Don't Forget the Chickpeas

Episodes 1.16 & 1.17: "I Like Complicated"

• Deepa & Cameron • Season 1 • Episode 9

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Content notes: we don’t usually warn for things that happen in PLL itself, but from 27:30 to 31:35, our special guest talks about homophobic and transphobic bullying and assault that he faced in high school, especially playing water polo.

Also: this podcast was recorded months ago, but we stand strongly in support with Palestinian liberation and against the genocide Israel is perpetrating in the name of apartheid and settler colonialism. We decry efforts to erase the decades of structural violence against Palestinians and to pretend that it is antisemitic to oppose genocide. If you don’t agree, please fuck off.

We have a special guest on to discuss episodes 1.16 “Je Suis Une Amie” and 1.17 “The New Normal”! Our conversation goes all over the place and covers water sports (lol), homophobia, the benefits of journaling, the lack of ginger representation, and power dynamics between Hanna and Caleb. Even if you try, we don’t think you can have a parasocial relationship with your actual friends. Take it sleazy, bitches!

Episode Transcript: Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpea Recipe: Smashed Chickpea Sandwich With or Without Mayo

Fashion Analysis: Our best and worst outfits!

Deepa’s Literary Analysis: Leonard Adams is not a real author, but Byron and Ezra’s discussion of his books lacks even a suggestion of depth

Things We Referenced Sort of Related to PLL

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to help Rozan and Aboud, two young people in Gaza, escape genocide with their families. You can find multiple donation options at oldcowcreative.com!

Content notes: we don’t usually warn for things that happen in PLL itself, but in this episode, our special guest talks about homophobic and transphobic bullying and assault that he faced in high school, especially playing water polo. If you want to skip that section, it’s from 00:27:30 to 00:31:35.

Deepa: Welcome back to Don't Forget the Chickpeas, your favorite Pretty Little Liars podcast! I'm Deepa.

Cameron: I'm Cameron.

Deepa: And today we have a very special guest, our very good friend Dylan! Dylan, would you like to introduce yourself?

Dylan: Hi everyone. Hi bitches! Can I say that because I'm a man? I don't know if I can.

Cameron: I think in this context we'll – I’ll allow it, as a woman of this group.

Dylan: Thank you, Cameron. I'm Dylan, I use he/him pronouns, and I'm a new PLL watcher/fan. And I've been listening to the podcast for a while, very excited to be here!

Deepa: Yay! Dylan started watching PLL because of our podcast? Which is both very good friendship, and, like, we warned you, Dylan. [laughs]

Cameron: We did.

Deepa: We warned you about all the things in the show!

Dylan: Listen –

Deepa: We did not expect this.

Dylan: I know you didn't, but it's way to feel closer to the both of you.

Cameron and Deepa: Aww.

Dylan: Also you both are so funny, and I love your takes on everything, so it always brings me a lot of joy to listen when the podcast drops, it’s a lot of fun.

Cameron: Aww, thank you!

Deepa: Dylan!

Cameron: Ooh, cheers! Sponsored by Le Creuset!

Dylan: Cameron, you bought me this mug!

Deepa: Aww, I don’t have a Le Creuset mug.

Cameron: Is yours in storage?

Deepa: [sounding dejected] Probably. Yeah, yeah, everything’s in storage.

Dylan: So you do have one.

Deepa: I couldn’t find my checkbook because it's in storage, so I had to ask my dad to write a check for me, and then, like, wire transfer him money.

Cameron: Oh, Jesus. So old-school.

Deepa: [groaning] My whole life is in storage.

Cameron: Yeah. I think, Dylan, we were gonna make you play High Low at the beginning of this episode –

Dylan: Oh man.

Cameron: – if you are prepared for that. You don't have to. But, your take – I want to hear it.

Dylan: Okay? And just to clarify this is High Low of the episodes.

Deepa: Yes. Also, the episodes that we're talking about today are episode 16, “Je Suis Un Amie”?

Cameron: Apparently.

Deepa: I don't speak French. Dylan, do you speak French?

Dylan: Nooo.

Deepa: Okay, great, so none of us know French. That's great. Okay. “Je Suis Un Amie”, and then episode 17, “The New Normal”.

Dylan: I first want to say that these – I wish I had pulled it up before we started recording. But the little bit bios for each – or summaries – for each episode are entirely useless. When I'm trying to, like, look up an episode and get reminded, ‘cause I'm kind of binging them right now. And I'm in Season 3 at this point, and there's some times where I've, like, switched between devices, or whatever – like I was at my parents’ house visiting, and then I came back home, and I was on my own Hulu account. And then it was just really funny, because I was just like, I have no idea what episode I was on. And then I try to read these little summaries, and they're just absolutely useless. And so, it's just so funny to me that that's, like, a common theme with these episodes. They're super vague and feels like they've been written by A for sure.

Cameron: [laughs] Not AI, just A.

Dylan: Not AI, just A. That’s funny.

Deepa: I'm watching it on HBO Max, and it's the same. I mean, they're not the same descriptions, I think they're different prescriptions, but equally bad.

Dylan: Okay, let me look at my – review – you all start, and then I just –

Cameron: Wowww.

Deepa: Dylan!

Cameron: You’re our guest!

Deepa: You have to start.

Dylan: Oh my god, okay.

Deepa: At least give us a high.

Cameron: Just give us a high. It doesn’t have to be the best, just what your heart wants.

Dylan: What my heart wants is – I'm really excited about Caleb and Hanna finally, like – Caleb's, like, living in the house now, and that's really exciting, sneaking around and, like, they're flirting. And that's fun because I love them. They're probably one of my favorite couples.

Deepa: I am so glad because I’m not sure we could be friends anymore if you didn’t love Caleb and Hanna. [Cameron laughs]

Dylan: “You know, I’m an Ezra/Aria stan –” No.

Cameron: Oh, we're ending it right now – the friendship, the podcast.

Dylan: Yeah, no. I fucking hate Ezra. I just want to put that up at the front to our listeners. I think he's trash. He's so boring. And…yeah, okay. And then my low, just – I really can't stand Paige. And so the –

Deepa: Really?

Dylan: – the last – episode 17 ends with the kiss between Paige and Emily, and I just hate that so much. And I remember text – because I've been – I've been texting Cameron this whole time while I'm doing this, watching for the first time, and just texting her being like, “Oh, no! Are they gonna do the bully trope of, like, they're actually just gay? And then gonna, like – it's gonna be fine, because – the abuse is fine because they're just a closeted homosexual?” And that's exactly what happened. And I remember, like, I – when there's, like, specific moments in this show, I'll scream into my pillow ‘cause I get really into it. And so, like, that was definitely one moment when I was like, “No, I'm so pissed!” Lots of all-caps text to Cameron, who's been so sweet listening to all my rants about this fricking show. Yeah. So there we go.

Deepa: Yeah!

Cameron: I, like – just beyond the trope and the bullying, like, imagine getting kissed by someone with that hairstyle. Like they just jump into your car and just kiss you? Like, oh my god. [all laugh]

Dylan: Yeah.

Deepa: It looks like such a bad kiss, like, Emily has her eyes open the whole time.

Cameron: She’s startled!

Deepa: She's clearly not enjoying it. Yeah.

Dylan: Definitely not, and the fact that the writers tried to push them as a couple later really pisses me off, because I don't see any spark. I don't see any, like – there's no onscreen chemistry between the two there. It just feels so forced. And, like, I was out pretty young in high school, and so I get that there's not many options for dating – for gay dating. I get it, and you know, you have to date people who are in the closet, or having complicated things, or nobody, and no one wants to talk to you because you're the gay one of the school, and it's – so, like, I get that there's not many options. But in this show there are options, because Emily goes and meets other people.

Deepa: Yes. Emily dates so many people in high school, like, more than the other characters in high school. In the future seasons – there's gonna be a time skip in future seasons, and then after that, I think we, like – I was counting the number of relationships, and I think after that other people catch up to her. But in high school, she is dating more different people than most of the other characters.

Cameron: She finds them.

Dylan: Yeah. And I don't know, I think it definitely does – I don't – sorry, I don't want to get into theories already, but like – I was just – this show’s so fun and terrible at the same time, but it definitely kind of feeds into that that trope of, like, your first love is kind of might mirror what your future loves are, and I'm sure that Alison gave her a lot of abuse, right? Did a lot of really fucked up shit. And so now she's like – like Maya is the one exception, who's just a sweetheart, absolutely amazing. And now she's with Paige, who is so shitty and terrible, and just absolutely a forced – like, I don't know, just like – I know straight people wrote that plot point. And then…it’s just so straight.

Deepa: It's interesting, because when the show was first airing, Paige was a fan favorite and may still be, I don't actually know. Yeah.

Dylan: What!

Deepa: People are really, really into Paige. And I don't dislike Paige, I think, as much as you are disliking her, I mostly just – I'm kind of like “eh” on her. I don't like the bullying, obviously. But Paige was a character that people really identified with. People called her a baby butch, which I just don't see…

Dylan: Oh – because she’s violent? That’s fucked up!

Cameron: Oh no!

Deepa: I don’t think so, I don’t think so! I think just because she's, like…slightly less femme than Emily? I think that's it. I think she's the least femme of the many gay women on this show, right? Because this show – I don't know how many you've seen at this point, Dylan, but this has a lot of queer women, which is –

Cameron: And they're all femme, that's true.

Deepa: And they’re all femme, so Paige is probably the least. But yeah, they're – a lot of people, a lot of queer fans really, really identified with Paige, and with Paige and Emily. So.

Dylan: Interesting.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. But it's interesting to think back on. It was such a big deal.

Dylan: I really don't like saying she's a baby butch, because…

Deepa: She’s not. She’s not.

Dylan: I'm still early in the series, so I haven't met everyone else yet, but. Yeah. So there we go, those are my high and lows, and thanks for letting me derail the convo.

Cameron: Thank you for playing.

Deepa: This entire podcast is derailing the convo, so that’s okay. [all laugh] Cameron, do you wanna go next? Or are we not all doing it?

Cameron: I'm not playing.

Deepa: Oh, we're not playing.

Cameron: I was just like, let's make Dylan play and not play ourselves, but maybe that's weird! [laughs]

Deepa: I think, actually, we can go off of some of we just we just talked about. [laughs]

Cameron: [laughing] Sorry, I wasn’t prepared to play.

Deepa: You’re never prepared for High Low, oh my god. Well, the other thing I was thinking about with Paige, as I was watching this is – I wonder if part of why people are into her is that I think Lindsey Shaw is not a bad actor at this point in the show, so I can see her just being compelling just from the fact of her emoting well, you know?

Cameron: That’s true.

Dylan: Yeah, I guess?

Deepa: But that said, Lindsey. Shaw is a racist fuck, so.

Cameron: This is true, she got cancelled on TikTok.

Dylan: Boo!

Deepa: And didn't she, like – sort of get kicked out of the show early for that too or something?

