Episodes 1.08 & 1.09: "You Should Never Disappoint a Ghost"

In today's episode we cover PLL episodes 1.08, “Please Do Talk About Me When I’m Gone”, and 1.09, “The Perfect Storm.” We discuss the SATs, gender in high school and the show's horrible intersexism, Alison's gay literary references, people needing to eat food, completely unrelated musicals, and jewelry in coffins. We attempt to play High/Low and spend way too much time trying to remember future plot points. We hope you find this charming and not annoying.

Episode Transcript: Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpea Recipe: We’re not writing it up because we discuss it in the episode and it’s incredibly simple! Just, hot tip: don’t microwave cans.

Fashion Analysis: We were lukewarm on outfits overall, and also disagreed a bit, but here are our best and worst!

Cameron Gets Academic On Us:

• CJ Pascoe’s book, Dude, You’re a Fag
• Da’Shaun Harrison talking about “the residue” in the context of thin people and fatphobia
  • They also have an awesome book, Belly of the Beast, and are part of the amazing podcast Unsolicited: Fatties Talk Back!

Things We Referenced Actually Related to PLL: 

• Ravenswood! The best PLL spin off 
• Vivian Darkbloom - Ali’s alter ego in a brown wig
  • Deepa didn’t have real literary analysis in this episode, so Deepa will just mention here that Vivian Darkbloom is an anagram of “Vladimir Nabokov”, lol
• Glee actors who show up in PLL:
  • Oliver Kieran-Jones, who plays Adam on Glee (Kurt’s New York boyfriend) and Colin on PLL (the guy Spencer sleeps with once in London)
  • Adam Lambert (does he even need introduction?), who plays Starchild on Glee and himself in the best PLL episode of all time

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL: 

• How everyone confides in the Taylors in Friday Night Lights and it’s not weird, it’s just weird when it’s Ezra
• How we constantly get the musicals Be More Chill and Dear Evan Hansen mixed up
  • Someone thinks that Be More Chill is just Dear Evan Hansen on helium!
  • And some thoughts on gender in both musicals 

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to help Rozan and Aboud, two young people in Gaza, to survive and rebuild their lives with their families. You can donate to their GoFundMe.

Transcript

Content note for mention of the f slur, in the context of a queer theory text on toxic masculinity.

Deepa: Welcome back to Don't Forget the Chickpeas, your favorite Pretty Little Liars podcast. I’m Deepa.

Cameron: I'm Cameron.

Deepa: And I think today we were gonna start off with High/Low.

Cameron: Oh fuck! I forgot.

Deepa: We do not have to, but –

Cameron: No, let's play. Let's play. I totally forgot. Do you have one ready to go?

Deepa: Do I? That's a great question. I definitely have a high. Like my high was definitely Emily and Maya’s date. Just so good. I mean, also, just all of their – especially in that first episode. Oh, yeah, the episodes we are talking about today! Oh god, I don't even remember.

Cameron: Yes. We have episode 8, “Please Do Talk About Me When I'm Gone”.

Deepa: Great.

Cameron: And episode 9, “The Perfect Storm”.

Deepa: “The Perfect Storm”. Yeah, these are episodes with a lot of good stuff in them. But yeah, in episode 8, Emily and Maya being cute at school, Maya feeding her orange slices, Emily asking her on a date, going on the date – everything about it was perfect. So we can talk about it more, but I think that's my high. Do you have a high?

Cameron:  I mean, I think you took the best high.

Deepa: Sorry. It’s a competition, right?

Cameron: So I will go with just like Spencer being in like a cute relationship. There’s not even real drama about it. When they ask her about it, she's just like –

Deepa: Yeah, it’s really nice! Cameron made the exact face that Troian makes. Which is perfect.

Cameron: I just, like, found that touching.

Deepa: Also, very relatable! I feel like when you're in a relationship and things are going well, you don't necessarily know how to talk about it. You're just like, “Yeah, it's great. I don't know!” Just happy.

Cameron: Yeah, because you like don't necessarily need to like process something.

Deepa: Exactly. Yeah. Or you're just like happy about things that other people wouldn't find interesting, and you kind of know that, right?

Cameron: Yeah, like, boring.

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. In a good way. But, like, Spencer is aware of it, unlike the other people in boring relationships that are not actually good relationships.

Cameron: Ummm, speaking of lows… Ezra emerging from the rain, like a wet dog.

Deepa: Like a wet dog, standing dramatically in the doorway. God. Like I know partially this is Aria being like “I need to talk to Mr. Fitz”, but like there were so many better ways to handle that that wouldn't have gotten Noel Kahn suspicious, right? Which, nothing happens with that yet, but like he’s not even – like he was trying to be threatening instead of trying to be discreet, which at this point is not a smart idea Ezra. And fucked up.

Cameron: And fucked up. I hate that man. I just – hmm. Do you have another low?

Deepa: I do. I do. And this is something we didn't talk about at the beginning when we talked about stuff we hate, because it only shows up in very specific contexts, but: the intersexism from Mona to Lucas. And I think – I was trying to think about why that didn't come up for me in the beginning. I think it's not just that it's only a little bit of – you know, we only hear it a few times – but it's that weird thing of, like, Lucas isn't actually intersex, but is still affected by intersexism because of the way that Mona weaponizes it, and how Alison weaponized it in that flashback. So it's really shitty, and also one of those things where you're like – I don't know, PLL is not – I guess, PLL is not aware of a lot of the bigotry that they perpetrate. But they're, like, really not like trying to make a statement about like intersex people not – you know, needing to be respected. They're just using that – you know what I mean? – as a way to indicate that Lucas is this Other, and at the bottom of the social chain, or whatever. Right? So you know, yeah.

Cameron: Booo!

Deepa: I don't know that there's a ton of say about it, honestly. It's super gross.

Cameron: It's so much in that, in this episode. I don't know if it was in both. Was it both?

Deepa: It was both. Because the first one has a flashback where Alison is, yeah, intersexist, so. And then that translates to Mona.

Cameron: Just – yeah, I was like, what?

Deepa: Yeah? Yeah. And it's just…yeah. I don't know. It feels like – because it feels like the show knows that it's wrong, but not why it's wrong. The show thinks it's wrong because it's bullying. It is bullying, but there's more than that to it. And I just don't think they care. And I think, like, if we didn't know the levels of transphobia and transmisogyny that they were going to get to, then it would have maybe a different impact, too. But we do know, right? And we do – they're already being weird about gender and sex with Lucas and with A. So –

Cameron: There’s – sorry to get academic on us, but – 

Deepa: Please get academic on us!

Cameron: There’s this really great book by a sociologist, CJ Pascoe, called Dude, You’re a Fag, and it's about how slurs specifically about sexuality are, like bonding – like how teenage boys – it's about, like, masculinity in high school, kind of. And it's about like, how teenage boys create bonds –

Deepa: Over perpetuating those – using those slurs?

Cameron: Yeah. And like, it's how you just kind of navigate your social world and stuff. And just like…I mean, that's specifically about like masculinity, and specifically the “F slur”. But like, yeah. I think that's interesting to just extrapolate and think about other high school scenarios. Like these are mostly like girls talking about – and policing – this boy that's like not masculine enough. Yeah. It’s very interesting.

