Episodes 1.12 & 1.13: "It's Only a Felony If They Find Out"

This is a very special episode because we recorded it in person!! (We sort of apologize that the laughs are louder than usual.) We cover episodes 1.12, “Salt Meets Wound”, and 1.13, “Know Your Frenemies”, where we discuss lasagna box money, Pam being horrible, where Toby’s sweater came from, how many times Ian dies, and the only time Cameron has ever been wrong. This episode is kind of heavy as we spend a lot of time talking about homophobia, anti-Blackness, and fatphobia.

Episode Transcript: Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpea Recipe: Braised Chickpeas and Vegetables with Couscous, Harissa Yogurt, and Soft Eggs (Deepa would add more salt though)

Fashion Analysis: Our best and worst outfits, and some others we mentioned!

Things We Referenced Somewhat Related to PLL

• Diego Boneta (who plays Alex on PLL) and Rock of Ages, for likely the last time :(
• Rear Window, which was only related in the sense that the HBO Max description for episode 12 was: “Hanna's return home from the hospital and being stuck in a wheelchair makes her return feel more like a Hitchcock nightmare than a proper homecoming”
• Yani Gellman (who plays Garrett on PLL) and the other role he is famous for (if you don't know about this you absolutely need to click that link)
• Alice Bolin’s essay on the dead girl trope: “The Oldest Story: Toward a Theory of a Dead Girl Show”

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to Free Lawrence Jenkins! Lawrence is an incredible abolitionist, artist, farmer, political educator, organizer, & friend of ours who is currently incarcerated. Help his defense committee to fight for his release!

Transcript

Cameron: Hello. Welcome back to your favorite Pretty Little Liars rewatch podcast, Don't Forget the Chickpeas. I'm Cameron.

Deepa: And I'm Deepa.

Cameron: We have a very special episode today…

Deepa: ...because I am visiting Cameron, so we are recording in person instead of over Zoom!

Cameron: Wahoooo! Apologize if we are extra goofy.

Deepa: We will almost certainly be extra goofy. And today we're talking about episodes 12 and 13. Episode 12 is called “Salt Meets Wound”, and episode 13 is “Know Your Frenemies.”

Cameron: Yes. Did you have anything off the bat that you wanted to start with?

Deepa: Do we want to get some Ezra stuff out of the way?

Cameron: Ughhhhhhh. Yeah, probably.

Deepa: As always.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Because I have so much to complain about, but I kind of want it out of the way.

Cameron: It's like a bucket we need to throw stuff into.

Deepa: Exactly. So in these episodes, we had the whole plot line of Noel, quote unquote, “threatening” Ezra with wanting a different grade on a paper.

Cameron:  I was like, that paper is probably not that much worse than Spencer's paper that she stole from Melissa.

Deepa: That won an award!  Also, Noel's brainy.

Cameron:  Noel's brainy. He's the total package. I just, like, they wanted us to feel bad for Ezra.

Deepa: They wanted us to feel bad for Ezra, like the student is, like, threatening him and making him feel so – whaaaaat?

Cameron: Is that just to be like “power dynamics aren't real?”

Deepa: I think so, yeah. Yeah, I think so.

Cameron: Because this student! 

Deepa: Well, and they can only pull it off because Noel Kahn is, like, tall.

Cameron: He's tall, yeah.

Deepa: And probably played by an adult, right?

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: Imagine having an actual, like, fifteen-year-old in this scene, and the power dynamic thing would not—like, their attempt to bait and switch us on power dynamics would not work.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So. Yeah, that was ridiculous. I mean, I do love that Noel tries that. 

Cameron: Me too. 

Deepa: It's great. Yeah. If this is happening and you're not able to do anything about it in a way that is helpful for Aria, then at least just, like, fuck with this teacher.

Cameron: Get something out of it for yourself. Make him feel a little bit of pressure. And then he is going to go to the principal.

Deepa: And he is going to go to principal, yeah. Yeah. The thing that – okay, the thing that always bugs me, but the thing that really bugged me was: these episodes made it so clear, and spent so much more emotional energy on the possibility of Ezra getting any accountability – not even carceral accountability, right? Like not even the possibility of going to jail yet, we're just talking going to the principal, right? That got so much more emotional energy and it didn't even happen, than Maya getting actually sent to juvie. Actually reported because Pam is a homophobic fuck.

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah.

Deepa: And Maya is a Black person who got reported for having marijuana as a teenager, like fucking ridiculous – gets actually, like, in law enforcement type trouble, is going to be sent to juvie camp, which I don't know what that is really. It sounded actually –

Cameron: It sounds fucking horrifying.

Deepa: It sounded actually more like a Christian thing, so it's probably some diversion program, right? It's probably not actually state-run, which is probably like – not worse, it's equally bad. That actually happens and yet we spend all this energy on Aria being like, “My relationship. It's going to die,” blah, blah, blah, blah. What?

Cameron: We spend, you're right. The amount of time…and just, like, the build-up also. Emily just came out.

Deepa: Emily just came out.

Cameron: Yeah. And then two, three episodes maybe later, we ship her girlfriend away. So it's just like – even the amount of time, the amount of time for the story to actually happen.

Deepa: Yep, totally. Yeah, like even when they have – I mean, their scene at the end is extremely cute, and heartbreaking, also, when Maya leaves, but it's also interesting because their relationship has been so short at this point, right? And it's already been so fraught. They've had to go through so much just because of homophobia and anti-Blackness, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It's so fucked up. Anyway, but yeah, so I kind of am including that in the Ezra conversation, but that just put a fine point on this labored, like, long, drawn-out – like the scene in the hallway where he walks past Aria, and Aria is looking like this, and then they see Noel at his locker getting caught with test answers, I guess?

Cameron: Sure. Thanks, Mona. I don't know why you had to do that.

Deepa: That's the other thing. Mona protecting abusers.

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah, cause then Aria is just like, “A saved my relationship!”

Deepa: Exactly. Exactly. “A saved my relationship.”

Cameron: And then Hanna was like, “Okay, but they hit me with a car!” [the loudest laughter] Come on, let's get a little perspective here.

Deepa: Classic Aria, though. Classic Aria. Extremely self-centered.

Cameron: If we're getting our Ezra feelings out –

Deepa: Yes, yes, I think we are.

Cameron: – I have a quote I'd like to share.

Deepa: Oh no.

Cameron: Okay, Ezra says, either Aria, or Aria and him, is "the most real and honest thing in his life”.

Deepa: Oh my fucking god. Does Aria remember all this later?

Cameron:  I don't know how she can hold that –

Deepa: Those things together.

Cameron: Yeah. With the new knowledge.

Deepa: But you know what? I think he believes it.

Cameron: Aaaah!

Deepa: No, really. I think he thinks that at the core of this, like, because his love for Aria is, quote unquote, “real”, that's honest and true enough for it to be the thing that – and I mean, that's how the show treats it, right? That's how Aria's gonna treat it too. Like at the end of the day, he fucking takes a bullet for her, or whatever, so his love is “real”. And like, I almost think they want us to feel like he risked his mission by falling in love with Aria.

Cameron: Gross!

Deepa: Right? But it's entirely the opposite, his mission includes seducing and then getting information from Aria. So.

Cameron: After seducing another teen!

Deepa: Yes, exactly. In order to write about another teen. Yeah. Yeah. So. The “most real and honest thing”, oh my fucking god.

Cameron: In his life.

Deepa: In his life.

Cameron: That's what he said.

Deepa: That's just cause he's a sad, rich kid. [loud laughter] “Everything else has been about money. My parents never loved me. They're just so rich.”

Cameron: Oh my god.

Deepa: Right?

Cameron: No, it's exactly that energy. Also, he looked disgusting when they were having their romantic candlelit last-night goodbye. He just looked gross. So I want to bring that up.

Deepa: How did he get stubble in the course of an afternoon? That morning when Noel’s confronting him, he looks normal. By the evening, he is disheveled, which whatever, but he has stubble.

Cameron: It's just, like, the stress.

Deepa: Does he need to shave at lunchtime? Does he do that at school normally?

Cameron: I liked Noel calling it like, “So this is your little teacher outfit.”  [Deepa clapping] Wow, I just love Noel doing this like intimidation because, like, that's not real. But it just was really fun.

Deepa: It was really fun. It was really fun. I wish it worked. I wish it fucking worked. Yeah. Yeah. Oh god.

Cameron: Yeah, do we have other Ezra…?

