Episodes 1.02 & 1.03: "Sometimes the Truth Is Worse"

In this episode, we covered episodes 1.02, “The Jenna Thing”, and 1.03, “To Kill A Mocking Girl”, featuring a whole lot of ableism, a bunch of new characters showing up (and one immediately leaving), the first of many parties at Noel Kahn’s cabin, us being forever angry about abusers and the carceral nature of this show, whether sports are about winning, and more!

Episode Transcript: Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpea Recipe Update: Here's Rancho Gordo’s bean catalog if you also want to be on a bean email list!

Corrections:

• In talking about the bomb that Alison throws into the garage where Jenna is, Deepa keeps saying “smoke bomb”, but what Deepa meant (and what the show actually says) is that it’s a stink bomb. We still don’t understand how that made a fire though
• Deepa refers to a school dance they’ll go to in a future episode - where Hanna keeps dancing with Lucas - as Homecoming, but it’s actually a different dance

Fashion Analysis: Our best and worst outfits! 

Things We Referenced Only Sort Of Related To PLL:

• Center Stage and Jody Sawyer's bad feet
• Rock of Ages and Diego Boneta, who plays Alex on PLL, being cute (if you haven’t seen the movie, you should at least watch this scene)

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL:

• How to Get Away with Murder and how Annalise chose the Keating Five (we were wrong about Connor and Michaela, sigh)
• The Seattle Storm’s rebuilding season in the WNBA
• The Sound of Music and Maria’s blue dress (slide 9), which doesn’t actually look anything like Hanna’s mermaid shirt, Deepa is just bad at fashion (also Deepa says Maria danced with Friedrich, which is also incorrect)

Postscript: This is not covered in the episode, but Cameron realized that Boyfriend Ben is played by the same actor as Coach Ben in Yellowjackets and would love to hear if anyone has an unhinged theory about that: dontforgetthechickpeas@gmail.com 

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to Free Lawrence Jenkins! Lawrence is an incredible abolitionist, artist, farmer, political educator, organizer, & friend of ours who is currently incarcerated. Help his defense committee to fight for his release!

Transcript

[Just a note for transcript readers: we are laughing pretty much constantly throughout the podcast, as well as engaging in a lot of cross-talk – oops – so we’ve tried to name that only when it feels especially relevant!]

Cameron: Okay, welcome back, folks.

Deepa: You want to do the intro this time?

Cameron: Sure. Hi! I'm Cameron. 

Deepa: I'm Deepa.

Cameron: Welcome back to Don't Forget the Chickpeas, your really serious space for – are we calling it a PLL rewatch podcast?

Deepa: I think so, I think so. 

Cameron: That’s kind of what it is?

Deepa: A PLL rewatch with all of our commentary from over the years, just, like, distilled. 

Cameron: Yeah, there will be spoilers. Everything will be a spoiler.

Deepa: Spoilers for everything, spoilers for every single – well, every single PLL Televised Universe thing. We don't do the books. I don't know anything about the books. 

Cameron: No, we’ve tried – 

Deepa: I know there are more twins in the book. That's about it.

Cameron: We looked it up on Wikipedia once. 

Deepa: We did, and it was so confusing! I couldn't handle it. Also, I think I gave you a copy of one of the books as a joke birthday present, in the first year we were friends. 

Cameron: That makes sense.

Deepa: I think you got, like, two pages in, and you're like, “I'm sorry, I can't read this.” And I was like, “I was not expecting you to!”

Cameron: I was trying, I was trying. You know, we were still new and fresh…

Deepa: It’s true, it’s true. And that was our point of connection – live together and watch a ton of Pretty Little Liars that summer.

Cameron: Mhm. [laughs] But we tasked ourselves with watching two episodes for this episode, mainly because we don't want to dwell too much on, quote unquote, “the Jenna thing”.

Deepa: Yup, which – I tried to keep track of how many times they said “the Jenna thing”. They actually only said it twice as those words, which is already too many. But I was surprised. I thought they said it more. 

Cameron: It felt like more! It felt like more.

Deepa: It felt like more, yeah. As much as we can, like – obviously talk about the fucking ableism, but also not give it too much prominence in this episode – would be great, just because it's such bullshit. And it's the driving narrative. But – 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: – but yeah, it's fucked up. It's really fucked up.

Cameron: Should we just get it out of the way, then move on? Is that what you’re saying, kind of?

Deepa: That sounds good, yes. Yes.

Cameron: Okay. So I think what we were talking about last episode with the noise of the cane being like this sinister mood-setting, like…oh my god.

Deepa: Yeah! It's like footsteps down a dark corridor…except it's in broad daylight, and it's the mobility aid of a person who is blind. Like she walks into a restaurant, and they all immediately try to leave!

Cameron: And – and it's just like –

Deepa: I don’t think they pay for their meal!

Cameron: I'm sure they don't. 

Deepa: Dine and dash because Jenna walked in.

Cameron: And the same thing with using – like when Spencer’s on a run towards the end of, I think, the first episode? And she just – Jenna is literally just sitting on a bench. 

Deepa: Spencer's the one who goes near her – 

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: – as Jenna is sitting there! And I was trying to figure out what they want us – [sound of cell phone ringing] – oh my god, sorry, my dad is calling.

Cameron: [laughs]

Deepa: Sorry! [speaking on the phone] Appa, did you see my text? I'm busy. No, I sent you a text because I'm busy for the next hour. That's what I was trying to tell you. Okay, bye. 

Cameron: That's on the recording, don't worry.

Deepa: [laughs] Should we keep that?

Cameron: It’s up to you!

Deepa: For context, listeners, all of our listeners: I live with my parents, so my dad just called me from downstairs. 

Cameron: He's a fan, you know.

Deepa: He’s a big fan. [laughs] He does hate ableism, so maybe that's why he called.

Cameron: Yeah!

Deepa:  What was I saying? Oh, yeah, she's sitting on a bench. And I was really trying to understand what we're supposed to get out of that scene that is threatening, other than the fact that they realized a blind person could use a phone.

Cameron: That, I think, is it! That she sends a text message.

Deepa: Right? She sends a text message. Like everyone else in this town.

Cameron: No, but when she does it, it's…

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: I don't know. Yeah.

Deepa: It's awful. It’s awful. 

Cameron: I did think – so at one point Aria says hi to Jenna and says, “This is Aria,” and I think that's the only time they do that in the whole series.

Deepa: It’s true! Like that scene in the cafeteria was actually the best that they've ever been in terms of introducing who they are, showing Jenna where she can sit, and like…never again.

Cameron: Never again! Like they're hiding from her, they're – okay, we're not dwelling on this. But it's – ugh.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. It's horrible. The other thing – about the fire – in my mind, there was an implication that Alison had thrown something other than a smoke bomb in, but I don't think that's true. So how did garage catch on fire? I mean, I don’t really know what smoke bombs are like, but…

Cameron: I have no – that was my question too. I was like, was there something flammable in the garage? What was going on? Because that shouldn't have blown up like that, right?

Deepa: It, like, exploded immediately, and my memory was that she had told the other girls that it was a smoke bomb, but it was actually something else. 

Cameron: Which could be the case, I guess.

Deepa: Which could be, but they never actually say that, and I thought that was real. Anyway. 

Cameron: I don't know if this is something we talk about or like gets touched on upon, but when you know she's like, “Oh, that's Toby creeping in the window” – is that just the N.A.T. Club, or is it no one? 

Deepa: No, I'm pretty sure it’s the N.A.T. Club.

Cameron: Okay, yeah.

Deepa: I don't know who, but – I guess probably not Jason? Maybe Garrett, I think Garrett lives in the same neighborhood as Emily, right?

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah, you have a reason to think that people are watching you, because they are watching you. 

Deepa: Yeah, it's true. But it wasn't Toby. He's an easy fall guy. And he's maybe a fall guy just because he…I don't know. I don't know why – because he's Jenna's step-brother? I don't know. He liked Alison before all this.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: She did her “I know you want to kiss me” line on him.

Cameron: [laughs] Her famous line! How many people does she use that on?

Deepa: [laughs] Maybe just Ian and Toby, but it seems like more. 

Cameron: It's just – it’s like the general vibe, right?

Deepa: And notably, probably not Emily! It is her vibe with Emily, though, before they actually get together. [laughs]

Cameron: God.

Deepa: So – I was surprised at how many new major characters were introduced in episode…three, I think? Yeah.