Deepa: Yeah, it is. It is, yeah, because PLL is so much about bullying and harassment from the perspective of like gender and femininity. Right? About the whole “mean girl” idea, and how that plays out and, like, I'm sure there are parallels with how you think about that, and how you think about how toxic masculinity functions in a similar way. So. Interesting. Please always get academic. I love it.

Cameron: I was just basically reading a book about how like the gender binary and our insistence on enforcing that hurts us all. I mean, some more than others. But yeah, it's just yeah. Yeah. So. [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh, that did remind me of a of an interesting thing I saw someone on Twitter say recently, which was – I've been struggling how to talk about – I mean, I've said this a few times already, not very eloquently, but how to talk about intersexism when Lucas is not intersex. And I think this, like – this idea that the gender binary and all these perceptions that we have affects us all, but in different ways, I think, was put really well by a friend of mine who was talking about how – someone else was talking about how cis women are also impacted by transmisogyny if they get mistaken for being trans women. And they're – so they were using that to push against the idea of using the term “transmisogyny affected” or “transmisogyny exempt”, which was not great. Right? Like they were trying to say, “No, I'm TMA as well, because I'm affected by transmisogyny, because I as a cis woman can be mistaken for a trans woman.” Which is bullshit. [both laugh]

Cameron: No, that's not that great.

Deepa: But one of my friends put it really well of, like, “No, you being impacted by that is an impact of transmisogyny, but it's not transmisogyny itself, right? It's, like, a byproduct.

Cameron: Oh, Da’Shaun Harrison calls it the “residue” of, like, something wears off on other people. Right? So it's like, yeah. You also get the residue of that. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But you're still in this protected category of not actually having that lived experience and not actually – like, getting to escape that, in a lot of contexts. Because, yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, starting off with a – [laughs] something.

Deepa: There is a lot of interesting stuff in these two episodes. I don't know. Can we go back to Emily and Maya, because we didn't spend as much time on them as we could?

Cameron: Yeah, because we weren't complaining!

Deepa: Because we weren’t complaining! Because we weren’t hating!

Cameron: It's so cute – like, when Emily asks Maya if she would like to go have a meal and maybe see a movie, then Maya is like, “Is that like a date?”

Deepa: “I think they call that a date!” I was thinking in that scene that this is actually the acting that Shay excels at regardless of acting skill? Because her acting skill is not very good, but she's still convincing. She's convincing as, like, a teenager who's giddy and excited and a little awkward about being in a relationship, you know? So it really works for me as far as Shay’s acting goes, even though she has a lot more maturing to do in terms of skill. Yeah. Yeah. I do wonder again why everyone in this town watches black and white movies, but I don't mind it as much if it’s Emily and Maya.

Cameron: No, I wasn't upset about it. [both laugh]

Deepa: Because they were mostly holding hands and making out.

Cameron: Oh, and Emily wore the scarf!

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. This is just like the best part of their relationship. I mean, they have other good parts, too, but, you know, where they get to be happy for a while.

Cameron: Oh my god! When – I think right after that happened, Pam called, and I was like, did she sense some lesbianism and want to shut it down?

Deepa: I don't know, though, right, because Pam did not sense lesbianism when they were spooning in bed!

Cameron: No, I don't think she has any idea.

Deepa: We did get a mention of Wayne, who is arriving, and I think it's safe to say you and I have mixed feelings about Wayne, because he is unequivocally the best, dad, and not only the best dad, but, like, the others are terrible.

Cameron: It's no comparison.

Deepa:  But he’s also army, so. [laughs]

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: Aaaah! [both laugh] I just – I find it really frustrating that the main character of color has to come from a military family, and it's the same thing of, like – PLL doesn't do this a ton, but a lot of shows that like focus on black cops and, like, usually have the  – even if the main – like a lot of cop shows, right, have the main characters as white, but then their superintendent or their chief or whoever's right above them is a black cop, right? And it's very much this attempt to beat out all this other negativity that you would associate? And I definitely feel like there's that with Wayne, where, as an immigrant family, he's like – they're, like, "proving" their Americanness by both him being in the military and by this perfect family suburban middle class facade thing, right? Like, that's how they fit into this – even though they're not white – into this like sea of whiteness.

Cameron: Yeah. And like Pam works for the cops.

Deepa:  Pam eventually works for the cops, which is also fucked up. Yeah.

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: We don't, like, get a ton of story about Wayne in military, but, I mean, we do get a bit. He's in Afghanistan, right? Yeah. But we don't get like a ton about it, but I just feel like it builds – it's the character of Emily's family, and the Fieldses, in a way that really bothers me.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: That's what's like legitimizing them. Right? But also, like, someone needs a good dad.

Cameron: One person!

Deepa: Who doesn't even make it to the end of the show.

Cameron: Yeah, it is upsetting that he dies.

Deepa: In the time skip, too, you know. So it's just like an afterthought, almost.

Cameron: Does he die in army?

Deepa: No, I don't think so, I think he has –

Cameron: He just like has a health thing?

Deepa: Yeah. Because I remember at some point, he has a health thing too. Remember when – whenever it is – you know what I'm talking about, whenever he has to rescue Emily from the school –

Cameron: He, like, has a –

Deepa: – heart thing, maybe? He, like, climbs a trellis –

Cameron: – to rescue his daughter from A!

Deepa: Exactly. But I don't remember if that's what it's supposed to have killed him.

Cameron: Yeah. The only father we get in this is Byron.

Deepa: Fucking Byron.

Cameron: What a just, like, sad sack. “Oh man, Ella's moved out, and I just can't do anything.”

Deepa: “I don't know how to deal with all this stuff because Ella did it. I don't know how to figure out what to eat at a restaurant because Ella would tell me.” What the fuck?

Cameron: That's embarrassing. Asking Ashley out on dates, like –

Deepa: So weird. So weird. I was annoyed at Ashley for that too.

Cameron: I, yeah, I couldn't give her a best parent.

Deepa: No, no.

Cameron: Because she's co-signing whatever the fuck that is.

Deepa: She's just like, “Yeah. Marriages are complicated.” I don't know if that's true, Ashley, because – I don't know if we know this – did Ashley also get cheated on, or just get left and then he found someone else?

Cameron: I think she just got left, right?

Deepa: Okay, I can't remember. Either way, though, there's like – there are some parallels there, and you're on the wrong side of it. Or I guess you're not taking sides. But we never see you talk to Ella about it!

Cameron: Yeah, by saying that you're not taking sides, it's like, hmm, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. Eww, Byron. I did give Byron worst parent.

Cameron: Obviously. He fucking sucked. He’s just like – inept, complaining...

Deepa: So much time that we have to spend on him and his fax.

Cameron: Just…I don't know.

Deepa: There's a tornado happening, and all the kids are trapped at school. But you're just like whining about how you can't get a fax.

Cameron: Maybe it can wait, if the power is out? I don't understand. I don't think Mike's at a lacrosse tournament right now in the tornado.

Deepa: I think he is out of town. That's why it matters.

Cameron: Oh.

