Episodes 1.18 & 1.19: "Who's Evil and Who's Just Naughty?"

Content notes: we don’t warn for things that happen in PLL, but from 6:15 to 14:04 we talk about the plot of The Bad Seed, which has murder (including of children), suicide, serial killers, and a cruel reference to capital punishment by electric chair.

Also, once again: we stand in full support of Palestinian liberation and against Israel's settler colonialism, apartheid, and genocide. If you don’t agree, please fuck off.

Today we’re covering episode 1.18, “The Badass Seed”, and 1.19, “A Person of Interest”! We talk about nature vs. nurture, Melissa Hastings’ motivations, fake abortions in media, how to spot an extra, terrazzo, and, as usual, how much we love Hanna and Caleb.

Episode Transcript: Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpea Recipe: Mediterranean Chickpea Salad, except use green onions instead of red

Fashion Analysis: Our best and worst outfits!

Deepa’s Literary Analysis: 

• Here are wikipedia entries for The Bad Seed novel by William March and play by Maxwell Anderson, and a one-act version 
• According to the PLL wiki, the book Spencer reads in bed is Bloody Tantrums: Child Mysteries, a fake book by Francesca Rollins, the writer of the episode

Things We Referenced Sort of Related to PLL

• Ask Me Another, a radio puzzle game show hosted by Ophira Eisenberg and Jonathan Coulton, which we both loved until it ended in 2021. They mentioned our favorite PLL episode when Adam Lambert was a guest on their 2018 Christmas show!
• PLL is maybe in the Riverdale universe now because of Pretty Little Liars: Original Sin?

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL

• One of our fans watched My Fake Boyfriend recommends it!
• There’s a rat epidemic across America
• A New York Christmas Wedding's weird not-abortion storyline
• Friday Night Lights, with Tim Riggins making memories and Deepa learning what a booster club is
• Crazy Stupid Love and how Byron and Ezra’s dynamic is like Steve Carrell and Ryan Gosling’s (ew)
• Motel Makeover, the perfect hate-watch

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to Free Lawrence Jenkins! Lawrence is an incredible abolitionist, artist, farmer, political educator, organizer, & friend of ours who is currently incarcerated. Help his defense committee to fight for his release!

Transcript

Content notes: we don’t usually warn for things that happen in PLL itself, but from 6:15 to 14:04 we talk about the plot of The Bad Seed, which has murder (including of children), suicide, serial killers, and a cruel reference to capital punishment by electric chair.

Deepa: Welcome back, everyone, to Don't Forget the Chickpeas, your favorite Pretty Little Liars rewatch podcast! I'm Deepa.

Cameron: I'm Cameron.

Deepa:And today we're talking about episodes 18 and 19 of the first season. 18 is “The Badass Seed”, which I learned in a google had to be censored when they played it on television. So it was just “The Bad Seed” on ABC Family. And episode 19 is “A Person of Interest”. So yeah, what do we want to start with?

Cameron: I have a thing I would like to start with.

Deepa: Let’s start with your thing.

Cameron: I was very happy to get the Paige and Emily meet up at the bar in the second episode, because I think one of the funniest things – or not like the funniest things you've ever said, but one of the things you said that like sticks in my brain and I think about a lot – is when you said that Paige sings karaoke like Ophira Eisenberg. I just like…that… [laughs]

Deepa: [laughing] I was wondering if you were gonna bring that up!

Cameron: Yeah, that's like one of the funniest things. I just like it. I always think about it. I don't know. I like – it’s so accurate. It's so funny.

Deepa: I was listening to it again, and I was like, I think I'm right. I think she said – the way she, like – especially the way she projects her voice on stage differently than how she usually talks – sounds like Ophira Eisenberg. I’m sorry!

Cameron: I'm not sorry!

Deepa: Listeners, if you're not familiar with Ophira Eisenberg, you should be. But, alas, her show is no longer around! She was one of the hosts of the radio show Ask Me Another, which is a favorite of Cameron and mine, and has one PLL connection, which is, you know. Unfortunately, it is no longer running – largely, I think, because during the pandemic they had to change the format. It was like an audience show, and it also had audience contestants. It's a game show, kind of. And they changed the format in pandemic to just being inviting comedians on to talk, and like those were definitely less interesting.

Cameron: Less good.

Deepa: Yes, but I do miss the show, and Ophira, and Johnathan Coulton, and all the good people there. Anyway.

Cameron: I hope they’re doing well.

Deepa: Thank you for bringing that up, ‘cause I definitely like felt reaffirmed.

Cameron: It's just like so accurate and so like –

Deepa: Oh my god.

Cameron: Yeah, so thank you for that. And I'm really happy we got to talk about it this episode.

Deepa: You're welcome. You're welcome. You know that scene, I think, is an example of like both, like Lindsey Shaw emoting decently, and she's kind of charming, right? Like I kinda get it. She's, like – that whole scene is pretty well written, like the way she keeps teasing Emily about finishing her sentences, and the way she gets her up on stage like…it's kinda cute. It's kinda like – even their banter is kind of cute. So you know, I get smidgens of it. Just, also, you tried to drown her like two weeks ago!

Cameron: Recently! There was something, I think her bob was a little more tousled, or something like it looked a little like –

Deepa: Edgier I think, yeah.

Cameron: And I appreciated that.

Deepa: I thought her best hair was that day in the locker room when she had a half updo. That was actually a really nice hairdo, and I thought that was a good way to get around the awfulness. I didn't – I do think the bar hair was better than her normal hair, but it wasn't that much better.

Cameron: It's not great.

Deepa: It was just, like, out. It was just, like, the same hairdo, but out. I don't know. But it did look less – I don't even know what to call Paige’s other haircut. What do we call Paige’s other haircut?

Cameron: Like “secretary”? Like weird administrative-

Deepa: It looked way less secretary and way more appropriate for karaoke. This is also a Pink heavy episode, ‘cause the next song was also Pink.

Cameron: One I've never heard before.

Deepa: I had to look it up. I also had not heard it. It's one of the – you know, every once in a while, Pink does slow songs to, like, you know, remind people she can sing, I guess. I don't know. It was one of those.

Cameron: You looked it up?

Deepa: I did. It's called “Glitter in the Air”.

Cameron: Did it give you literary analysis, or did you just look it up?

Deepa: Oh, the song – the song did not give me literary analysis, but don't worry, I have some literary analysis!

Cameron: Thank god. I am bummed, we don't get more play,

Deepa: I know, I know. Like yeah, I hate play behind-the-scenes. But I would love to get more play onstage stuff, ‘cause that would be fun.

Cameron: It'd be so fun to see them acting as their characters, like…and like, I just think that would be very fun. Especially Hanna seems like she's struggling with it a little bit. I don't know. I just think that would be – Spencer would probably take it too seriously.

Deepa: True, true. Are you familiar with The Bad Seed?

Cameron: No. I want you to tell me about it!

Deepa: Great! I did not read it. I did check the book out on my kindle from the library, and then failed to open it. I checked it out and was just like, “What am I doing like? I'm not reading. Like why would I prioritize this in my reading when I can just read about it?” But I'd hoped to find a version of the play, because plays are usually quicker reads. What I found was a one-act version of the play. So I read that, and the wikipedia entry, and I feel like I have a fairly good sense. Do you want me to tell you, like, the story?