Cameron: Oh my god, episode three! 

Deepa: Yeah, because they skip – we didn't have any many in episode two. But in episode three, they had Meredith, which I did not think was going to be so soon.

Cameron: Amazing. [laughs]

Deepa: We love Meredith!

Cameron: I was trying to remember what they say – like Jody Sawyer's feet don't turn out, or – what is that?

Deepa: She has bad feet! 

Cameron: She has bad feet? Okay.

Deepa: Sorry, for listeners, if you haven't seen Center Stage, that is also a foundational part of our – I don't know, cultural…something? 

Cameron: Yeah!

Deepa: We love Center Stage, and we love Jody Sawyer and her bad feet.

Cameron: And she plays Meredith in this. 

Deepa: And she plays Meredith. I don't know if Meredith has bad feet. I presume she does. 

Cameron: They don’t talk about it.

Deepa: Maybe that's why she stopped dancing, you know, she had to go to grad school. You know her parents were like, “You still have time to go to college.” And she was like, “Damn, like, I have to.”

Cameron: [laughs] I do – 

Deepa:  Cooper's – sorry, Cooper Nielsen's company like – 

Cameron: – folded immediately? 

Deepa: Immediately.

Cameron: That’s so funny. [laughs] I have a couple – [laughs]

Deepa: [laughs] Okay, getting back on track.

Cameron: Barely! I do like Aria saying, “When will she graduate?” about Meredith.

Deepa: Oh my god!

Cameron: Like, why is she still lurking around?

Deepa: Also, as usual, we have never managed to figure out if Hollis has graduate programs, and whether she was an undergrad or a graduate student. And the same thing for Ezra – we have not been able to figure out if Ezra has a Master's degree.

Cameron: Nope.

Deepa: Aaah? Maybe? It is a “college”, so probably undergrad. But how are they doing these jobs?

Cameron: Yeah, like – I mean, maybe Pennsylvania is different.

Deepa: Well, and also, she’s a TA as her job now – which isn't a thing, right? That’s what Byron says. He’s like, “I see her, because she's a teaching assistant.”

Cameron: Yeah, that'll give you like a thousand dollars. 

Deepa: And that’s what you usually do when you are a grad student. 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But yes, we got Meredith. We got Noel Kahn – 

Cameron: Noel Kahn!

Deepa: – in episode three, which is exciting.

Cameron: So exciting. I also enjoyed – we got introduced to two boyfriends, and then immediately fight and break up with them – 

Deepa: [laughs] That’s true!

Cameron: –which I thought was fun. Like in the span of these two episodes, it was like, here's Ben!

Deepa: Ben is here and gone. Sean sticks around for a little longer, but like they're already major cracks in the relationship.

Cameron: Hanna’s trying to fuck.

Deepa: Just a side note…do we remember what episode Caleb comes in? Because this is what we ask every time we watch the show – 

Cameron: No, and we’re never going to remember.

Deepa: Is it episode twelve, or something? 

Cameron: That’s what I was going to say!

Deepa: I'm not going to look it up this time because I want to be surprised by it. Or, like, maybe proven right by it. But we're probably just going to complain about how Caleb isn’t here for a while.

Cameron: Yeah. That is very us.

Deepa: Yeah. The other new character I feel like that came in was – well, we got the Hastings parents, finally – 

Cameron: Ugh, yes. Peter and Veronica. 

Deepa: We got the Peter and the Veronica. Ugh. Veronica. 

Cameron: Womp womp.

Deepa: I think I gave Veronica worst parent. 

Cameron: I agree with you. I wanted to give it to Peter just because he's a pompous asshole. But Veronica, like – the way she – okay, so Spencer's best friend body was just found, right?

Deepa: Just found. 

Cameron: Just found.

Deepa: After being missing for a year.

Cameron: After being missing for a year! And then whenever they – you know, they're not there for that. They're not there for a lot of things. But she's there immediately when Melissa has a relationship crisis – 

Deepa: Yeah!

Cameron: – and is ganging up with Melissa against Spencer in this way that's just like, goddamn it. 

Deepa: And again, we have to remember that Melissa is like 23 or 24, and Spencer's, what, 16?

Cameron: Ugh!

Deepa: And she is – and Veronica is legitimizing the idea that Spencer and Wren are at equal “fault” for ruining Melissa's life, rather than being horrified that this man she let into their home abused their 16-year-old daughter. 

Cameron: Yeah, like – whooooo. And then she's – they come back from the club, you know – 

Deepa: Oh my god. 

Cameron: And by that I mean the tennis club. 

Deepa: Yeah yeah yeah. [laughs] 

Cameron: [laughs] And Veronica’s like, “I'm hungry,” and Spencer’s like, “I made some pasta,” and Melissa's like, “Ugh. I can't be depressed and fat.” And Veronica’s like, “Great idea!”

Deepa: Veronica’s like, “Right! You’re absolutely right, you should not eat things after just having played tennis.”

Cameron: “We will find a salad.”

Deepa: Oh my god. Oh my god. 

Cameron: Veronica!

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Just to get fatphobic parental comments out of the way, Ella also had a fatphobic joke about Hanna – 

Cameron: She did!

Deepa: – in the second episode. So, Ella, we're like – we need a good parent right now, please. 

Cameron: Yes. Do you know who I gave good parent to for this arc?

Deepa: Maybe the same person as me? But tell me.

Cameron: Pam!

Deepa: Yeah, me too! [laughs] Like – I think we have to isolate these, right? Like we have to take them as whatever arc we've chosen for each of our episodes. And Pam was so good in that conversation with Emily! She was very supportive, and had good advice on how to cope with this horrible thing that's happened, you know?

Cameron: And, she's aiding and a betting some lesbianism, which I think – [laughs]

Deepa: [laughs] It’s true, it’s true! Like other than her being startled by Maya hugging her, she was really nice to Maya, because she doesn't know what's going on. 

Cameron: Because she doesn't know what’s going on. 

Deepa: And she lets Maya stay over! 

Cameron: I was like, points for Pam. 

Deepa: Points for Pam! We will take those points away later. But for these two episodes, she was actually good.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Ashley at least didn’t disappoint me this episode, but, you know – she's just still so chaotic that things are all over the place. And the Wilden situation is out of control until she finally kicks him out. Like… so out of control. I forgot that he basically moves in.

Cameron: Disgusting.

Deepa: Immediately! 

Cameron: He's just there in the morning. 

Deepa: He's just there, being intensely creepy to Hanna. And, I mean – okay, I take that back, I am disappointed in Ashley. Because he's creepy to Hanna at home as well, not just at school where she can't see it – like, around Hanna.

Cameron: I think he literally at one point offered to give her a ride somewhere and said, “I won't use the cuffs.”

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah! He did literally say that!

Cameron: Like – fucking disgusting.

Deepa: Horrifying! Also. Why is he the same cop who does both shoplifting and murder? He’s a detective, right? [laughs] I mean, presumably he targeted the Marins, because of Ashley, so he probably came in on the shoplifting case just because he was like, “Oooh. I want to creep out these people. And get breakfast.”

Cameron: And get breakfast. [laughs] God. Fucking Wilden.

Deepa: Fucking Wilden.

Cameron: Ugh – interrogating them at school, interrogating them separately. Also the idea that their story is the same means…it's bad? 

Deepa: Yeah! Like what would he have said if their story was different? Then he would have said they lied. Also, he wasn't even supposed to be interrogating them at that point, he’s supposed to – he fucking follows Hanna to the mall, and is just standing at a car, leaning against it, as she and Mona are not shoplifting.

Cameron: They're not shoplifting that one time!

Deepa: I think…this is obviously going to be a theme for us, but I still think it's fascinating – and will continue to think it's fascinating – how PLL is a show that has a deep well of police abuse, right? People who are cops who are incredibly abusive, not only of their power as cops, but towards teenagers and towards vulnerable people. And yet it's such a carceral show. It does not ever get to – it does not ever get to this place of, like, “Hmm, all of these cops in this town have been doing this.” No, they're just bad apples. There's just like five bad apples. [laughs]

Cameron: Just every apple we encounter is a bad apple! No, because it would be so easy to make that turn, right? Just be like, “Oh, interesting.”

Deepa: Especially when they get caught up in the prison system and in psychiatric institutions. I mean, I think they're a little…[laughs] “better” on the psychiatric side? They seem to have a little bit more of a – burn it down, turn it into a hotel – 

Cameron: Turn it into a hotel!