Deepa: Mike's always at lacrosse. [laughs] Oh man.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: We did get a couple of new characters in the first episode, the memorial episode.

Cameron: We did! We got not-lesbian Jason.

Deepa: We got business/politician Jason. Like, at one point, Spencer refers to him –

Cameron: Smarmy!

Deepa: And Spencer's like, “Yeah. He seemed like he was running for office.” And that was perfect.

Cameron: The way he was talking was so weird. Just, like…? [both]

Deepa: I feel like it's rare that – at least when I've watched a show where the first actor who plays a character – that then changes actors – isn't the one I associate, right? Like usually I get attached to the first one, even if I don't like them, right? But I have more familiarity with them. And then I'm like, “Oh, the second one is a weird imitation.” But no, not with Jason. This one is so different.

Cameron: This one is not here for that long, right? Maybe I'm making that up.

Deepa: No, I think you're right. I think it's just some episodes in the first season. But he's also just so different that it's almost like –

Cameron: They’re different people. Yeah.

Deepa: I do kind of find this Jason interesting on his own. Like his whole – I think his whole interaction with like the cops and Wilden was interesting, because it is not how other Jason would handle it. But he was like very savvy about it, right? Like he worked Wilden over to giving him information about the case that he should not be giving. So I enjoyed that.

Cameron: His interactions with Spencer were weirder, though. Like playing weird power games, like, you know.

Deepa: Wait, Jason – wait, wait. Jason at this point knows that Spencer is his sister, doesn't he? When does – I think – okay, when does Jason find out that Peter’s his dad?

Cameron: Great question.

Deepa: I think it might –

Cameron: You think that's informing this?

Deepa: Probably not, because I don't think the show will have figured it out yet, but. I like to think about – it would be interesting if technically it was.

Cameron: Damn.

Deepa: I was thinking about it in their interactions – I was just thinking, but more from a, like, haha, this is so funny. That's your sibling. I feel like he finds out – I feel like he has to find out before Alison disappears, because it's like potentially a motive for her murder from him. Like she found out, right? She found out, and was like tormenting him with it? Something about finding letters in their grandmother's house.

Cameron:  There's always letters in the grandmother’s house. Or it's the bird, who knows? [both laugh]

Deepa: We are a long way from Tippi the bird, but I am excited!

Cameron: Me, too. Yeah, okay. So we don't know when Jason knows, but maybe he knows now, is what you’re saying?

Deepa: I think that he knows now. I don't think the show is yet writing him that way, because I don't think that they figured out that plot line. But I still think we can analyze it, because we can. So I think we can say that the power play comes slightly from that.

Cameron: So weird.

Deepa: Which makes it weirder!

Cameron: Which makes it so much weirder. She's like, “You're just like Alison.” And he's like, “Actually, I'm worse.”

Deepa: Oh my god! I almost spit out – I almost just spit out water.

Cameron: Yeah. And like, of course, the parents can't show up to the memorial.

Deepa: No, of course they can’t. What? Yeah. I mean to be fair, the DiLaurentises rarely show up for anything until they do. But even then, like, Ken doesn't show up for things, and Jessica does for a while. They’re a mess. Again, weird though, that none of the other Liars’ parents came for the memorial? They, like, just don't come to support their daughters at these things.

Cameron: Wild.

Deepa: So, like, if my friend died, my parents would be helping like – I've had a friend die, and my parents were like helping organize the memorial for her, right? Like someone my age. And that wasn't even when I was a teenager, that was when I was in my twenties.

Cameron: It’s, like, basic shit. Like showing up if your kid is, like, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, they have to, like, speak about her.

Deepa: Exactly. They organized all of that.

Cameron: They organized it. They, like – the only fucking person who was there was fucking Ian.

Deepa: Fucking Ian! Who is the other person, yes, the other person who shows up in this episode and does not get a lot of time. But just – it is kind of funny how separate these two episodes are. I wonder if they were originally supposed to be aired in a different order, because we get a lot of things in the memorial episode, and then don't talk about them in the storm episode. Like Ian showing up, you know, I don't think they even talk about it.

Cameron: We didn't talk about Ian in that episode. It was just like “What? Ian?”

Deepa: “Melissa’s Ian?” Bleh, Ian.

Cameron: Gross.

Deepa: So gross.

Cameron: If I – never mind, we don’t need to say that! I was just going to say if I as an adult was being inappropriate with a child –

Deepa: Yes?

Cameron: – like, doing whatever they were doing – probably not having sex, because the show likes to make that distinction –

Deepa: They absolutely do. Neither Ezra nor Ian ever had sex with Alison…so it's okay?

Cameron:  So it's okay. But, like, if I did that as an adult, and then I go to their – and then that person dies, I go to the memorial service? What?

Deepa: Unexpectedly, from out of town?

Cameron:  I just make an appearance?

Deepa: No, it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. Also, I think my theory about these episodes being in a different order is wrong, because we do get the beginning of the Alison/Ian video at the end of the library episode.

Cameron:  We did.

Deepa: Yes, with the first “I know you want to kiss me”.

Cameron: “I know you want to kiss me”!

Deepa: We're gonna see that so many times. I think it feels like she says it to more people because we're going to see it a million times from that one video, but I think she only says it to Ian and Toby.

Cameron: Oh my god! I loved her talking to Emily about the Kissing Rock.

Deepa: Oh my god! There was so much good Alison and Emily again these episodes! Yes, the Kissing Rock was really good.

Cameron: Where she was just – you could just like, “You can feel the ghosts of the other lovers that have been there. And you don't want to disappoint ghosts.”

Deepa: You gotta make out. I literally have “you should never disappoint a ghost” written in my notes. It's a great line. Also has Ali been to Ravenswood?

Cameron: That was my first thought. I was like, ooh, are we talking about curses here?

Deepa: Big twist!

Cameron: Vivian has probably been to Ravenswood.

Deepa: You're right. You're right. Yeah. Well, we do get Red Coat at some point in Ravenswood. So yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah. Because they have – yeah, that's where Mrs. Grunwald is.

Cameron: Mrs. Grunwald and the sorority house!

Deepa: I don't like the sorority house is in Ravenswood. I think Grunwald moves to Ravenswood after retiring as sorority house mother? Because then she has to go be in a mortuary.

Cameron: Sure, that is the pipeline.

Deepa: Sorority to mortuary pipeline.

Cameron: No one's saying it. But –

Deepa: Is a sorority mother even a thing? I mean, presumably there's an adult somewhere? But maybe not though, it’s college. Why would you need another adult when they are all adults?

Cameron: I think we need an expert to answer that question.

Deepa: You are more of an expert than I am! You had sororities at your school.

Cameron: That's true.

Deepa: I don't know who else we know that would be an expert.

Cameron: We know a couple of people.

Deepa: Do we? Okay, okay, we'll check in with our experts and get back to you.

Cameron: We'll check in. Yeah, I don't know what that's like as a career path.

Deepa: On the Alison and Emily theme, the library episode obviously is huge. And this – I mean, she just has this – Sasha Pieterse is such a good actress, and she just has – she's really good at having a completely different persona when she is with Emily, even when they're in a crowd like they were in the first episode of the beach flashback. But it's very convincing, and like it does feel more real than her other personas. I didn't do any like real literary analysis this time, so I don't have thoughts on Great Expectations –

Cameron: What? Damn it, Deepa! I was waiting for that.