Deepa: Other Ezra...? Oh, well, Ezra says to Aria, “Noel is not who you think he is”, which was my version of writing down a quote about Ezra's deception, right? LIke, uh, okay?

Cameron: What do you mean?

Deepa: Pot, kettle… [laughs] The other Ezra thing that I had was my literary analysis for the episode.

Cameron: I was hoping we'd get to Deepa’s literary analysis corner!

Deepa: It’s nowhere near as in-depth because I refuse to reread The Great Gatsby just for this podcast. I'm sorry. I have read The Great Gatsby at least twice, and it's whatever.

Cameron: Are you even dedicated to the pod?

Deepa: But I will say that we're going to get a lot of Gatsby imagery slash themes…but what Ezra wrote on the board was “themes of change and loss” and that Gatsby was, quote, “ambitious, ruthless, and charming”. And I think that's one of those things where it's supposed to be Noel, but it's actually Ezra.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Even though the show doesn't probably acknowledge it. And also, I mean, they're going to put Ezra in a Gatsby role later – like at least symbolically, Aria is going to dress up as Daisy for Halloween. And Ezra doesn’t go with her, but still, that's the symbolic thing. So, you know, yeah. I don't know, I just can't reread The Great Gatsby. I'm sorry.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't think you have to.

Deepa: I think I remember enough, but this is just the beginning of our Gatsby references. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't have any Gatsby thoughts. The other thing that he wrote was “the corruption of the American Dream”.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron:  It's like eye roll, eye roll, eye roll. Wow. Yeah, I don't think there's much to say about The Great Gatsby.

Deepa: Have we learned yet that Ezra's last name is actually Fitzgerald?

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Okay. Okay. Yeah. They're just so not subtle about that. The To Kill a Mockingbird and the Gatsby references are so blatant. I mean we haven't gotten to Radley yet, but. Oh my god. Should we talk about Emily and Maya because it's also fucked up? But like mixed in with sweet stuff?

Cameron: Yeah, I think we have to. It's the main storyline that I care about in this episode.

Deepa: Yeah, because these two episodes included both the dinner – and there were some parts of that that are really compelling and, yeah, interesting. I do love Maya telling Wayne that her parents met at a “no nukes rally.” Amazing. At Berkeley.

Cameron: At Berkeley. Pam’s horrified face!

Deepa: But even Wayne is a little – like my memory of was that Wayne reacted okay to all this and he's still a little like  –

Cameron: He was like, “Oh.“

Deepa: He's, like, trying. But I do think that scene reminded me that Wayne is still this, like – Wayne being in the military means we still have –  and the position they give him, and the position that they give the Fieldses – means we do still have to treat him with a lot of scrutiny, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Even though he is the best dad of the dads, that's where things like this play out. And! When Pam reports Maya, she says, “Don't call your dad, he agrees with me. He's just as disappointed in you as I am.”

Cameron: Is he though?

Deepa: Probably not, but – or probably he is, but the way Pam has framed it. I think Pam has framed it as, like, “Emily is doing pot with Maya.” And I think Wayne is against that. And I think that's where this piece comes in, right? Like I think he's – because the first thing that he said when he like was telling Pam about Emily's coming out to him was like, “I was worried she was on drugs.” Right?

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: Which is a classic TV thing for parents to say when their kids come out. “At least they're not doing this.” Like fuck that. But yeah, so I think he is – he would be disappointed at that side of it.

Cameron: Yes, you're right, you're right. Okay, I have a question. Because like – okay, so how did Pam report this? Because in my mind, in my recollection of it, I was like, Pam told her parents. That's when they shipped her off. But if they're fucking hippies, I don't understand. Like if they are – maybe they've changed their ways, but if they're like –

Deepa: They're probably yuppies. They probably people who were hippies when they were in Berkeley, and now they're like – I mean, they're living in fucking Rosewood.

Cameron: That's true.

Deepa: We don't know anything about them. We never meet them.

Cameron: But we have this idea of them as more permissive.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. No, it's a good question.

Cameron: I didn't understand, maybe Pam went to some other level.

Deepa: Maybe. It's possible. But I do think she told her parents. Yeah. So I guess yeah. Yeah, which is very disappointing, obviously, that her parents do that.

Cameron: It sucks so hard that it happens, I think I just said this like 20 seconds ago, but that we get the dinner and then the shipping her off.

Deepa: Yeah, immediately after. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, like, it gives you absolutely no time for anyone to process anything about the dinner, and how that went, and what that means – like immediately Pam is just still so suspicious. And still –

Cameron: I mean, like, isn't it enough that she says, “This makes me fucking sick?” Like, isn't that enough?

Deepa: That's already too much!

Cameron: Couldn’t that be enough? She said something, yeah, horrible, just like this. And then maybe we could sit with that, but no. No, we have to –

Deepa: No. Absolutely not. She walks in on them, like, doing homework and tangling their feet together, and she gets fucking upset when Maya calls her "Pam". Aaaah!

Cameron: Yeah. Oh. So she goes through her fucking bag.

Deepa: So she goes through her bag.

Cameron: Yeah. I mean, it's not that much – it's not confusing why she would work for the cops.

Deepa: Yeah, no, no. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: Like that makes sense.

Deepa: Yeah. And I'm just gonna reiterate, like, we've talked about this before, but it fucking sucks that the family that is placed in these really carceral positions is the family of color, because it's very much playing into this – and not to say that doesn't exist. It absolutely exists.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But that's the representation that you choose to have, and it reinforces this idea of, like, America being – I mean, talk about the American Dream, right? Like America being this egalitarian place where anyone can be a cop. Anyone can be in the army. Anyone can assume these levels of power and do harm to other people from this rich suburban neighborhood, right? You don't have to be white to do that, even though whiteness shapes everything in this show too.

Cameron: Yeah. 

Deepa: You just have to be anti-Black.

Cameron: Right, as long as that. We'll work with it, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. And Asian anti-Blackness is obviously something I think about a lot and care about fighting a lot. And it's very, very, extremely clear in these episodes. Extremely.

Cameron: And I think – like when Pam and Wayne are having that conversation after Emily comes out, you know, I think Pam's like, “Why didn't she tell us?” and Wayne’s like, “I think she was afraid,” and Pam was like, “This is what she's afraid of,” and holds up the picture of Maya and Emily kissing. And that just feels like this incredible like, you know, predator, right? Like a predatory lesbian. Which has definitely anti-Blackness, like, entwined in it.

Deepa: Definitely. She's got this whole narrative of Maya corrupting – like that's where the pot thing really hits, you know, a climax, like, is this idea that – it confirms for her, in Pam's mind, that Maya's a corrupting influence, and that sexuality is just one piece of it. So Maya's cast as this, like, threatening figure.

Cameron: So that it just like – you know, their fun banter upon first meeting and Maya being like, “Am I corrupting you?” It just ruins it, you know.

Deepa: Oh no, I didn't even think about that. Oh god. Oof.

Cameron: Because then the show decides yes.

Deepa: The show decides yes. I mean, I was going to say, does the show decide yes? The show is not, you know…like, the show doesn't acknowledge – I think where the show goes wrong is they won't tie those things together. They will think it's still a fun joke to say that when they have this whole plot line that is coming up. And, like, a little bit – in my mind, that's a little bit of naivete too. I didn't think of that until you –

Cameron: I just thought of it.

Deepa: So yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, it's just a fucking bummer.

Deepa: Yeah. And they get so little happy time. Like that's gonna happen again when Maya comes back. They will have some. And it's just, it's heartbreaking.

Cameron: It really is.

Deepa: It's so fucked up.

Cameron: Ugh, yeah.

Deepa: I feel like I have a little bit more, but I've forgotten. Oh, I guess we should confirm, but I gave Pam worst parent.

Cameron: Yeah. Obviously. I wrote Pam like three times. I was like, “Pam, Pam, Pam!” Cause I wanted to give it to her in the first episode, and then the second episode happened.

Deepa: I didn't even remember how quickly those things happened, right? Like the fact that it's so fast, you know. Yeah.

Cameron: I know. I wanted to give her worst parent for just, like, being –

Deepa: For saying “this makes me sick”? Saying “this makes me sick” to your child? What the fuck do you think that's gonna help? I, like, take back what I said earlier about Pam, you know, caring about – I mean, she does care about Emily, but not really. Right? She cares about the Emily in her head. The perfect Emily that she wants, not the actual Emily in front of her. Because a parent doesn't say that if you care about your actual child. You say, like, “I'm worried about you,” or something and you're still fucked up, but you don't – you don't tell your child that they make you sick. Fuck you, Pam.