Deepa: Deinstitutionalization via hotel!

Cameron: God. 

Deepa: But, you know, they're all caught up in in the prison system. They all – like Toby was just in juvie, right? Or something along those lines – and usually for things they didn't do. But they also do murders. So it's not – you know? There are all these ways in which they are operating outside of a system that – the system that we have defined needs punitive, quote unquote, “justice”, right? Because they are doing things that are illegal to protect themselves, that we're supposed to take as self-defense – 

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: – and they are getting caught and framed for things that they didn't do, and getting sent to jail. 

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: And yet!

Cameron: And yet.

Deepa: And yet they will continue to be like, “We should call the cops!” Or their parents will be, at least.

Cameron: And Aria! I feel like Aria is always like, “Let's call the cops.”

Deepa: You’re right, you’re right.  And then Toby! And then we have Toby. The ultimate –

Cameron: Oh my god! Toby is a cop. 

Deepa: Toby is a cop. Toby…I think we need to talk about Toby.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: Because when we rewatch, we usually treat early Toby differently than later Toby, right? We kind of like early Toby. And we kind of try to put it out of our minds what ends up happening, as far as him becoming an A minion, and then becoming a cop – which, we realized somewhere along the way, are actually both very aligned.

Cameron: It’s a slippery slope.

Deepa: He thinks he can make change from the inside, but hurts everyone around him by doing it!

Cameron: [laughs] That's so funny. It's so hard, though, because I just feel like in this episode, he just looks haunted, right? He's just, like, lurking in the dark. He seems like a totally different character, which, he's not. But like – yeah, I think we can hold ourselves more to…

Deepa: I just want to try to trace it more, I think, because in the past we've kind of been like, “Yay Toby!” until the A reveal, because that's when he really starts – 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But I think it's only this last time that we watched, the third time, that we were thinking about – at least I remember us talking about him being an A minion being very similar to his approach to becoming a cop.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And I think – oh, you know what? On our second rewatch, we didn't go past the Dollhouse, so I think that's why we didn't actually watch a lot of Toby-cop in our second watch. So in our third rewatch, we went further. So yeah. But right now, I don't know. Toby's…Toby’s been through so fucking much! Like Alison blackmailed him…

Cameron: He was in a sexually coercive relationship with Jenna?

Deepa: Yeahhhh. Yes, which I'm like – yeah. Toby has been through a lot. And the way that he develops a friendship with Emily is something I've always really enjoyed seeing. There's some rough moments, obviously. But yeah. So anyway, just paying attention to Toby behavior, but also not completely hating him from the get-go.

Cameron: Yeah…he just has this like loner, weirdo energy. I think we're supposed to think it’s kind of like, hmm…school shooter vibes, I would say? 

Deepa: Yeahhhhh.

Cameron: I think that’s what they want us to – like when he, we'll get there whenever it is, but when he takes Emily to the dance and there's a misunderstanding, and he’s being so creepy? I think people are just expecting him to do some violence. 

Deepa: Yup, totally. Absolutely. And he's such an outsider in, again, this perfect suburban facade world – like he's not meeting the facade, you know? And he’s, I think, actually supposed to have grown up there, right? Jenna and her mom are the ones who move to Rosewood, and I think her mom gets married to Toby's dad. But we see that happen, that was only a year before Ali disappeared. It's in the Halloween episode that we don't like.

Cameron: Thank you. Thank you. I was like, oh!

Deepa: I think it’s the Halloween before Alison disappears, so almost a year. But presumably Toby has grown up here. He might be a couple of years older than them. But I guess he's always been an outsider, even before all this, because otherwise why would Alison scapegoat him for this shit?

Cameron: Right, and why was it so easy to? 

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. Although – I guess I don't know if Alison actually thought it was Toby creeping at the windows or not. She might not have been scapegoating him for that. But yeah.

Cameron: Just trying to start trouble.

Deepa: Trying to start trouble. Okay, I think we should go to Maya and Emily, because I want a little bit of a happier note. 

Cameron: Aaaaah!

Deepa: We have a lot of hate. 

Cameron: Yeah. Oh my gosh, Maya is just so cute.

Deepa: So cute. She's just so flirty with Emily, and Emily is just, like, so into it, right? Like she's wary, but she's also not that wary. She is kind of accepting this, especially when they spoon in bed. It's so cute.

Cameron: Right?? It's just like they're – [laughs] When Boyfriend Ben picks them up to go to school and is like – I don't know, just that dynamic when he's like, “Ooh, Maya! You got further along with Emily than I have!” I don't know. It's just so funny!

Deepa: So funny. And, of course, the photobooth. 

Cameron: The photobooth!

Deepa: I love it that they don't, like, talk about it afterwards! They just come out and they're like,  gotta  fluff my hair to make sure no one knew.

Cameron: “Anyone want a drink?”

Deepa: “There's no photos!” I thought Maya might be sad there were no photos, because, you know, they were cute photos.

Cameron: They were cute photos. I do appreciate that's the first A activity we see is just them printing out a BILLION pictures.

Deepa: YES, at the end of the episode! Oh my god! Oh, also, I appreciate that Mona is wearing a hot dress, and then puts on a black hoodie to go pick up these photographs. [laughs]

Cameron: Love it. Love it. Because I don't think she has minions at this point, right? 

Deepa: No, I don't think – she is the minion. 

Cameron: There's not enough tasks. 

Deepa: Oh, no, I guess she's not working for anyone. But yeah, she's the main – she's just using her hyperreality powers. 

Cameron: Is she already in a hyperreality? 

Deepa: I think so! I think that's how she knows everything.

Cameron: That’s a long time to be in that state. 

Deepa: I think she's been in that state since Alison – the night of Alison’s murder, personally.

Cameron: Damn.

Deepa: Or she's been like, I don't know, something along those lines! [laughs]

Cameron: Interesting. We get our first time in the woods. It's not a party –

Deepa: You're right, you’re right.

Cameron: – but we do go to the woods. 

Deepa: We do go to the woods, and it is creepy. Although nothing actually happens except that Alison’s bracelet is there.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Which is one of two Alison bracelets, right? Is she buried with one?

Cameron: I think so?

Deepa: Or Emily puts one in – I – 

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: But she's already buried, so…isn't there where they have to go put something in a coffin, but – 

Cameron: Probably.

Deepa: Or did this already happen? There's a scene where they put something in a coffin, and Aria puts like – earrings or something?

Cameron: An earring, yeah. She puts the Meredith earring in there. 

Deepa: Yeah. And then it comes back, right? 

Cameron: Yeah. 

Deepa: But why – is that in Ali's coffin? But they already had a funeral.

Cameron: That doesn't make any sense, but I know exactly what you're talking about, so…

Deepa: [laughs] I guess we'll see, it's probably soon. 

Cameron: Do you think it's at – because they do that like bench thing? But I don't think they put keepsakes in. 

Deepa: Yeah, the bench thing is just like they talk about it in a room in the school, and Jenna shows up and they’re all horrified – ugh. It's going be a theme. Jenna just appears places, and that in itself is framed as a threat. Which is bullshit, because she is the one who's been harmed!

Cameron: Directly! By their behavior! Ugh.

Deepa: We got back here somehow, because we’re so mad about it. So mad about it.

Cameron: Ugh. Let's move on. I had a couple of contenders for worst dressed, but I did wind up making a decision.

Deepa: Okay, tell me.

Cameron: Aria's outfit when she is walking in the rain is fucking horrifying.

Deepa: Can you – is that the one with shorts and knee socks? 

Cameron: Nooo, but that one was also bad! I think I was just overwhelmed with the amount of belts over clothes that these two episodes had, and it was hard to concentrate. 

Deepa: It's true. She's not yet gotten into, like, every necklace. She's gotten into a lot of necklaces. 

Cameron: She had a feather earring at some point.

Deepa: There was a feather earring, oh yeah! Yeah. I went with either the shorts and knee socks, or the woods outfit with a green hat?

Cameron: It was so bad!

Deepa: And high socks? But, I had another contender, just because it was like inappropriate for the setting, which was Spencer's ruffly white shirt at Noel Kahn’s party, do you remember that? It's very Spencer. 

Cameron: It's very Spencer. 