Cameron: Oh, I don't remember that. I just remember, like, a couple of years ago, so really recently, there was just, like, some trend that was started, of course, by Black teens, as most TikTok trends are, and then people do them. And she was just, like, making fun of the trend, and people were like, “That's kind of weird. Why are you doing that?” And then she just didn't be like, “Oh, yeah, that's kind of weird. I'm sorry.” She just did the racism thing of being like, “Pfft, what are you talking about?” So just, like, that thing happened in 2021, or 2020, or something. Yeah.

Dylan: Wow, okay. Thank you for that context.

Deepa: I thought there was something related to the show too. I’m going to do a quick google. But I thought you told me this, so now I’m confused.

Cameron: Oh, no. Well, Deepa still has the best memory of all of us, so.

Dylan: Yeah, my memory’s shot. I had to rewatch this like three times so I remembered what I’m talking about.

Cameron: Wow, thank you, Dylan, putting in the work.

Deepa: Oh, no, this is different. Okay. She says she was fired from the show because she was struggling with eating disorders and drug use, which is really shitty, if that's true.

Cameron: That’s super shitty.

Dylan: You know, I did look that up, because she disappears for a while in Season 1, and then I was like – okay, not that I care about what happened to Paige, but why was she written off the show for a little bit?

Deepa: She disappears multiple times, actually, she’s going to disappear again, so I don't even know when this is.

Cameron: That's really shitty.

Dylan: Is it A’s fault? Is it the writers’ fault? Is there something personal going on? We never know, and that's what keeps the show fun and interesting. [all laugh]

Cameron: Eating disorders!

Dylan: No, that’s not what I meant!

Cameron: Sorry, I know. [laughs] God, I just, like, am reading, or listening to – Deepa knows this – the Jennette McCurdy memoir I'm Glad My Mom Died, and it's just like – the child actor thing, right? Like, I know a lot of these actors in PLL are like twenty, or like – you know, Sasha Pieterse is not – but they're still very young and very, like – the industry just grinds people up, right, and you have to preserve your youth in ways that are, like, really bad for your health and your body. And just, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. Actually, I was looking up Sasha Pieters recently for a totally different reason, just to kind of remind – check that my memory of her age is correct. And it is; she was thirteen when the film started showing – started airing – no. Ugh, words –

Cameron: You’re great, you’re great.

Deepa: – when the show started filming, she was thirteen. But I was reading too, that recently –

Dylan: That makes sense. She's so little. She looks really young.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. But she's so good! [laughs] But she also struggled – so she has PCOS and didn't get diagnosed until she was on the show and really struggling with it, and was not able to, you know – multiple years of doctors not having any idea what's going on, blah blah blah, because no one knows anything about PCOS –

Cameron: That’s true.

Deepa: – but that was something she really struggled with on the show, especially around – and, like, being on this show that has this incredible fatphobia, and she had PCOS that affected her weight. So, yeah, just really hard to read about.

Dylan: She still looks great. Also to say that – she's thirteen, she's so little, like – that's just weird, why would they – why couldn't they –

Deepa: I think it happens in later seasons. I think it was when she was like seventeen or eighteen that she started having health problems that later turned out to be PCOS, but. The other thing that made me think of, though, is, you know, I obviously don't know if Sasha Pieterse identifies as intersex with PCOS but, like, super shitty to have, you know, all the intersexist stuff, and. Ughhhhh.

Dylan: Yeah. That was a jarring moment, when I was watching. It's like – I know that y'all warned me, but I think y'all were trying to warn me in a way that wasn't spoilers, you know. And so, yeah, I was just like, uh, what?

Deepa: Well, there are some things we probably should warn you about at some point that are spoilers.

Dylan: I know about the transphobia.

Deepa: Okay. Okay.

Dylan: I don't know who it is, though. But that's fine.

Deepa: Well. We can talk about that offline.

Cameron: Yeah, we don’t – [laughs]

Dylan: But yeah, let's crack into it.

Deepa: Yes. Yes. The other – so Paige is making me think of the swim meet, which –

Cameron: Amazing.

Deepa: – doesn’t focus on Paige, thankfully. But I love that so much, that, first of all, Caleb's like, “I want a date,” when he means, like, a business date. [laughs] But. Does he mean a business date only? I don't know. I don't know.

Cameron: It’s a way in! [laughs]

Deepa: Yeah. I love the swim meet, I love – well, okay, actually, one thing that I always forget about, because I'm so excited to see Caleb show up, is how racist everyone else other than Hanna is about him. It's really shitty, and I think I just gloss over it in my mind because I'm excited that he's there. But. Aaaah!

Cameron: Even, like, well, making Spencer say, “He's dark,” like, “dark enough”, is very…[makes a skeptical noise] And everyone's like, “He's sketchy,” but, like, the “dark” thing, I was like, okay, guys.

Deepa: The “dark” thing! It’s so fucked up!

Dylan: I, yeah, I literally – okay. So, to listeners – Cameron knows this – maybe, Deepa, you don’t – but I take edibles, and then I watch these shows. So a lot of my notes are very ridiculous, like I wrote “Sausage Heaven lololol, sounds like a terrible place to order from”.

Deepa: [laughs] That was pretty funny though.

Cameron: I wanted to go to Sausage Heaven! I was like, that sounds great.

Dylan: Wow.

Deepa: Especially if Mike loves Sausage Heaven –

Cameron: If Mike loves Sausage Heaven, I want to try it.

Dylan: I hope he’s gay later, you know. Okay, but, going back to Caleb, it’s really – I was rewatching it, and I was just like, it's really sad that children are homeless and experience homelessness, and that anyone experiences homelessness.

Deepa: Yeah!

Dylan: But it just like – it just makes me sad, and, like, the fact that he's seen as dark and scary and sketchy is because he's literally trying to do, like, what he can to survive, and he's homeless. Like. He's homeless, you know, and that's sad. And then I was really high last night, and I wanted to get y'all's opinion – this might be controversial – but is there an inherent power dynamic between Caleb and Hanna because of the housing situation?

Cameron: Yeah.

Dylan: And like, I know a lot of youth sometimes feel like they have to engage in, like, survival sex, right, to have housing, or that type of stuff. I know that we – I love these this couple so much. But I'm also just thinking about that dynamic and how uncomfortable it is, you know.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a totally fair, like, critique to have, and way to think about it. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if not the – if not the romance and sex part, then other pieces of their relationship right now, right? He feels like he has to be helpful and stuff, you know, which came up in this episode with the architect plotline, the fake architect. But yeah, I think he feels like he has to, you know, make up for the fact that he's sleeping in their basement and whether – you know, whatever way that plays out.

Cameron: Yeah. And I guess – like the reason that that situation, or that power dynamic, doesn't seem as like legible is because they’re switched, like the genders are switched, right? Like we think of young women having to engage in survival sex work, or having to, like, do sex to have housing, you know, things like that. And I don't think we think about anyone else having to do that. So, like, yeah.

Deepa: Totally. And I think the racism piece plays in here, too, because – Dylan, I don't know if you know this, but Tyler Blackburn who plays Caleb is mixed race Cherokee, Comanche, and white. And, like, first of all, the show doesn't really ever engage with his Indigeneity; at some point we see some of his bio relatives, and I don't think they're played by Indigenous actors. But, like, Indigenous homelessness in the U.S. is so, so rampant and such a huge problem, and they don't really ever engage with that. There are other roles he's played, in other TV shows, where he is playing a Native character, but it's hard to tell whether PLL actually acknowledges that or not. But they do manage to fulfill some pretty racist tropes based on it!

Dylan: Yeah, no, I – you know, I didn't look up his race, and I felt like – something I felt was, like, I should probably do this, but then I was high, and then I was just writing the notes, and also laughing over Sausage Whatever. But yeah, no, I think that's really important to bring up and talk about. And then also, like, the actor is queer, right?

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: Yup.

Dylan: And queer youth, especially BIPOC queer youth, experience disproportionately high rates of homelessness, and that made me sad watching it. To listeners, I have a public health background, and so I work a lot with youth and queer youth, and I – yeah. It's just sad. It just made me sad. And I'm like, Oh, it's hard to enjoy these shows and consume these shows with all that just looming in the background. And. But anyway. I don't know. Just wanted to talk about that.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. I think that's something we haven't, like – Deepa and I haven't discussed before, just the power dynamic inherent in that.

Deepa: Yeah. And yeah, just the way people react to him without knowing anything about him other than how he presents visibly. Like he shows up at Hanna and Ashley's door, he's incredibly polite, and you know, friendly, and Ashley's immediately – I mean, you know, to some extent, I imagine Ashley is this way about Hanna seeing boys in the house at all, because she was weird about – she was a little skeptical about Lucas, too. But not in the same way, not in the way where Lucas was framed as a threat. She was more just like, “Who is this guy? That's weird.”

Dylan: After she stole money! Like she's doing what she needs to do to survive, and taking money in, ways and, like, Caleb is too? And is not stealing money, he's doing a job, you know. Like not that it matters – like, fuck, whatever people need to survive. I'm not judging Ashley here, but I'm just saying, like, after all of that, then she's just like, “Uh, I don't know, is this the weird rebound after your virgin boyfriend? He called you ‘Hanna Banana’!”

Deepa: “He called you ‘Hanna Banana’!”

Dylan: Oh, that's why I'm wearing this shirt. [Deepa cracks up]

Cameron: That’s why you’re wearing that shirt? Thank you. 

Deepa: As a “fuck you” to Sean?

Dylan: Yeah.

Cameron: I mean, I guess it's also the explicit, like, “outsider to Rosewood” thing, where people, like, know everybody, know everybody's business, and no one knows anything about Caleb. So it's also, like, what's going on. Like not saying that's that – I think that's just added to the racism, and they're just, like, heightened.

Deepa: But that's the thing – so far, we have had two characters who are new to Rosewood in this show, both of whom are love interests, which are Maya and Caleb, and both are incredibly racialized in the way they’re presented. They're both not just outsiders, but they both are also interrupting the – what I keep calling, like, the Suburban Middle-Class Façade of PLL, because they're, you know, they're different in various ways, and they don't conform to that – in ways that I really appreciate, but also that are very racialized.

Dylan: Yeah. Poor Maya? Like – what the?

Cameron: Ugh.

Deepa: Yeah.

Dylan: Jesus. I’m so upset at that racism.

Deepa: It’s so bad.

Dylan: She just fucking smoked weed.

Cameron: She smoked weed.

Deepa: I know.

Dylan: And, like, I graduated high school in 2010, and so it also is interesting, like – thinking about my perspective of what's going on in terms of where I was at emotionally, and young, and that type of stuff and like. But, like, weed wasn't even that big of a fucking deal back then, and so I don't know why they needed to include that in the plot point other than the fact that she's a Black actress, and that feels so fucking racist. And so it feels – it is! It is.

Cameron: Yeah.

Dylan: Ugh. Sorry to immediately dive into all, like, the shitty stuff.