Cameron: Ugh. Fuck you, Pam. Worst parent. Like other parents have like some snide comments or whatever, but like there's nothing that compares to this bullshit.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Who'd you do your best parent too?

Cameron: I mean, I gave it to Ashley.

Deepa: Yeah, it’s definitely Ashley! It's definitely Ashley.

Cameron: I mean, she's doing chaos, of course.

Deepa: I love that the first episode starts with lasagna box because we love lasagna box money.

Cameron: I was so happy lasagna box money came. And like yes, that's completely absurd, but the way she was just like dealing with it – I don't know, she was just like, “I'm not going to yell at you. It's not going to bring the money back.” I don't know.

Deepa: No, totally. Totally. It had a little bit of, like, “I'm not mad I'm disappointed” vibes, but honestly not that much.

Cameron: No, I think she was just resigned.

Deepa: She was like, okay, what's going on? Yeah, yeah. We just have to acknowledge the fact that – this is literally stated – that the reason they put the money in a lasagna box is because they don't eat carbs. [laughter]

Cameron: Yes, we love diet culture.

Deepa: Especially in this episode where Hanna gets the fatphobic punishment.

Cameron: Oh my god.

Deepa: Okay, we'll stay with Ashley for a second. Before we get there, Ashley gets the money in the lasagna box, immediately loses the money in the lasagna box; fortunately, has paid off some of their debts already, but was going to invest the money to then…gain it back?

Cameron: It's better in the lasagna box, I think. Okay. So speaking of lasagna box. Mona throwing a party. I do think some of it was because she felt that for hitting Hanna with her car. But I mean, obviously it's to steal money from the lasagna box.

Deepa: To cause chaos. For sure. Yeah. Because, like, Mona doesn't eat carbs either. She has to have some cover for getting the lasagna box down. She can't just do it when she's hanging out with Hanna. Also making the surprise scary after Hanna was hit by a car is such a power move.

Cameron: Oh, Mona.

Deepa: It was funny – so I've been watching those on HBO Max, and I don't know what the summaries are like on Hulu where you've been watching it, but the summary for this one made it out to be like Rear Window-ish themed. Because Hanna's in a wheelchair? But it wasn't Rear Window themed at all.

Cameron: But it wasn’t. We've watched that.

Deepa: I did make you watch Rear Window in early pandemic because it seemed incredibly appropriate. I think we watched it during the summer when it was incredibly hot, and it was just, like, the exact right setting for Rear Window.

Cameron: Yeah, creeping on balconies. [both laugh]

Deepa: People sleeping outside. We did not creep on that many – well we kind of creeped on some people early pandemic, but mostly we creeped on cats in windows.

Cameron: I think we – I personally creeped a lot on what people were watching because I had some good angles on other people's televisions, and that kept me going.

Deepa: Right, from your room especially, yeah. But then there were also the people down across the street with the cats and the television, and who were clearly gay, but, like, were watching a very specific subset of gay media.

Cameron: A lot of RuPaul. 

Deepa: A lot of RuPaul. And always just had the funniest signs in their windows, like, whenever something came up, it was like “Stop Asian Hate”! But then also just Pride stuff all the time. They were funny. Their cats were cute.

Cameron: They were cute.

Deepa: Anyway, this episode did not have Rear Window, but I thought that was an interesting framing.

Cameron: That is not – doesn't make any sense.

Deepa: It doesn't make any sense. I would have liked it to be! Like a fun –

Cameron: Maybe.

Deepa: I don't know if it made sense for this episode, though. But yeah, the scary parts, the, like –

Cameron:  And then there's just a fucking giant party.

Deepa: And there's a giant party. Yeah. And there's chaos at the party because of Lucas.

Cameron: Because of Lucas!

Deepa: Oh my god, Lucas is being such a dick. I just don't care. Like, I don't care about – like I obviously don't like Sean.

Cameron: No!

Deepa: But it's not fun to watch Lucas one-up Sean when Hanna's right there being hurt in the middle of it, right? At the end of the day, that's what's happening. Is Hanna's being hurt because she still likes Sean, and she likes Lucas as a friend. And she's been extremely clear with him about it. He's just fucking acting out.

Cameron: She sent him emails being like, “Hey. Checking in.”

Deepa: Extremely clear. Extremely clear. And he just comes to this, like – yeah. It also disappoints me because if he hadn't been a dick, Lucas could have some good yearning, and you know I like yearning.

Cameron: I am so sorry they didn't give that to you.

Deepa: It's okay. They give me enough Emily yearning and Alison yearning that I am satisfied. But it just did hit me that that was a missed opportunity, because he's not bad at doing, like, a sad yearning face.

Cameron: No, he always looks like that when Hanna is around.

Deepa: So if they shaped that story better, I could have seen that working out. But no. It's okay. I have plenty – I have gay yearning, so it's better.

Cameron: That’s true. We don't need to dabble into straight yearning.

Deepa: Oh my god.

Cameron: Sorry, you brought up Alison, and we get a couple moments of her– in the party flashback, in just her being caught in a lie, which is interesting.

Deepa: Which one?

Cameron: So Spencer, as you know – the night she comes home, you know, visiting her grandma. Allegedly.

Deepa: Yes, yes.

Cameron: And Spencer, like, sees her ticket or tag—bag tag, I don't know—from Hilton Head. And she was like, “Oh, were you at Hilton Head?” And Alison is just so fucking – like her reaction to being caught in a lie, and for Spencer to keep kind of pushing it, not even that much, just a couple more questions, like, “Oh, I thought that was you were in Georgia.” And she's like, “It's still the south.” [loud laughter] Just this very, like –

Deepa: Yeah!

Cameron: Like Spencer was not playing by her rules and just daring to, like, kind of question her, which doesn't happen a lot.

Deepa: No. That's true. And it mostly only happens from Spencer, so she is especially on guard with Spencer from that, and, like, attempting to take Spencer down to counteract that. Interesting. Yeah. That’s very good analysis.

Cameron: It was just very funny. I was just like, oh. Like she was just like, “It’s still the south.”

Deepa: That's amazing. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. And we also get Ali teaching Hanna to do bulimia. And then breaking up Noel’s past relationship for Aria.

Deepa: I just want to say – I think other than the yellow top, I think we shouldn't use the flashbacks as outfit places, because all of them were horrible. And I think the Liars are – sorry, Ali’s obviously a Liar, I think the rest of them are supposed to be horrible because they're like, you know, growing into themselves. But Alison also doesn't dress well, and it confuses me. Like, I get that she's probably like thirteen, but still.

Cameron: She is like thirteen.

Deepa: But I feel like she doesn't dress well for a thirteen-year-old! Like again, these are the outfits that we would have worn at that age, and we are half a generation – sorry, not half a generation, but at least half a decade older than them.

Cameron: And, like, explicitly not cool.

Deepa: Explicitly not cool. Oh my god.

Cameron: I do want to read the quote that she says after breaking up –

Deepa: I think I wrote it down too.

Cameron: – Noel’s relationship, she says, “I only kill when we need food,” and then pauses a little bit and says, “or I'm bored.”

Deepa: I wrote down this exact quote as well! It's so funny.

Cameron: Alison!

Deepa: Alison DeLaurentis. Oh my god. Oh, I did write down one other part, which is right before then, she says, “What's with the ‘tude, guys?”

Cameron: She did say “what's with the ‘tude”!

Deepa: And again, this is confusing cause she seems like she's in the wrong era of teenagers? But again, Sasha Pieterse actually is the right age for this, so you'd think she – I mean, I guess she's young, she can't go to, like – but she can offer script notes, like “I don't think a thirteen-year-old would say this in 2011.”

Deepa & Cameron: “What's with the ‘tude, guys?”

Deepa: Oh my god. Ali. Oh, well, back to Ashley a little bit.  So: Ashley knowing when Hanna's lying.

Cameron: Oh, that was so cute.

Deepa:  Such a cute scene. Such a cute scene. Also, how does Hanna then get away with it for so long? ‘cause she does lie to – I guess she doesn’t outright lie to Ashley that often.

Cameron: I think Ashley might be lying. You know?

Deepa: Good point.

Cameron: I don't know if she actually knows, but she could say it.

Deepa: That's a good parenting move. Yeah. “I always know Hanna.”

Cameron: “I always know.” And then, like, I'm not saying there isn't, like, some potential thing with your children, if you’re a parent. Oh, they're just so cute.