Deepa: I've never read it! So.

Cameron: Okay, well, me either, so.

Deepa: But I do love the way she reads the passage.

Cameron: Oh my gosh!

Deepa: So flirty!

Cameron: Like, “I loved her without reason”, or “beyond reason. Beyond all these things.” I was like, damn.

Deepa: I, for some reason could remember that first line – from having seen this so many times, not because I have read Great Expectations. Oh my god. My only literary analysis is that they do depart again from their Americana authors, right? Which, the other literary reference they have is about Tom Sawyer. Because, yeah, the memorial, right? And, like, that, it's a different era than the 1920s books. But at least like fits much better with this, you know. So that's my only literary analysis. You've got academic gender analysis. I've got literary analysis sometimes. [both laugh] Oh, this was interesting! Okay, I paused and read the whole letter that Emily writes to Alison.

Cameron:  Oh, you did?

Deepa:  Yes, which I'm glad I did, because I think it was super interesting. Can I read it to you?

Cameron:  Please! Because I was just like – did not at all, so I am curious to hear.

Deepa: I’ve never thought about it before, but I guess because it – this is what happens when I watch it without you, I have other like thoughts that come up other than just talking to you about it in the moment. [laughs] Okay, so the letter reads, “Ali, you may not like what I have to say, but I have to get something off my chest.” Then there's a little cut off. I think it says, “You're not afraid of hurting me, so I wonder why I'm so afraid of hurting you. I am, but that's not enough of a reason to not tell you how I feel, so here goes. Sometimes I feel so close to you, and then something changes – a look in your eyes – and I feel so stupid. It's like you can read every thought in my head, and you find it all so hilarious. Like after we kissed, and I thought it might happen again, and you just laughed in my face. But it's not hilarious to me.” Emily!

Cameron: Emily!

Deepa: “Maybe you think a kiss is just a kiss, and that I'm just practice. But the way you act it feels more like target practice.”

Cameron:  Ooh!

Deepa: That line was – oof. There's a little bit more, but it's some more cut off. “I don't know how you can go from kissing me one minute to hating me the next, except that I'm starting to catch on. I'm starting to understand what it's like to –” and there's a blank, and then there's the word “hate” at some point. But I think it's supposed to be this idea that she, like, hated Alison so she could have killed her, you know? Like –

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But the part I actually found interesting was, and Alison says this too in the locker room scene, was when she says “a kiss is just a kiss”. And I was wondering if, like, that was a weird thing when Maya said it to Emily, and, like Emily, is – right, because, like, it's the same thing that Maya said. And maybe Emily – that informs some of Emily’s like confusion and hurt around Maya.

Cameron: Ohhhhhh!

Deepa: Again, I don't know if the PLL writers are this good, but it would help if they were.

Cameron: [laughs] No, that’s – ohhhh.

Deepa: You know?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It just made me feel a lot more for Emily in her period of confusion about what to do with Maya. Because she still has feelings for Alison, too, but also because of not exactly knowing where they stand, and not knowing if even Maya wants to, like, commit to this. Right?

Cameron: Oh, Emily.

Deepa: Yeah. There is just  –  these two episodes were so gay, I love it.

Cameron: [laughs] I guess do we have to talk about how Wilden forced her to come out?

Deepa: Yeah! I think we do. I think we fucking do.

Cameron: Jesus Christ.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. Everything he did in these episodes was so wild. It's so obviously inappropriate, right?

Cameron: Yes. He's just always there. At their school.

Deepa: Why is he even there during the SATs?

Cameron: During the SATs! [both laugh] It's like a fucking tornado warning, and he, like, can't go home, he won’t go home.

Deepa: Why was he there in the first place? Like did they expect Toby to show up for the SATs? Toby's like, “Gotta run away. But have to get into college!”

Cameron: He's, like, been hiding out studying.

Deepa: Wow, Wilden really doesn't know anything about Toby. [both laugh] Oh my god, yeah, and he's just so eager to give them information about his case that he shouldn't, because there was the whole thing where Jason riled him up, which was very clever on Jason's part. But then in the library – or not the library, the SAT episode – he's lurking in the hallway, and he just interrupts a conversation, that Veronica is having with the person in charge, to tell them about the memorial being destroyed, right? Like I know he wants to question them about it, but it’s still really weird. He’s just, like – he’s not making a statement, he’s just like, “Actually, all those roads are closed, because!” What?

Cameron: Yeah, very… something.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: I did actually give Veronica best parent –

Deepa: Me too!

Cameron: – for fucking yelling at Wilden being like, “What the fuck are you doing? You're questioning these children?” Like just being like, “Absolutely not.”

Deepa: I gave Veronica best parent too. It’s maybe one of the only times we will give Veronica best parent.

Cameron: Yeah, I've forgave her for in the first episode, saying, like “god, I wish I could eat food” or “I missed food” or something.

Deepa: I quoted it because it was so funny. She arrives and immediately says, like, “Your food smells good.” What does she say? Oh, I had it written down because it was funny.

Cameron: She says, “God, I miss food.”

Deepa: And then also she says, “Eat some butter for me!” [both laugh]

Cameron: Yeah. So we forgive her for that.

Deepa: She also, later, after the confrontation with Wilden in the locker room, is obviously really hungry, because she immediately asks for a protein bar.

Cameron: Yes! Eat food. I don't know what to tell you.

Deepa: Just eat food, Veronica. Let your children eat food.

Cameron: Everyone should just eat some food. I also appreciate when she said that her yelling at Wilden was pro bono.

Deepa: That was hilarious!

Cameron: Oh, you had a little sense of humor there. Good job!

Deepa: Jokes! Yeah, some jokes. Yeah, that was really good. And yeah, just her whole – like, she's not even just angry at Wilden. She's like, “What are you doing? What were you thinking? Like you are – what the fuck?” There's obviously something that Wilden – Wilden obviously has, like, an agenda apart from his cop agenda, right? Which is like part of the problem of how PLL views cops, is that they make exceptionally evil in some way, because they have a secret agenda. You know?

Cameron: Yes, when, like these ones are Bad.

Deepa: Yeah, because he has both an Ashley Marin agenda and an Alison agenda. So I gave her best parents for sure. Because, like Ella was around and fine, but –

Cameron: I don't know. I know she, like, doesn't know this, but she was confiding in Aria's groomer.

Deepa: I know, I know, it was hard not – it was hard to give her points for that, even though it's not her fault.

Cameron: It's not her – like I just I guess I'm trying to imagine if this is a random teacher, it's still kind of weird to say, like, “I'm glad she has a trusted adult in her life.” Kind of, maybe not. I don't know.

Deepa: I don't know. This is a funny example. But I could picture, I could picture someone saying – well, I could picture someone saying that on Friday Night Lights?

Cameron: Oh, and then I would be here for it. [both laugh]

Deepa:  Right?

Cameron: Damn it. Okay, it's context.

