, where could I be now if I decided to keep doing math, we’ll never know.

Deepa: You might be doing a math PhD and not publishing anything, because apparently math grad students don't publish. PhD programs are so confusing to me how different they are! 

Cameron: Everything is so different. No one knows anything about anyone else’s.

Deepa: No, it’s true. My dad was telling a story recently about meeting some guy at work –my dad works in university systems as a doctor – and later, finding out that he's like super famous mathematician who was the father of fractals.

Cameron: the father of fractals! Wow that's cool. 

Deepa: I haven’t met the father of fractals, but I have met the father of recycling. 

Cameron: Who the hell is the father of recycling? 

Deepa: This guy in Seattle in the…seventies, I wanna say, who campaigned really, really hard for curbside pickup of recycling, and basically got the city to do it. And he was like famous in Fremont. He was like the, quote-unquote, “Mayor of Fremont”, when there was all this like “Fremont should be its own city” shit. I met him way past that when I was doing conservation organizing shit. He was one of these people that I think I phone banked, and then I talked him for like half an hour, because he just kept talking. And afterwards I googled him and was like, “Oh, interesting!” I know you hate fun facts. But I think this is funny. The Fremont – the interurban statue thing I can't remember what it’s called – like the statues at the bus stop that are waiting for the bus? 

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: The sculptor of that hated this guy so much that he made the dog's face’s his face.

Cameron: The father of recycling? Wow. Is a dog.

Deepa: That's my fun fact. Cameron hates fun facts. I'm so sorry.

Cameron: Is this podcast just listing things-

Deepa: You hate? Yeah  

Cameron: You get to uncover more every week, or bi-week.

Deepa: We haven’t even scraped the surface. I feel like I’ve hit all the obvious ones. Except for mayonnaise, we may not have talked about mayonnaise. 

Cameron: Well, now, you're just letting it – [both laugh]

Deepa: What is the thing that I think it's weird that you hate?

Cameron: There's a lot of weird food things that you think are weird that I hate.

Deepa: I made a TikTok about it once.

Cameron: Is there anything you had in mind or just the general concept? 

Deepa: Of food things you hate? I’m remembering toasted slivered almonds even though you like slivered almonds and toasted almonds. But not toasted slivered almonds. Oh, and then the cheese wrapped in the prosciutto, or whatever, like – 

Cameron: Yeah, disgusting. Always sweaty. Oh. Yeah, I have a lot of food feelings. 

Deepa: I agree with you on mayonnaise, you know that. 

Cameron: Thank you. Thank you. 

Deepa: Speaking of food, shall we go to…?

Cameron: Oh, yeah, let's move right on down to Deepa.

Deepa:  I'm gonna share another depression meal – because I'm not cooking a lot right now – which is just putting chickpeas in your quesadillas and just making a simple quesadilla!

Cameron: Whoo! 

Deepa: Because it doesn’t taste like much in a quesadilla, but they give it a little extra little different texture, little more body, so that you're, you know – if you're really can't eat, but you need to eat something, just like put some calories in your body.

Cameron: If you have a can of chickpeas, how much of that can are you putting in the quesadilla?

Deepa: I think, to maintain, like the structural integrity of the quesadilla, probably about half of it, only half of it. Well, I guess it depends on how big a quesadilla. I'm thinking of a quesadilla that's half a tortilla, right? Like one tortilla folded, probably half a can. So maybe if you're making you know two full tortillas on top of each other, maybe that would be a whole can. I don't know. Seems like a lot, maybe more like a third of a can. Don’t microwave the can! 

Cameron: And you have cheese in there as well?

Deepa: Oh yeah, the quesadilla is normal and then you sprinkle chickpeas on it. My only real advice is don’t put it near the edge, so that you can seal the quesadilla with the chickpeas inside. And then you just make the quesadilla the way you make quesadillas. We make them on the stove. 

Cameron: Thank you.

Deepa: Oh, and I would put sriracha inside.

Cameron: Oh yes, you put sriracha inside. That’s your thing. 

Deepa: Somehow, having it outside isn't that is satisfying for me. I know, like I know, that would be normal. But like, I don't know, I just want it inside, because my parents have quesadillas with green chilies inside, so I'm used to everything being inside. But I prefer sriracha to green chilies.

Cameron: You know what I like on top of my quesadilla? Just a bunch of chopped onions. Like half a chopped onion on top of a quesadilla and some hot sauce. 

Deepa: Oh my god! That time that you sent a picture of that! 

Cameron: I got roasted. Everyone was so upset in the group chat. I don't know why.

Deepa: To be fair, I didn't understand there was a quesadilla underneath. I kind of thought you were just putting chopped onions on bread.

Cameron: That might have been how it looked. Which is kind of sad.

Deepa: The quesadilla made it much more legit. 

Cameron: Thank you. Thank you. That was my “I'm here and Deepa left me” meal.

Deepa:  Oh, the first time I left you during pandemic, after we had been living together during the pandemic. Was that the same time that you made like a life-size effigy of me to hang out with?

Cameron: Peepa?

Deepa: With the pumpkin head. Right? ‘cause it was Halloween time. I was going to dog-sit for my parents, who also live in the same city, so I wasn't very far. But I was gone from our apartment for like the first time in 2020 since we've been like living together and not seeing anyone else. I come home a day early, okay, I didn’t just come home and Cameron has like posed this effigy for fun. I come home a day early and surprise Cameron. She's sitting on the couch watching TV with this life-size effigy of me that is wearing a sweatshirt that I own and has a pumpkin head, and she was so surprised!

Cameron: I don't – [laughs]

Deepa: I guess you just got lonely? 

Cameron: I don't have…yeah, I don't have like an explanation for that.

Deepa: It was 2020. That's probably the only explanation necessary. 

Cameron: On that note! Should we close this out?

Deepa: Oh. I can close this mess out. Thanks for listening everyone. And, unlike Cameron, with the life-size effigy of me, act normal, bitches!

Cameron: Rude!