Deepa:  They are cute. They are cute. I wasn't serious about this, but the only other parent I vaguely considered was at the end of the first episode, episode 12 – when Peter and Spencer are talking, I really enjoyed that scene! Mostly because Peter clearly dislikes Ian so much. But he was also just in, like – he didn't say “champ”, but it was the right mood. He was just, like, his jovial dad self, you know, with Spencer, which I find fun, especially when he's hating on Ian.

Cameron: Yes. He's like, “Oh, I should have watched the game with you down here!”

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. That was kind of cute. He was like, “I didn't know you were home. I wanna hang out with my kid!”

Cameron: I've never seen this before, Peter. I didn't know that was something you engaged in.

Deepa: But no, Ashley was obviously the best parent. 

Cameron: Yeah. Oh man, do we have to talk about the situation at the Hastings home?

Deepa: The Hastings home? Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: I feel like Melissa – one of the main things about her throughout this series is, like, she's either pregnant, or maybe had an abortion, or is pretending to be pregnant, or, like – it's just such a –

Deepa: A lot of pregnancy related storylines. Yeah, yeah. Well, and they all get wrapped together, right?

Cameron: Right. Absolutely. Yeah.

Deepa:  Yeah. Yeah, we've got pregnancy, miscarriage, and abortion storylines all in one character.

Cameron: And I feel like because the timelines are so squished, you know, this is maybe five months or something. That's a lot.

Deepa: Yeah. No, it's true. It's true. The abortion…I don't remember when the abortion happened. Because it's a flashback. It's a thing in the past.

Cameron: In Hilton Head?

Deepa: I don't think it is Hilton Head. I mean, maybe. I think I also get those things confused. So, it very well could be, but I don't actually know if it is. Because I think the thing – I think the reason we think it is, is because there's the same thing of calling a hotel to see if she was there. But I don't think – no, you know what? Maybe it is! Because we keep – whenever we watch this, we’re like – Hilton Head is in South Carolina, right? So you went from Pennsylvania to South Carolina to get an abortion?

Cameron: To get an abortion! We talk about this.

Deepa: We do talk about this. Okay, okay. Oh my god. Why? That makes zero sense. I'm sorry. There have to be a shit-ton of abortion clinics in the Philadelphia area compared to anywhere in South Carolina, honestly. Wow. Yeah, but Melissa's whole, like, shift into wife-and-mother mode, you know?

Cameron: Ooh. As like – in still a way that she's competing with Spencer.

Deepa: Absolutely. Yes. Now she's competing for happiness. Right?

Cameron: No, totally. It's like, “I can see why those things interest you still.”

Deepa: “But you know, when you find someone, it just turns everything around. You don't have to worry about all that stuff anymore.”

Cameron: Melissa!

Deepa: Melissa Hastings! What the fuck?

Cameron: You're talking about Ian.

Deepa: You're talking about Ian. You're talking about Ian, and you're talking about all of your priorities reversing. Except for competing with Spencer. That's the one –

Cameron: We're going to keep that.

Deepa:  We're going to keep that and just reframe it. God. I do love how even Veronica is just like, “Yeah, it's absurd, but like what do we do about it?”

Cameron: She’s like, “It's outrageous!”

Deepa: Oh my god. Yeah, there was the whole Melissa scene of her talking about how great marriage is and how much she wants a family and how much they want kids immediately.

Cameron: Yikes.

Deepa: And then we just have all the other Ian stuff, right? I guess we don't get that much of direct Ian. I watched this a little while ago, so –

Cameron: We're, like, talking about him a lot, though.

Deepa: We're talking about him a lot, and then the video, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. And there's a moment after Spencer finds the ovulation kit or whatever pregnancy tools they're using. Ian walks in, and he was like, “Oh, I thought that was going to be a secret,” and Melissa's like, “Don't worry, Spencer can keep a secret.” And Ian says, “I know.”

Deepa: Ahhh! Disgusting. Disgusting. Oh my fucking God.

Cameron: I hate that man.

Deepa: I hate him so much. I hate him so much. Every single word he says to Spencer is so fucking gross. Like when he's like, “We're a family now.”

Cameron: “We’re a family now.” What?

Deepa: Yeah, you had a relationship with her. What?

Cameron: When she was even younger than she is right now.

Deepa:  She cannot have been more than fifteen at that time. Because this was before her freshman year.

Cameron: Ew.

Deepa:  No. So yeah, she was probably like fourteen. Ew, right? The summer before – yeah, I'm pretty sure. No, wait. I do get a little mixed up. No, no, it's the summer before their sophomore year. Still disgusting. Fifteen.

Cameron: Fifteen!

Deepa: Fourteen, fifteen is about the same when you’re an adult. So yeah. Extremely gross. Extremely gross.

Cameron: And yeah, I do love that they think that Ali's dying in the video when they're just doing some sort of, like, hooking up.

Deepa: But not having sex.

Cameron: They never have sex with minors.

Deepa: Never have sex. They just otherwise sexually assault them? Like, it’s still sexual assault, guys. It doesn't matter. Yeah. I'm sorry. Ughhhhh.

Cameron: We don't need to dwell on the Ian and Melissa stuff.

Deepa: Yeah, we'll get a lot more of it. Yeah. Oh my god. Melissa Hastings. Chaotic. Chaotic. And like, what – yeah, sorry. I won’t dwell on it. I don't have much more to say. I was just gonna complain more. I was just gonna complain more. [both laugh] Oh, they are so naive at this point to not, like, back up that video because that gets them in trouble later, right? And like I don't really blame them at this point, but like they're gonna keep having stuff like that happen yeah like.

Cameron: Yeah. The fact that the tree got cut down. I feel like that's the state you need to think about those things, but, like, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, they're gonna remove a tree, so like – they sent you this video, obviously they're gonna try to have some mechanism to take it back.

Cameron: It's not like they sent it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Deepa:  No. No. Can we talk a little about Mike?

Cameron: Oh, we got Mike!

Deepa: We got some Mike! We opened the 13th episode with Mike sitting and reading the newspaper?

Cameron: So cute. At the breakfast table. I really enjoyed that.

Deepa: I really enjoyed that too.  I also just wanted to say, I was correct. Noel does try to befriend Mike.

Cameron: I’m sorry. My b. Yes.

Deepa: Which I kind of love.

Cameron: Sometimes I am wrong. Rarely.

Deepa: Sometimes you admit it, you know.

Cameron: Sometimes.

Deepa: Sometimes a year later, but.

Cameron: It takes a while.

Deepa: This time I have proof, so you have to admit it's sooner than a year later. I'm like, I recorded myself saying it. Is this podcast just a way for me to back up when you're wrong?

Cameron: That’s a lot.

Deepa: I mean, the other, it works in reverse too.

Cameron: That's why half of our show notes are corrections!

Deepa: “Deepa said the wrong thing about The Sound of Music!” Okay, back to Mike. Back to Mike. Yeah, I do enjoy Noel trying to befriend Mike, and then Mike gives us the correct perspective on this situation. I'm sorry, I don't mean to take it back to dwell on the other stuff, but Mike has the correct perspective of like, “Yeah, the teacher that you like is fucked up and I'm like, everyone feels sorry for the girl, but like we have to do something about this.” Yeah.

Cameron: And you know what fucking Byron says?

Deepa:  Oh wait, tell me.

Cameron: He says, “Accusations like that could ruin someone's career.”

Deepa: I mean, of course he fucking does because he's been in that exact position!

Cameron: Exact position.

Deepa: So, “accusations”. Accusations, accusations. Fuck you, Byron.

Cameron: ‘cause yeah, like Mike is just like, “Oh shit, this is kind of fucked up. Let's do something about it.” And Bryon’s like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not get too ahead of ourselves here.”

Deepa: Yeah. This does make me extremely excited for the moment later in the show when Mike punches Ezra in the face.

Cameron: What a treat.

Deepa: It’s not enough, but we need something. And it starts here. Yeah, I thought it was nice to see Mike. It was nice to see Mike.

Cameron: Yeah, he was giving good like angsty teen vibes. Like, “I don't want to sit down for dinner.”

Deepa: Oh yeah, Ella's seeing other people. And Byron is very sad sack about it. What the fuck did you expect? You're separated. You cheated on her. Of course, she's, like, amazing.

Cameron: And she's living by herself.

Deepa: She’s living by herself. She's, like, a really cool, hot person. Of course she's fucking dating. She's not on HotMama.com yet. Yes. Oh yeah, sorry, it's not HotMama.com. She's Hot Mama. She's the hot mom. Yeah. But yeah, she should be dating. Yeah. Fuck you, Byron.