Deepa: That’s like half the podcast, don’t worry!

Cameron: That’s the podcast: complaining. [laughs]

Dylan: Oh, I also just wanted to say congratulations to Cameron, you get sports in in these episodes.

Cameron: Yes, I have a couple of sports thoughts.

Deepa: Give us your sports thoughts!

Cameron: I just have always been kind of envious of the warm-up things that swimmers get? They just look so cool, I don't know. I just think, like – the giant – [laughs] I don't know, I always – so I'm glad we get to see that. And the POV we get of Emily swimming hard is fun, and the way she makes up – like, the red team is so far ahead of her, so she just must be speedy as fuck. Which we know, but like. It's just fun to see that in action.

Deepa: They make swimming look really dynamic in a way that – obviously, it is, but we don't always get shown, you know, when people are swimming. So they manage to do that, because I think swimming is hard to film.

Cameron: They look cool! And my last sports thought for this episode is that I do think being gay gives you an advantage in sports. So, like, I don’t know. [all laugh]

Dylan: Incredible.

Deepa: So Nick McCullers was right! [laughs]

Cameron: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. [laughs]

Dylan: He was so annoying.

Deepa: Being gay does give you an advantage in sports. Yeah. Yeah, do you have any knowledge about the gayness of swimming?

Cameron: I don't, because it's considered less gay than, like, a lot of other sports, because it's put in this category – like, it's this – you wear very revealing, like, feminizing outfits, like women swimming? Even though Emily's suit was gayer than Paige’s, I will say. [all laugh]

Dylan: I have feelings and thoughts about this.

Cameron: And, like, I'm just basing this on one book I've read, that it’s just placed in a different category than, like, the basketball or the – and maybe that's just like a team sport thing.

Deepa: I was gonna ask that, yeah. Is that – is that because it's a sport that both, not all of the races are team sports, but also because you're not in contact – I mean, not that basketball is a contact sport in the way that we mean contact sports –

Cameron: It kind of is…

Deepa: – but you are interacting with other people –

Cameron: – touching other people, sort of.

Deepa: Yeah, exactly.

Cameron: I wish I would have brushed up on my swimming specifically from this book, but.

Deepa: You have time. You have time. There's a lot of swimming coming up. We do have a lot of – we are going to have multiple gay swimmers eventually, I'm pretty sure, so. You have time.

Cameron: But, like, the stereotype, right, is that all women who do sports are gay, right?

Dylan: One hundred percent, as it should be. So I was on swim team, and gay and out.

Deepa: Ooh! Ooh!

Dylan: And I also did water polo in high school.

Deepa: I did not know this! Amazing!

Dylan: Yeah. Believe it or not, I did sports. [Deepa cracks up] And, like, I was out, and there was a lot of, like – for listeners, feel free to skip forward a few if you don't want to hear about, like, bullying and assault, honestly, but water polo is bonkers.

*scroll down to Cameron saying “Okay, yeah, that makes sense” if you want to skip this part*

Dylan: The way that women – like, girls’ water polo is done is extremely violent, and often, like, sexual. Like they'll get up into the swimsuits and drag you under –

Deepa: What?

Dylan: – by hooking right where the crotch is, and, like, pull your suit down, or sometimes even insert fingers up in –

Deepa: Oh my god!

Dylan: – yeah, and scratching the legs, and, like, blood going down the leg as a form of distraction to, like, get you to not be able pay attention.

Deepa: What the fuck? I had no idea!

Dylan: That's why I didn't want to go into the games. I would always ask coach to not put me in the games –

Cameron: Yeah!

Deepa: Shit!

Dylan: – because that's terrifying! And, like, girls would walk out with just blood going down their legs.

Deepa: Oh my god.

Dylan: It's pretty gnarly, and my sister played water competitively for years. And, like, I was out pretty young, and bullied a lot, mainly by boys in my school, but there definitely was, like, lots of whispers in like the locker room. I felt like I had to change in a different place than all the other girls and – and for listeners, I'm trans, if you haven't picked that up yet. But, yeah, so I would be interested in knowing if there's anything written about, like, water polo specifically, but a lot of the same people who played water polo did swim team, right?

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: Right.

Dylan: But, like, the first girl I dated was on the water – was on a different school's water polo team, and like – so there's some little forbidden romance there for y'all. But yeah, I don't know it. It is really interesting how that type of violence is perpetuating that.

Deepa: I had no idea.

Dylan: But y'all, feel free to cut this out of – yeah. Feel free to cut this out of it. But it's very – it's very weird. But. Yeah.

Deepa: No, if you're comfortable with it being on the podcast –

Dylan: Yeah, I’m totally fine.

Deepa: No, that – I had no fucking clue that water polo was like that, that’s so awful, I’m so sorry.

Dylan: Yeah, like, grabbing chests –

Deepa: Oof!

Dylan: It’s pretty gnarly. And, like, my sister experienced a lot more than I did, but she was goalie for most of the time, so she didn't get a lot of, like, that physical touch. But in water polo, it's definitely there. It's much more violent and aggressive than, like, you see on the field, or on the court, you know, because it's all under water. What the ref can't see goes, is the rule. So I never wanted to go in.

Deepa: Ugh. That’s horrible!

Cameron: Jesus Christ. I –

Dylan: Not to mention, the straight girls could do that, right? If I would have done it, then it would been a whole other fucking – not that I ever would have, because that's bonkers and totally scary, but, like, you know. Anyway, that's a fun little thought.

Cameron: Thank you for sharing. I don't know anything about water polo, but there is a lot written about locker rooms, of course, as being, like, very fraught spaces for people that are queer, trans, fat, just any sort of marginalization. And just that group-changing, body setting is just, like, an incredibly terrible experience for so many people, for sure. Yeah.

Dylan: For sure.

Deepa: Water polo. What the fuck.

Dylan: Yeah, it's crazy. And, like, the boys are not that way. They're just aggressive with how hard they throw the ball with each other, and, like, rough, but they're not – I don't think that they're doing any of the other stuff. My sister says that they don't necessarily do that, but – I don't know, it's just like – she also coached people, and she also did a bunch of stuff, and just, like, very interesting…

Deepa: Fucking wild. Wow.

Dylan: It’s not every game, but it, like, definitely happens for sure. Yeah. I hated it.

Cameron: Okay, yeah, that makes sense. [laughs] Should we talk about Nick McCullers and that fucking situation, that dynamic?

Deepa: Well, I literally have in my notes “the dreaded cafeteria scene” in all caps. [laughs] Because I just hate everyone involved?

Cameron: Yeah. The Ezra heroism is disgusting.

Deepa: I think – I think I was – I was thinking about this, and in that scene, I think I still hate Ezra more than Nick McCullers, because Nick McCullers – we don't see him much more in the show, but from Paige's perspective, he gets less homophobic, like, her parents at some point get okay with her being gay – and Ezra just never stops being an abuser! [all laugh]

Cameron: Never stops.

Deepa: Obviously this is a lose-lose comparison, they both fucking suck, but, like, Ezra being the hero out of that – ugh.

Cameron: Gross! Also the Pam reaction to it pisses me the fuck off.

Dylan: So fake! She fake.

Cameron: “Why wouldn't you tell me?” Are you serious?

Dylan: Yeah.

Deepa: I don’t see it as fake. I see it as this – I see it as a very realistic parental reaction of, “Oh, now that my kid is hurt, I understand.” And again – I think Cameron and I talked about it this in a previous episode, I don't remember if it's one that's aired yet – but the way that Pam changes is very much centered on this idea of homophobia, that doesn't take into account the racism that she had towards Maya. Right? She gets better in terms of accepting Emily being gay, but she doesn't ever take responsibility for what she set in motion with Maya.

Dylan: Right.

Deepa: So this is – this is the beginning of Pam being like, “Oh, my kid!” Like, “Oh, no! I just realized I love her. I need to shape up to be better for her,” and that's only because of – it's only because Emily's her kid, but also because of this externalized, like – what Nick McCullers did is incredibly visible. It is a violation of this, like, social code that they have in Rosewood. And it's humiliating, and that is – those are the things that pushed Pam more than the actual impact to her child, of which she has had – like, she has harmed Emily a million times more than Nick McCullers has. Right?

Dylan: Yeah.

Cameron: I wrote in my notes, “Nobody hurts my child – except for me!”

Dylan: Literally though! Though I think it's also this weird phenomenon where, like – okay. So Pam is straight up, just homophobic, right? She is conservative. We know she's conservative, and she is, like, anti-gay across the board. Right? And so – but there is a trend with liberal parents where they will assert, like – straight, liberal parents will assert their homophobia in specific ways by saying, “I'm worried about your safety,” right?

Deepa: Yup. Yup.

Dylan: So, like, the “safety” is used as a as a bookmark for their homophobia, right, like, “Oh, you can't be trans ‘cause you might get hurt,” or, “You can't be –” like – “Oh, I'm just worried. I just want to protect you.” And I think that that is a good example of that in this, you know – where she had not considered the violence that would be perpetuated because she was so focused on her homophobia. And now that this is violence, you know – I mean, there has been violence, she’s been staring the violence, perpetuating it – but now that it’s someone else, like, it’s this whole new thing.

Deepa: Mhm. Well, and she won’t even what she did to Maya as violence, because of her carceral perspective, she will see what she did to Maya as the opposite – of Maya being “unsafe”, towards other people and to herself – and, you know, this Christian camp she gets sent to as being the correction for that, and the protection.

Dylan: And that’s why I blame Pam for Maya’s death.

Deepa: Definitely!

Cameron: Absolutely. We have not released – I don’t think – that episode yet, but we go into – there’s a – yeah. Ooh!

Dylan: She was trying to run away because of this fucking system, and – what happens.

Cameron: And she put her in a fucking place to, like, be vulnerable, to meet her fucking stalker and killer.

Dylan: Yup. One hundred percent.

Cameron: So fuck you, Pam.

Deepa: Fuck you, Pam.

Dylan: Fuck you, Pam.

Cameron: I – when you were saying, like, “I'm just worried about your safety,” I think it also, like, made me think about when parents are like, “Oh, I'm just –” like – “I want you to be happy.” And they have this idea that, like, you being gay or being queer or  trans, means you – there's no happiness for you, or they can't imagine happiness, like, it's just – it's inherently suffering. It's inherently trauma. And there's no other vision for that.

Dylan: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. For fucking sure. Well, since we're on the topic of Pam, do we want to talk about parents?

Cameron: I guess.

Dylan: Yeah.

Deepa: Dylan, you go first. [laughs]

Dylan: Oh, shit. Hold on.

Cameron: I love this! Making our guests do things.

Deepa: I know! Just make Dylan do everything first.

Dylan: Oh! I wrote – this is a note I wrote, sorry to go back to Paige’s dad – I said, oh my god. Paige's dad is the worst dad ‘cause he is embarrassing. “Politically correct double-talk?” I see where Paige gets her abusive tendencies from.

Cameron: Oop! [Deepa laughs]

Dylan: So. Sorry.