Deepa: It was very the vibe of Spencer being Queen Elizabeth I in that Halloween episode – 

Cameron: Oh no! The ugliest costume in the world! [both laugh] It's like when she goes like to Noel Kahn’s party, whenever that is again – 

Deepa: [gasps] With Charlotte?

Cameron: – to drop off an application for college??

Deepa: Because Charlotte has connections??

Cameron: Ridiculous. 

Deepa: Speaking of which, we get the Spencer chaos of the essay, which is just – 

Cameron: Jesus Christ. 

Deepa: Like I get she's also trying to get back at Melissa a little bit, except that doesn't get back at Melissa!

Cameron: No.

Deepa: There's no consequence there that actually would affect Melissa if this came out, or even if it was good, right? Like she'd get some kudos. But I don't think Melissa would be less mad at her, you know?

Cameron: No! I guess, like, ChatGPT didn't exist – [laughs]

Deepa: If ChatGPT existed, it would probably just be A. [laughs]

Cameron: A is ChatGPT! [both laugh] I was like, ugh, because I read the first couple of sentences or whatever, and it just seems so bad. 

Deepa: The first sentence is defining a word by the dictionary. It's like the dictionary definition of a –

Cameron: It’s like: “Revolution. In other words, we have to understand…” 

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. It's not a good essay. And Spencer, you could write – like we were also kids who were stressed in high school about academics, right?

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: There's a certain point at which you can churn out bullshit if you've done it enough times, and it might not be the best thing in the world, but it is better than getting caught for plagiarizing your sister who is mad at you.

Cameron: Oh my god. I'm going move on to High Low, because we get introduced to that bullshit. 

Deepa: Yup, yup, yup, yup! And why is there no low?

Cameron: That’s what I was going to say! It's just high versus high, and then comparing highs. It doesn't make sense!

Deepa: It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. And it's just furthering what we talked about last time with Wren and Spencer having this the secret, you know, to get through the horribleness of the Hastings family. But Wren is here by choice. He doesn't have to be here.

Cameron: He doesn’t have to be here. And it's creepy. 

Deepa: It's fucking creepy.

Cameron: Yeah. I do – Melissa’s just so weird. We’re introduced to her father for the first time, and he's like, “I'll have the house cab,” and she's like, “I'll have the same as my father.” [both laugh] Hilarious! Wouldn't you just say “I'll have the same”?

Deepa: Yeah!

Cameron: The Rose Applewood – the Rosewood Grille – 

Deepa: They probably know who you are. The Apple Rose Grille? 

Cameron: Apple, Apple – I don’t know. But they don't need to know. They probably already know.

Deepa: They probably already know. “This is my father, the lawyer.” [both laugh]

Cameron: Okay, Melissa. Oh, god, Wren is fucking disgusting.

Deepa: He is. And I was surprised at how quickly things escalate with Wren. I had kind of forgotten it was so soon.

Cameron: It was so soon! Was it the second episode?

Deepa: It was the second episode that he kisses Spencer and then gets kicked out. 

Cameron: What the fuck? 

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. And I think he then comes back for only one more episode and then not for a while, then not until we get into Ian shit, you know?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It's kind of weird. Wren is just a haunting presence throughout the entire show, even though he doesn't actually get that much screen time. Like, he makes it all the way to the end…until he doesn't. 

Cameron: It's true. [laughs]

Deepa: Just dating…Hastingses…

Cameron: And adjacent.

Deepa: And adjacent. I don’t know how to name that sibling group.

Cameron: No. Yeah. When you had a crush on Wren at some point – 

Deepa: Noooo, you had to bring it up!

Cameron: – like very early, like it's been years, it's been lots of time!

Deepa: I know, I know, I was young.

Cameron: You were young, naïve, or whatever. Was it just his general presence, or was there like moment? Did you like the Britishness?

Deepa: [laughing] I think I liked the Britishness! 

Cameron: [laughs]

Deepa: Listen. I'm Indian, as you know, and I grew up in a family that did the whole “love your colonizer thing” thing for some reason! [both laugh for a while] We’re all Anglophiles. And it's disgusting! I think that's what happened.

Cameron: Wow, I’m so sorry! [both laugh] Okay, well, got to the bottom of that. 

Deepa: Oh my god. Yeah. Fucking Wren. Ugh. Fuck me. [both laugh] Yeah, I don’t know…maybe also just the Not Rosewood energy of him, right? Because everyone else except Maya and Wren, at this point, have very Rosewood energy. And they're both people who just come in from the outside, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I guess there’s Toby, as we were talking about, but in a different way. Maybe more of the breath of fresh air element to that in this very claustrophobic town. But it's bullshit, because he's actually just like everyone else in this town, which is abusive!

Cameron: Which is abusive!

Deepa: Basically!

Cameron: That is what unites them all!

Deepa: That is what unites them all. So many people. So many people. I was also thinking, why does Spencer have such bad taste, you know? When we get to the Toby bullshit – after that becomes the case, I think her only good boyfriend is Alex, and he's only there for, like, five episodes.

Cameron: Oh, Alex, yeah!

Deepa: Alex! He's going to be there, and cute! 

Cameron: We enjoy him. 

Deepa: Then he's going to go to Rock of Ages.

Cameron: Well, he’s got to go sing!

Deepa: He’s got to go sing! [laughs] Yeah, because if we ultimately think Toby is not a good boyfriend, which – 

Cameron: I think we have to. Yeah. 

Deepa: Yeah. So, Spencer's taste in men. Oh, no, you know who else we like? But nothing ever happens between them?

Cameron: Johnny Raymond?

Deepa: Johnny! The artist! [laughs]

Cameron: [laughs] Such a manic pixie dream boy.

Deepa: Spencer needs a manic pixie dream boy, a little bit! Except for being worried about being incarcerated. So.

Cameron: Yeah, she does have to…

Deepa: Oh my god. [laughs] I was thinking about what we got of Alison in these two episodes, and mainly what came to mind was, number one, every opportunity to flirt with Emily, right? Like in that scene where they're trying on dresses, she's like, “Do mine for me, Em?” or whatever? 

Cameron: [laughing] Yes.

Deepa: Yeah. But then, also – I'm just going to apologize to our listeners for the way we’re now referencing many other things that are not Pretty Little Liars that are foundational for us, but I think this is an interesting parallel! I guess this isn't the scene with Ali, but there's the whole – oh, no, it kind of is. It's when she chews out Hanna in front of them. She’s like, “I brought you into this group,” blah blah blah, and it made me think of, you know, Ali chose these people to be her friends, and she kind of has a reason for choosing each of them, right? 

Cameron: Aaaaah!

Deepa: Do you know what I'm going with this?

Cameron: You’re talking about How to Get Away With Murder! 

Deepa: Yeah! [both laugh very loudly] I’m talking about Annalise choosing the Keating Five!

Cameron: Okay, tell me a little bit more, I like it. I like it. 

Deepa: She just – so, Alison, we don't exactly – I don't know if we get explicit confirmation, but, like Hanna’s her project, right? Hanna’s her project, Spencer's her rival – they've known each other forever. Aria's, like, her quirky one. [both laugh] And Emily’s the one she’s in love with!

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But maybe also her jock one, I don't know.

Cameron: Does that map directly onto the Keating Five, would you say? 

Deepa: I don't think so. I just think the sentiments are interesting, right? Like Annalise chooses – Annalise chooses Wes for emotional reasons, and…Laurel for Frank, question mark??

Cameron: Yep, Laurel’s chosen for Frank.

Deepa: Laurel’s chosen for Frank, ew. Asher for his dad, which is Spencer-ish, like, connections. And Connor never figures out what he was chosen for – 

Cameron: Never figures it out! Awww, yeah.

Deepa: Am I forgetting one?

Cameron: Michaela.

Deepa: Oh, Michaela! I think Michaela is chosen because she's really…good. 

Cameron: Yeah, I think it's just like she’s really exceptional.

Deepa: The only one who’s chosen for being exceptional. So. I don't think it maps on exactly. But I think it's interesting that they have this – and I think – Connor goes through this whole crisis about why he was picked, and he tries to drop out of law school, blah, blah, blah. And it sort of mirrors, to me, when Hanna – how Hanna has a crisis when Ali comes back, you know? It's not the exact same, because she kind of knows why she was picked: to be a project. But now she's like, who am I without Alison? Or, I guess she knows who she is without Alison – who is she with Alison?

Cameron: That’s very funny. [both laugh]

Deepa: I'm glad you immediately picked up on where I was going with this!

Cameron: Sorry!