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: Okay, so it's about this eight-year-old girl named Rhoda and her mother, Christine. Christine is, I think, more the main character – just in terms of agency and what she does. I think Spencer is playing Christine in the version of the play. I think she has basically the staring role. And Rhoda, while on a class picnic to somewhere near a river, a boy in her class named Claude falls into the river and drowns.

Cameron: And drowns?!

Deepa: And drowns. Yes. So at first no one thinks anything is suspicious with this, but over the course of the play-slash-book, you start to suspect Rhoda, because Rhoda had previously quarreled with Claude because he had won a penmanship competition.

Cameron: Which Spencer does talk about.

Deepa: Yes, and she really wanted the medal from that, and the medal is missing. So at one point, Claude's parents show up at Christine and Rhoda's house. Christine's father is, like, away for the whole thing, so he's not really a character. And Claude's mom is drunk – that's Hanna's character – because she's grieving, and she is really upset that she can't find the medal because the medal was important, because it was, like, pinned to his top, and so it couldn't have fallen off.

Cameron: Ohhh.

Deepa: And she's upset. This is what first makes Christine start to suspect – because her daughter – because her daughter had talked about the medal, and she goes through her daughter’s stuff and finds the medal. And then it's just, like, spiraling out of control, like her figuring out that not only did her daughter kill Claude, but there are suspicious deaths in the past that she's now thinking about. And then there's like a – they live in an apartment complex, I think, and there's someone who does maintenance named Leroy who is constantly teasing Rhoda about being evil, and he doesn’t actually think that she did this, but he gets too close with one of his like teasing things, so she kills him.

Cameron: Damn!

Deepa: She, like, sets his mattress on fire, and he dies!

Cameron: She sets his mattress on fire?!

Deepa: Yeah, so that they can think that he fell asleep smoking so that – you know Rhoda’s very smart.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So Leroy shows up in the episode at one point, because they're talking about, “Why does he suspect?” And Aria is like, or Spencer says, “Because he's childlike.” And I was like, that's weird. That's not at all the impression I got? Maybe in the book, but in the play it's more just like he's just, I don't know. He’s just, like weirdly teasing this child, and he gets too close, and then like realizes. I don't know. Anyway, at the end, Christine – oh, oh! And in between, Christine finds out that she was adopted, and that her birth mother was a famous serial killer! [laughs]

Cameron: Eye roll, eye roll!

Deepa: Who started killing at the age of ten, yeah!

Cameron: Oh my god! No! [both laugh]

Deepa: So at the end, she attempts to murder-suicide with Rhoda! She feeds Rhoda a bunch of sleeping pills [Cameron gasps], and then shoots herself, and her landlady hears the gunshot and comes and saves Rhoda. So Rhoda is alive at the end. But Christine is dead. Rhoda's father has come back from his work trip, or whatever, and, like, has no idea what happened or why his wife did this. So no one – so the end is supposed to be sinister because, like, no one knows that Rhoda is secretly evil.

Cameron: What? Ha! Ha! That's bananas!

Deepa: It is bananas! It was, like, super creepy even to read – because it's not just creepy in the sense of, like, the murders that happened. Like, the stuff that the janitor jokes with her about before he realizes that it's her is super fucked up. Like at one point he jokes about her being in an electric chair, I’m not kidding. It's so fucked up. Yeah. And this is when he doesn't think that this child – he thinks that this child is mean, but not has done murder? It's weird and gross and awful, so I'm glad I didn't read the book.

Cameron: Yeah, I am glad you didn't read the book, either.

Deepa: Ugh! Yeah.

Cameron: So does it answer the question, “Are we born evil or are we made evil?”

Deepa: So that is the central conflict of the of the play, as they aptly show in the episode. I think the book-slash-play is intended to prove nature over nurture, especially with the grandmother thing, right? “It's inherited!” But that's really interesting, because PLL is not. PLL's entire thesis is that we get – we have trauma, and that makes us do things, right? Like first, just in terms of, like, who is A and what's happened to them: Mona right now, like, everyone who's A has some – it's either like you got bullied as a child, or transphobia and transmisogyny, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And PLL also has, like a million evil twins, so evil twins are like fundamentally incompatible with the idea of, like, being born bad, right? Because, like, there's two people, and these are all identical twins that they came from the same egg, but they turned out differently!

Cameron: That’s a good point! I didn’t think about evil twin in and of itself disproves –

Deepa: – answers the nature versus nurture. [laughs]

Cameron: Yeah! [laughs]

Deepa: I was thinking about it because of the genetic link thing, because I was like, hmm, like, do we think that PLL is making an argument by having, like you know Alex and Mary Drake, and like all of that and like – but then I was like but no, because if that were true, then it would be Spencer, too. It would be Jessica, too. Right? Like that's not – they're making the opposite argument. So that's my take. Opposite views on nature versus nurture –

Cameron: Mhm.

Deepa: – of evil.

Cameron: So then why this play? Just because it's children being evil, and that's like a whole thing?

Deepa: Well – yeah. I guess so? ‘cause I don't feel like they ever talk about, like, "Why are people bad?" any other time, right? 

Cameron: They talked about it so much this episode.

Deepa: They talked about it so much this episode, and they don't identify any real reasons, like structural power and abuse, right? Like they only talk about – and, like, the play, the play has such a…it wasn't, like, super super emphasized, but there was a scene where Christine is talking to – so her father was – her adoptive father,  she learned – her adoptive father was an investigative journalist who focused on serial killers. That's how he adopted her, because she was the daughter of a serial killer that was caught.

Cameron: Jesus.

Deepa: And when she's – when she's talking to him, and another character, about crime, she's asking – like she's, at this point, suspicious of her daughter, and is asking like, “Can this start really young like? Are people just born bad?” And they're like, “Definitely, you can start very young.” And she's like, “Well, so is it genetic, or is it just like a product of their upbringing?” And they're like – and the way she frames upbringing is, like, impoverished, living in modes of scarcity, which is not her, right? She's, like, in this – she's in a very similar, like, upper middle class suburban perfection, you know, setting. So it's very clear that they're trying to, like, give her an out, in a way – like this was her fault in a sense, quote unquote, because of her mother, but not her fault in terms of what she gave to her daughter to raise her, you know? And so, if you if you do get people who come out of suburban middle-class land who are evil, then it's not your fault.

Cameron: It's not your fault, because –

Deepa: It’s only your fault if your bio mother was secretly a serial killer. [laughs]

Cameron: Oh my god.

Deepa: Which is why Chrisine dies at the end and no one else does who wasn’t murdered by Rhoda.

Cameron: Okay, but I think what's a really important question to ask is: who's evil and who's just naughty?

Deepa: [laughs] Rhoda might just be naughty! I don't know.

Cameron: I just love Mona so much.

Deepa: Mona’s so great. That was the main thing I was happy about, in that episode, was Mona being back after a long gap without her. I'm sorry that you had to go kill Mrs. Potter, Mona. I wish it hadn't taken such a long time.

Cameron: It took a toll on her, a little bit.

Deepa: I was also curious to know what role she had gotten, after having read it. The role she got was not very big. It’s not, like, a glamorous role. I think she was going out for the mom, and Spencer got it, because she appears to be like the teacher of their class, Rhoda and Claude's class. So yeah, maybe she was a little distracted. I also do wanna know who Jenna is inspired by.

Cameron: Yes, me too! I just love like the vagueness of, like, thinking about evil that they've been doing this episode.