Deepa: I mean, it's a very different context, because, like, what Aria is going through is, yes, her parents splitting up, but it's also not poverty and being a caretaker for an adult and all these other things that they go through in Friday Night Lights, you know? I don't think the way that Ella – I think the way that Ella engaged with Ezra in the movie theatre episode was a little weird. I didn't think the way she engaged with him in this episode was weird.

Cameron: I was probably putting my own whatever on there.

Deepa: It’s fair. I just – I've had a lot of teachers that my parents were friendly with at various points, and it was never weird. It's just the Ezra thing that makes it weird.

Cameron: Yeah. Ugh. Why did he have to come back?

Deepa: I don't fucking know. Just go to whatever like country day school you were at in New York. But no, he also has an agenda. So he's not gonna fucking leave.

Cameron: Oh god. I know.

Deepa: Okay, okay, we don't need to – we do need to talk about Noel Kahn though.

Cameron: Noel Kahn! So brainy. [laughs]

Deepa: I love early Noel Kahn, because he's so funny, and the way they talk about him is so funny!

Cameron: They literally like – “He's the whole package.”

Deepa: “He's brainy, but also cute, and rich. He has potential.” Oh Alison. He is, like, I guess cute – it's hard for me to gauge whether I think he's cute to Aria or not, because I know what he becomes like? And I enjoy Noel Kahn as a character, but you can't call him cute in his later iterations.

Cameron: No. I do – this is another example of the being like Aria is the main character, having her fucking sing.

Deepa: I know. I know. I know. She's, like, fine at singing, but not that good.

Cameron: But why are we doing this?

Deepa: It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. She's not even, like, a singer that, you know – like sometimes you have people who came from Broadway or whatever to shows, but she’s not –

Cameron: Oh, yeah yeah yeah. [both laugh]

Deepa: Or you have people who came from Glee, but I think PLL only has one Glee crossover. It's not a real Glee – no, sorry, they have two Glee crossover actors. The first one is not a real one. It's just funny because we love him being in PLL. It's Adam Lambert.

Cameron: Oh! Yes, yes, okay.

Deepa: He was in Glee, for, like a handful of episodes. And then the other one is Kurt's boyfriend, who is the British guy that Spencer hooks up with when she goes to London.

Cameron: Thank you, sorry, I was drawing a blank.

Deepa: I don't know if you have – I don't think you watched that part of Glee. Both of those characters are from the same part of Glee that I, like, randomly watched like seven episodes of even though I was no longer watching the show at all. So. I just have this in my brain.

Cameron: You got that data. So, thank you.

Deepa: I did get the data. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, they're allowed to sing if they want to. But why is Lucy Hale singing?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. I did laugh at Noel Kahn saying, “No girl likes hockey.”

Cameron: I think it’s – I mean, Aria doesn't like hockey.

Deepa: Aria doesn't like hockey.

Cameron: I don't know why you're trying that move with her.

Deepa: It’s a weird move. I don’t think Aria likes basketball?

Cameron: Basketball? No. But like – no, hockey is inherently masculine.

Deepa: I mean, we don't have a lot of sports in PLL, I guess, except swimming.

Cameron: No, we – yeah, we get so little sport.

Deepa: So little sport. There needs to be more sport. What did you think about outfits?

Cameron: I had a hard time. I felt like there was so little outfit changes.

Deepa: I was lukewarm on them on both sides, both good and bad.

Cameron: Because the first – the second episode, they only wear one, right? Which was challenging. so, I just, like, had to make a call, I guess. So I didn't like Aria's dress she wears to take the SATs.

Deepa: With the clasps?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: [laughs] I liked that dress!

Cameron: You liked that dress?

Deepa: I do! It was among my good. I didn't give it best. I just thought they were all lukewarm. But it was among my good ones.

Cameron: It was. I had to give it a no, because I…yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense that you would dislike that. Okay, what was your best then?

Cameron: I liked Spencer's SAT outfit when she put her jacket on. When the jacket was off? Disgusting! Jacket on? Cute.

Deepa: That's funny.

Cameron: How about you?

Deepa: Okay, so a lot of my notes are about the first episode which I watched like a week ago, so I can't actually remember them. But I have –

Cameron: Maybe talk to me and I might remember them.

Deepa: I said Hanna's memorial outfit was pretty good?

Cameron: Yeah, it was pretty good.

Deepa:  Okay. Okay. I also – I enjoyed that Spencer wore a tie in the first scene. The sweater vest was funny. It was very Spencer. And then for my bad outfits, my notes are, “Spencer has some old lady outfits.” But I don’t remember which one.

Cameron: No, I mean she does. Like, I think there was a dress that would have been cute, but there's a weird sweater on top of it.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, there were a lot of weird, like, skirts and dress things. Emily had a weird skirt when they went to the principal's office. She doesn't usually wear a skirt, so I don't know why it's so bad.

Cameron: She wears jean skirts occasionally.

Deepa:  Oh, that's true, that's true. But those look good on her.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah. No. It was a weird outfit moment, like, episodes.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. Hanna had a white jacket that I didn't like, apparently, according to my notes. I just don’t remember!

Cameron: Cool, cool. This is great. We're doing great.

Deepa: I did do a little bit of Mona As A analysis.

Cameron: Ooh tell me!

Deepa: Well, number one, Mona sends a text to Emily in the library where we have just seen her, and she's not texting, so. But she could pre-send texts or pre-schedule texts, I guess, she's a hacker and all that. More importantly, she's in the locker room when Emily's in the library being scared by the books and her bag being taken away. I think there's two ways to read this. One, Mona could sneak out of the locker room because she's good at everything. Or, number two, Wilden actually did that, and just pretended like he saw the bag on the table.

Cameron: I was thinking it was Wilden, but –

Deepa: Okay. That makes more sense, I think.

Cameron: That scene was so funny because she was narrating what she was experiencing – Emily. She was just like “oh, I'm scared, what's going on?” in a way that like that would just be something usually convey with your face. That was very funny to me. [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh my god, I didn’t pick up on that! That's so funny. Like, “Oh no, my bag is gone!”

Cameron: We know your bag is gone. You showed us that your bag is gone.

Deepa: That's funny. Oh my god, I did not think about that.

Cameron: I was just like, what’s happening?

Deepa: Okay, okay, so Wilden did that? Great.

Cameron: That's what I was thinking, like, just being a fuck.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, it's a simple explanation. He obviously goes through her bag. So why wouldn’t he? Okay, that makes sense.

Cameron: And is Lucas already working for Mona, or did he destroy the thing on his own?

Deepa: No, he destroyed the thing on his own. I think Mona is completely working alone for the first two seasons, and then, after she goes to Radley and comes back, there's various things.

Cameron: Okay I was, like, “I don't think he's…?” All right.

Deepa: I think the first thing Lucas does for Mona is the massage for Emily. The creepy massage for Emily.

Cameron: Bleh. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. So.

Cameron: Yeah, I guess Mona would be upset if he wore his dirty sneakers. That would not fly as A minion behavior.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't forget that it happened, but I did forget – in the scene where Lucas is talking to Hanna and saying, “Thank you,” and she's like, “You don’t have to say thank you,” and then he's just, like, looking sorrowfully at her – I did forget that that's why he's upset, not because he's just like pining. I was just, like, okay, Lucas major pining face. [laughs]

Cameron: I do think it's funny that, like, Sean is making fun of Lucas when they met him in Virgin Teen Club. Like, of course he's going to be a dork. What do you mean?