Deepa: We talk a lot about the parallels between PLL and [How to Get Away With] Murder! They're both incredibly messy. They both have this very complicated plot system that, every time we have rewatched, we forget the plots past, like, the first season? I think we can keep track of the first season.

Cameron: Kind of? The timelines are all over the place…

Deepa: Exactly. Yeah. 

Cameron: So funny.

Deepa: Except PLL does not have a Viola Davis. I’m sorry. They don't have anyone to compete.

Cameron: No. Wow.

Deepa: Oh, they're both in Pennsylvania!

Cameron: They’re both in Pennsylvania! [laughs] Yeah, it's – I feel like they say it a couple of times in these first episodes, like, “We were friends because of Ali.”

Deepa: Mhm, exactly! Yeah yeah yeah.

Cameron: Like what you were saying – they weren't drawn together on their own accord, and they didn't maybe know each other before, besides being people from Rosewood, they didn't know… which is interesting! And so I think her disappearance and her, we assume, death, does bring them together again, right? And this is where we pick them up. But they don't have a thing without her.

Deepa: Right.

Cameron: I mean, they build a thing. They build a thing.

Deepa: They build a thing, but they don't now have a thing without her. And it's interesting, too, because Spencer is the one who's known for the longest. So presumably, in terms of Spencer's friendships, [Ali] is the biggest loss because she's been around forever, even though they have this really contentious relationship. But – we talk about this a lot – Spencer doesn't have other friends, and it appears that she has not had other friends the entire year that happens between the disappearance – like at least Aria went to Iceland? Aria also doesn’t have friends. She just has Ezra.

Cameron: Ugh, gross!!

Deepa: But she went to Iceland, so for that year, before she had Ezra, presumably she had friends in there? [laughs] Why don't they have friends? Why don't they have friends outside of their relationships, which are garbage?

Cameron: I mean, Hanna does, but it's complicated!

Deepa: But Hanna has multiple friends! Hanna has Mona, Hanna’s going to have Lucas. 

Cameron: Hanna has friends.

Deepa: Hanna’s friendly! Emily has Toby. 

Cameron: I mean, would you want to be friends with Aria? [both laugh]

Deepa: Good point, good point!

Cameron: Like imagine that, trying to hang out!

Deepa: [laughs] I feel like have been friends with Spencers. [both laugh] Not as chaotic as her, not as chaotic as her. But. 

Cameron: Oh my god.

Deepa: Can we call Andrew a friend? I mean, I guess he's a friend in the same way Lucas is a friend.

Cameron: Yeah, like, in love with you?

Deepa: In love with you and weird about it…like will do anything for you, really weirdly, including getting framed for murder.

Cameron: Classic friend behavior. [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh man.

Cameron: Oh, I was thinking…we're talking about Spencer are being competitive, which is one of the main things of her personality. 

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And Maya is looking at Emily's trophies, or whatever, and is like, “Oh, I see what you and Spencer have in common.” And Emily’s like, “I don't care about winning.” [both laugh] Hilarious!

Deepa: I love that so much. I love the scene where Maya meets Spencer, and where they're just outlining these different things about their personalities. Emily’s like, “If I've done well, then, I feel good.” 

Cameron: That's like a test answer, you know. Like, “Would you rather?” Or, “Is it okay if you –”?

Deepa: It's like, “What's your biggest flaw?”, right? “Sometimes I don't win, and that's okay. I'm fine. But Spencer just wants to win for winning.”

Cameron: It’s like they’re just creating a personality test chart for each of them. Like, “This one is –” 

Deepa: Well, it's especially funny in the in the context of sports, right? Because the sports are about winning. Arguably academics, maybe you don't have to be, except for when Spencer joins the academic decathlon or whatever. But, like. Sports are about winning!

Cameron: Sports are about winning. 

Deepa: Do you agree with that, resident sports expert? 

Cameron: That sports are about winning? Oooh. I think sports – yeah, I mean, I think winning is very important. I think – I'm trying to adjust my expectations currently about a season that's happening right now. So I'm thinking that sports are also about building things. 

Deepa: Are sports also about the friends we made along the way?

Cameron: Sports are definitely about the friends we made along the way. 

Deepa: For this season of the Seattle Storm, yes, it's going to be about the friends we made along the way. I haven't watched any games yet. 

Cameron: This is a mild tangent, but we played New York last night in Seattle. And it was just sad.

Deepa: Yeah. Has New York got their shit together?

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: Okay. I mean, of course they have, they’re a fucking super team. 

Cameron: Yeah, they've got their shit together. 

Deepa: Stewie. Stewie. Jonquel!!

Cameron: Stewie was talking about how she didn't want to play without Sue. And I'm like, but people have to play without Sue and without you. So like…okay?

Deepa: Oh my god. Like how do you think Jewell feels?

Cameron: Jewell is putting the team on her back.

Deepa: Yeah. And, I mean, just in terms of like her – she's the one who had more of a playing partnership with Stewie, right? Obviously Sue – Sue had a connection with everyone, though, right? Like they were the one-two punch, Stewie and Jewell. Ugh.

Cameron: So it’s hard.

Deepa: Sports!

Cameron: Yeah, we haven't gotten sports yet. I'm excited for when we do get swimming.

Deepa: Yes!

Cameron: I am not excited that that means we get Paige.

Deepa: We get Paige…and we sadly get no sports but Ian for field hockey. We just get coach who is horrible, and no actual sports, as far as I can – like I think that – there’s a hockey stick. There's a hockey stick that they find, that’s Melissa’s. 

Cameron: And that’s all.

Deepa: That’s it. Like I think other than that, we've seen Spencer play as much hockey as she’ll every play. 

Cameron: That's so funny.

Deepa: [laughs] Yeah, we will get Paige. We are not Paige fans. Sorry, listeners. 

Cameron: Sorry, Heather.

Deepa: Sorry to one of the two people who might actually listen to this! [laughs] We can get into that later, though.

Cameron: That’s fine, yeah.

Deepa: I don’t think we hate Paige.

Cameron: We don’t.

Deepa: Yeah, we are just…unimpressed by Paige, I would say. So.

Cameron: [laughs] Did you have a best outfit?

Deepa: Oh! Oh oh oh. Let me see my notes. Did I have one for the second – okay, I had a few, so you can help me evaluate. In the second episode, Hanna has, like, a blazer with a pale green top and shorts that I was really into. She also has a tiny leather jacket. It, like, cuts off at the boobs – 

Cameron: You like the tiny leather jacket??

Deepa: [laughs] I liked the tiny leather jacket.

Cameron: I hated the tiny leather jacket!

Deepa: You did?

Cameron: I’m so sorry!

Deepa: Oh, we're on – wow! We're not in accord, that's interesting. 

Cameron: It was so small!

Deepa: Then the other thing – Hanna had like a – I just want to call it a mermaid shirt? I don't know how to describe it. It's blue, and – it was in the third episode. 

Cameron: Yeah, it was good.

Deepa: It's either a mermaid shirt, or it's a little bit like the dress…[laughing] that Julie Andrews wears to the ball in The Sound of Music? Which the Baroness is upset about?

Cameron: Oh my god! [laughs]

Deepa: Maybe just a little bit. It doesn't have the flowy arms. 

Cameron: No, it doesn't have the arms. 

Deepa: It's sleeveless. The Maria hot dress. 

Cameron: The Maria hot dress is a good one. She's wandering around the fucking gardens and whatnot. 

Deepa: Yeah, about to dance with – um. Oh my god. Friedrich? No, first she dances with Kurt, and then with Friedrich. [both laugh]

Cameron: Yeah, a lot of Hanna outfits were fun. I enjoy both Hanna and Ashley just wearing blazers in the morning. 

Deepa: Yes, yes, very fun. 

Cameron: I think my favorite outfit was Meredith’s business dress that she wears to…

Deepa: That she wears to the gallery opening?

Cameron: [laughing] Yeah!

Deepa: [laughs] It's just gray. 

Cameron: It's just gray and it’s just so funny. 

Deepa: It's so business. It’s so business. Yeah, yeah, gray, and, you know, tube toppy. And very business. Yeah, I was going to ask you, are we evaluating people outside the Liars? I guess you've answered my question. 

Cameron: Oh! Yeah, I didn't feel inspired by anything, really, so I took to Meredith. 

Deepa: That’s fair, that’s fair. I think they're still settling into their fashion, right? Like Aria’s has gotten a little worse already. It's going to get so much worse.