Deepa: Yes, for sure, for sure. The other thing I thought about was, with this plotline about Christine's father being an investigative journalist: is that what Ezra thinks he is right now? Like, ughhh, you know?

Cameron: That's disgusting.

Deepa: Disgusting, disgusting. And, like, why did he choose this play?

Cameron: Ew! That’s the, like, insert character for him. Gross.

Deepa: Yup. Yup.

Cameron: Yikes.

Deepa: Adjacent literary analysis. Same episode, beginning of the episode: Spencer wakes up from a nightmare about babies, right, with Ian and the baby, and when she wakes up there's a book on her bed, and you can only, like, sort of see half of it underneath the covers. But I spent such a long time trying to figure out what the title was! I, like, took a screenshot, turned it upside down, and then kept googling. It turns out, it's not real. The only thing that came up finally, after I put the right combination of words, was the PLL wiki.

Cameron: So it's not, like, Rosemary's Baby.

Deepa: No. No, but it is a book called Bloody Tantrums: Child Mysteries.

Cameron: Child mysteries?

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Is that mysteries about children or mysteries for children?

Deepa: Unclear. Bloody Tantrums: Child Mysteries, by Francesca Rollins. Francesca Rollins is the name of the writer of this episode, so that's the in-joke there. But I don't know why Bloody Tantrums: Child Mysteries. Also isn't Rollins the name of – the fake name of Alison's future doctor-slash –

Cameron: – husband-slash-abuser. Yeah. Rollins.

Deepa: [laughs] So yeah, that's my main literary analysis for the episode. There was also a 1984 reference and I regret to say, I have not actually read 1984. So if you have any analysis –

Cameron: I’ve read 1984, but I think the analysis was just to deliver a line.

Deepa: I think it's just about surveillance and Big Brother, right?

Cameron: Yeah. It wasn't like anything more than, “Big Brother is always watching!”

Deepa: I felt like just culturally, I could interpret that.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't think you're missing –

Deepa: Okay, good. Yeah, I don’t know how I got away with never reading 1984. For some reason, I didn't do it in high school.

Cameron: I don't know.

Deepa: So that's my literary analysis.

Cameron: Thank you so much. I just I really appreciate you bringing that and respect you not reading the book for this.

Deepa: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I think it's creepy. And not so much because of what Rhoda does, like, because of the ways that people treat “crime” and “evil”. Gross.

Cameron: And children that are, like, predestined to be bad.

Deepa: Right? Which, like, in this episode, they're framing that as Alison, potentially, right?

Cameron: She pushed a girl down the stairs, maybe?

Deepa: Maybe. She maybe stalked Ian like he said. ‘cause he's trustworthy.

Cameron: That was garbage, Spencer.

Deepa: Are you fucking kidding me? Ugh. But again, even the show doesn't say that Alison – like this show’s ultimate interpretation of Alison is very much nurture-not-nature for whatever she did, right? She was a teenage girl who was, like, hyper-surveilled and oversexualized, and also gay and in love with her best friend, and, like, abused by so many adults. So many adults.

Cameron: So many adults. What did – Ian said something disgusting about her.

Deepa: He said, “She was a psycho stalker who never took no for an answer.”

Cameron: Yes, that is what I wrote down.

Deepa: Yeah. Horrifying.

Cameron: Which – that’s exactly what you would say about a child that you were like inappropriate with, and is now dead, like, what?

Deepa: Yes. But importantly, that's the entire point of, like, why we think of age mattering, because it shouldn't matter whether or not it was – right? She didn't physically overpower him at that age. You can't consent, which also means, you can't – you know?

Cameron: No, but, she was in charge. She had everyone wrapped around her finger. She was just doing all this manipulating, and – [laughs]

Deepa: Oh my fucking god. Ugh. So disgusting.

Cameron: So gross. “She was always on offense” is also what he said. As a coach, I think that is important to take note of.

Deepa: That may be true. But it’s, like – okay, so? [both laughing] Oh my god, yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: So much Ian in this.

Deepa: So much Ian, yeah, yeah. Okay. I had a thought about Melissa and the way she defends Ian, which is, you know – I was pissed at her for the way she's talking to Spencer and the way she defends Ian. But then it occurred to me: she still genuinely thinks that Spencer killed Alison. Right?

Cameron: Ha ha! Ooooooh. Oooooooooh.

Deepa: So is that where she is coming from? Is she coming from “Spencer is lying to hide her own –”  ‘cause she doesn't know that Melissa knows – right? Let's just hypothesize. Melissa thinks Spencer killed Alison, doesn’t know that Melissa knows and that Melissa covered for her – then, is, like, stealing her boyfriends, or whatever but, like, you know, trying to throw Ian under the bus for the murder that she committed.

Cameron: That she thinks that she committed, yeah.

Deepa: So is that where Melissa is coming from?

Cameron: Ooooooh! That makes sense!

Deepa: Still, she doesn't understand power dynamics and adults abusing children, obviously, she doesn't seem to care about that. But, like, it made slightly more sense to me from that framing.

Cameron:  But yeah – but, like, her just being like, “The only reason I could tolerate this is if I just believe she's sick.” [laughs]

Deepa: Exactly! Exactly. Yeah. [laughs] Does she mean “she's sick for killing Alison, not for –” like – “blaming Ian”? And for blaming Ian but because of that context. I don't know. That made me like slightly more understanding, not necessarily sympathetic.

Cameron:  No, that's very interesting. I have a question for you, because I feel like we sort of just played a devil's advocate. Can we call it – instead of devil's advocate, can we have another word for it that's, like, PLL-specific? [laughs]

Deepa: [laughing] PLL-specific devil’s advocate?

Cameron: I don't know what that would be, but I'm just gonna play – [laughs]

Deepa: Hmm! Hmm hmm hmm hmm. You know what, I think we should think about it. And I think also we should ask our listeners to think about it.

Cameron:  Yeah, email us!

Deepa: We have received zero emails. We have received a lot of texts from our friends, but zero emails.

Cameron:  I'm calling the recent one a “fan letter”, in which someone reached out to let us know that they have watched a movie that we were talking shit about, even though we have not seen, so… [laughs]

Deepa: I should also clarify that when I first saw the trailer for that movie and then talked about it here, I was watching the trailer for that movie with the person who's now watched it. So. [laughs]

Cameron: That's some intrigue. This is My Fake Boyfriend, the movie?

Deepa: My Fake Boyfriend, the movie.

Cameron: Well, I didn’t know that element of the story.

Deepa: We were looking for a queer movie to watch and were, like, watching trailers, apparently on Amazon.

Cameron: Wow. Okay.

Deepa: I still have not seen My Fake Boyfriend. Our fan has.

Cameron: Well, someone that we know – our fan – [laughs]

Deepa: – and said it wasn't bad, actually? Kind of recommended it. So. Yeah. Oh! I did also realize in that episode where we talked about that movie, we were talking about Riverdale, and I was teasing you about having watched some of Riverdale, blah blah blah. I completely forgot that Riverdale is now in the PLL universe, slash, vice versa because of fucking Original Sin.

Cameron: Oh my god!

Deepa: That's actually a connection, that's, like, real, question mark? ‘cause they do mention Riverdale specifically, right?

Cameron: So, like, everything is part of the Archie universe? 