Cameron: Thank you. Thank you.

Dylan: Okay, also, the smashing of the mailbox in broad daylight was so funny to me. I know we wanna talk about parents, but it, one: gave me a jump scare, ‘cause I was high and like, la la la la la, and then, pow! And then I was like, whoa! And then they get a new mailbox real fast time. Oh, and also, lots of notes about why Aria doesn't trust her dad, and that that makes a lot of sense, because he sucks. Yeah. I don’t know, you all can tune in, or like –

Cameron: Wowwww. Wow. You’re so bad at this! [laughs]

Dylan: I’m trying to find my notes on worst parent! I know I wrote it down.

Deepa: [laughs] I guess – well, I had a conundrum. I had a really hard time choosing between Pam and Byron, because I know I know Pam is a fuck, but Byron is so horrible, I just had him so much. Ugh. Ughhh.

Cameron: The like – there's so many – I just – we get more screen time with Byron, like, he has so many more opportunities to do just weird shit that I had to give it to him, I guess?

Deepa: That’s pretty much where I was too.

Cameron: He's, like, not only just ditching his children to go fake secret-date his ex-wife – or still-wife? He's also just being so weird to – I guess we're just taking this at itself – his daughter's teacher, ‘cause he thinks he's maybe dating his wife? I’m just, like, what? In this weird power dynamic, and, like…

Deepa: Even if that were true, it’s fucked up! Ugh.

Cameron: Yeah, like what are you doing? [laughs] I did like his insults to Ezra, though. Or about Ezra, to Aria. I appreciated that.

Deepa: That was the thing, I couldn't take the same pleasure in it as I could with Noel Kahn and Ezra, because I hate Byron so much right. I was, like, I want to! I want to be enjoying Ezra getting taken down right now, but it's not…I also have, like, the briefest of literary analysis, which is not even –

Cameron: I was like, does Deepa have thoughts about this author?

Deepa: I – so – oh !

Cameron: Leonard Adams.

Deepa: Well – I don't think at letter Adams is a real person.

Cameron: Damn it!

Deepa: I – you know what, I didn't actually look this up beforehand, let me make the sure...yeah. Leonard Adams isn't real as an author, which I think makes sense, because they, like, are insulting about him sometimes, so! My only literary analysis of that scene, though, is: their conversation is devoid of any details about literature. Like they basically – basically, Byron goes, “Do like this author?” And Ezra goes, “Yeah, some of his stuff is good.” And Byron's like, “I think his stuff is bad.” And Ezra’s like, “Well, some people say that.” It's just – when – [laughs]

Dylan: Yeah.

Deepa: When we were talking about – Cameron and I talked in an earlier episode about how the PLL writers are most likely not geeks, so I can kind of understand why they don't give Lucas good geek dialogue, other than stuff that is very obvious and mainstream. But the PLL writers are presumably writers! So why would they not have any critiques of actual writing? Like they could even just say, like, “He uses too many cliches,” or, “He's too sentimental,” and they don't – they just keep going back and forth on, like, “He's bad.” “He's good.” “He's bad.”

Dylan: Yeah. Okay, so I – in my notes, I – I hate Byron, I hate him so much. I just want to preface that. But I did – I was really into how – I know you just said that that you didn't care how much he hated on Ezra, but I gave him best parent just because of the –

Deepa: [gasps] You gave him best parent?

Cameron: Best parent!

Dylan: Everyone sucked –

Deepa: Best parent?

Cameron and Deepa: Wowwwwwww.

Dylan: I mean, he's not the best parent, he fucking sucks. Obviously Hanna – Ashley is Hanna's mom, right? – Ashley is always the best. I love her so much. She kills cops, or at least tries to, you know – [Cameron cracks up] She steals money, you know – I am really, I, you know –

Deepa: She kills cops!

Dylan: – trying to, you know, like – I'm pretty far into it at this point, but I love her the most. She's the best. But I do want to say that, like, it was really nice to hear someone talking shit about Ezra at some point in the show, and I liked that, even if it was weird and territorial. Like, “Oh, I think you're fucking my wife,” when, oh, he’s fucking your daughter!

Cameron: Ewwwww.

Dylan: It's like, “You're going out with my wife.” No, dude! This is a note I wrote: no, dude. He's fucking your daughter and taking your wife out. [all laugh]

Cameron: It’s fucking both!

Deepa: Also, can I just note, though, that while Byron doesn't know about Ezra and Aria, he does know that there was a rumor about Ezra fucking a student.

Cameron: Mhm.

Dylan: Yes.

Deepa: Which I had kind of forgotten until, you know, until recently that he hears that rumor.

Dylan: He thought it was Spencer.

Deepa: Yeah, later people think it's Spencer, which is, meh. But. Yeah. So Byron knows that, and Byron's reaction to that was like, “Accusations like that can ruin people's lives!”

Cameron: Jesus Christ, Byron.

Dylan: Yeah, he’s trash. But, like, everyone – all the parents are trash in these episodes.

Deepa: Ashley was also not good, yeah.

Dylan: Ashley was being fucking, like, weird about Caleb.

Deepa: And racist, yeah. I gave it to Ella, because Ella, I thought, was the least bad.

Cameron: I did as well, ‘cause I was just like – she isn't, like, offending me right now. [laughs]

Deepa: It’s too bad that she’s befriending Ezra, but again, she doesn't know, right? She – and like – I don't know – I just don't think it's her fault that she's befriending Ezra. He's – I mean, he's charming! Abusers can be very charming!

Cameron: He's a lightweight, Deepa. [Cameron and Deepa laugh]

Dylan: I really like Ella's character. I think the actress does a really good job at playing, like, I don't know – I just think she does a good job. She's very comforting, like, she's very mom-ish. I don't know how else to explain it, but she also, like – when Byron is talking about all the reasons why – and his jealousy’s coming up – means she hates that author, yadda yadda yadda. “She threw his novel across the room”? I'm like – that doesn't sound like Ella at all. She is so chill, like, even when he's cheating on her and she finds out, she's really fucking chill. Like how bad could this book have to be if Ella is – Ella Ella Ella! – is throwing a book across the room, ‘cause she's so upset of how bad this book is?

Deepa: That is really funny.

Dylan: And so – I like – that just feels so out of character for me, and that doesn't make any sense, like, she's just so mild and chill.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: I think he just wanted to say “our bedroom”. [Deepa cackles] Like I think he didn't – like, he was just like, “In our bedroom.” [all laugh]

Dylan: That’s so funny.

Cameron: I’m just like, okay, Byron.

Deepa: Can I note how quickly – how bad Byron is at flirting with his own wife as well? In that first episode where he's talking to her on the phone and Aria hears him, and he's like, “I can find you in the dark. I've done it before.” Ew! What?

Cameron: What is that – like – okay?

Dylan: I don't remember that.

Deepa: Number one, I guess you only have sex in the dark, which, sure, checks out. [laughs]

Dylan: Why? She’s so hot!

Deepa: I know! But checks out for Byron being ridiculous. But also, ew!

Dylan: She must be so short.

Cameron: She's so short. Like she's shorter than Aria. I – it's shocking. [laughs]

Dylan: Yeah, I don't know who I gave worst parent. All of them? Thank you.

Deepa: Who did you – so, wait, you gave Byron best parent, but you didn’t give a worst? Okay.

Dylan: I’m gonna give Ezra the worst parent every episode. [Deepa cracks up]

Cameron: Ewwwwww!

Deepa: Ugh!

Dylan: I just got to that point in the show.

Cameron: LOL.

Deepa: Geez. Oof. Oof.

Cameron: Okay. Speaking of parents, or parents-to-be…Melissa's pregnant! [Cameron and Deepa crack up]

Dylan: Oh my god, I forgot!

Cameron: She’s always maybe pregnant, or –

Deepa: – or maybe recently had an abortion, yeah.

Dylan: I just – yeah. I texted Cameron a lot about this. The thing I wanted to bring up about this – context is – it's really weird. There’s that, like, parasocial relationship when it comes to listening to podcasts, and it's definitely weird listening to the podcast and then being able to text you both to be like, “Oh, good point! Oh!” You know, like – [Cameron and Deepa crack up]

Deepa: Are you saying we have a parasocial relationship, Dylan?? We’re, like, real-life friends!

Dylan: I'm just saying it's weird moving from that context of when I usually listen to podcasts, to an actual relationship and friendship, where I can just be like, “Oh, yeah, you totally said this thing on the podcast, and I liked it.” And I'm just like – I don't know how annoying that is to y'all. But it's just really funny. It's a weird concept for me. [Deepa and Cameron still laughing]

Cameron: I love getting your texts!

Dylan: Thank you!

Cameron: I –

Deepa: [still laughing] Oh my god, that’s amazing.

Dylan: I, like, can’t text any of the other podcasts I listen to, to be like, “Oh, haha, funny joke!”

Deepa: Dylan’s parasocial relationship with podcast hosts Cameron and Deepa! [Dylan and Cameron crack up]

Cameron: Wow. [clears her throat]

Dylan: Yeah. I don’t know –

Cameron: That’s killing me.

Dylan: – the point I was trying to make.

Cameron: Something about pregnancy.

Dylan: Oh, yeah, I was texting Cameron so much about the pregnancy. Like – to listeners, I’m a doula, so I help a lot of people through their pregnancies and childbirth and etc., and it's just like – and abortions as well, and miscarriages – and so the whole, like – it was – that's when I realized the timeline of this show? I was trying to map out her pregnancy, because I was like –

Cameron and Deepa: Mmm.

Dylan: – and then I reached out to Cameron, I was like, “What is the fucking timeline?” And Cameron's like, “I don't know.” None of it makes any sense. They're at school, they're not at school. They, like – it's all in one day, but they have multiple outfits. And it's just so confusing. And I was just like, “Oh, okay.” And so, like, for the first few seasons I was only gauging time passing by her pregnancy.

Deepa: That makes sense, yeah. That's actually a much better potential read – because, also, the weather never changes in Rosewood, even though it's in Pennsylvania. Like they have winter, but it never snows, ‘cause presumably they're filming in, like, LA, or whatever, so – [laughs]

Dylan: Yeah. They’re filming in LA. And, like, that's another thing that I wrote a lot about in my very high state, of like, it’s so annoying to me that they have – one, they have a coffee shop on campus. Like that is such a fake TV thing of like – did y’all’s – I wanted to ask y’all, did y’all’s –

Deepa: I think rich kid schools have those, yeah.

Dylan: Really?

Deepa: I think so?

Dylan: Have coffee stands?

Deepa: Have a coffee cart? I don't know. I don't know. Mine didn't, even though it was definitely a rich kid school. But –

Dylan: Cameron?

Cameron: Nope.

Deepa: I just don't find the idea surprising, somehow.