Cameron: Yeah, there's suggestions of it already.

Deepa: I feel like Spencer's maybe at where she is going to stay. Emily has not yet debuted a shoulder-less – like off-the-shoulder sweater.

Cameron: [groans] Oh my godddd.

Deepa: She had a pretty gay outfit at one point, a button-down that I thought was pretty gay.

Cameron: Yeah, her fashion is hilarious. I don't – they don't know what they're doing with her. It's very funny.

Deepa: They want to make her gay, but not that gay?

Cameron: Not that gay.

Deepa: Oh man.

Cameron: I had a question. So when when Maya meet Spencer, she says something like, “Yeah, I’m the new girl who moved to the dead girl's house,” and everyone's like, “Oh my god, I can't believe you said that”, and she says, “I must be lacking the same insensitivity chip as Brad Pitt.”

Deepa: [laughs] I don't remember that reference. Do you?

Cameron: No, I have no idea what we're talking about! Like in my mind, we just learn in this current timeline that Brad Pitt’s an ass. But, like, just now.

Deepa: Yes. Yes. No, yeah, this is from 2010, right? 

Cameron: Right, so what the fuck are we talking about? 

Deepa: And presumably it's something that he did that was, like, quirky and bad. 

Cameron: Not, like, abuse your wife and kids.

Deepa: Exactly. Yeah, no. Weird. Weird. I also didn't remember what that was. Yeah. For a minute I was like, did she mean Tom Cruise? But even that was earlier. That reference is earlier. So. Before the Scientology happened. Or before we knew about the Scientology. 

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: But no, I don't know what Brad Pitt did in 2010.

Cameron: Listeners, if you know, reach out to us!

Deepa: I think I do know what Beyonce's video was. 

Cameron: [laughs] Yes, we do. 

Deepa: It must be “Single Ladies”, right? 

Cameron: Yeah, that Em watched too much of?

Deepa: That Em watched too much of. That was either 2009 or 2010. Actually, that checks out because the show starts in 2010, and it's a year before! So it was 2009.

Cameron: There you go. Good job. 

Deepa: I still have some of my memory for when things happen.

Cameron: Ugh, I don't want to talk about Fitz, but I want to talk about English class. Is that okay? 

Deepa: Yes. Well, can we start with him writing “Innocence” on the board? 

Cameron: Yes, that's what I want to talk about! What the hell! [both laugh]

Deepa: My notes literally say “Ezra writing ‘Innocence’ on the board, throwing up face.” [both laugh]

Cameron: And their assignment is just to write what character is innocent.

Deepa: [scoffs] It's such a bad – it’s such a – it's a horrible analysis of To Kill A Mockingbird, right? Like it's conflating so many different things. There's the talk about childlike innocence. There's the talk about legal definitions of innocence. There's the talk about whiteness and whiteness protection, right? and I think – sorry, we're getting into the actual analysis now! [Cameron laughs] But I think, given all we now know about Harper Lee, it's all even worse. 

Cameron: Yeah, truly.

Deepa: It's like a very good metaphor for PLL, actually, in how horrible it is to Black people. But yeah, innocence. What is innocence to Ezra, right now, who is stalking and manipulating – 

Cameron: Teens!

Deepa: – a sixteen-year-old – yeah, yeah, multiple teens, multiple teens – for the sake of exploiting them, like actually exploiting them for money. 

Cameron: Yes! He wants to have a big career thing.

Deepa: He wants to write a book, and he will eventually. It won’t be this one. But it will be also an exploitative book.

Cameron: And it's just like – that dude is rich as fuck. He doesn't need to be doing any of this, you know? 

Deepa: He doesn’t! Like he could just write about being rich, and probably his mom could get it sold, you know?

Cameron: Right? The motivations here are just all bad.

Deepa: Absolutely. But you know, I think it does also make sense that someone who would do that is really rich and entitled, right? I think there's this sense of, like – number one, he has the whole rich kid “I need to get away from my horrible family and make it on my own, so I'm going to sell my grandfather's car”, as if that's making it on my own. 

Cameron: [laughs] And shorten my name! 

Deepa: Exactly. [laughing] Right? God. Yeah. But he also has the entitlement that comes with it. And, you know, the overweening power that comes with it.

Cameron: God.

Deepa: I feel like there was another To Kill A Mockingbird thing that I was thinking about. What was it? Well, it comes in the third episode, but I feel like they don't actually talk about it that much there.

Cameron: Well, they're all reading it.

Deepa: Yeah, that’s true.

Cameron: And Aria's super into it. And Byron is – 

Deepa: She’s talking to Byron about it.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And Aria’s like – sorry, Ella's like, “Oh, you're your father's daughter.” But doesn't Ella also teach English? 

Cameron: Not yet. Right now she runs an alternative gallery!

Deepa: [laughs] Presumably she studied it in order to become a substitute teacher.

Cameron: I don’t know, we don't know what qualifications are required for these positions. 

Deepa: That is very true, especially if Ezra – well, I was going to say, especially if he doesn't have a Master’s degree. But, also, he could have been recruited in a [laughing] Teach For America kind of scheme – 

Cameron: [laughs] To – [laughs]

Deepa: – to Rosewood High, where they desperately need teachers. [laughs]

Cameron: Okay, Rosewood High is a public school. right? 

Deepa: It is, yeah, yeah.

Cameron: Okay. That's interesting, I think. I – I don’t know where I’m going with this.

Deepa: It's a rich people public school. 

Cameron: It’s a rich people public school, yeah. They have, like, assorted wraps for lunch.

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. They, like, have a courtyard that you can just – that just has a coffee stand or something, like an espresso stand.

Cameron: That’s true.

Deepa: It's 2010 and everyone has laptops…like, hopefully a lot of people had laptops in high school in 2010. But I don't think that was true across America, across class.

Cameron: No. [both laugh]

Deepa: Yeah, it is a public school. Yeah. I don’t know where I was going with that. 

Cameron: Eh. Hmm. 

Deepa: We also got the first appearance of the pretentious black-and-white movies – 

Cameron: Oh, goddamn it. 

Deepa: – that everyone seems to watch? Like definitely Ezra and Aria the most. The scene in the theater is so awful! [groans]

Cameron: Fucking – what are you doing, Ella?

Deepa: Ella. Ella! 

Cameron: Yeah, you both love obscure nonsense movies, congrats. That means you're meant to be together.

Deepa: Definitely. That means your, like, super salacious relationship is just going to be you in Ezra’s apartment watching movies. We've talked about this, right? How they're both horrible and incredibly boring? 

Cameron: So boring! Ugh, remember the time that they – Aria’s upset, or someone's upset, that they can't take pictures together, so they make little like – 

Deepa: [gasps] Paper bags over their heads! 

Cameron: Yes, to take selfies!

Deepa: God. Disgusting. Yeah.

Cameron: I just – okay. I have a question. So I was thinking about it – I mean, we're old now. But like – 

Deepa: We're in our thirties, to be clear!

Cameron: Sorry, yeah, we're ancient. I don't know. I was thinking about Aria getting into a relationship with her teacher…that's not something I would have been able to not tell my friends about.

Deepa: Right?? Yeah.

Cameron: How? How would – I wouldn't ever – like what do you mean?

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: And I think that's kind of always baffled me, and always been like – she places him above them a lot of times. And I'm not saying that she's only to blame for this, like she's in a fucked up situation. She's a child. But it's kind of astonishing to me that she doesn't tell anyone.

Deepa: Yeah, she doesn't tell anyone. Yeah. And I mean, I do think it speaks to what you were naming earlier, which is that they're not that close at this point in the show. 

Cameron: That’s a good point, yeah.

Deepa: And the whole secrets thing, right –  like there's a long – this continues, frankly, but mostly with Aria, but with the others, too: there's various times where they keep secrets that they really don't have to keep from each other, right? But Aria’s is the biggest like burden that she's not sharing with anyone, at this point in the show.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But yeah, no, I can't imagine that – being so incredibly isolated by that? Ugh. Yeah. I don't know. I guess – people I knew had crushes on teachers at school sometimes, right – 

Cameron: That’s a normal thing!

Deepa: – but, like, everyone knew about it right? Like it was obvious, and obviously nothing ever happened. I mean, it happens sometimes, which is horrifying. But it wasn't like this big secret. It was like – 

Cameron: “Ooooooh!” 