Deepa: I guess so. Yeah. But Original Sin also is, like, weird not-the-same world as PLL, because Rosewood looks so different. [gasps] It's your favorite thing. Maybe it's an alternate universe!

Cameron: No! Don’t say that! [both laugh]

Deepa: Cameron loves alternate universes.

Cameron: I hate alternative universes.

Deepa: How much of this podcast is just me telling the listeners things you hate?

Cameron: My secrets!

Deepa: Cameron does hate alternate universes. It is true.

Cameron: They make me mad.

Deepa: [laughing] Oh, man. okay. Oh, there’s another thing I maybe understood better that puzzled us in the past. Okay, so they find the trophy, they think it has blood on it, it's Ian's trophy from Hilton Head –

Cameron: Fake trophy from Hilton Head!

Deepa: Fake trophy from Hilton Head. I don't think – I don't think I had really understood the fake part of it before, though. Do the police think that the Liars made the trophy?

Cameron: I think so.

Deepa: Okay, I didn’t understand that before.

Cameron: I didn't understand that before either. Because why wouldn't there be a trophy from Hilton Head with rats’ blood on it? [laughs]

Deepa: [laughing] Yeah, exactly. Totally checks out. Because I think in the past we've been like, why are they getting so accused for this? They turned in – like, they had a bad piece of evidence, but why are they getting blamed for it? But if the idea is that they are trying to you know –

Cameron: – make –

Deepa: – yeah, fake –

Cameron: – create evidence, yeah.

Deepa: But their parents don't think so. Their parents think that they were tricked, and that it was a prank. So anyway, I'm glad you also picked up on that. Also, we confirmed Hilton Head is for abortions!

Cameron: But she did not actually get an abortion at Hilton Head!

Deepa: Such a TV thing! Abortions are so taboo on TV that you have to go and have a miscarriage before you actually go and do the abortion to, like, be morally pure or whatever, right? Isn’t that what happened with that? Don't you think?

Cameron: Yeah – you know – remember that time we were playing that game and I won. But then I guess I didn't win because there wasn't actually an abortion?

Deepa: Oh my god, I completely forgot about that. Thank you for bringing that up.

Cameron: That was fucked up! I feel personally –

Deepa: We were watching a movie called – a gay movie called A New York Christmas Wedding, which is a lesbian movie that is quite strange, I would say.

Cameron: Very weird.

Deepa: And there – and we were playing bingo. We had, like, made up bingo terms to play it with our friend Dylan, who was on our last episode –

Cameron: Oh yeah, remember him?

Deepa: [laughs] And one of the terms was abortion, and Cameron got a bingo because one of the characters had an abortion, right? And then later, it was revealed that she actually just had a miscarriage, because she didn't go through with the abortion.

Cameron: But I don't believe I lost. So – I still believe I won.

Deepa: I don’t know about that. [laughs] I completely forgot about that. Yeah, it's exactly the same thing.

Cameron: Like, oof, just the gymnastics of that.

Deepa: You can talk about abortion, but you can't actually go through with it. You can just think about it and plan it. What? Like, what do they even gain? Is it just the idea that, like, Melissa's wife and mother thing that would be violated by a previous abortion? I guess so.

Cameron: Oh god.

Deepa: Because of course people who have abortions never want kids.

Cameron: Right. It is interesting…so, she was gonna have an abortion. She had a miscarriage before getting an abortion, and was like, “And this is why that this baby is so special.” [both crack up] Like, what is going on here? Your baby can be special for whatever reason!

Deepa: For whatever reason! Your baby isn’t more special because you didn’t have previous baby! Or less special, right? That’s not a thing!

Cameron: Or because you tried to terminate a baby but the baby wasn’t able to be terminated?

Deepa: But the baby wasn’t there? Ugh. Yeah.

Cameron: [laughing] I was like, what is going on?

Deepa: Melissa. Melissa.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Melissa was still being extremely chaotic even if I understand her, like, one percent better.

Cameron: Yeah. It is good to – I'm glad you remind me, because I do forget that Melissa did cover up and maybe do a murder, because she thought Spencer did a murder. [laughs]

Deepa: She did do a murder. [laughs] I think she did do a murder.

Cameron: Yeahhh, she did. She did the burying.

Deepa: I can’t remember if she knew that Bethany was alive or not, but she definitely did the murder, whether she knew it or not.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I think she must have known Bethany was alive, because otherwise, how would we know? She was the only person who saw Bethany. Right? Like, we get that story from Melissa's perspective. She sends a video thing to Spencer about what happened that night, remember?

Cameron: Oh right! Yes, I do remember that. That's funny. But yeah, I appreciate you continuing to remind me, because its just, like, always slips my brain.

Deepa: No, it slips mine, too. I think, you know, on this rewatch, we're realizing a lot of things that we usually don't because we're not talking to each other as we watch the episodes.

Cameron:  Yeah, that is true.

Deepa: Oh, man!

Cameron: I – it is funny, just going back to the trophy being covered in rat’s blood, and it is the dead rat that was Spencer. Spencer the rat’s blood.

Deepa: Yes, it's very funny. Mona!

Cameron: Yeah. So that, just nice touches, you know?

Deepa: Definitely. Definitely. My dad has taken to watching the PBS News Hour every day. And for some reason, yesterday on PBS News Hour, there was a whole segment about the rat epidemic across America.

Cameron: It’s everywhere? I thought it was just in New York.

Deepa: No, apparently, it's everywhere. They're interviewing people in DC, in Chicago. Apparently, this is just the culmination of years of this coming, and it's now reached a peak.

Cameron: We’re at peak rat?!

Deepa: According to the rodentologist that they interviewed. [laughs]

Cameron: Ewww!

Deepa: They also said we should be thankful for rats, because rats have probably extended our lifespan by 30 to 40 years because of medical testing. So rodentologist said, “Next time you see a rat on the street, call and report it, but also say ‘thank you’.” [laughs]

Cameron: I’m not going to do that. Call and say “thank you”? Has that rodentologist ever had a weird smell in their apartment that they weren't sure what it was, and then, upon investigating the living room, uncovered the giantest dead rat –

Deepa: – giantest dead rat –

Cameron: – lying on a chair??

Deepa: – lying on the arm of a chair, underneath a blanket, like –

Cameron: ‘cause, like – I don’t – where do you go from there?

Deepa: Where you go from there is Cameron and I stand on a couch and scream, like two femmes do, and our other friends take care of it. [both laughing] Also that where you go from there is you refer to that apartment as “Rat City” for the rest of your life.

Cameron: That’s – [laughs]

Deepa: Yeah, we had a real rat problem the first time we lived together.

Cameron: Such a rat problem!

Deepa: That wasn’t the only one. Do you remember the rat that, like, ran to the top of the coat rack?

Cameron: Of course!

Deepa: Because he was being chased by our cat, who wouldn't kill it! He’d just play with it!

Cameron: So, like, we're not – what was the word you said?

Deepa: Rodentologists?

Cameron: We are not rodentologists, but we do have a lot of experience.

Deepa:  We do have a good amount of experience with rats. Yes. Yes. [cracks up] Oh, listeners, I cannot describe to you how this rat, clearly, like, went on our arm – went on our chair, crawled underneath a blanket that was draped over it, and then died, like, on the armrest of the chair – fortunately a chair that no one sat in, ever, because it just happened to be on, like, the wrong side of the living room for it to be useful – and it just crawled in there and died!