Dylan: But it's outdoors, which is not a thing. That's only, like, a California thing. And so, like, I grew up in California, so I know that all of everything is outdoors, like, our cafeterias are semi-indoors, but mainly outdoors. You walk between classes outdoors. There's not a lot of, like, indoor space to walk between classes. Like you're going to get wet if it's raining, right? And so, like, you can tell that this was filmed in California, because the – as most things are – but like, because of how much time they spend outdoors. And also, yeah, the weather never changes.

Deepa: Yeah. Well, it could be filmed in Vancouver, because a lot of things are filmed in Vancouver, but I don’t think it is because it’s not raining enough.

Dylan: I looked it up. I looked it up.

Cameron: Not raining.

Dylan: I looked it up and it’s not. All Cali. Cali, baby. [Deepa laughs] ‘cause they use a lot of the same sets as Gilmore Girls and other –

Deepa: Oh, okay.

Cameron: That’s what I was thinking about – it’s probably the same coffee cart. [all laugh]

Dylan: The whole town! The whole town is just Gilmore Girls land.

Deepa: It’s a similar kind of context? I mean, Pennsylvania’s not New England, but it’s, you know, still sort of similar. What were we talking about before coffee shops?

Cameron: We were talking about pregnancy –

Deepa: Oh, pregnancy!

Cameron: – and California, yeah.

Deepa: [laughing] Pregnancy and California!

Cameron: Yeah. Nope, I got us.

Deepa: Pregnancy does give me a tangent that Cameron is gonna roll her eyes at. But it's about Hilton Head. So for the past year and a half – well, it's not even really about Hilton Head. What are you laughing at?

Cameron: I just love Hilton Head, I think it's always so funny!

Deepa: Hilton Head is very funny.

Dylan: What is Hilton Head?

Cameron and Deepa: It’s where –

Cameron: You go.

Deepa: Hilton Head is a golf course slash place in South Carolina, which is where Spencer realizes that Ali has been, and Ian was also at, at one point. And then, I think, is also – we think is also where Melissa went to get an abortion at some point?

Cameron: Yeah! [laughs]

Deepa: So that's why it's funny, especially ‘cause it’s in South Carolina.

Deepa: So my tangent is that for the past, like, year and a half, I've been really obsessed with this Thai drama that in Thai is called แค่เพื่อนครับเพื่อน | Khae Phuean, Khrap Phuean, or in English is called Bad Buddy. Dylan, you have to watch it at some point.

Dylan: I know! I know.

Deepa: But one of the characters is known for wearing t-shirts that have, like, very random things written in English on them, like, in one of the very climactic emotional scenes, he's just wearing a shirt that says “baseball mom” on it. Which I love, it's a great t-shirt. But one of his t-shirts is from Hilton Head! And I just find it so funny every time I see it.

Dylan: Crossover!

Deepa: I think I texted you the first time I watched it, Cameron, and told you about this, but then never again, because I didn't want to bug you with Bad Buddy stuff. [laughs] But a Hilton Head t-shirt! It's amazing.

Cameron: Ah!

Deepa: And my other connection to PLL is that one of – the other main character is an architecture student, and he is very into his pens. So every time we get to the pen part of this episode –

Dylan: Yeah!

Deepa: – laugh so much, especially because I'm pretty sure these days architects do most of their work digitally, so I don't even think it's true? But…ah? But, you know, Caleb is very smart. Caleb –

Cameron: Yeah, are you calling him a liar?

Deepa: No, no, he's convinced me. I will believe literally anything –

Dylan: He’s a pretty little liar. [Deepa cracks up]

Cameron: He is a pretty little liar! He’s so cute.

Dylan: I literally wrote “Caleb is such a dream” in my notes.

Deepa: I will believe anything he says.

Cameron: I wrote “Hanna ❤️ Caleb ❤️ Cameron”, I wrote a little – those were my notes about some of their scenes. I was like, yeah, I love them. [Deepa cackles]

Deepa: Well, you also are Hanna in the MBTI sorting! Dylan, I'll have to pull this up, but back in 2014 or whenever Cameron and I were first watching this, the now TERF-site did a, like, Myers Briggs sorting of all the characters, and ENFJ was Cameron and Hanna, so.

Dylan: Ohhh!

Deepa: You got the best one. I was Ella, which is funny.

Dylan: I can see it.

Cameron: I mean, Ella is great, just not a lot of…time? I don’t know.

Deepa: Yeah, it’s a funny one. It was better than Tippi the bird –

Cameron: The bird!

Deepa: – which was one of the options!

Cameron: Someone’s a bird! [laughs]

Deepa: Dylan, have you gotten to Tippi the bird?

Dylan: No.

Deepa: Okay, well we –

Cameron: We won’t go –

Deepa: There’s a bird! Named Tippi! Very exciting. [laughs]

Dylan: Talking about Caleb – also, I just wanna bring up the fact that Mona sent the pest control to the house and said, “There’s an infestation in your basement.” Completely unhinged! [Cameron and Deepa laugh]

Cameron: Jelly!

Deepa: Definitely!

Dylan: It’s really bonkers.

Deepa: Why isn’t Mona around? She needs to be more around while she's doing all this all this shit. I don't know where she is. It’s very sad.

Cameron: Yeah, last time we knew that she was busy because she was killing Mrs. Potter. What is she doing this episode?

Deepa: Which I think we have proof of, because I forgot that she puts flowers on Mrs. Potter’s grave at the end! Of course she killed her!

Dylan: Okay, I have a note about that. I just was like – I didn’t know she killed her, I just was like –

Deepa: We don’t know.

Cameron: We don’t know, we just decided.

Dylan: Mona's just like everywhere, and was like, “Oh, I need to drop off these flowers,” because she's in a constant state of whatever hyperreality. But –

Deepa: I think it’s “adrenalized hyperreality”. Adrenalized is the other part of that, that I remembered recently.

Cameron: That’s important.

Dylan: She doesn’t sleep! She doesn’t sleep.

Deepa: Yeah.

Dylan: But on Mrs. Potter's grave, there's a Hamlet quote, and I wanted to know, Deepa, if you've done a literary analysis. It says, “To sleep, perchance to dream.”

Cameron: It does say that.

Dylan: A Hamlet quote. I looked it up. Not that I knew – I did not know it off the top of my head, I’ll say that much.

Cameron: I've stopped doing anything about literary stuff in these any of these episodes. I'm like, that's Deepa’s!

Deepa: I just didn’t even notice that!

Dylan: It's specifically in context of, like – Hamlet says that when he thinks he's alone, but he's not alone.

Deepa: Mmm, that’s a good point! That’s a good point.

Dylan: Maybe I did a literary analysis.

Deepa: You did the literary analysis!

Cameron: Oooh!

Deepa: Yeah, I don't –I didn't – I didn't prepare anything on that, I'm sorry. My only other literary analysis was around Toby –

Cameron: The Catcher in the Rye!

Deepa: The Catcher in the Rye in French!

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: So I got curious, because, you know, part of Catcher in the Rye is that Holden Caulfield calls a lot of people “phonies”, right? So I looked up “phony” in French. It's “poseur”.

Cameron: “Poseur!” [cracks up]

Dylan: Poser!

Deepa: Yes, but it’s French! [also cracking up] I’m imagining trying to read Catcher in the Rye and he’s calling everyone “poseur”.

Cameron: Jesus Christ.

Dylan: Literally. God, that book.

Deepa: That’s all I have, sorry.

Cameron: Why does Toby have to learn French? Is it just a plot point? I don’t understand.

Deepa: You have to do language.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: You have to do some language. I guess he chose French.

Cameron: Mmkay.

Deepa: No one take – I don't think anyone takes Spanish in this school. They all take French, which might be an East Coast thing – which might be an East Coast thing, to be honest. Yeah. A lot of my East Coast friends took French.

Cameron: That’s true, my mother did take French.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. So.

Cameron: Okay. Sorry. Question answered.

Deepa: I just – like – it’s weird, though. There’s still more people speaking Spanish on the East Coast than French.

Dylan: Listen.

Deepa: Is it the proximity to Quebec? Like – [all laugh]

Dylan: [sarcastically] That’s not even “real French”.

Cameron: I know, I – it's very funny how people have feelings about Quebecois and their fucking “bastardization” of the beautiful French language, it’s hilarious.

Deepa: Oh my god. Oh my god. [laughs]

Cameron: And then everything is bilingual here, except not as much as people want. I don't know. All the products are. [laughs] Do we want to go to clothing?

Deepa: Yes! Dylan, are you prepared for this one?

Cameron: We can start if you –

Dylan: I was just reviewing my notes! I saw, I wrote – okay, Aria has – in episode 16, Aria has these, like, leaf earrings on, which were so popular back in that year. Like, what a moment! I'm just like remembering it. But, like, I feel like I'm high most of the time when I'm watching these shows, and I just really got – Aria's earrings progressively – you just get longer and longer and more dangly shit on them –

Deepa: Yeah.

Dylan: – and I feel like someone’s trying to fuck with me? [Cameron and Deepa laugh] They're just like, “I'm gonna make this bonkers!” Like, how are her ears holding all that up, is what I want to know?

Deepa: Well, and not getting that tangled with her hair, either? I don’t know.

Dylan: Yeah! I just…yeah. They probably bring the costume designer on every “and, cut!” And then she has to go and detangle everything. I'm sure that's someone's like full-time job, because the amount of dangly earrings that she wears is bonkers, and they're always so weird looking. I think – like I know they're trying to, “Oh, she's so artsy. She has these weird earrings.” But.

Deepa: The leaf earrings were, frankly, the most normal, so I didn't – I didn't take off points for that.

Cameron: I liked that outfit.

Deepa: I liked it too!

Cameron: I liked the leaf earrings and that dress. I thought it was nice.

Deepa: It was very –

Dylan: Was she wearing polka dots?

Deepa: Not that one.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: That’s a different one. It was – it was very similar to her outfit in the pilot that we liked.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: I voted that best outfit.

Deepa: Yes, I did as well. It was a cute dress, black leather jacket, boots.

Cameron: Nice boots.

Deepa: Nice boots. I actually liked a lot of Aria’s outfits. It was weird. I –

Cameron: It happens.

Dylan: Polka dots.

Deepa: I – the polka dot outfit with the polka dot headband – I actually liked, because I love headbands!

Cameron: You do love headbands. [cracks up]

Dylan: Oh, I – I wrote that as the worst outfit. [Deepa cracks up]

Cameron: Really?

Dylan: The polka dots, in the opening scene?

Cameron: Whoaaaaa.

Deepa: That was the worst?

Cameron: You said it was the worst?

Dylan: I didn't like it. It was ugly as hell. I mean, out of both episodes, at least, that one episode was the worst. And I also made a note about how much eyeliner they put on Spencer in the, like, first few scenes of episode 16? Like so much! I'm like, she's just so – like I'm turning into old person where I'm like, “You look prettier without all that!” [Cameron and Deepa crack up]

Cameron: Amazing.

Dylan: It’s just like – she's entering her emo phase because she’s trying to…get with Toby? Is that…? I don't know.