Deepa:Like come on! Also you’re just punching down. Like Mona is obviously, too, is horribly punching down, but like Sean is definitely punching down, come the fuck on.

Cameron: Homecoming King. Jesus.

Deepa: I'm glad we didn't get Sean in this episode. I think we don't get him for that much longer?

Cameron: We have a weird dance.

Deepa: We also have some weird situation where, like, there's something about helping out at a fair that Melissa and Ian have to do? Where they're like helping out the pastor's wife, right? And the pastor's wife is Sean's mom. So I feel like there's like something weird there. But I don't remember when that happens, because Melissa and Ian have to get together for that to happen. Ugh, we always get Sean longer than we think we're gonna have Sean.

Cameron: He's just – he needs to go away.

Deepa: He needs to go away. Be a pastor’s son elsewhere. Date the cheerleader from the other school who's also into virginity. Like, that seems like a better fit.

Cameron: Fantastic! Do that.

Deepa:  There was a little Jenna stuff in the flashback in the memorial episode that was interesting. Because you know, this – Alison sitting on her throne like giving out her, like –

Cameron: Oh my god, yeah.

Deepa: She says that Jenna is with her like D list gang, which is really funny. And also like – well, this came up during Jenna's speech at Alison’s memorial, but how she says, “I thought I knew Alison my whole life, but I didn't know –” She's like, “I thought I knew what she was like, but she was actually the strongest person I know,” something something. But doesn't she just move to town like a few years ago? Like.

Cameron: Yeah, because Ali asks her to be friends, right? And then Jenna rejects her.

Deepa: And that's in the Halloween episode, right? The one we don't like. So that’s like two years ago.

Cameron: Yeah. [both laugh]

Deepa: Very weird. And I don't know where the beach flashback – or when the beach flashback takes place. But –

Cameron:  I guess post that?

Deepa: Post that. Yeah, maybe the summer before Ali disappeared. That would make sense. But yeah, I don't understand what Jenna is supposed to think about Alison beforehand. You know.

Cameron: “Her bravery is her legacy” is very…okay.

Deepa: Yeah. Of course, they're all really shitty about her wanting to speak. Spencer, like, fucking threatens her.

Cameron: I'm glad Jenna stirred some shit up with that though. Like, “Fuck you. She was scared of you. Is that why you killed her?” Hilarious.

Deepa: That was amazing. I also love that Alison told her that Spencer did it all. I didn’t remember that.

Cameron: Amazing! Hilarious! What? Scheming.

Deepa: Ali, you’re so chaotic, I love it. Actually, Ali is not chaotic. She's very – she's very strategic. So that's not a chaotic move.

Cameron: No, she's focused.

Deepa: Yeah, she's not on our chaotic list. I just completely forgot that that was – I don't even know how long that lasts, of Jenna thinking that Spencer led them to do the stink bomb.

Cameron: Oh, yeah. Well, we have, like – hmm. I'm mixing up things.

Deepa: That's okay. Well, we'll see eventually.

Cameron: I'm, like – my brain is like "err err err".

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Because we have just a lot of like “Spencer's scary” stuff and “has anger issues”.

Deepa: Yes, there's definitely – I don't like the whole “Spencer could have killed Ali” plot line. That's just annoying to me. But it definitely – does that like also go hand in hand with Spencer's first addiction plot line?

Cameron: Absolutely.

Deepa: Yeah. So, not looking forward to that. Yeah. But I don't think much of that has to do with Jenna after this, right? Like Jenna kind of starts the ball rolling of making Spencer think about it. But I just don't think Jenna has much to play in that after this.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay. I have a question that I don't think you're going to know the answer to.

Cameron: Try me.

Deepa: Why is there a second Alison bracelet? Do we remember?

Cameron: Is it just to make it like so there's no questions about whose body that is?

Deepa: Ohhhh, that’s a good – yes, right. So. That is a good point. However, also, who put it on Bethany then? Because…Melissa thinks – okay, Melissa kills Bethany, right?

Cameron: Yeah. Let’s walk through this.

Deepa: We're gonna, obviously, get to this later, but we might as well try to remember it now.

Cameron: Great! Take me through the night of!

Deepa: I'm not going to take you through all of it, because it was so long. But Bethany thinks that Spencer killed Alison. Wait – no – god –

Cameron: NOPE! [both burst out laughing] Love it.

Deepa: Bethany didn’t know anything!

Cameron: Oh, Bethany.

Deepa: Okay. Well, Melissa sees a dead body wearing Ali’s shirt, with blonde hair, thinks that Spencer killed Bethany – I mean Alison! Oh my god! I'm getting so confused. I’m so sorry! But it's Bethany. So she puts her in a grave which Alison actually previously had been in and then got herself out of – or Grunwald got her out of.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But she doesn't know that it's Bethany, right? She thinks that Alison before she buries her.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: So was Bethany already wearing the Ali bracelet before that?

Cameron:  Oh, that's weird.

Deepa: I think that's what makes the most sense is that someone dressed her, right? Like whoever it was dressed her up like Ali, and then also gave her the bracelet – yeah, because. The shirt? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. So I guess there had to be two bracelets.

Cameron: It's so weird.

Deepa: It's very weird. I also remembered something we were talking about at a previous episode about them putting things – this is completely unrelated, but it just reminded me – them putting things in Ali's coffin?

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: I think I remember when that happens. I think that's a flashback, from later on, to the lead up to Ali's funeral. So yeah, I think it does – it has already happened. But we haven't seen it yet.

Cameron: Ohhhh. That’s true because –

Deepa: That was really confusing me.

Cameron: – because they’re like, “What did you put in there?”

Deepa: Exactly.

Cameron: They're asking about it. Yeah, okay.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, later. And it – that's when the Aria earring thing comes up. And I think – oh, and! I think the reason that it comes back is because A steals Alison’s – Bethany's body at one point, remember?

Cameron: Oh geez.

Deepa: At the beginning of that one season, and then it comes back in the Halloween episode.

Cameron: Oh, it's so amazing.

Deepa: I think the earring is supposed to be proof that A has Ali’s body in that flashback. We're remembering things!

Cameron: Yeah, no, you're –

Deepa: On our fourth rewatch.

Cameron: I know, I was, like – [laughs] Oh gosh! Still finding myself confused.

Deepa: No, I'm still confused about everything. I’m just trying to track some of the plot lines and seeing if they make sense early on, and they probably don't. But it’s fun to think about.

Cameron: I’m sure they do not.

Deepa: Do we have any Aria Is A theories for this?

Cameron: Fuck! No!

Deepa: I didn't think about it. I was too distracted by her singing.

Cameron: Yeah. I guess we could talk about why – just going back to the parents. Why does Byron stay again? And why does Ella move out?

Deepa: You mean when they ultimately get divorced?

Cameron: No, right now, right now.

Deepa: Right now, because Byron didn't want to, like…right? Like he refused.