Cameron: It tucked itself in! [both laughing]

Deepa: And then we didn't find it till it started smelling! Disgusting!

Cameron: So we don't know how long that –

Deepa: Then we moved out of that apartment. which, to be fair, we were paying like –

Cameron: No dollars.

Deepa: $300 each for, or something.

Cameron: It might have been $500, but like –

Deepa: I think it was less than $500. But it was also ten years ago. So.

Cameron: That was nice.

Deepa: $300 is an exaggeration, but I think it was under $500.

Cameron: Nice. Well, you know.

Deepa: Each, to be clear, not $500 for the whole apartment.

Cameron: Each, yes, each. [clears throat]

Deepa: [laughing] Oh, Rat City. Yeah, rodentologist should probably spend a little time in Rat City before thanking the rats. [both keep laughing] We are getting so off track.

Cameron: Okay, okay, sorry. Business. Business.

Deepa: Oh, man! Yeah. The whole frat party plot line is just – comes out of nowhere, because it's one of those things where one of them remembers it, and then it becomes like a focal point of the episode. You know what I mean? Because this is a random memory that suddenly is, like, so important. What? I guess just because Ian was there? And someone…didn't die, question mark? Did she die?

Cameron: I don't think died.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: They would tell us if she died, right? It would be more dramatic.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, but I don't know, it was a pretty bad fall.

Cameron: It was terrible!

Deepa: Also, question. I have never been to a frat party. Did they ask for IDs?

Cameron: Absolutely not.

Deepa: [laughing] Why would you need an ID to go to a frat party? That’s the whole point of not going to a bar.

Cameron: You’re not going to a bar, they would not ID you.

Deepa: Oh my god. [laugh]

Cameron: Ali is sort of wearing a maroon, and, like, sparkle version of the Yellow Top at the frat party.

Deepa: This is the thing: a lot of Ali’s tops really are just the same top in different colors and some small adjustments.

Cameron: It’s so weird.

Deepa: I don't know why. Like, some of the others are dressed okay in that.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I think Aria is wearing a nice dress at the frat party. But, yeah. Alison’s fashion…I mean, she looks good, because, like, she's pretty, but like it is – yeah, it is weird. It's very weird.

Cameron: It is funny to, like, look for meaning in memories, like – like, you're having this current experience, and you're like, “Oh, but remember this time we were also all together?” [Deepa laughs] Like, right? Like it's just something to that that's very, like, I don't know.

Deepa: Hmm, no, I like that…say more?

Cameron: I don't have more. The only thing I do have to say about when Alison said she was there to make memories, I was just like, ah, Tim Riggins. [both laugh]

Deepa: Yes, that's fair. The other thing that made me think of Friday Night Lights was: I didn't know what a booster club was until Friday Night Lights. So thank you to both Cameron and Friday Night Lights, for teaching me why Ian is looking for the Varsity Booster Club.

Cameron: You’re welcome. Do you think that the Varsity girls field hockey team has boosters that are like as – [laughs]

Deepa: Like the boosters in Friday Night Lights?

Cameron: – yes – committed, and demanding.

Deepa: Like in the Texas football town?? I don't think so, because they hired Ian to coach! I don't think they could be that committed. They probably would have hired someone who, like, is professional? I don't know.

Cameron: Oh, yeah. And the meetings at the school like, that's not – like that's not a big scene, if it's at the school, not at like a swanky something else –

Deepa: – restaurant, brunch thing. Yeah, exactly.

Cameron: Okay

Deepa: I also have no idea when…is that that same summer? Like, what – when does any of this stuff happen? When did Ian and Melissa start dating?

Cameron: Very question mark.

Deepa: Did they start dating that same year that then they broke up, and then Spencer and Ian dated, like –

Cameron: Ew.

Deepa: Do they only date for like two months or something? And now she's married to him? Ugh.

Cameron: Ugh. We know time doesn't actually occur on the same – [laughs]

Deepa: That's true. That's true. Also, I mean, this did help us understand how – I think you talked in a previous podcast episode about using Melissa's pregnancies as a time thing – but the miscarriage and abortion are the same –

Cameron: Yeah, it doesn't actually help.

Deepa: Still no one has explained why they went from Philadelphia to South Carolina to get an abortion.

Cameron: No, but it feels good to be right, though.

Deepa: [cracks up] It does!             

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I feel like every episode, I'm like, “There's not much to talk about with Ezra and Aria, but let's just get it out of the way.” But there's always more to talk about, because they're so central.

Cameron: You can’t escape them.

Deepa: But I just – I – yeah, that's the problem with the play episode. It's disgusting. They're like – the way that he blames Aria for the scheduling mistake, just because he's, like, annoyed – what? It's just – that and the scene in the classroom with the Boo Radley discussion and To Kill a Mockingbird, many episodes ago – Ezra’s just so fucking petty, and uses his position to punish Aria socially. Right? Like it may not seem like a huge deal, but obviously it's a huge deal – in front of all her classmates, and to punish other kids too, right?

Cameron: And, like, this is an extension of that, or kind of the same thing, but, like, when he got beer with fucking Byron for whatever fucking goddamn reason, and Byron mentioned that Aria is looking at schools in California, and Ezra just like flips the switch, like, “Oh, well, fuck, maybe I need to, like, fucking get out of here.” [both laugh] Like what is going on?

Deepa: I hate him. Hate him.

Cameron: Like, the idea that you might be having a little bit less of a grasp on her?

Deepa: Right. Right. You have less control over her.

Cameron: Less control is just, like, this fucking spinning…

Deepa: Right. Well. I was thinking, too, about his reasoning for potentially taking up Byron's offer is that he wants more time for his writing, right? But.

Cameron: Ahhhh!

Deepa: But the reason he is teaching at Rosewood High is to write a book –

Cameron: – is for writing!

Deepa: Okay. So that's number one. Does that mean that he now is secure enough in Aria as his information source that he no longer needs to teach there? And can then go work on the networking part of writing at the college, where they're offering him a class despite him having just a Master's degree, and, like, just having finished a Master’s degree and zero teaching experience? I mean, like two months of teaching experience in high school, I guess. [laugh]

Cameron: So he's like, his research is set. He has one source. Yes, he's good to go.

Deepa: Yeah. So he's like, well, maybe I should be doing what I need to do for myself in the other parts of this book. That's my interpretation.

Cameron: Ewww! [laughs]

Deepa: Because, like, why did he come to Rosewood in the first place? That's why.

Cameron: That’s why, yeah.

Deepa: I don't think he expected to seduce a teenager to the point where he can get that much information from her. He probably expected to need to connect with multiple teenagers.

Cameron: Seduce multiple teenagers.

Deepa: Oh, god!

Cameron: Question. So, like, in the information he's getting from Aria: do we think that he already knew about the Jenna thing?

Deepa: I was wondering about that. Yeah. I don't know how much Ezra knows about A or the Jenna thing. Yeah. That's an open question for me as well.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I think I want to say that he doesn't? ‘cause, like, just – I mean, because I think he's treating Aria like an information source. Right? So I think – obviously, he ends up finding out a lot more stuff that Aria doesn't know herself – but I think at this point he is learning those things from Aria.

Cameron: So, like, that was her telling him and not him being like, oh, okay, yeah, I already know.

Deepa: I think so. Otherwise what is the point of him seducing her, from his perspective?