Cameron: Jesus.

Deepa: Pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah.

Dylan: Oh, I liked Hanna’s outfit when she’s standing in line for coffee. That’s what I liked.

Cameron: Can you describe it?

Dylan: No. [Deepa laughs]

Cameron: Okay, cool. [laughs]

Deepa: We’ll find it, we’ll find it for the show notes.

Cameron: I – when you were saying Spencer’s wearing too much eyeliner, that was my least favorite outfit. The shirt is like curtains –

Deepa: Wait.

Cameron: – and it has cows on it.

Deepa: Oh.

Cameron: It's poofy, it's striped, it's disgusting.

Dylan: Oh, yeah, I couldn't tell what animal that was.

Cameron: It's a fucking cow head. It's not even – it's just like, cow head here and then at the bottom. And I wrote, “It looks like curtains, but not in a cute way,” you know, not like in The Sound of –

Deepa: [at the same time] – not like in The Sound of Music way? [laughs]

Cameron: [laughs] Yeah! Just, bad. Just like huge, and ugh, disgusting.

Deepa: So you agree with everyone else in Salzburg, curtains aren't good clothing.

Cameron: I do not agree with everyone else in Salzburg, just in this specific context! [Deepa laughs]

Dylan: I want to propose something for y'all, starting now for rewatching, that you count every time they put Spencer in animal print.

Cameron: It’s every time.

Deepa: It’s too many times.

Cameron: I don’t think we can count it. Like, I just think it’s every episode. [laughs]

Deepa: It happens a lot. It’s starting to happen more now, I think, it hasn’t really been happening until the last episode when you pointed it out, Cameron.

Cameron: Fucking cow heads! For no reason!

Deepa: Yeah. I think I may have given that – no, you know what I gave worst? I gave worst just to Emily's beanie.

Cameron: It was so bad!

Dylan: Two beanies! It was the episode of the bad beanies!

Cameron: It was so bad, what the fuck was it!

Deepa: I didn’t even mind Caleb’s beanie.

Cameron: And why did it have that thing at the front? A different thing? Ew!

Deepa: No idea.

Dylan: That beanie was so bad, I –

Cameron: Disgusting.

Dylan: And then there was another bad beanie – I think that Aria was wearing?

Deepa: Caleb wears a beanie, but I don't mind Caleb's beanie.

Cameron: Aria’s wearing…? Spencer was wearing a beret!

Deepa: Spencer did wear a beret, which is hilarious.

Dylan: Sure.

Cameron: She’s French!

Deepa: She’s so French. Ugh. Ugh. I have two more good things that I like that I'll mention. I really loved Spencer's side braid. I didn't necessarily like the rest of the outfit, but the braid was so pretty. I loved it.

Cameron: It was good.

Deepa: Yeah. And I also, unfortunately, really liked Aria's black coat, even though it had fur trim lining – not black coat, blue coat – when they're a boutique and they see Jenna, and they're weird about Jenna literally buying clothes, like, what the fuck? It had fur trim, but the rest of the coat was really cute. I'm sorry. It's so many Aria things this episode, I know.

Cameron: It’s a weird thing for you.

Deepa: I know, I know.

Cameron: If Dylan can’t find notes, I can share a side braid anecdote.

Dylan: Okay, so they're in – they're sitting at lunch, I think, and some – I think it's Spencer says it, I didn't write who said it ‘cause bad note taking, but they're talking to Hanna about what she just gave to Caleb, and they said, “You gave him something that looks like a wet oven mitt.” And I'm like, that's what Emily's hat looks like in this scene!

Cameron: Yeah, it does.

Dylan: What a weird parallel!

Deepa: Yeah! Yeah, no, it was really bad. Cameron, what's your side braid anecdote?

Cameron: When I was knocking on strangers’ doors to raise money for abortion rights, one time – like just weird interactions with people. But, like, one time someone told me – ‘cause I used to wear side braids a lot –

Deepa: You did!

Cameron: – someone told me that I had the braid of a lifetime, and that's just like a really nice compliment!

Deepa: That is really nice! The braid of a lifetime! Awwww.

Cameron: Yeah.

Dylan: That’s sweet.

Deepa: I love that.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So Spencer goes to this bead shop and is trying to find out who made a beaded bracelet, and found out that A has given her name. [incredulous tone] And this throws her into such a crisis that she decides it's the same as Toby being, like, hunted by the police, arrested at gunpoint, kept in custody, then wearing an electronic home monitor, getting, like, ostracized by the whole town? And so she's like, “I know, I understand how it feels to be scapegoated!”

Cameron: Hilarious.

Deepa: What the hell, Spencer!

Dylan: I forgot about that.

Cameron: I – that was so funny to. You – you are –

Deepa: What? [all laugh] And the thing is, a lot of shit is gonna happen to Spencer in the future. But it hasn't happened –

Cameron: It hasn’t happened yet.

Deepa: – like, this kind of shit hasn’t happened yet. So, what? I think they just had to – my theory is that the writers had decided that Spencer and Toby are gonna be a thing now, and they –maybe the actors had chemistry, I don't know – and they just need some way to convince Spencer. But I don't know why they couldn't have just gone with that scene where she sees Spencer – I mean, where she sees Toby getting, like, harassed, and then having a panic attack, and her being like sympathetic to that! That seems way more compelling to me than this whole, like, “I understand how Toby feels, because A gave my name to frame me.”

Cameron: Absolutely not.

Dylan: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, she gets like one empathy for him during that scene. I think that would be better to build off of. Yeah, for sure.

Deepa: Definitely.

Dylan: Yeah. Spencer is suspicious of everyone. Emily and Hanna are very, like, understanding and empathetic and, like, understand, like different people have different things going on, so they're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. And then Aria just doesn't have any thoughts, only Ezra, which I hate. I'm like, that's her whole personality.

Cameron: It sucks so bad.

Deepa: Her whole personality! Ughhhh. Well, okay, in these episodes, though, she does have a whole other concern, which is her family, which is legitimate. But I do think it's ridiculous that she spends the same kind of investigating energy as the others spend on A, but she spends that on her parents and trying to find out if they're sleeping with each other! [laughs]

Cameron: Mhm.

Dylan: Yeah.

Deepa: And the root of that is still worrying about whether she and Ezra got caught on their date or not. Which – if –

Dylan: I think that that’s the root of it.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. But she does – I think she cares about her parents too. She cares, I think – I think – the part I like about Aria is the way that she cares about her family. But – but still.

Dylan: They're pointing her out to be – they're hoisting her up to be, “I'm family focused. I'm loyal to my family, and Ezra's my family.”

Deepa: UGHHH.

Dylan: And, like, that is the trajectory, right? That's like a core part –

Deepa: Ugh. Ugh. Gag.

Dylan: – of her personality is like, “I'm a family person, and I'll do whatever for my family.” And then, like, now I'm in the episodes where she had to watch Ezra’s kid. And I'm like, ugh.

Deepa: [laughs] Oh god!

Cameron: I was thinking, you know, when she finds out that Hanna did the putting of the ticket to her mother, and she said, “There is nothing that could happen that would make me do that to you.” LOL! Are you sure?

Deepa: I – I don’t think Dylan has reached this yet –

Cameron: Okay. Yeah. But she folds so quickly.

Deepa: Aria does fucked up shit to protect Ezra.

Cameron: She joins the A Team! She explicitly does.

Deepa: To protect Ezra over her friends.

Dylan: Yeah. Of course, yeah, I'm not surprised because she's loyal to her family, not her friends. Like, she – that's just who she is, which makes me respect her less. You know?

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, I do – I did – I did actually feel like – I think all that is super hypocritical, given what comes down the road.

Cameron: Yes. Yes.

Deepa: I did actually feel like her apology to Hanna, after she had a moment to think, was actually a really nice scene.

Cameron: Yeah!

Dylan: I thought so too. I was glad that they made up really fast, because that furthers the plot, and I was just like, I’m excited for this to be done.

Deepa: Yeah. And that – that was, like, one of the better friend moments that we see from Aria. So I appreciated that.

Cameron: No, I was glad she journaled about it and took a little time. I was like, oh, that’s great.

Dylan: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah! She did some processing. [all laugh]

Cameron: Yeah, I thought that was good.

Deepa: Oh my god. Oh my god.

Cameron: But it is – it is shitty how much time her being groomed takes out of her life and her – just, like, it zaps everything.

Deepa: Everything. Everything.

Cameron: It's so shitty.

Dylan: Sits around watching old movies.

Cameron: Ughhhh.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. And when she – when she does join the A Team, it's not just to protect Ezra in and of itself. It's to protect Ezra from being revealed as her abuser…which is a thing that actually happened! It's not a thing that A is making up without – so, anyway.

Cameron: Yup. Not creating.

Deepa: Skipping ahead, sorry, Dylan, but –

Cameron: Ugh, no, but it’s –

Deepa: – I don’t think it’s surprising.

Cameron: – infuriating.

Dylan: Yeah. Ugh. It’s so gross. I just can’t even imagine, like – doing that to my friends. Be like, “Yeah, okay.”

Cameron: Totes!

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's ridiculous.

Cameron: It is funny that – sorry, just going back to Spencer – she's, like, dreamy staring up at the ceiling after hanging out with Toby one time.

Deepa: One time!

Cameron: What?

Dylan: She’s easily seduced.

Cameron: This is true.

Deepa: “He’s different than I thought he would be…he’s just, he’s different.”

Cameron: “There’s just something about him…” [laughs] One time.

Deepa: Emily doesn't pick up on it, which is understandable, because until now Spencer has been so anti-Toby! [laughs] We do – she does also, though, not hide that she's there to interrogate him essentially. You know, she's pretty – she's pretty upfront about that, which is interesting, in a sense. Like, Toby has no reason to trust her. I don't know why she thought that would work, even though it did kind of work. But that seems lucky – like luck to me.

Cameron: Yeah. I do – I hate that she just opens the door and goes into Jenna's room.

Deepa: Oh my god!

Dylan: Yes!

Cameron:  Like, I know they're always doing violations –

Deepa: What the fuck!

Dylan: I wrote that, I wrote, “Spencer’s just walking into Jenna's weird grandma room with the creepy dolls,” like – like I know she’s –

Deepa: Our first creepy dolls.

Cameron: Love creepy dolls.

Deepa: I did appreciate that we get our first creepy dolls, even though I don't think dolls have much to do with Jenna in the future, but. [laughs] That, um, that –

Cameron: Snow globe.

Deepa: – snow globe! – does have relevance in at least one later scene.

Cameron: It does, yeah.

Dylan: What's also funny to me is just, like, how weirdly decorated her room is to make her look more creepy. And then also, like, the…I know this isn't in these two episodes, so I'm kind of thinking ahead – but the way that A always is making little dolls of everyone, but, like, sometimes putting like pictures of them on bottles –

Cameron: Yeahhh.