Cameron: Oh. Yes. Excuse me.

Deepa: I don't think I had any good Mike is A – I mean, I guess that could be an interesting Mike is A moment, but then A takes it back.

Cameron: To say that someone else started a rumor.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly. Exactly. But then Mike wouldn't take it back and, you know, save Ezra.

Cameron: Oh, Mona.

Deepa: Why, Mona? I mean, Mona does this, yeah. Mona does protect a lot of abusers. And it's fucked up.

Cameron: Boo.

Deepa: Boo.

Cameron: I guess we should probably talk about Alex, who, you know? It was a short-lived…

Deepa: Short-lived, short-lived.

Cameron: I just. It's so fucking funny. [both laugh] Like I feel bad for Spencer 'cause he's cute, and nice, and, like, they just seem to be having a good time. But the Mona move on this is fucking hilarious.

Deepa: It's so – like – it's so easy for her!

Cameron: So easy.

Deepa: She's like, “Oh, this didn't take any effort at all!” I'm sure.

Cameron: Like overheard one piece of information. And was like, boop, boop, boop.

Deepa: Just add a little like class tension here, right? Because, yeah, Spencer's priorities, and Alex's…oh my god. Yeah, it is really sad. But also really funny. Then he's just gone.

Cameron: He’s gone to Sweden.

Deepa: No, he's not going to Sweden at this point! He doesn't want to go to Sweden!

Cameron: He's going to Sweden! No, I know he's not going to Sweden. Yeah, it's very much like, why would you work to save up money for college when you could do this cool opportunity thing?

Deepa: Well, I think Spencer's point is like, “This opportunity could get you other things,” but he's like, “That's not realistic. That's still a long shot. And this is not a long shot, making money in the near term, it's not a long shot and it’s saving.” So – and, like, and I kind of believe that he doesn't really want to do it. I don't know if it sounds fun to go and do a tennis clinic if your day job is working at a country club and you got to see all these snobs all the time, right? I do think it's funny that Spencer immediately goes, “I could get an internship there!”

Cameron: That was very funny.

Deepa: Spencer, Spencer. Yeah, so we say bye to Alex. We don't ever see him again. It's very sad. We would like to know where his storyline would have gone, Diego Boneta, if you're listening.

Cameron: Yeah, if you have some thoughts.

Deepa: Please come on our podcast and talk to us about anything you want. As long as we talk a little bit about PLL.

Cameron: I would also like to hear about Rock of Ages.

Deepa: And your career! [both laugh] You can sing for us.

Cameron: That'd be nice!

Deepa: So we lose Alex. And in the next episode, we immediately have Spencer showing the first amount of sympathy she has for Toby, in a very heart-wrenching, awful scene.

Cameron: Ugh, that scene sucks.

Deepa: That scene sucks. Toby's just walking down the fucking street, and, like –

Cameron: – getting called a murderer, children are running away from him.

Deepa: Children are running away from him, and he has a panic attack in a little alley. And it's horrible! And like, I mean, I'm glad it makes Spencer feel sympathetic for him, but it's also like, what were you doing until now? Like, you had to see this moment to have any sympathy for him as a person. You would previously would have rather had him dead, you know, than this, even though he is someone who grew up in the same town as you and, like, that you harmed by putting the blame on him for a thing that you all did that, like, you know, caused violence to his stepsister.

Cameron: Yup.

Deepa: And this is the first time you have sympathy for him. And then you're only going to have more sympathy because you fall in love with him, right?

Cameron: Yeah and then he cuts his hair or something. [both laugh]

Deepa: Well, first she tutors him in French. That's what's coming up.

Cameron: She tutors him, okay.

Deepa: It's coming up that she's going to tutor him in French, but, like is kind of also there to spy on Jenna, right?

Cameron: Makes sense. Yeah.

Deepa: But then falls in love with him. And I think they play Scrabble.

Cameron: They play Scrabble so much. [both laugh]

Deepa: In Spencer's defense, I don't think he cuts his hair before they get together.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: I think it's after he's become a carpenter.

Cameron: Gotta get your hair out of your eyes!

Deepa: Exactly. So he still has the same vibes when they get together, but they definitely change and we're definitely gonna need to talk a lot more about Toby's masculinity at that point.

Cameron: I don't have any hot takes about his masculinity today. But they’ll come. Yeah.

Deepa: Definitely. Definitely. No, that scene is just so sad. And it's just…yeah. Yeah. I mean, the thing is I know this does happen. Like it's not – it's not– it's a real thing that people who are caught up in the, you know, criminal legal system, then also go forward and become part of it.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But it's just so hard to watch, you know? Like, look how traumatized he is. And then later he's gonna…yeah, we talked about this.

Cameron: Then he's gonna do other people!

Deepa: He's gonna do it to other people, because he thinks that's the only way he can do good. Are you fucking kidding me?

Cameron: It just doesn't make any sense.

Deepa: You've been screwed over by every part of this: by your reform school, by cops, by lawyers, like… ugh.

Cameron: And I guess I don't understand – sorry – so the blood on his sweater is Alison's blood?

Deepa: Ye-es?

Cameron: And that means something? I don't know. It just seemed like it was thrown in there. And I was like, I don't really care.

Deepa: Remind me, where did they get the sweater? Does he have the sweater?

Cameron: I don't think so.

Deepa: Where was the sweater found? Was she wearing it?

Cameron: She was wearing it at the Kissing Rock –

Deepa: At the Kissing Rock, yes.

Cameron: – in the video.

Deepa: But where did they find – but it's obviously not in the coffin.

Cameron: [cracks up] I don't think so! I don't think Bethany was wearing the sweater!

Deepa: So where do they get – so, okay, so they have the video and that's where they realize about the sweater. Okay. And then they find – where do they find this water?

Cameron: I don't know. I think someone says, “That's Toby sweater,” or something, in the video. No?

Deepa: No, I don't think they say it in the video.

Cameron: Well, maybe we're getting to maybe away from our actual…

Deepa: Yeah, I'm sure there was a plot point that I’ve forgotten. But yeah, anyway – no, it does feel very –

Cameron: It just was, like –

Deepa: “Blood on the sweater!”

Cameron: “Blood on the sweater”, like, who cares? Mona loves playing with blood. [Deepa cracks up] She would just, like, have some of everyone's blood lying around in a little cooler.

Deepa: [laughing] It’s true! Yeah. She’s going to make Mike take the blood! [both laugh] Not everyone else’s blood. She’s gonna make Mike take her own blood. You gotta love that plot line.

Cameron: So I'm just like…

Deepa: No, I know, I know. [laughs] Toby! Spencer's outfit when she sees Alex at the beginning of the first episode, when he's in his car and they're kissing? I had a lot of mixed feelings about that outfit.

Cameron: The hat!

Deepa: The hat was bad! The rest of it was okay?

Cameron: The rest of it was, like, pretty cute – a little vest?

Deepa: Yeah! The hat was horrible.

Cameron: That hat did not need to be…

Deepa: Yeah. Is that what you gave worst outfit to, or?

Cameron: Well, I had Spencer's hat. [both laugh] Like, specifically. And I had Aria's earrings. They were like a feather with weird beads around it.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And Aria's plaid dress.

Deepa: Aria's plaid dress was my other one, yeah. Plaid on top of a black long-sleeve top.

Cameron: Gross!

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. So I had both Spencer's and Aria’s. Yeah, I think we can go with two. Yeah. What was your best outfit?

Cameron: I think I struggled with that.

Deepa: Oh!

Cameron: I chose – I chose Mona.

Deepa: Oh, okay.

Cameron: In the first episode.

Deepa: At the party?

Cameron: Before the party. In school inviting people to the party. It's cute. It's just like some pattern-y and one belt. I don't know. I was just, like, not feeling inspired by a lot of these, I guess, because I wanted to give Spencer’s – oh no, I lied. Those were my notes from the first episode. Strike that from the recording. [both laugh]

Deepa: I will not, but we will mentally strike it. [laughs]

Cameron: Spencer's final look in the last episode is a button-down dress that is dark blue. It's very cute. It didn't get a lot of screen time, but yeah.

Deepa: I watched these episodes like a week and a half ago at this point, so I'm not remembering. Okay, okay. You know I usually love Spencer's style when she gets it right. She often gets it very wrong.

Cameron: There's some miscues, some…mishaps.