Cameron: From his – yeah, from his end goals, or whatever? Yeah.

Deepa: And I'm not sure he knows about A yet either, ‘cause does she – I can't remember now, does she mention A in that conversation, or just tells him about the Jenna thing?

Cameron: I don't think A was in that conversation.

Deepa: Okay. But he will learn about A soon. And I do think he's the first partner to get an explanation about A.

Cameron: He is! Yeah.

Deepa: Toby has now seen the word A, but that wasn't Spencer trying to open up to him? Also, like, Toby's actually involved.

Cameron: Toby's, like, been framed, been –

Deepa: [laughs] Toby’s in the center of this right now.

Cameron: Yeah, like, Toby needs some help and some information, I think.

Deepa: Okay, we're still on Ezra and Byron: I did give Byron worst parent instead of the Hastingses, just because…somehow that's worse! Somehow, him taking Ezra out to a bar and talking him up the way he does, and, like, offering him things, is so much worse! [laughs]

Cameron: Yeah, I agree.

Deepa: So much worse than him having, like, masculinity stand-off with Ezra over Ella in the last set of episodes. I would take that over this. Ugh.

Cameron: Yeah, just like the way – yeah, I hated that whole scene.

Deepa: Horrible.

Cameron: And like, I'm kind of happier – I'm happy that he's like shorter than him, maybe? In some respects, like – I don't know, maybe that hurts him a little bit.

Deepa: Wait, this is so bad, I didn't notice which one is shorter. Which one is shorter?

Cameron: Byron’s shorter

Deepa: Byron’s shorter. That checks out.

Cameron: The whole family is short.

Deepa: Yes, okay. Sure.

Cameron: So that made me a little happy. Not that I'm like happy that Ezra is taller than, but, like, I just want Byron to feel bad.

Deepa: I do want Byron to feel bad. Yeah, yeah. But also, like – I don't think he cares now, because he's now decided Ezra is, like, wunderkind. And now he's like – I don’t know, he's like – they're just in a mutual jerk-off session. What the fuck is happening?

Cameron: Oh, yeah. “I read your stuff, bro. Fucking brilliant.”

Deepa: “It’s so good. You’re wasting your time at that school.” Like, does Byron just want to be him now? Is that –

Cameron: I don't know. It's so weird.

Deepa: This is completely unrelated, but for some reason my mind just went to Steve Carrell and Ryan Gosling in Crazy Stupid Beautiful, that's what that movie is called right?

Cameron: Crazy Stupid Love, right?

Deepa: Crazy Stupid Love, sorry, yes. Yeah. I just feel like, maybe there’s an element of that. [laughs] Byron's, like, single and on the town now –

Cameron: Ew. And he's needing his little, like, help. [laughs]

Deepa: Wait, I guess he's not single, he's having a secret affair with Ella. Still. I don't know, something about – [laughs]

Cameron: [laughing] Ew!

Deepa: Sorry, I haven't thought about that movie in fucking years. But anyway, go on with your probably much more relevant –

Cameron: Nope. It's gone. It's left the building.

Deepa: Sorry! Sorry.

Cameron: It's fine. I'm sure it was also nonsense, so.

Deepa: Who did you give best parent to?

Cameron: I mean, I was struggling because, Ashley I was upset with in the beginning, and –

Deepa: And then she gets better.

Cameron: – and then she did try. But, like, there's no one else that I could possibly give it to,

Deepa: I know. Like I guess Ella was there for a minute, so we could give it to her because she was at the police station.

Cameron: That was my other one, was like, Ella question mark? for, like, showing up.

Deepa: I basically was like, I don't think I can give a best parent, so let's go with Ella. Because I was mad at Ashley.

Cameron: I was mad at Ashley.

Deepa: Even the end is only good because we know that that continues. If you're looking at this episode as an individual thing, it's still not that great that she, like, decided to let this kid – you know? It’s only because we know they will have a good relationship, and she will love him.

Cameron: I think I was just, like, reading it through that. I – yeah, cause I was just like, ugh, I haven't seen another parent.

Deepa: I know! Pam wasn't even there. She had to be, like, out calling Wayne. [laughs]

Cameron: I did notice that!

Deepa: Aww!

Cameron: Now that you’ve keyed me into the people saying, “Oh, so and so just stepped out, they had to...” That cracks me up.

Deepa: I feel like commentary that you've learned from me is, like, stuff like that, and also maybe how to tell when people are extras. I don't know if you care about that enough to pick up on it.

Cameron: Oh, you did tell me that! You did teach me that.

Deepa: I love noticing when people are extras! They don’t have any lines, they just kind of stand there and nod!

Cameron: I just think I’m a better observer of regular life than I am of media. I just, like, don’t notice so many things. [laughs]

Deepa: I was just thinking – because I’m a horrible observer of regular life so maybe there is a relationship there. An inverse relationship. Because I notice what people are wearing on PLL.

Cameron: You do, yeah.

Deepa: I don't know what you're wearing right now! That's a lie, I do know what you’re wearing.

Cameron: You do. Yeah, so maybe there's something there. ‘cause I'll, you know, watch TV with my current roommate, and she'll just make observations that I'm like, “What?”

Deepa: Which is funny because I’m assuming, too, a lot of that is Grey’s Anatomy, which you have seen many times over.

Cameron: Yeah! Or, like, cooking competition shows where she’ll just be like, “The lighting in this is really fucked up!” And I’m like, “…oh.”

Deepa: That's really funny.

Cameron: I’ll be like, “Oh, I didn't. Huh!” I don't know. It’s like continuity things, set things.

Deepa: That’s so funny. Interesting.

Cameron: I don’t know, I’m just here, having a good time. [laughs] Since we're talking about you observing outfits, should we do fashion?

Deepa: Yes. For worst I had – I was very mixed on Aria’s tuxedo shirt. At first, I hated it, then I went back to rewatch that scene for something else. And on second view, I was like, “Hmm! Maybe I don't hate it. Maybe I would like it if it were in another setting.” I think it's weird to just, like, wear to school, but it is maybe in like some like formal thing, it would be cute? I don't know. I don't know. So I ended up going with a different Aria outfit, which was – I think, it was in episode 19 – she has this, like, high collared frilly white shirt with a red blazer on top. 

Cameron: Disgusting! I was also considering the tuxedo shirt, but it didn't compare.

Deepa: Oh my god, we're so good!

Cameron: It looked like she was about to ride a horse in whatever time period.

Deepa: And it was weird in a non-Aria way. Like if Spencer wore that, I would at least be like, that checks out. But that was not an Aria outfit. Very strange.

Cameron: No, it was so weird.

Deepa: It was so bad. So bad. Aria also had a bad hat in the play. Yeah. But the rest of the outfit wasn't horrible enough for me to –

Cameron: No, I couldn't – couldn't give that. I had couple contenders for good outfits. I liked – Spencer wears kind of a weird sweater? [laughing]

Deepa: Okay, is it the one that kind of looks like a poncho?

Cameron: Yeah!

Deepa: [laughing] That was on my worst list!

Cameron: I, I like it. Like, if it was a crop top, I think it'd be perfect.

Deepa: It was pretty long, and I think that, and just like the giantness of the sleeves…like they weren't even really sleeves. That's what – right?

Cameron: So I liked that. And I also liked – Hanna had like a nice green shirt with some lace going on, I think in the second episode. I also appreciate her boning outfit.