Dylan: – or, like – it's just so weird to me. I'm like – I can't even imagine – like, this isn't creepy. It just doesn't make any sense, you know? And then they're just like, this is the Spencer alcohol bottle, this is the Aria alcohol bottle, just like – or, like, whatever four items they have, and it's just so fucking funny to me. I can't even, like…

Deepa: Can I take a tangent here that I think you know where I’m going?

Cameron: Yes, you can!

Deepa: So Cameron, for my 25th birthday, I think – we were in sort of the height of our PLL watching obsession, and we were also really into Myers-Briggs because it was 2014, and they were all – and there were Myers Briggs quizzes all around us, you know. Cameron, for my birthday, gave me four bottles of wine. They were chosen to cross-reference two different Myers-Briggs articles. One was a Jezebel article about what wine goes with your Myers-Briggs type, and the other was the PLL Myers-Briggs. So Cameron cross-referenced them to choose the type of wine for each PLL character’s Myers-Briggs type, and gave them to me, and then went and got little fabric strips that match each of their fashion and tied them on the appropriate bottles. And that was my birthday present, and it’s one of the best birthday presents I’ve ever gotten!

Dylan: Awwww! That’s so sweet! That’s so cute.

Deepa: For years, I kept the wine bottles. I think I got – I think I had to finally throw out the actual wine bottles when I moved back from New York, I think, ‘cause it was just too much, but I do still have the fabric strips, so. [laughs]

Cameron: [laughing] Awwww.

Deepa: I had the fabric strips tied on my bed posts when we lived together, I don’t know if you remember that.

Cameron: I remember that, yeah.

Deepa: Okay. That was like a year ago, I don't know why you wouldn't remember that.

Cameron: No, we’re both very sentimental. [Cameron and Deepa laugh]

Deepa: But anyway, so. Yeah. Aria, Spencer, Emily, and Hanna wine bottles, you know.

Dylan: That's so funny. [all laugh]

Deepa:  I'm trying to remember what their wines were. I’m sure we could find them. I think –

Cameron: We have a rosé…

Deepa: Rosé was Hanna. Was –

Cameron and Deepa: – Nebbiolo –

Deepa: Was that Spencer?

Cameron: Nebbiolo was Spencer, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. Aria was champagne, maybe?

Cameron: I think so, yeah.

Deepa: What was Emily?

Dylan: Why?

Deepa: I don't know.

Cameron: I don’t remember.

Deepa: It was just – yeah. It was just, like, the Myers-Briggs thing.

Cameron: Was Emily a Riesling?

Deepa: I think Emily was a Riesling. Yeah.

Cameron: Gross.

Deepa: And this was – these were the days when you hated rosé, so it was really funny that Hanna was a rosé.

Cameron: Yeah. [laughs]

Deepa: Cameron was anti-rosé for some years there. [laughs]

Cameron: People grow, people change! [laughs]

Dylan: Cameron has very, very strong food opinions that usually aren't based in anything other than feelings.

Cameron: Yeah.

Dylan: And you never know until you bring it up. And then suddenly, you're like, whoa!

Deepa: I didn't know about French fries until recently.

Dylan: Yeah, the sloppy joes was really wild.

Deepa:  I've lived with you so many years at different times, and I don't know how I didn't know that. I mean, I guess during the pandemic I didn't eat a lot of French fries, ‘cause they're not good takeout. So.

Cameron: I told that to Dylan in confidence.

Dylan: [laughs] I had to tell – I had to say something.

Deepa: Thank you for sharing, Dylan. You needed to whistle blow this, I'm sorry.

Dylan: Listen. I know. So the other day we were – Cameron was over, and we were trying to – Iwas trying to say who was who in terms of the Liars of our friend group, and I was just like, “I guess Cameron is A –  not A, but Alison –” specifically because of all the secrets, only.

Deepa: Oh.

Dylan: Like, that's just the only thing. And then we couldn't really get anyone categorized into anything, because there's just so many weird parts with the Liars and us that just don't make any sense.

Deepa: [laughing] They don’t make any sense!

Dylan: And so I was just – we had a hard time trying to pin it all down, and no one –

Cameron: Woof.

Dylan: We didn't wanna make anyone be Aria, ‘cause then they'd have to be with Ezra.

Deepa: That’s the thing.

Dylan: And then we felt like that was weird.

Deepa: That’s the thing, yeah.

Cameron: We struggled.

Deepa: I feel like in the past I’ve usually been Spencer as who I –

Dylan: Really?

Deepa: I feel like that's maybe our trope, that Cameron and I have come up with over the years, that’s Hanna’s –

Cameron: We’ve just, like, created –

Deepa: – yeah, Cameron is Hanna and I’m Spencer, but.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: That might just be both being a little East Coast, ‘cause I lived in the East Coast for a while, and also her fashion. I like Spencer's fashion. So.

Dylan: You do?

Deepa: Yeah. [laughs] Not all the time.

Dylan: Does it get better?

Deepa: She has some horrible outfits. But I like Spencer's overall style. Yeah.

Cameron: I think Spencer has, like, the most menswear, kind of, than anybody?

Deepa: Exactly.

Cameron: There's a lot of, like, pieces that are interesting in there.

Deepa: There are a lot of neckties. There are a lot of vests. There are a lot of button-downs that are not – I mean, they're femme, but they're not as femme as button-downs the others wear.

Cameron: Yeah.

Dylan: Leland?

Cameron: Yeah, the architect.

Deepa: Oh, yeah!

Dylan: I just wrote, what a weird name!

Deepa: He's very good at being creepy. I'm impressed. Just like his face – like the way he smiles, like –

Cameron: Terrifying.

Deepa: Yeah, I wonder why he asked Ashley out on a date ‘cause that seems dangerous? To, like, let your mark get that close to you. Right?

Cameron: She's hot.

Deepa: She is hot, it's true. It's true. And I guess he could be pumping her for information the same way she was pumping him for information.

Dylan: So was his real name James? Is that why she says James later? Or was his full name Leland James, ‘cause I couldn't –

Deepa: No, Leland is his last name.

Dylan: Oh, it’s his last name?

Cameron: I think Leland James – or –

Dylan: Okay.

Deepa: No, I think it's James Leland. Leland is his last name, so she calls him James.

Dylan: Okay, okay.

Deepa: But we don't know his real name. He stole that identity from someone.

Dylan: Right right right. But I was just like, why is she calling him James now? I was confused because I was high, so. [Dylan and Deepa laugh]

Deepa: It is kind of – I didn't realize that you were watching these high. It is funny, because I think a lot of the things you're confused about you could still be confused about even if you weren’t! [laughs]

Dylan: Yeah!

Deepa: Because the show is confusing!

Cameron: Honestly. [laughs] I think that's very silly that we just, like, as the audience, get a zoom in of the motel room that’s 214. Like, c’mon!

Deepa: Oh my god, so silly. They’re just driving past it? No, that’s a very poor –

Cameron: I just thought that was a joke. [laughs]

Dylan: Do you want a  high thought that I had?

Deepa: Yes!

Dylan: When Spencer says, like, “‘Bad’? What does ‘bad’ mean?” when, like, she's trying to decode the Braille or whatever, and then he's like, “You have to think harder about it.” And I was like, yeah, Spencer. He meant ‘dab’. He wants to take you to a dab place and get high with you.

Deepa: [laughing] Oh my god!

Dylan: That's it! That was my bad joke. Thank you for entertaining that.

Deepa: [laughing] I – just – the forced mystery of giving her a note that has it written in Braille, instead of just writing what he wants her to know. Like. Who is he – where – what? Why couldn’t he have just written “214, I don't know what this is, so can you help me figure it out?”

Dylan: Also another high thought, because I forgot that it's Caleb in the school when they're getting scared, you know, and they're like being chased by someone in a hoodie. I was – I forgot that it was him. And so I was like – I paused it because you can kind of see the face, and I was like, are they really giving it away this early? And I was like, okay, so the hooded – this is what I wrote – the hooded figure’s flat-chested. Is Mona binding? Nonbinary she/her femme queen! …oh, it's Caleb – was literally what I wrote! [laughing]

Cameron: Jesus. [Deepa laughing]

Dylan: Really grasping straws here. Really just not thinking.

Deepa: Is Mona binding? Oh my god, that's so funny.

Cameron: It’s Caleb!

Deepa: That’s so funny. Wow. I do love Hanna hairspraying Caleb. I wasn't – I was gonna be impressed that she had pepper spray, because they never have that shit. But no, it was hairspray.

Cameron: It was hairspray.

Dylan: She’s so funny and cute and silly. I love Hanna, she’s the best.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: She’s great.

Deepa: I also love that when she asked Caleb where he's from, he says a bunch of places, but Seattle is the first place that he lists.

Dylan: Yes!

Cameron: I wrote that down too! Seattle!

Dylan: Whoo! [all laugh]

Deepa: Ahh, even with all the other stuff, Hanna and Caleb are just so cute. Like they – they're so flirty, and Caleb did so many really funny lines like, he got all the best lines in this.

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: Also, like, Ashley’s gonna love him so much in the future. So it's funny – it's weird to watch her being weird and racist to him right now.

Dylan: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like she gets attached to him very quickly. It's not even – like, within this season. [sighs]

Cameron: He’s great.

Dylan: He's a good guy. He's a great guy.

Cameron: [laughs] Great guy!

Dylan: They should give him a show or something. [all laugh]

Cameron: [laughing] They should give him a spin-off!

Dylan: Where it’s a little spookier!

Deepa: [laughing] Dylan, I was gonna – I was thinking yesterday about how, when you get to the point where Ravenswood as a show breaks off, if you want to watch it – it's not anywhere on the Internet, but I do have iTunes episodes of it, because I bought them in 2014.

Dylan: On my way right now.

Deepa: Unfortunately, I don't have all of them. I don't have the first episode, because I think the first episode was a free episode on iTunes, so I didn't buy it. But then the free episodes go away. Yeah.

Dylan: I’ll buy it if I have to.

Deepa: It's not…good, but it is the best spin-off.

Dylan: I don’t care. I was so much bad shit, like.

Deepa: And I think it did exactly what I wanted it to do, ultimately, because in retrospect I didn't want Caleb to leave PLL entirely, right?

Cameron: No.

Deepa: So it gave him a spin-off for one season and then brought him back.

Cameron: “Come back!” [laughs] And a ghost love interest.

Deepa: And a ghost love interest, yeah.

Dylan: I did want to bring this up: I was complaining to Cameron about how there are no gingers in the show – like, jokingly.

Deepa: No what in the show?

Dylan: But no, I mean –

Deepa: Oh, gingers! Gingers. I didn’t hear properly.

Dylan: Gingers, yeah. And then at the end, like, they show a little, like, oh, “Produced by –“ whatever, like, production company little logos that they have, and there's a picture of two ginger kids in there and Cameron goes, “There you go.” [Deepa cracks up] I'm like, “I'm gonna fight you.”

Deepa: Cameron! [laughing] That’s so funny. [all laugh]

Cameron: It’s the representation!