Deepa: Yeah. So what I have written down – I don't remember what they look like, but I liked both Spencer and Aria's party outfits, apparently.

Cameron: Okay, yeah. Spencer did a good job of the thing she usually does, which is a flowy white top –

Deepa: Right, right, right. Yes.

Cameron: – but this was a good version. Not a weird version.

Deepa: Not a frumpy version!

Cameron: Yeah. 'cause it was kind of – yeah, that was cute.

Deepa: Okay, okay.

Cameron: And I don't remember Aria, so.

Deepa: I think – I am ashamed to say this – I think I also like Ara's fringy green top…

Cameron: …me too.

Deepa: You do like it? Okay, good! I don't think it's my best, but I think it was really cute. Her whole look was like – her hair was really good. But it was a horrible scene.

Cameron: I liked the fringe.

Deepa: I liked the green fringe tank top.

Cameron: Yeah, me too. [both laugh] I know it’s pretty polarizing.

Deepa: I mean, number one, it’s Aria. It starts there.

Cameron: Green fringe.

Deepa: Green fringe! Oh my god. Yeah. Okay. I think I will give it to Spencer's party outfit.

Cameron: It was cute. It was cute.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. But I want to look back at Spencer's dress as well.

Cameron: Yeah. There was another Spencer outfit that I wanted to also enjoy, because it was, you know, a dress that was a nice little pattern – she's gotten into her animal patterns –

Deepa: Yes, she has! That was funny.

Cameron: – with like the cute jacket and nice braid. But the dress had like a frill on the front, like just right off the chest, that was so weird? And it ruined the whole thing! Just like a little…

Deepa: [laughs] Oh, Spencer! She gets in trouble with frills a lot. Frills and ruffles, and once in a while she's going for a kind of…Victorian look? Maybe?

Cameron: That’s true.

Deepa: But, like, not really? So. Do we want to talk about Hanna's fatphobic punishment?

Cameron: What is there to say about it? Like, it blows?

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: It was – I guess – it was weird that Aria was there to support her, I guess? That is not what I would have picked or would – definitely didn't remember that.

Deepa: No, no. We kind of rarely have Aria being an actively supportive friend, like reaching out…being like, “Hey, things seem not okay. What's going on?” Rather than just passively accepting or listening or whatever.

Cameron: Yeah. So, like, in that, maybe that's an Aria Is A thing. [Deepa cracks up] She's watching Hanna –

Deepa: She has to be there, yeah!

Cameron: – eat these cupcakes.

Deepa: It's true. She's at the cupcake place. She could have put the dollar bills in the bathroom. [both laugh]

Cameron: No, but it just felt kind of after school special-y in the way she was responding. “That's so dangerous!”

Deepa: I know, I know.

Cameron: And, like, yes, it's true, but like…I don't know.

Deepa: But that's not the only thing here.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. [sighs] Yeah. Bulimia isn't just a problem because of it being, quote unquote, “bad for your health” in a certain way that we consider health.

Cameron: Aaah!

Deepa: Right?

Cameron: Yeah! So yeah, exactly. And I just like – I guess if we're tracing it back to Ali's pitching of bulimia, she's like, you know, “You don't always have to feel this way,” after Hanna is doing binging. Which is, like, you don't have to feel this way, so you do purging.

Deepa: Right. Right. Exactly.

Cameron: And like…aaaah! That is not the, like…yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. It's not actually about how you feel, it’s about changing the circumstances, in a really – to make you think you –

Cameron: – have control.

Deepa: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. It was a…ugh.

Deepa: It's definitely a cruel one on Mona’s part.

Cameron: Very cruel.

Deepa: It’s particularly aimed at Hanna, obviously, but, like, very much working on Hanna’s vulnerable areas.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. It’s just…ugh. And, like, I mean, again – this is just something every teen drama ever has done – but, like the telling of stories about fatphobia with a thin person, right?

Cameron: With what?

Deepa: With a thin person.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: Right? Like, this is who fatphobia impacts, is this person who is, like – the actor is always conventionally thin, and the character is in, the main parts of the show that we're watching, thin – and then we have fat-suit flashbacks.

Cameron: Yeah. And then that's how we get, like, “Internalized fatphobia is as bad as fatphobia.” [laughs]

Deepa: Exactly. Exactly! Exactly. Yeah, as systemic fatphobia.

Cameron: Yeah. It's, like, actual – yeah.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, 'cause it's just like, well, this is the stories we're getting.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. And also, you can only be – even in the flashback, that can only be a certain level of fatness, right? [laughs]

Cameron: Like not even…

Deepa: Not even.

Cameron: Not even.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. God. Yeah.

Deepa: Horrible. Yeah. I mean, I think – I think most TV shows do this, to be honest, it's not just teen dramas. But teen dramas have a specific thing around it that, I think, gets to what you were saying about the after-school specials stuff, right? Because, like, puberty is a time when you have a lot of stuff around your body, and that makes sense, but – and it is a time when a lot of people develop eating disorders, because of pressure around their body, and, you know. Bleh.

Cameron: Things are changing, and you don't…yeah.

Deepa: Blehhh.

Cameron: Bleh indeed. Yeah, like, like Mona's going to order these cupcakes?

Deepa: I know.

Cameron: Jesus Christ.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Also, just the fact that there has to be this external bullying too. There has to be this group of guys at the next table who, you know, are, like – right?

Cameron: Who are jocks?

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I'm not saying – I mean obviously fatphobic bullying happens. But again, it usually doesn't happen to thin people!

Cameron: It doesn't happen to thin people eating a lot.

Deepa: Eating a lot. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Cameron: [laughing] That’s not usually what fatphobia is.

Deepa: And I guess maybe you were supposed to imagine that, because this is a small town, they all remember when Hanna was fat. But, like, still!

Cameron: I didn't even connect that. I was just like, these jocks are making fun of this beautiful woman eating six cupcakes!

Deepa: It doesn't make any sense at all! They'd be hitting on her!

Cameron: Yeah! I don't know. [laughs]

Deepa: I mean, they might be hitting on her if she was fat, too, and just be secretive about it –

Cameron: Weird about it?

Deepa: Yeah. But still. No. No.

Cameron: [laughs] It was such a weird scene.

Deepa: Such a weird scene. Yeah, we can move on.

Cameron: Okay. [both laugh]

Deepa: I don't know how much there is to say about this, but I did forget that Jenna turns Toby in!

Cameron: Me too.

Deepa: To the fucking cops! Fuck that, Jenna. To “keep him safe”?

Cameron: To “keep him safe”.

Deepa: What the fuck? You also – well, I guess, Jenna – no, Jenna doesn't actually know about abuse by the cops yet. Probably. But she fucking will. She'll get preyed on by a cop. Who probably shows up soon, to be honest.

Cameron: Ew.

Deepa: I don't know when Garrett shows up, but we have to get into N.A.T. Club stuff…fairly soon.

Cameron: I guess. Is that like, they go through Ian stuff and find stuff about that?

Deepa: Yeah, but I do think they go through Ian stuff maybe after he's dead, question mark? So yes, he has to die first.

Cameron: Does he, like, die more than one time? [both laugh]

Deepa: Yes!

Cameron: Okay!

Deepa: Yes, He does! I was confused about what you're talking about, and then I remembered. Yes, he dies in the church, I think that's the end of this season. And then he disappears, and then he dies in some barn somewhere.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I just remember there's a horseshoe missing off the – that's a big thing.

Cameron: Hmm. Is that symbolic?

Deepa: Of something? Like A takes a horseshoe. There's a missing horseshoe. I don't know. [both laugh] And he dies in the barn with a suicide note that is fake.

Cameron: That is fake.

Deepa: Yes. So Ian does die twice! [both laugh] So maybe it's between the two deaths!

Cameron: [laughing] They go through his stuff?

Deepa: Well, because they can't prove he's dead, the first time, because he disappears, after they think he's died. So they aren't sure if he's dead.

Cameron: Yeah. But they’re digging.

Deepa: Yeah. So maybe we don't get to N.A.T. Club until the second season. But we do need to meet Garrett at some point soon.

Cameron: Gross.

Deepa: Gross. Fucking Garrett. [starts laughing] I just remembered who the actor who plays Garrett is!

Cameron: Yes! Fucking – [cracks up]

Deepa: [laughing] Listeners, if you never traced this – we didn't track it until our most recent time watching PLL – but the guy who plays Garrett is…what's his name in the movie? Is Paolo?

Cameron: It’s Paolo.

Deepa: – is Paolo in The Lizzie McGuire Movie!