Deepa: Wait! Remind me which one is the boning outfit.

Cameron: It's like a lace leotard, maybe, or just tank top tucked into like army pants. I liked that one.

Deepa: Oh, okay, yes, yes, okay. Interesting! We didn't overlap at all. I mean, I only had one. I chose Hanna's pink, sleeveless shirt with something, like, little studded or something things on it. But honestly, mostly it was because of her braid. Her braid was really good, like she had this – like she had a side – the top of her head was braided, and then it was loose, but, like it was like two things. It was almost – I think it was like two French braids coming together to be one braid. It was really cool. It somehow didn't get messed up by her accidentally being in the shower twice!

Cameron: That's, like, some good technology there for braid.

Deepa: So that was my favorite. That's funny.

Cameron: Oh, my gosh!

Deepa: I think I liked the green top as well. But army pants plus lace top, eh. The Spencer one is funny.

Cameron: Controversial take here, but I like it.

Deepa: Speaking of Hanna and Caleb: so glad that was happening alongside like horrible Ezra stuff, because I needed that very much. They’re so cute.

Cameron: I love just, like, Hanna avoiding him and being flustered after seeing him naked.

Deepa: I like Caleb finding it amusing at first, but then also being hurt, a little bit, like “Aw, wait!” So the only part of Hanna and Caleb I didn't enjoy this episode is the thing where they tried to get him to break into Jenna's phone, because Caleb is absolutely right. They're horrible.

Cameron: Horrible people.

Deepa: I mean, not, like, particularly because she's blind, but also yes, because it is an accessibility device, right?

Cameron: And it's beyond him.

Deepa: Well I was wondering if it is really beyond him. Because right now he’s spying on them for Jenna, right?

Cameron: Oh, fuck! You're right. Probably not do the double cross.

Deepa: But yeah, so, I don't know. Maybe it is, but it just seems like Caleb can get into anything, like –

Cameron: But the phone is from 2020, Deepa!

Deepa: Oh, god! So far away from then!

Cameron: What did Caleb know?

Deepa: Oh, man. In my very sporadic attempts to cultivate a twitter account for us, for this podcast, I go through the PLL tag on Twitter once in a while. And I was going through it recently, and there is just a number of tweets by this person who is basically trying to excuse Ezra/Aria, as you know, bleh, which isn't necessary because the show does it for you! So, like, why are you out here doing it yourself? But one of their things was like, “What Ezra does is no different than what Caleb did in season one, and Toby does in season –,” blah blah blah. and I was like, Toby, sure, I mean, it's still – Ezra’s still worse. But, like, Toby – we are equally critical of Toby.

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: But Caleb spies on Hanna for, like, three episodes and then decides not to.

Cameron: Yeah, I don’t think we can call that anywhere near –

Deepa: No!

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Like the moment he is feeling uncomfortable about it, he calls it off. Also, again, he is a teenager who is in survival mode. He is not profiting off of this. He is subsisting off of this. He needs a place to sleep at night, and he needs money to maybe try to find his mom in Arizona, like, what? God. Yeah. Anyway.

Cameron: Oh, apparently it is actually called a “motor court”.

Deepa: Ohhhhh! The name of the thing is motor court!Cameron: Hanna refers to it as a motor court.

Deepa: I was wondering if it was the same place Wren stayed, because it looks like the same set. But that makes sense. Okay. Oh, so that wasn't him just being weirdly British? Interesting.

Cameron: I guess not. But like, why would it – so weird?

Deepa: You gotta try to jazz up your name, like, you know?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Everyone has weird connotations with motels, except for those people in Canada who did that weird show that we watched. What was that show called again? [laughs]

Cameron: Come back, Motel Makeover.

Deepa: Motel Makeover! I think they were reclaiming motels.

Cameron: They were definitely reclaiming motels and making them more expensive.

Deepa: Putting terrazzo everywhere, making everyone drunk all the time. Listeners, if you have not experienced a reality show called Motel Makeover on Netflix – it is, I think, a perfect hate watch. It is so bad, but in a very entertaining way, but you also will not come out the other end feeling like you've gained any sympathy by accident, you know.

Cameron: Oooh, that’s a risk.

Deepa: ‘cause sometimes you do that with hate-watching, right? Yeah, you don't come out being like, actually, this was good all along.

Cameron: No…

Deepa: You come out knowing what terrazzo is.

Cameron: I send Deepa pictures, not that infrequently, whenever I encounter terrazzo in the wild. [bth laugh] I – going back to things I hate –

Deepa: That doesn't narrow things down at all.

Cameron: I know, but like: Scrabble?

Deepa: Wait! I wanna make a comparison for you and see how you feel about it. Okay. So we have this – we have this scene where all the couples are together. Hanna and Caleb are camping out, having sex for the first time. Ezra and Aria are having dinner, and Aria is, like, dressed up in a hot outfit which I hate, but. [clicks teeth] Paige and Emily are doing karaoke. And then we cut to Spencer and Toby playing Scrabble, and it reminded me of an equally funny –

Cameron: Ahhh!

Deepa: Do you know what I’m talking about?

Cameron: I know exactly what you’re talking about! You’re talking about Wes studying.

Deepa: [laughing] Somehow all of these comparisons are always to How to Get Away with Murder.

Cameron: Everyone is banging.

Deepa: Everyone is banging, except for Wes, who’s studying in his apartment.

Cameron: That's amazing. Thank you. I don't know if that, like, saves Scrabble for me, but that might just be like a personal issue.

Deepa: That might be a personal issue, yeah. I don’t know what could save Scrabble for you.

Cameron: You know I can't spell, right? So I think that's a huge problem. But, like, the scoring of it seems incredibly arbitrary. Why is everything just a triple word, a double letter, a double bonus thing bingo pack? Like it doesn’t make any sense.

Deepa: You also, like – when they do Scrabble on TV and movies, it's almost always someone doing a word that is all seven of their letters, which, like, never happens unless you're like a professional scrabbler, or whatever, right? Like, you're usually building off of other words. So that's what I’m irritated about. [laughing]

Cameron: “It's not realistic!”

Deepa: I did enjoy that Toby's word was “goofball”, though –

Cameron: That’s kind of cute.

Deepa: – to Spencer’s, like, “glycerine”, or whatever.

Cameron: To Spencer’s “glyce-sylo-harp”, yeah. [both laugh]

Deepa: Does Spencer at some point get him, like, an engraved Scrabble set? That's real, right?

Cameron: Something like that. Yeah, no, I think that happens. Yeah. [laughs]

Deepa: Oh man.

Cameron: Yeah. So that’s maybe the last of my hate for the episode.

Deepa: The last of your hate?

Cameron: Maybe. Maybe.

Deepa: That’s impressive. [laughs] We did get our first appearance with Garrett.

Cameron: We do! We already – [laughs]

Deepa: We have previewed his appearance.

Cameron: We did let people know.

Deepa: And I did look up his name. It is Yani Gelman. He does not sing in this episode, or at any other time at the other time in PLL, unfortunately.

Cameron: That is disappointing.

Deepa: I guess the question is, can he sing, or can he not sing? Lizzie Maguire Movie does not tell us if the bad singing or the good singing is him. You know.