Deepa: Yeah, exactly! [both laugh] It’s like how Mona behaves around Fitz, right? It would be that level of – some people would be a little weird, and the teacher might get a little flustered or whatever, but there was nothing actually there. So. 

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Ugh.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, we're going to come back to keep coming back to this, but – just the way this is utterly normalized. And I think…I have some stuff I'll say for another episode, because it's going to be long. But this perception of – we have a perception currently that teenagers and the next generation are very anti-sex. This relates to a lot of other things. 

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: I think we can get into this another time, because obviously I have a lot of thoughts! But one of the things I always think about, when I think about how media impacts our own perceptions of sexuality, is the constant pattern of teen shows having adults who abuse teenagers, right? And, like, this perception that teenagers are anti-sex for not liking that.

Cameron: Phew!

Deepa: Okay, sorry, broad topic. We can come back to it. 

Cameron: I would love to come back to that, because…being anti-that that does not mean you're anti-sex. 

Deepa: Yeah. And I’m not saying there isn't also this other mentality of right-wing puritan shit. But we don't acknowledge that there is a lot of stuff that is normalized in media that is really fucked up. And like – really, really fucked up. And continuing into where we are now, right? Like continuing into fucking Original Sin. Which, like – 

Cameron: Oh, god.

Deepa: We thought we were going to get through a PLL show that didn't have an adult – or a teen show that didn't have an adult abuse a teenager. And technically, I guess we did, because it didn't happen to the main characters, but it normalized Ezra and Aria.

Cameron: It normalized Ezra and Aria, and it made them legitimize their relationship even more. Yeah.

Deepa: Exactly. Exactly. I think again we see this like equivalence of Byron and Aria – 

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: – both in their connections, but also in their relationships, and their – and and and oh my god, Byron had a line that I wrote down about not telling Ella. Because Aria gets a little okay with things, right? He said, “I don't like to lie, but sometimes telling the truth is worse.” Which feels like the motto of this entire show, despite the fact that it came out of Byron Montgomery’s mouth! [both laugh]

Cameron: “Sometimes telling the truth is worse.” Oh man.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Side note: the Montgomerys do eat. We do see them eat. 

Cameron: They do eat! 

Deepa: Yeah. So. That's good, I guess?

Cameron: Yeah, no, I was happy. They had a good amount of food there. 

Deepa: They had a good amount – they ordered like we order takeout, except there are four of them.

Cameron: Well, Mike's got to – he's a growing boy, you know. 

Deepa: Mike is a growing boy. No, what I was trying to say is, we probably order the same amount of food for two of us. [both laugh] But that's not because the Montgomerys aren't eating enough. I think we order more food than we can eat. 

Cameron: Well, yeah.

Deepa: We want choice! 

Cameron: We want choice, we want to feel…I don't know. Okay. So they got kung pao for Aria. But they didn't say what it was. 

Deepa: They didn't say what it was. Yeah, so I don't know when we tip into vegetarianism with Aria.

Cameron: It could be tofu, it could be broccoli…

Deepa: They did not specify. Also, I was so right about Aria calling Ella “Ella” at one point. Did you pick up on this? 

Cameron: No! When?

Deepa: Let me see, it's in – I think it's the beginning of the third episode, or it's – it’s whatever conversation – I think it is in the second episode – whatever conversation where Ella makes the fatphobic comment about Hanna, and Aria is like, “Right? She looks so different!”, or whatever. And then when she leaves, she says, “Bye, Ella.”

Cameron: Aaah! [both laugh]

Deepa: I think maybe that's the only time. 

Cameron: That's so funny. Because, like – what is it, when they're at the the fucking movie theater? Ella was like, “We're an informal family, call me Ella.”

Deepa: “Call me Ella.” Yeah. Which, like, maybe is a normal thing to say to a teacher, but like – that you’ve just met? I don't know. I don't know. But. Yeah.

Cameron: Maybe that's a normal thing to say to a teacher, but you don't have to invite him to sit with you at the movies.

Deepa: No, no, you don’t, especially the first time you're meeting, and especially when your kid is a teenager. Like when I was like in elementary school, my parents were sometimes friends with my teachers, to the point of inviting them over for dinner and stuff. 

Cameron: Sure!

Deepa: But I was, like, eight.

Cameron: And there were a million seats open in that movie theater!

Deepa: That’s true! They didn't come with him.

Cameron: No, it wasn't like, “Oh, shit, there's nowhere else to sit, I guess we can sit together.”

Deepa: I guess Ella just felt bad that he was there alone, but then she could have made them move over so that he sat next to her, right?

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: It's like – especially if you're looking from Ella’s perspective – your daughter is a little flustered around this cute teacher, right? And you're teasing her about it, and then you make him sit next to her and make her feel weird for the whole movie! Which is not exactly what's happening, but that's what Ella thinks is happening.

Cameron: Right! Like, you're not doing a “cool mom” thing.

Deepa: No! You're doing, I don't know, a “this is really awkward, Mom” thing.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: “This is really awkward, Ella.” I'm sorry, because – 

Cameron: Yeah, we can't call her “mom”. [both laugh]

Deepa: I don't know where we get to “mom”.

Cameron: I had a question – [crosstalk]

Deepa: Oh, sorry, you go first. 

Cameron: I had a question about something Aria said. So they're all at Noel Kahn’s party, obviously – 

Deepa: Noel Kahn’s party! That’s the cabin, right? 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. Okay.

Cameron: Everyone's trying to bang, really great. It seems like Mona maybe does bang, which, good for her. 

Deepa: Nice!

Cameron: But, you know, she has some other things to do. But Hanna's like, “Maybe we need to talk about this later, when it's just four of us,” or whatever. And Aria is like, “I don't even know what ‘just us’ means anymore.” What the fuck does that mean? 

Deepa: I think she just means surveillance by A, right? A could be listening at any time. 

Cameron: Ohhhh, okay, that that makes sense, it's like a literal – like, we don't know who else is listening.

Deepa: Yeah. What do you think it meant?

Cameron: I don't know! Like it was some – I don't know, what's just – like, “What’s our dynamic?”

Deepa: Oh, okay, like interpersonal something. 

Cameron: Yeah!

Deepa: No, I think I think it was establishing this “we’re always being watched” thing – 

Cameron: Which is true. 

Deepa: Which is true, and, yeah, will continue to be true forever. 

Cameron: Okay, that makes a lot more sense. I was like, oh, what? Yeah, just reading into things…I don't know.

Deepa: Speaking of the party – well, I have one unrelated thought that I think is funny, hopefully you will think it's funny – that when we, you know, get to see scenes of Hanna and Sean dating, and Sean being the pastor's son, I had this idea that Hanna and Ashley both basically try to date pastors, and it doesn't work because they’re too chaotic!

Cameron: Yes! Oh my god, because Ashley’s like, “We're trying to come to church.”

Deepa: Exactly! Exactly! [both laugh] And then the only time she does start going to church is when Pastor Ted shows up. But then she's chaotic and has sex with Jason! That's like the version of Hanna crashing – 

Cameron: Crashing his car?

Deepa: – crashing Sean’s car! [both laugh] I don't know why they think they need the good boys, pastors, when clearly that's not actually what they want. And fortunately, Caleb is actually like good good, not good boy.

Cameron: Yeahhhh.

Deepa: But Ashley.

Cameron: Ashley!

Deepa: Ashley. Maybe it's because Peter – not Peter, oh my god, I always forget his name. Is his name Nick?

Cameron: Ted?

Deepa: Tom?

Cameron: Tom! [both laugh]

Deepa: Who’s – Nick is Paige’s father, Nick McCullers.

Cameron: Nick McCullers, right. 

Deepa: I always get their names mixed up.

Cameron: Yelling about lesbianism in the cafeteria…

Deepa: Yelling about lesbianism in the cafeteria, and Fitz having a hero moment or whatever. 

Cameron: Gross!

Deepa: Very gross. Incredibly gross. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's because Tom is an asshole, so they're both like looking for a different type of guy. 

Cameron: Ew.

Deepa: Fortunately Hanna finds one. 

Cameron: Yeah! The best.

Deepa: The best. Okay. But where I was going with the party, and Hanna, and Sean – in my memory, I was dreading that scene where they're making out, because in my memory Hanna was being really, really pushy about sex, and like – she kind of is. But she's mostly – like he says, “This isn't the right place,” she’s mostly like, “When do you want to do it?” 