Cameron: It's so funny! [singing] “Hey now, hey now.”

Deepa: [singing] “This is what –” [Cameron joins in] “ – dreams are made of!” [both laugh] He can also come on our show if he agrees that Garrett is horrible.

Cameron: Yeah, for – as long as we get that.

Deepa: And then he can sing for us. [both laugh] I have forgotten his name, but I will look it up before we actually get Garrett, considering we haven't gotten Garrett yet!

Cameron: I stand by – just, like, we will accept any actor except for Ezra.

Deepa: I think they do have to admit that – like I think the cops do have to admit that they're bad guys.

Cameron: Yes, yes.

Deepa: But I think most of them would.

Cameron: Yeah, and I want to hear if they have some analysis about that.

Deepa: Exactly. Yeah. But no Ezra.

Cameron: No Ezra!

Deepa: No fucking Ezra, I'm sorry, whatever your name is –

Cameron: Ian Harding. Sorry.

Deepa: Ian Harding, yeah. Fuck you. [both laugh] Why do you still have shows that still sometimes pop up on Hulu?

Cameron: That's, like, personally offensive. [both laugh]

Deepa: We also will not allow I. Marlene King on the show, I'm sorry, fuck her.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Nope.

Cameron: Put us through too much. Too much.

Deepa: Yes. But Paolo – [cracks up again]

Cameron: [laughing] Paolo, come on. We'll get your actual name soon.

Deepa: Yes, we will, we will. We promise. [laughs] Sorry, we haven't gotten Garrett yet, but that just hit me. Because it's amazing.

Cameron: [laughing] This is a segue…moving somewhere else.

Deepa: Yes, move us on.

Cameron: It's not a segue, I'm just gonna say things. But I have a quote! Back to, like, Ali lying about being with her grandmother, and Spencer was like, “Ali hated old people.” [both crack up] So obviously she would have been glowing and, like, giggly and excited after spending that with her grandmother. And I just thought that was so funny!

Deepa: [laughing] Alison! She's so funny! And yeah. Yeah. “Ali hated old people.” “Ali would never be so tacky.” It's just all in the same vein.

Cameron: She disappeared when she was like, what? Fourteen? Of course you're gonna be this weird caricature of a person.

Deepa: Well, that's a thing to show eventually does give her interiority, and I'm very glad that they do. And I remember – I'm gonna try to look up this essay at some point, because I remember reading it. probably the first time we watched PLL, and I sent it to you – but it's an essay about the Dead Girl trope.

Cameron: Oh, I love that one, yeah.

Deepa: And it was written before Ali comes back. So it's comparing it to Twin Peaks and other shows and like Veronica Mars, I think, or you know, other shows that have this dead girl victim who is defining the entire show, but that we never really see as her own person. And I really want to reread that and think about how it's completely subverted by Ali actually being alive, because those other shows don't do – I mean, they don't do that in the same way, at least, right?

Cameron: No, they're not alive. And their whole interiority was they were fucking everyone. That's like the whole thing you uncover is these, like, teens were having sex with the whole town.

Deepa: Yep. Yep. Which is basically true for Ali too, but they ultimately get to let her tell that story herself, rather than other people. When you're piecing together everything that happened that night, you get a lot of the pieces from other people before you get it from Ali, but you finally get it from Ali.

Cameron: That's true. So yeah, with the Laura Palmer and the Veronica's best friend, Lily, it's just, “They were fucking crazy party sluts!”

Deepa: Right, Who were teenagers, right? Laura Palmer’s also a teenager?

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: I have not watched Twin Peaks. I've watched a little bit of Veronica Mars with Cameron, a handful of episodes, but not enough to know it.

Cameron: Yeah, I love some things about Veronica Mars, but it's so problematic and we don't have time to get into that right now.

Deepa: Sure, sure. [both laugh] But yeah, I'll dig up that essay and spend thinking about it.

Cameron: It's so interesting.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. But that is one thing I love about PLL. Ali is this caricature figure. And we see her so differently through different people's eyes. We see her so differently in her scenes with – and I think it's cool, because it's partially that she acts differently with Emily, but I think we're also – I think filming-wise, we're getting Emily's perspective on her as much as we're getting her behavior being different.

Cameron: Totally. Yeah.

Deepa: Which I kind of love. Because she's so different. And also Sasha Pieterse is just such a good actress.

Cameron: She's such a good actress.

Deepa: She's so young!

Cameron: It's just – it's all very impressive.

Deepa: I did look up their ages – all of the others are in their twenties. Like I thought maybe Ashley Benson was like nineteen, but I think even she was twenty-one when they started this. And they’re just acting with like this thirteen-year-old who's like acting her socks off. And in a way where she's like – she's a threatening figure to them, right? [laughs] It's extremely impressive.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I do want to say that, unfortunately, I was wrong with my prediction that Caleb shows up in episode 12.

Cameron: Womp womp.

Deepa: [sighs] Or 13.

Cameron: Again, womp womp.

Deepa: I think it's now episode 15, because episode 14 has to be the dance-off – dance-a-thon where Hanna gets the rest of the money.

Cameron: So annoying.

Deepa: Because I'd forgotten why the dance of thumb is a thing and it's because she gets more money every time she dances with Lucas.

Cameron: You forgot about that?

Deepa: Well, I just forgot what the mechanism was for why she's dancing.

Cameron: Oh, number of dances equals money?

Deepa: I just forgot the money part. I knew that A was forcing her to dance with Lucas, but I didn't know if it was blackmail or something else, but it was money.

Cameron: Nope, lasagna money.

Deepa: Gotta get it back. Gotta dance with Lucas. Dreading that episode.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But! I think, like, if Caleb shows up in the next one after that, then we'll pair those two, hopefully. [both laugh]

Cameron: If Lucas didn't behave the way he behaved in the party episode, I would maybe feel bad for him in the dance-a-thon.

Deepa: Yes. Yes.

Cameron: But I can't. I don't have it in me. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I would feel a little bad for him. I would still feel like – I mean, we can talk about this when we get to the episode, but I feel like he could also do something here, right? Like he could refuse to dance with Hanna if he didn't want to and if he didn't feel like, you know. He has some agency here. The only way he's using his agency is to be a dick right now. [both laugh] Yeah. But at least we get rid of Sean soon.

Cameron: That's great. He's just such a dud.

Deepa: He's such a dud. What is he even – like what's the story that he's telling at the party?

Cameron: Just wearing a silly cardigan.

Deepa: Just so bro-y. So bro-y.

Cameron: Yeah, like I – yeah.

Deepa: And it's just – I mean, I think what's interesting about when Caleb arrives is the whole narrative around Lucas, and Lucas hating Hanna's boyfriend falls apart, right? Because it's no longer this trope.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It's no longer this, like, “Oh, she could do better than the brainless jock, like the guy who really loves her –”

Cameron: “– is Caleb!” [both crack up]

Deepa: Exactly! And Lucas has to accept that. And it's kind of funny, because, like – Caleb just isn't all those things, and you can't pin him into that. So he just becomes friends with him instead!

Cameron: So they just have to be friends!

Deepa: And, like, lets him live with him! [both laugh] Also, Caleb has such, like, bigger problems than this love triangle.

Cameron: Yeah, for real!

Deepa: So when he doesn't have a home, like, Lucas steps up. Just all the priorities shift when Caleb shows up, and it's for the best.

Cameron: For the best. I'm so excited.

Deepa: So excited. Ugh. I know. Alex left, so now Caleb has to show up.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Ugh, Maya also.

Cameron: It's so upsetting. Just like – Pam is the catalyst for all this, like – because it's her eventual death.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. All the violence against Maya.

Cameron: Yeah. And I don't know – she doesn't feel like – I just don't know how you…

Deepa: Live with that?

Cameron: I don't know. Yeah, like I just don't – does she feel bad about that?

Deepa: I think she eventually feels bad in this sense of realizing that she's been homophobic. But that's not the whole thing.

Cameron: That's not the whole thing.

Deepa: Yeah. So I think she feels – because she and Maya do make up when she gets back, I'm pretty sure.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: I think. And, like, she's okay with it. But there's just so much there that they don't ever address, in my memory.

Cameron: I feel like she gets okay with it when Emily dates that one blond, white girl who's not Ali.

Deepa: Yes, yes, who's not Paige or Ali.

Cameron: Who’s not Paige or Ali.

Deepa: Well, no, you know when Pam starts to be okay with it?

Cameron: Because of Nick McCullers?