Cameron: No, we don't – we don't know. It's unanswered. I do…so. He's a cop, and he has grown up with the Liars in some capacity, used to live next Emily, and he's like not like, butthurt, but, like – surprised, maybe? – when his boss asked him to, like, look into them. You know? And I'm like, what do you think this is?

Deepa: Do you know what being a cop is? Especially in a small town.

Cameron: You're gonna have to, like, investigate these people you know, and maybe, like, are friendly with – like, what? It's gonna be bad.

Deepa: Even if you weren't in a town that had a million murders, the entire job of being a cop in a small town is to do that, and to, like, get people for DUIs or whatever, like. Even if it wasn't murder, it would be other stuff that would be just as relying on your small-town connections.

Cameron: Yeah, your alleged community. Like. Are you surprised? I don't know.

Deepa: You'd have to be, like, tracking down Mike when he like steals. [both laugh]

Cameron: Is Garrett on the Mike beat?

Deepa: I think if there weren’t murder, Garrett would probably be on the Mike beat! Or he'd be like, you know, harassing people experiencing homelessness from, like, being in the town at all, or like, you know?

Cameron: Absolutely.

Deepa: So yeah, that's your job.

Cameron: That's your job. Literally your job. And it sucks. So maybe get a new one.

Deepa: Mhm. He will not. He will get killed on a train instead.

Cameron: He will get murdered.

Deepa: Garrett was making me think of Jenna, even though there isn't a connection yet. But we have, in this episode, the introduction of flute music, as another cue of “sinisterness” – is Jenna playing the flute, like –

Cameron: Oh, well, she's playing the flute, so.

Deepa: Sometimes it's recorded! [laughs]

Cameron: Oh! I love that.

Deepa: I know, I forgot that it wasn’t actually her playing.

Cameron: It's so funny, and just like a bag of ice saying, “You're getting colder.” Thank you, Mona.

Deepa: Thank you. Amazing. But there is one other moment…in the bathroom scene with Aria, they do a thing where Aria is looking down at her hands and looks back at the mirror, and Jenna was there, even though she wasn't there a moment ago. It's, like, the complete opposite of reality. How are you getting away with this, like, “she sneaks up on people”. What? How did they get away with it?

Cameron: It's – they're just – yeah, it's bullshit.

Deepa: It doesn't make any sense! Oh my god.

Cameron: And, like, her writing a story about it is also deemed threatening to Aria and potentially Aria's relationship.

Deepa: Well, and I think it's also, like, implicating Toby now, which, like, now the Liars are against, right?

Cameron: Right. Yeah.

Deepa: Even though they're the ones responsible for implicating Toby, or Alison is at least.

Cameron: Yep.

Deepa: And, like, these are like – these are the quiet ableism moments.

Cameron: And there's also, like – it is interesting, like – the way Ezra is talking about Jenna's short story, or fiction essay, or whatever, is also wild. He's just like, “How does a family move past that?” And it's like, your child being disabled? People do that all the time. Like, what do you…?

Deepa: Yeah, absolutely.

Cameron: And, like, what? Like, “this parent” – like it was just this – he couldn't – and maybe he was trying to, like, poke at Aria and keep bringing it up to get more information. But just, like, the way he was so awed by her story was so, like…I don't know.

Deepa: I do feel like – because he brought up Toby, I do feel like a piece is supposed to be, like, Toby doing this, like, “How does the family get past like Toby doing this to Jenna?” But I do think you're right, though, that he's also just being like, “Being disabled is the end of your life.”

Cameron: It's the end of your life, the end of your family's life.

Deepa: The end of happiness for anyone. Yeah. That only becomes true for Jenna, because of how, like, targeted she is for it! Like, because of the harm that she's faced, not because of the fact of being blind. She is actually doing her life!

Cameron: Just, people are fucking. Horrible. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: What do we think about Emily taking off the bracelet?

Deepa: Oh. Did I miss that? When did she do that?

Cameron: Post-coming back from the picnic with Paige.

Deepa: Okay. Okay. Is it after the conversation where they all are like, “Maybe Alison did this!” Or is it before that?

Cameron: I'm not sure. I don't – it didn't feel related to that, but it felt like related to just kind of, like, oh like, maybe I need to move on a little bit.

Deepa: Okay. No, I obviously didn't notice it, but. Interesting! Yeah. Yeah, she's the only one who wears it. And she did – you know, she was sort of playing with it when she tells Paige about being in love with Alison. I did – side note – I did love Paige saying, “She seemed like she was a very dynamic person.”

Cameron: I loved that! [both laugh]

Deepa: She, like, homophobically bullied you, relentlessly!

Cameron: That's, like, something you put on the –

Deepa: Yeah!

Cameron: [laughing] – I don't know, some sort of…“dynamic person”. Ahhh!

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. It just felt like a big moment.

Deepa: Yes, yes, no, that is interesting, because it's not –do we ever get Emily talking to Maya about Alison? I think we do at some point, right? Maybe not. Maybe not.

Cameron: Oh, there's something to, like, naming it, and talking about it.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. And it does – if it's after she came back from the picnic, it also feels connected to, you know, the theme of hiding, or keeping your relationship secret, or feeling ashamed? So I guess that is maybe what she's putting to rest, more than Alison herself, ‘cause they've all – they all go through so many periods of trying to, like, put Alison to rest. Yeah. Thank you for picking up on that because I did not.

Cameron: Well, I was like, wait, what did she throw in the box?! I was like, ohhh! Yeah, it is a little – I was like, that seems important.

Deepa: Yes. Yes, for sure. Oh, the bracelets. This is something I want to keep noticing: I wonder at what point A, in her messages, stops pretending to be Alison. Not that A is entirely pretending, but, stops framing it as – you know, the last text in 19 was, “Spencer Hastings is now a person of interest in my death.”

Cameron: “In my death,” yeah.

Deepa: That ends at some point. Does that end with Mona? Does it end before then? I don't know.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: ‘cause I don't think they really think it's Alison at this point, even though they wonder if Alison's alive, sometimes. I don't actually think they think it's Alison.

Cameron: No, I think not. Maybe the first couple – right? But I don't think now, since there's been a body. Yeah. I don’t think – [laughs]

Deepa: A body wearing the right shirt. [both laugh]

Cameron: A body wearing the right shirt at the right time.

Deepa: Potentially wearing a bracelet that says “Alison”? Like. [both laugh] Yeah.

Cameron: Well, I guess we can move on to the other segment.

Deepa: Yes. You have a recipe for us?

Cameron: I do. I was hanging out with my mother frequently, recently, and I asked her what her favorite chickpea recipe was, and it's kind of like a take on a Greek salad, I would say. There's no lettuce, so it's just like chickpeas, and bell peppers, and cucumbers, and, I think, green onion, and feta, and then, like, a lemon juice, olive oil dressing. Very good, very summery. Not right-now season, I guess, necessarily.

Deepa: It is warm where I am right now. Yeah. I'm, like, sweating.

Cameron: So, yeah, very simple, very – yeah, nice.

Deepa: Nice! That sounds delicious. I do love a Greek salad.

Cameron: Me too.

Deepa: And that sounds like you can dress it and leave it for a while, because you don’t have to worry about any greens wilting.

Cameron: Right! So you can just keep it in the fridge.

Deepa: Amazing. Well, should we close? Do you want to close us out?

Cameron: Oh, sure! Thanks for coming, and until next time: act normal bitches!

Deepa: “Thanks for coming!” [laughs]