Cameron: So he just refused?

Deepa:  He just refused. Yeah, remember from that previous episode?

Cameron:  I know, but it is so bananas that that's actually what happens.

Deepa: It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. He's like, “I want to stay and fix our marriage and be there for our kids.” And Ella’s like, “I will be there for our kids. But I don't want to fix our marriage.” So she moves out.

Cameron: That's…wow.

Deepa: Okay. But the weirder question, too, is, then they do get back together for a while, and then they finally get divorced, and Ella moves out again! At that point!

Cameron: It's so weird, it's so weird. When, like, obviously, she's the one who's keeping the operation going.

Deepa: Obviously! Yeah. Yeah, the whole Ella and Aria thing in this episode – like, I guess I kind of got where Aria was coming from because she's a teenager. But it's weird.

Cameron: It is weird.

Deepa: By doing that, you are, again – kind of like, Ashley, but more impactfully – basically picking sides, because it means you get to see your dad all the time, even though he's the one that fucked this up. And you're refusing to see your mom, right? Like her moving out isn't a demonstration of, like, her being at fault for the situation. That's how they're treating it, right?

Cameron: Because that’s what it would usually be, right? I think that’s usually the narrative. Like this person fucked up so they have to leave. So, like, I guess by her leaving, she's fucked up?

Deepa: Indicating that? But she's doing it because Byron’s even worse than the dads who move out.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: I think that should be an indicator that Byron's even worse!

Cameron:  Yes. God, he sucks so hard.

Deepa: He sucks, and he thinks he's such a good guy. He thinks he’s such a good guy! Ugh, ugh, ugh. Anyway, Ella will be teaching at the school soon which I have mixed feelings about, because, on the one hand, I mean, she befriends Ezra. On the other hand, we see her more, and she interacts with Aria more. So that's nice.

Cameron:  I guess.

Deepa: God. Poor Ella.

Cameron: I know.

Deepa: She's getting it from all sides, like – your daughter isn't even mad at you, she just doesn't like going to your apartment because that, like, "makes a statement".

Cameron: Yeah. I'm sorry to go back to the parents.

Deepa: No, it's okay. The parents are more interesting this episode than the outfits.

Cameron: They were! Yeah. Interesting…

Deepa: Ahhh, Ashley being a mess, Ashley being chaotic.

Cameron: Oh. So chaotic.

Deepa: I do love that when the lights came back on, they were both really awkward about it. They both realized at the same time how weird this was. They basically had agreed to go on a date to his, like, faculty dinner.

Cameron: Yeah, nothing – yeah. I'm glad they shut that down.

Deepa: They shut that down immediately. Oh man.

Cameron: Meredith can be his date.

Deepa: She’s probably there anyway, being a TA! [both laugh] We can always talk about Meredith, but she wasn’t actually in this episode.

Cameron: I did – [laughs] I guess going back to Spencer being a cute relationship. There was a little bit of drama, or, like, kind of confusion, and then she was like, “Are we ever going to get past this?” It had been like two hours! [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh my god, that’s so funny! Alex is like, I am studying for the SAT and trying to avoid your mom, because I don't know what to say.

Cameron: “I can't tell you about this thing your mom doesn’t want to disclose to you,” like, protecting her –

Deepa: “Just go talk to your mom! We'll be fine if you talk to your mom.”

Cameron: She’s like, “Are we gonna get past this?”

Deepa: Spencer! That is so funny.

Cameron:  Wow, you are not having any problems right now in your –

Deepa: Oh, man, I mean, Spencer's not chill about relationships. Which is fine. We don't really want people to be chill.

Cameron: We don't like chill people necessarily. Yeah.

Deepa: We had a house rule that was “be less chill.” Which is both because we don't think you should be chill, and because we think the musical Be More Chill is ridiculous!

Cameron: Yeah. [both laugh] I don't remember how many times we got drunk, and one of us read the Wikipedia synopsis to the other one. Like I feel like that happened so many times because –

Deepa: It happened for both that and Dear Evan Hansen because we couldn’t tell them apart.

Cameron: We thought they were the same.

Deepa: We thought they were the same. We mixed up plot points with each other.

Cameron: Ahhh! Mmmmm.

Deepa: So yes, be less chill, Spencer. You're doing a great job at being less chill.

Cameron: Yeah, I guess – I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Deepa: I was just gonna say, this podcast would be very different if I could get drunk! Because we would.

Cameron: Yes, that would be – yeah, definitely more of that. [laughs]

Deepa: Yes, it would be a podcast about drinking wine and talking about PLL. But. Not right now.

Cameron: Not the case. Speaking of getting drunk: Veronica.

Deepa: Oh, yes, oh, Veronica, the sidecars.

Cameron: Endless sidecars. I did – that family– the family is so weird.

Deepa: Oh my god.

Cameron: Like we know this, but like the fact when Spencer’s like, “Oh my gosh! Are you okay? Why didn't you and Dad tell me?” And she's like, “You think your father knows? Absolutely not!”

Deepa: She says it’s because they don't handle “imperfection” well? What the fuck? What a weird – like, even if you believe it, why would you say that to your daughter, right? Like –

Cameron: To your daughter!

Deepa: What if, you know, what if you got sick? That's an imperfection! What? Veronica!

Cameron: Wild.

Deepa: So wild. We still gave her best parent, but so wild. Oh my god, that family. Yeah, that family is ridiculous.

Cameron: Yeah, it is one thing to like to know that and that's the thing, but to, like, to tell your daughter that, is –

Deepa: To tell your daughter that! And to talk about it like that. Like, who is driving this, then? Is it just Peter? Right? I mean, it is Veronica, too. Veronica has very high standards about things; she doesn't eat, she is a lawyer. But if she recognizes how fucked up this is, and she's all – it's almost like she was talking as if she was Melissa talking to Spencer of like, “You know what this family is like.”

Cameron: Yeah. Like she doesn’t have power in making that –

Deepa: You could change this! And she does eventually divorce Peter. But it doesn't seem like for this. She divorces Peter because he has sex with everyone and has so many kids.

Cameron: He did have sex with everyone and has so many kids!

Deepa: So many kids! And is a dick.

Cameron: And is, like, horrible. Yeah.

Deepa: But he's, like, funny-horrible. I enjoy Peter a lot more than other horrible characters, or at least other horrible dads.

Cameron: Because he’s chaotic! Like he's doing ridiculous shit.

Deepa: It’s so funny. And he doesn’t care!

Cameron: No!

Deepa: He doesn’t try to excuse it, really, most of the time. He calls Spencer “champ”. [both laugh] I don’t know if that’s happened yet, but I love that about him. Oh man.

Cameron: God.

Deepa: The Hastingses.

Cameron: Yeah. So, like, I'm sure Mona knew that she was purchasing Hanna's bag, right? But she can't –

Deepa: Yeah, absolutely. Mona absolutely knew that she was purchasing Hanna’s bag. Which – some of the things Mona does are so funny because they're just – I feel this with Mona and Ezra, too, right? Like some of the things they do like have to be part of their calculation, but they don't actually make sense. Or –

Cameron: Okay, okay.