Deepa: Oh my god! [still laughing] Are we sure that there are no gingers?

Cameron: Well, Ashley is, like, slightly…

Deepa: Oh, Ashley’s ginger, yeah. You don’t think that Ashley’s a ginger?

Cameron: Dylan doesn’t buy it.

Dylan: Fake! Fake hair!

Deepa: Oh.

Cameron: Probably.

Deepa: I mean, I'm pretty sure they all have – I’m pretty sure most of their hair is dyed. All the blonds.

Dylan: Well, yeah. It's like a – it's like a very fake red. It's not like a gingery, you know. It's more, like, edgy.

Deepa: Edgy! [laughs]

Cameron: [laughing] This is amazing.

Deepa: Ashley Marin, so edgy.

Cameron: Famously edgy.

Dylan: Well – she's not, but, like, it's a different vibe than like a ginger vibe.

Cameron: Hmm. I guess you are the expert, so.

Dylan: I am the ginger expert, thank you.

Deepa: She wouldn't need extra anesthesia. [Cameron and Deepa laugh] Because gingers need extra anesthesia!

Dylan: Wait, she did?

Deepa: No! Dylan, do you know this about gingers?

Dylan: Yeah, no, every time I – every time I go into surgery, ‘cause I go into surgery all the time – [all laugh]

Cameron: Whoo!

Dylan: No, but before my top surgery, they were like, “Are you a natural ginger?”

Deepa: They ask that? That’s so funny.

Dylan: I was like, “Yes, please give me the extra shit.” They're like, “Yeah, I've had a ginger wake up on me before,” and I'm like – horrific. Also, my surgeon was a ginger, so it was really nice. But the anesthesiologist was not. But I'm glad that she asked that question, because it is a thing, and like we have – it takes a lot more for us to, like, not feel the pain. And it's just really weird.

Deepa: Cameron told me that at some point, and we both thought it was fake. And then I asked around, and it wasn’t fake.

Dylan: Did you ask your parents?

Deepa: [laughing] I did ask my parents, yes.

Dylan: That’s what you meant?

Cameron: “Asked around!”

Dylan: “I just asked some people!”

Deepa: I do know a lot of anesthesiologists, because of – including my parents. [laughing] I think I asked when my parents had people over for dinner who were also anesthesiologists! So there was, like, a crowd, there were like six of them.

Cameron: Wow.

Deepa: And they were all like, “It’s real!”

Cameron: I was shocked.

Dylan: It feels fake! It feels so fake, but it definitely is a real thing, and it’s just like – it's just funny, ‘cause you all know how sensitive I am. I can't do anything. Like when it comes – I can't be out in the sun for very long, otherwise I start to cry or, like –

Cameron: Day drinking is hard, yeah.

Deepa: Day drinking! Oh right, right.

Cameron: Day drinking with sun!

Dylan: I just get dehydrated super easily. I get like – I can't ever – I used to not be able to ever wear my hair in a ponytail because it hurt too bad. And it's just like – it's so annoying, ‘cause I'm just like, I know it's because I'm a ginger.

Deepa: Oh! Oof.

Dylan: Bonkers. We have no souls, and we feel everything, like. We’re just.

Deepa: [laughing] How do those things coexist?

Cameron: Damn!

Dylan: But no gingers in the show yet. Hoping that changes. You know?

Deepa: I can’t think of any.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't know if it will. I'm so sorry. I think you have to…yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, I can't think of any. Hmm.

Dylan: But in the – okay. So last night I was looking up the Liars’ zodiac signs, and in the little thing that they gave me – they gave – they said they were giving different zodiac signs, like book-Emily versus show-Emily –

Cameron: Yeah, they’re changed! Which is wild!

Dylan: – and they put a ginger picture for book-Emily, and I was like, is that a thing?

Deepa: I don't know about ginger, but Emily is white in the books. A lot more characters are white in the books. Mona's white. Emily's white.

Dylan: I'm glad they changed that for sure. That's way better than not – than having a ginger, I will say that. [Deepa laughs] But the – I was just like, who's this?

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: Emily!

Deepa: It's all so different. Emily's bi in the books. Trying to think of other major differences. Aria isn't only dating Ezra the entire time, like, Aria dates –

Cameron: Ugh! Why did they –

Deepa: – Noel Kahn is a legitimate love interest in the book, I think? Oh no, no, no. Aria also dates Sean. Sean lasts longer, and she actually dates him. Yeah. Yeah, my quick –

Dylan: Who’s Sean again?

Deepa: Sean is Hanna's boyfriend at the beginning who we don’t really –

Cameron: Pastor’s son.

Dylan: The virgin?

Deepa: We see him a couple times more, yeah.

Cameron: Boring virgin Sean, yeah.

Dylan: Oh, I do have a note about that, because Ashley's like, “That was Sean,” like, “Sean called you ‘Hanna Banana’,” and I – and I was like, I literally said out loud, “Yeah, but, mom, he was a virgin. He sucked!” [Deepa laughs] “Caleb fucks!”

Cameron: It’s true.

Deepa: [laughing] Caleb does fuck, it’s true. My quick Noel Kahn note is that at one point the subtitles on HBO Max call him “old con”! Like CON!

Cameron: On Hulu too! I wrote that because I was like LOL, the old con.

Deepa: The old con! [laughs] He's not very old, but he is a con,  I guess, at some points.

Cameron: He's definitely a con.

Deepa: I also – there's just one conversation that Melissa has with Spencer that really annoyed me. First of all, when she is like, “Ian told me about you two, so it's okay.” And she's like, “I can't fault you because we were broken up.” So I guess they were in a relationship, not just one kiss?

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: You were right, Cameron.

Cameron: You, yes, were wrong.

Deepa: I was wrong, yes.

Dylan: “I can’t fault you” that your coach was predatory towards you?

Deepa: That’s the – right, she doesn't say that at all, and she – and she later says, like, “Spencer, there's something wrong with you. You keep wanting what I have.” No, Melissa, you keep dating people who fucking, like, prey on your younger sister, and you don’t –

Dylan and Cameron: Yeah!

Deepa: What the fuck?

Dylan: Ian and then mouse guy.

Cameron: It’s bullshit.

Dylan: And then they fucking let mouse guy work in a in a hospital.

Deepa: [cracks up] ‘Mouse guy’ is Wren! Listeners, ‘mouse guy’ is Wren.

Cameron: Wren.

Dylan: He looks like a mouse. Listeners, he looks like a fucking mouse. We got Mickey Mouse up in here, Ratatouille, Chucky Entertainment Cheese. Charles Entertainment Cheese. He looks like a mouse. But seriously, like, they let him work in a place where there's children.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Well, eventually they let him work in a place where there are psychiatric patients. So that's –

Dylan: Yeah, no that's what I'm saying, like that –

Cameron: I think that’s what –

Deepa: Oh, okay.

Dylan: You have access to –

Cameron: Radley.

Dylan: – unwell teenagers.

Deepa: Yeah. I thought you just meant the hospital, generally, but also a psychiatric hospital.

Dylan: And like, that's weird. The amount of HIPAA violations this show has is also really stressful. [Cameron and Deepa laugh] But, yeah! Like. Fucking –

Deepa: Melissa.

Dylan: It's just weird – that whole, like, scene where she goes in to talk to him, and he's trying – she's trying to quit the team. And then – which is, like, controlling her whereabouts and making him go closer to her.

Cameron: Yeah. I fucking hate Ian.

Deepa: Yeah. I do hate Ian, but you know, the fact that he is portrayed as bad makes it a little easier to watch, I guess, because it's like – a lot of the abusers in the show aren't actually portrayed as bad. And even though Ian isn't portrayed as bad for that, he is still portrayed as bad. So. [laughs] It's not as bad as Wren, right, because Wren is just like, “Oh, he's cute and British,” and also preying on a teenager. So.

Cameron: Yeah, I do – like Melissa is definitely who I’m hating more in these scenes. When she's like, “You already ruined one of my relationships.” You know, just bullshit like that.

Deepa: Oh my god.

Dylan: She keeps that up, like, even later in later seasons, where she's like, “Yeah, are you dating mouse man again?” What's his name? Wren?

Cameron: Wren.

Deepa: Wren Kingston, I think, is his last name.

Cameron: You know it's his last name!

Deepa: Do I?? [Cameron and Deepa crack up]

Cameron: Yeah! [Cameron and Deepa still laughing] Sorry. We have our last segment. Dylan, do you have something for us?

Dylan: Yes! Okay, hi everyone. Forgot to get the like recipe, but I'll pull it up and send it to you so we can put in the show notes. But in honor of Aria being a vegetarian, there was this recipe I used to make a lot when I was vegan for three months. It did not last long, because it's not good for your body – or my body, at least. And it's like a tuna salad sandwich, but instead of the tuna you use chickpeas instead.

Deepa and Cameron: Ooh!

Dylan: So you – yeah. And I'll put the recipe in the show notes, or someone will. I will send it to you all. And it's really good. You just kind of, like, get it out of the can, mash it up a little bit, add in what you want to make the, like, salad part. Cameron hates mayonnaise, so instead of using mayonnaise, you can use avocado, which is fine, and that will kind of bind it all together. And then you just put it on your favorite kind of bread and make a little sando. It's pretty delicious. Or eat it with some crackers. And it's pretty good!

Deepa: Nice! I'm excited to try that.

Cameron: Thank you, Dylan.

All: Yayyy!

Cameron: Oh, has been so fun!

Dylan: This was a blast, I had a great time.

Deepa: Yay! Thank you for coming on! On the pod!

Cameron: I think we should all try to say the outro at the same time to make it most chaotic as possible.

Deepa: Dylan, have you gotten to that reference in the show yet? What we say at our outro? I don’t think you have.

Dylan: What do you say at the outro? I’m trying to remember.

Deepa: Oh no! [cracks up] That’ll make it even funnier.

Cameron: I think we should try it even though you don’t know.

Deepa: You can – you can catch up.

Dylan: Okay. Alright, that'd be really funny, I'll just –

Cameron: [laughing] To make it the worst possible. [all laughing] That’s what I love.

Deepa: Okay, you can count down, Cameron.

Cameron: [laughing] Okay! Three, two, one…

Deepa and Cameron: [slightly off from each other] Act normal, bitches!

Dylan: Oh, okay, I was going to say, “Be sleazy, bitches!” [all crack up]

Cameron: “Be sleazy, bitches”??

Dylan: I don’t know, I was trying to remember! I knew it was bitches something, but…take it sleazy, bitches!

Cameron: “Take it sleazy!” Jesus Christ! Okay, thanks everybody for listening.

Dylan: Remember to report all predators. Bye!

Deepa: [laughing] Bye!

[after a pause]

Cameron: [singing] Got a secret, can you keep it? Well, this one you’ll save! Better lock it in your pocket, taking this one to the grave. If I show you then I know you won’t tell what I said. [whispers] ‘cause two can keep a secret if one of them is dead!