Cameron: Yeah…

Deepa: Or, like, “When is the right place?” Not so much – like it was less coercive than I thought it was, and I was a little bit relieved. It's still not great, but in my memory it was very much like she was pushing him past his boundaries and using – I mean, not using, because I think it's real – her feelings about whether he actually is attracted to her or not as part of that. But I felt a little bit more sympathetic towards her in the way that scene was actually handled.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I don’t know, did you have that memory of that scene being – like her being coercive or pushy? I mean, “coercive” is a little strong, but pushy. 

Cameron: She's definitely pushy, I would say. I mean, it's just a build up to it, I think?

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Like, you know, when they're studying, and she’s like, “Is this waiting thing you, or your dad's idea?”, or like Jesus’s idea, or whatever. But like…yeah, it didn't feel like – I mean we have the comparison between the Ben and Emily pushy, and so it feels a lot less bad compared to that, I guess?

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. 

Cameron: I mean, I don't know. She's obviously incredibly butt-hurt, and I don't think even that drunk, but upset-drives and crashes the car.

Deepa: Exactly. I don't think she's drunk at all. And I think, obviously, her reaction is really disproportionate. But I just remembered the scene as being even worse, which, like, says a lot about this show, that this was not – that this was less terrible than I thought? 

Cameron: Which usually doesn’t happen, yeah.

Deepa: Which usually doesn't happen! Yeah. Yeah. So. And, you know, the whole feeling unattractive thing is real. It's just she's handling it terribly. 

Cameron: Right, it's like using the – emotionally kind of manipulating. 

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Okay, that was one thought. I had – I'm scrolling through my notes – I only have one more thought, but if you have more thoughts, I would love to keep going. My last thought is just that – this is a short one – it's just that everyone knows lipstick colors.

Cameron: Oh my god, what's up with that? “Is that Amber Rose? It looks great on you.” Is that…?

Deepa: I don't remember what Ali’s is called, but we're going to get it eventually! Is that Ali’s color? Was “Amber Rose” Ali’s color, and that's why we're hearing about it now?

Cameron: Oh, I don't know. 

Deepa: Because Hanna is like, you know, Ali’s stand in? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that was just my thought: I don't know how people know lipstick colors, but…

Cameron: Good for them. I wanted to talk a little bit more about Mona, because there’s a couple moments where we get into our “Mona’s in love with Hanna” theory. 

Deepa: Yes! Oh my god. 

Cameron: Because she says – Hanna’s talking about the outfit she bought at the store, and Mona says, “This is going to sound totally gay, but if I saw you in that outfit, I’d think about doing you.” [both laugh]

Deepa: Which is such a 2010 way of saying it too! [both laugh]

Cameron: And then, I think, Mona asking about Hanna's sex life is supposed to just put more pressure on Hannah, to kind of create the situation that happens at the party. But in my mind, I'm like, Mona's just invested. She wants to know what's happening.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, exactly, she’s like, “Give me the details.”

Cameron: She’s just interested! [both laugh]

Deepa: Yeah. Exactly. Because Mona is really used to watching from afar. And there's a very – I mean, this is obvious, but like the voyeuristic element of being A, apart from the manipulative element, there's like obviously some sense of fulfillment she gets out of watching everything happen, and then making it happen that way. Yeah, definitely, asking about Hanna’s sex life is right in line with that.

Cameron: Right? [both laugh]

Deepa: I think she is more invested in what Hanna does with other people, with someone like Sean, who is not a threat to Mona, right? Like that's what is different with Caleb. 

Cameron: Absolutely.

Deepa: Caleb is a threat to Mona in multiple ways.

Cameron: Whoo! a) He hates her, which is unfortunate.

Deepa: a) He hates her. b) He's great.

Cameron: b) He’s great!

Deepa: And, like, good for Hanna. 

Cameron: And like Hanna actually…yeah. [both laugh]

Deepa: So. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, Mona! Mona, Mona, Mona. [sighs] Just so gay. [laughs loudly] I’m sorry, the thing that just came to my mind is that time that Mona and Caleb have to kiss!

Cameron: I love that so much. Like it makes no sense, but you gotta do it! [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh my god, can Caleb get here already? Ugh. We have to meet Lucas first. And then we have to go through that awful episode where they're at Homecoming, and, like, Hanna keeps dancing with Lucas, and we just don't care that Sean is butthurt about it.

Cameron: Oh, yeah, I couldn’t give any fucks about that.

Deepa: But we have to – we’re going to have to sit through it. [Cameron sighs] Sean lasts way longer than I want him to, or ever remember. Ben, at least, is gone, so that was quick. [both laugh]

Cameron: Bye, Ben.

Deepa: Bye, Ben. [both laugh] The heterosexual excuse, an unknowing beard. He’s gone. I guess he's still friends with Noel Kahn or whatever. 

Cameron: But I don't think we see him ever again. 

Deepa: I don’t think we see him again…yeah. I think we just have Noel and Sean hanging out, and then maybe at some point, Noel and Mike hanging out? Is that real?

Cameron: Noel and Mike hang out? 

Deepa: No, maybe that's not real. Mike hangs out with someone in their year, at one point, because they play a sport together.

Cameron: Hmm…

Deepa: Eh. Anyway, we'll see. We love Mike.

Cameron: We love Mike. We support him.

Deepa: We didn't really get much of him in this episode, and we certainly didn't get any – like in this alternate universe where we don't know who A is right now, we didn't get any A hints for Mike right now. [both laugh]

Cameron: Oh, yeah, where we pretend that Mike is A.

Deepa: Where we pretend that we think Mike is A.

Cameron: Oh, yes.

Deepa: Which is what we did the first time when we watched this.

Cameron: It’s one of our bits.

Deepa: [laughing] Oh man.

Cameron: God.

Deepa: I think I've gone through most of what I had. Do you have anything else?

Cameron: No, I don't think so. I…yeah, I just think I'm surprised, kind of like you said, that things happen so quickly, like we just – 

Deepa: Like really climactic things.

Cameron: Yeah! Like, okay, Wren’s gone, Wren – 

Deepa: Wren’s gone. You know, one thing – actually, you were talking last time about how the things that they're blackmailed for early on are not their fault for the most part? Except the Jenna thing, which why it’s funny that they aren't immediately blackmailed for that. But I kind of wonder if things are happening fast to give them more secrets, right? 

Cameron: Aaaah!

Deepa: Like the next thing Spencer is going to be blackmailed for is the essay, right? 

Cameron: A thing she actually did.

Deepa: A thing she actually did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Aria’s is going to continue to be the same. But. [Cameron groans] Yeah. So maybe that's a piece of why it's, like, rocketing on right now.

Cameron: Yeah. Because it's weird to blackmail – like Mona, come on, come up with something else. [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Question: do you have a chickpea recipe for us today? 

Cameron: No, I have a chickpea update. 

Deepa: Oh, chickpea update! Yes, that that works as well. 

Cameron: So, my bean newsletter that I subscribe to – I ordered two beans from it. [both laugh]

Deepa: I'm very glad they deliver where you are. 

Cameron: They do not! 

Deepa: They do not?? [both laughing] Did they go to your parents’ – one of your parents’ places?

Cameron: Yeah, I’m going to go get them this weekend, and then I will be trying – and I don't – I'm not usually a dried bean person, so we're going to try some things. It's going to get cool. 

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah! Well, you don't have an Instant Pot anymore in your house, so.

Cameron: That's true. 

Deepa: I don’t know if any of your parents have Instant Pots.

Cameron: No, I don't believe they do. But I will try some things with some mini chickpeas – 

Deepa: Mini chickpeas!

Cameron: – and also some black chickpeas. 

Deepa: I think I've seen black chickpeas before. I don't think I've seen mini chickpeas before. So. Okay. Okay.

Cameron: So that's my bean update. 

Deepa: Okay! Yeah, I think we can wrap it up from there.

Cameron: Great!

Deepa: Since you opened us – [crosstalk] I'm sorry. Yeah, go ahead.

Cameron: No, I think we should try to say it together. 

Deepa: Oh, okay, okay. Great. [both laughing]

Cameron: It’s just going to be funnier, right?

Deepa: It is going to be funnier. Thank you, everyone, for listening, and – 

Cameron and Deepa: Don't forget the chickpeas!

[both laugh]   

Deepa: This is like trying to sing happy birthday on Zoom with a bunch of people...