Deepa: Yeah, exactly.

Cameron: To be a better parent?

Deepa: To be a better parent than Nick McCullers.

Cameron: Ugh, what a low bar.

Deepa: What a fucking low bar! Oh, I hate that scene on so many levels, because Ezra gets to be a hero,  Pam gets to have a turnaround because of her child…but yeah, I think that's the first girlfriend that she accepts.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And then she just, like, automatically accepts Maya back – but it's not on to her to accept Maya back, that's the fucking thing.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: I don't think we get any stated remorse outside of, “I'm sorry that I was homophobic,” you know what I mean? I don't think we get stated remorse on, like, the impacts on Maya of this whole thing.

Cameron: Yeah. Or, like, even to Emily after Maya's death, right? Like I don't know if we get…yeah.

Deepa: Well, I think it just all gets so drawn out, right? Because we don't know who killed Maya for so long, and we assume it has to do with A stuff.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So Emily isn't looking to True North as the – right?

Cameron: I guess that's true. Yeah.

Deepa: I mean, she should because we get hints of it. Maya talks about him.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I’ve forgotten his actual name.

Cameron: I can't remember.

Deepa: His fake name is Nate, right? Or is that his real name?

Cameron: I don't know. [both laugh] I think his fake name is Nate.

Deepa: Yeah, I can't remember his real name. James? Or is his last name James?

Cameron: I don't know.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: Yeah. It just sucks so hard. And it's, like, hard to talk about, you know, in a way that feels…I don't know. Yeah, like what – you know?

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the thing, is that this show is not going to trace all of those – trace all of those threads on to – they put it out for us, but they're not going to make the connections in a way that makes it extremely clear that this is anti-Black, right? Like even – I mean, we're going to get to this – but even Nate being Black, and, like, being this aggressor in this role, and the way that we get Black characters either as – like I think Eddie Lamb is the exception. Every other Black character is either a victim or a perpetrator or both, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Because they either die, or they are put in this role, or both, like with Nate. And, like, Eddie Lamb is the main one who plays a different role.

Cameron: So just like – yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. So in a way it’s, like, kind of – there's something weird there about Original Sin bringing him back because he's the only one, right? And the way that they bring him back and age him up, it's so weird.

Cameron: So weird.

Deepa: Yeah, I don't think there are other…Shana. Fucking Shana. Yeah. Sorry, not fucking Shana, fucking what happens to Shana. Shana's storyline. We love Shana.

Cameron: Fuck you, Aria.

Deepa: Fuck you, Aria. Like fuck all of them for, like, not accepting that her caring about Jenna is valid, right?

Cameron: Right!

Deepa: Like of course she's angry at them! Yeah, she, quote unquote, “betrayed Ali” – yeah, because Ali did this!

Cameron: Ali was the cause of this! Yeah.

Deepa: Anyway, we're getting way ahead of ourselves.

Cameron: We are. Sorry.

Deepa: But. I mean, it's good also to make these connections early on. It's – you know, there's going to be more to talk about when we get to it.

Cameron: Mhm. [pauses] Can we not end on this?

Deepa: I don't know! Do you have anything more?

Cameron: Can we end on something haha? A little teehee?

Deepa: We can try, but I'm pretty through my notes, so you might have to come up with something.

Cameron: Okay, one second. Shit shit shit. Okay, sure. So, going back to Ashley. When Ashley is explaining to Hanna the situation around her unauthorized loan – hilarious language, and framing – you know, Hanna is like, “Okay, so you stole money from the bank, isn't that like a felony?” [Deepa starts clapping with laughter] And Ashley says, “It's only a felony if they find out.” Incredible! [both crack up] So they just like. Yeah.

Deepa: That's another thesis for the show. They do lots of things that are felonies, but as long as no one finds out, it’s fine. Oh my god, Ashley. I love her!

Cameron: Just chaos!

Deepa: Chaos. Chaos. [laughing] Oh man. Yeah. You know what I don't think we ever get an answer on? So the way this resolves, right, is that –

Cameron: – she dies?

Deepa: Who?

Cameron: Mrs. Potter?

Deepa: Well, yes, Mrs. Potter –  okay, sorry, yes, Mrs. Potter dies. Yes. But then we get her fake nephew.

Cameron: Oh yeah, we do. With the fake pen.

Deepa: With the fake pen, that Caleb figures out? Yeah, 'cause he's not an architect or something?

Cameron: Architects don't use cheap pens.

Deepa: Architects love pens. Thanks, Caleb. Very smart.

Cameron: He’s actually very helpful.

Deepa: Caleb is so helpful! After that – like what does the bank do with the safety deposit – oh oh oh no, I guess the point is he does look at the safety deposit box, and he does take what's in it, but it's not money, and he doesn't challenge that that. Okay. Okay. Because it's the only Ashley who knows what's in the safety deposit box.

Cameron: Yeah, no one else knows.

Deepa: Okay, the rest of the bank doesn't –

Cameron: Yeah, the bank doesn't know.

Deepa: Great. Sorry. I figured that out as I was talking about it.

Cameron: Yeah. It's actually fine, apparently.

Deepa: It’s actually fine. Ashley is actually correct! As long as no one finds out, it's fine. [both laugh] Ashley! I love you! Oh my god. Yeah, definitely best parent.

Cameron: Hundred percent. [both laugh] With that, should we move on to the last segment of our podcast?

Deepa: Yes, for sure! So we decided to – since I am here in person with Cameron, and I also haven't, like, cooked anything in, like, a year since I got long COVID – we decided to cook a chickpea recipe to see if we wanted to recommend it to you all.

Cameron: It’s very exciting.

Deepa: And – we do!

Cameron: We do! [both laugh]

Deepa: Do you want to describe it?

Cameron: Oh god, what was it called?

Deepa: So we got it from Serious Eats. It's called, like, braised chickpeas with couscous something. Moroccan braised chickpeas with couscous and harissa.

Cameron: There were a lot of nice chopped vegetables. A lot of mint, cilantro, throw it all together.

Deepa: Serve it with the harissa yogurt.

Cameron: And a fried egg!

Deepa: And a fried egg on top! It was delicious.

Cameron: It was really nice.

Deepa: Very – it was very summery. It was hot to make it in front of the stove.

Cameron: Yeah, we were trying to find something that wasn't, like, a soup. Or a stew. [both laugh]

Deepa: A lot of chickpea recipes are stews.

Cameron: But yeah, it was delicious. Would recommend.

Deepa: Yes. We'll link it in the show notes, to the Serious Eats article. My only thing is that I would add more salt than they said. [laughs] Put a lot more salt. Oh, and it says it's six servings and we would say more like four, maybe? But. It was delicious. Yeah, so that's our joint chickpea recipe.

Cameron: It's really exciting.

Deepa: Yes. Are you gonna add it to the book?

Cameron: I'm not gonna write in the book.

Deepa: The whole point is you have pages to write in the book.

Cameron: I’m supposed to write in the book?

Deepa: If you want to!

Cameron: Fuck, I didn't know that.

Deepa: That's why there's extra pages! Otherwise I would have just made a bookbinding myself.

Cameron: I never thought about that.

Deepa: You never thought about it? [laughs] I think there's also why I left space between the table of contents and the first recipe, so that you could add more table of contents.

Cameron: God, no, I just – I don't know what I thought. [Deepa laughing] Wow.

Deepa: I bet there's other recipes we've even made in the last few years that you could add, other chickpea recipes that aren't in there. So you should consider that.

Cameron: This is mind-blowing.

Deepa: Do you want me to add it for you?

Cameron: Your handwriting is much better, but, like, that’s –

Deepa: [laughs] I'm certain that my handwriting has gotten worse since 2015 when I made that book. [laughs] Most of it is typed, anyway! I can type it up, I can type it up.

Cameron: Okay, well, that's neither here nor there. [laughs]

Deepa: I just think we have to keep Don't Forget the Chickpeas updated, especially when we're sharing things on Don’t Forget the Chickpeas, the podcast. Then they should translate to the recipe book.

Cameron: Yeah, that's good, it's like a self-referencing loop over and over. [both laugh]

Deepa: Well, I think that's all we have for today.

Cameron: Yeah. Do you want to sign off? Do you want me to sign off? Should we say it at the same time?

Deepa: We can say it this time, since we're both here!

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay. Three, two...[Cameron laughs] what? Why are you laughing?

Cameron: It's funny! It's fine, it's fine.

Deepa: Okay. Three, two, one.

Cameron & Deepa: Act normal, bitches!