Deepa: I guess she wanted more attention from Hanna? Was she just doing it for attention from Hanna? Mona. Mona!

Cameron: I don't know. Yeah, she was a fuck in this episode. Yeah, not fun.

Deepa: Nope, really bad. Oh, I forgot that we got Sean in the first episode. It's been a little while since I've watched the memorial one because we got – we got the Sean/Hanna, Noel Kahn/Aria date. So that's when Sean was making fun of Lucas. Okay, going back on that. It was weird that Lucas just showed up in Hanna's house, though.

Cameron: Yeah, that was weird.

Deepa: What? With, like, a bag of money?

Cameron: A bag of money. Without, like, texting, or coordinating, or, like, would see you next day at school and could give it to you then.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Didn't make any sense. That date is funny, though.

Cameron: Uh huh. Aria’s just sulking.

Deepa: Noel Kahn’s just being, like, really earnest, which is what's funny about him right now. He's like good guy-earnest. I almost – yeah, I don't know why they like change his character so much. But it is very funny, because Noel Kahn is already on his way to figuring out about Ezra and Aria. He’s going to find out and threatens to tell the principal. And on his way to telling the principal, A plants weed in his locker or something, and he gets busted for it. So we don’t see him for a while, and then when he come back, he's very antagonistic. Is that, like, what changed him? Like he’s antagonistic towards Aria, but he’s a completely different person.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And the whole time he's also – maybe not the whole time – but he's also supposed to be, like, helping Ali at some point along the way. Maybe not in the beginning.

Cameron: True.

Deepa: Yeah. Noel Kahn, so many layers.

Cameron: And then he just gets like beheaded. Weird.

Deepa: So weird, I know. Yeah. I know, I was actually kind of sad when he said something about, like, “My dad's afraid that I'll like not go to college and be a musician.” I was like, oh, you won't do either thing.

Cameron: Because you're gonna die. Yeah, there's not – I mean, I guess, there's, like presumed death, right? Now, there's not…real death. [both laugh]

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: You know what I mean.

Deepa: I don’t know when we get our first non-Ali/Bethany murder – I guess, non-Bethany murder – when do we get our first non-Bethany murder? Does anyone get murdered in the second season? I feel like it's not until the third or fourth season. Somewhere along the way we get – I mean, obviously Maya, but I don't know when that happens.

Cameron: Ugh.

Deepa: Yeah, I think Maya might be the first to die.

Cameron: Really?

Deepa: Which is so fucked. Maya or maybe Garrett. No, Maya is already dead by then because –

Cameron: Garrett shows up at the thing, right? No! No. No. Caleb shows up with the gun.

Deepa: Oh, you're thinking of Maya’s killer, right? Like, what's his face? But yeah, anyway, Garrett dies on the train episode.

Cameron: Yes, which is after that.

Deepa: Which is after that, because he’s suspected of Maya’s murder at that point. And Ali’s. I think he's like – remember, because Veronica’s his lawyer for a while?

Cameron: Yes, I do remember that.

Deepa: Anyway, we're jumping all over the place. I think Maya is the first who dies.

Cameron: Which is so upsetting.

Deepa: So yeah, anyway, we can. We have a while before then, we have –

Cameron: I know, it’s so hard to just be like –

Deepa: – present with that?

Cameron: Yeah, when we know it's gonna happen.

Deepa: I know, I know. Well. [both laugh] It’s okay if we sometimes have a downer.

Cameron: Womp womp.

Deepa: What else do you say about it? It’s horrible!

Cameron: It sucks! And everything leading up to it is horrible.

Deepa: Yeah, I just feel like – yeah. It's the first evidence of this show’s incredible anti-Blackness that kills all the black characters. Except for one: Eddie Lamb. And he’s so traumatized that he ages twenty years.

Cameron: It's weird. It happens, I guess. Yeah.

Deepa: Very weird, very weird. Oh, Rosewood. Do we want to wrap this up?

Cameron: Oh hmmm. Probably. [both laugh]

Deepa: I just don't have anything else, so if you wanted to talk more –

Cameron: I don't think I have anything normal.

Deepa: [bursts out laughing] We can do a lot more, like, speculating about what we remember about future plotlines. [both laugh]

Cameron: Yeah, I think we can wrap it up.

Deepa: Okay. I do have two recipe-related things. One is a redaction from a – redaction? retraction! – retraction from a previous statement I made –

Cameron: Ooh!

Deepa: – not a recipe, but a statement I made.

Cameron: Ooh! Ooh! Okay, sorry.

Deepa: Okay, in our first episode, we talked about the chickpeas and mustard, and I said that I didn't like mustard before that recipe. And I was telling my dad that recently, and he was like, “What are you talking about? We use mustard in our cooking all the time.” And I remembered that I'm south Indian, and we do in fact use mustard seeds in all of our cooking. So it's just, like, packet yellow mustard as a condiment that I didn't like. So I will have to retract that and say, I have liked mustard my whole life. It just was in Indian food, so I didn’t think about it.

Cameron: Wow.

Deepa: It does not change the impact of that recipe on me. It made me like mustard in non-Indian food! But I just had to clarify, in case anyone else south Indian is listening to this, and is like, “You're a horrible south Indian.” I'm not!! [both laugh]

Cameron: Well, thank you so much. Wow, okay. What else you got?

Deepa: Well, the other thing is, I think it's my turn for a recipe.

Cameron: I think that checks out.

Deepa: Yes. I haven't been cooking because I have long covid, so I thought I'd share one of my chickpea depression recipes –

Cameron: Yesss! Chickpea depression recipe! Hit us with it!

Deepa: – which works for long covid as well! Yeah, when I can't make food, I just take a can of chickpeas and drain it and wash it, put in the microwave for like 30 seconds, put some red pepper flakes – like whatever dried herbs I have around, right? I put, like, oregano – and if I have garlic powder, that's great – but, like, oregano and basil, and some cumin, and then red pepper flakes, and salt, and just eat it. And black pepper! And that’s, like, not a bad depression meal, to be honest. They're already cooked, so.

Cameron: Protein.

Deepa:  You could even eat them cold. I don't care.

Cameron: You could.

Deepa: If it’s hot out.

Cameron: Nice. I guess I can write that up for the show notes, but it seems silly. I think we can trust that the people – I mean, I think the only thing we have to make sure people don't do is microwave the can. [Deepa cracks up] Put it in a bowl. If we're making instructions, put it in a bowl. If you’re so depressed, just make sure you put it in a bowl.

Deepa: You don't even have to drain it. Yeah, like, I don't know, you might just like eating aquafaba.

Cameron: We love aquafaba!

Deepa: So that is one of my depression chickpea recipes. I can share more at another point.

Cameron: Stay tuned for more!

Deepa: Until I ever cook again. I think all of my depression recipes involved chickpeas.

Cameron: They're so easy.

Deepa: They’re so easy! They're already cooked. They're in a can. Yeah. Yeah. That's why we love them.

Cameron: Yes. Thank you for sharing.

Deepa: I think you should close this out since I started.

Cameron: Okay well, thanks everybody for listening. And yeah, don't forget to act normal, bitches!

Deepa: Byeeeee!