Episodes 2.18 & 2.19: “You Can’t Be a Shark If You’re Toothless”

We stand in full support of Palestinian liberation & believe that Israel should end its genocidal violence and occupation. If you don’t agree, please fuck off.

Content notes: discussion of Lolita from 40:30 to 57:35, which includes discussions of rape of a child by adults, victim-blaming, and a brief mention of sadomasochism 

Today we cover episodes 2.18, “A Kiss Before Lying”, and 2.19, “The Naked Truth”. We talked about lying (surprise!), Noel Kahn’s thesis on gender, Hollis College trying to colonize New Orleans, and the Jason reveal we’ve been waiting for. We once again get very sad and mad about Maya’s storyline. In this house, we believe that bees are not animals, glaciers melt faster now, and MMA is gay. 

Theme song by Ashok R. Chandran. You can also read the episode transcript.

Chickpeas Oh My Gosh: The Easiest Curry by celebrity guest Hannah!

Fashion Analysis: Our worst and best outfits, plus some others we talked about!

Cameron Gets Academic On Us

• What we know as “revenge porn” should actually be called non-consenual distribution of intimate images 
• The You’re Wrong About episode debunking myths about teens sexting

Deepa’s Literary Analysis

• Vladimir Nabokov’s Lolita has a lot of relevance for PLL, and Vivian Darkbloom is not only an anagram but a very minor character in the book who is... the writing partner of an abuser
• Everyone in Agatha Christie books has an office gun
• We didn’t discuss this in the episode, but A Kiss Before Dying is in fact a crime thriller novel about a man who scams and murders women

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL

• The episode of New Girl called “Girl Fight” (lol)
• We hate John Mulaney and his bit about teenagers bullying him or whatever
• Floodlines is a really good eight-episode investigative podcast about Hurricane Katrina and anti-Black racism
• “Glaciers, gender, and science: A feminist glaciology framework for global environmental change” (Carey et al. 2016) is probably the only climate change thing Deepa will discuss on this pod

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to help Rozan and Aboud, two young people in Gaza, escape genocide with their families. You can find multiple donation options at oldcowcreative.com!

Transcript

Cameron: Okay, okay, everybody welcome back to your favorite pretty little liars. Podcast. I'm Cameron.

Deepa: I'm Deepa.

Cameron: And today we are talking about episode 18, a kiss before lying and episode 19. The naked truth 

Deepa: I didn't think about the titles at all, but is a kiss before lying a play on something like a kiss before dying, or something? 

Cameron: I think it’s a Kiss before dying, but I don't know where that originates from.

Deepa: I mean, there was a lot of lying and truth in these episodes.

Cameron: So much lying.

Deepa: Even More than normal. Maybe.

Cameron: Not usually as coordinated an effort to lie to one member of the group.

Deepa: Yep. Yep.

Cameron: It's yeah, like.

Deepa: Like. It was funny, because in my mind, you know, the the times when they lie to each other are like mostly aria, which She was doing again in this episode, which doesn't make any sense to me. Why, she? like Ezra, isn't even trying to get her to lie to her friends about it, but she's lying to her friends about it.

Cameron: I think. Is she just like trying to make Spencer not feel as bad? It's like very confusing, like they're in this together. They're like.

Deepa: I don't know.

Cameron: That's what I got. She was like solidarity.

Deepa: So that I can like make these cryptic comments about like, how sometimes you just need to lie to your friends.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't know.

Deepa: I guess, but they're also really bad at lying to Hanna, like they like.

Cameron: So confusing.

Deepa: You're not doing a good job like

Cameron: But like Spencer could have just answered the phone and be like, Yeah, I'll watch a movie in a couple hours.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Cameron: Because then she was alone and scared later in the day.

Deepa: Yup! Yup! And then, you know, they hear Aria break the secret, even though Aria is the best liar by like shouting Emily's name really loudly

Deepa: Yeah, I am glad that like resolve, although it is funny that the way it resolves is by, like Hanna and Caleb talking it out, but I don't think any of the rest of them talking it out.

Cameron: Like Spencer and Hannah kin of chatted.

Deepa: Yeah, you're right. You're right. 

Cameron: But the other 2 were not really involved.

Deepa: No. So I mean it is interesting that Caleb. I mean again, they're not actually saying anything about A but like Caleb now basically knows that right? Like she says someone's blackmailing me, but I don't know who right, and I am glad that she told Caleb about Lasagna box money. That was nice.

Cameron: Do we remember how much money she stole?

Deepa: Oh, great question! No idea. I don't even know if we ever knew the full amount. At one point she’s like I paid off some of the mortgage, and there's like $10,000 left or something. And I think at that point we were like in our reaction to it. We're like, Wait, how much she take in the first place! If the 10,000 is the extra.Yeah, I guess to make a dent on a mortgage. You need a lot of money.

Cameron: chunk of cash. Yeah. Yeah, I am glad, Hanna told Caleb. I'm glad we got the revisiting of the phrase. “It's only a felony if they find out” 

Deepa: And unauthorized loan like 5 times on the intro. It’s true, Ashley never goes to jail for that.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: She goes to jail for other things, but not prison, just jail, so.

Cameron: I forget what she goes to jail for, but.

Deepa: She gets arrested for Wildon's murder at some point.

Cameron: Wilden right. The Louboutins, or whatever that are muddy under the sink.

Deepa: Mona saves them. So you know.

Cameron: Oh, my God! Mona is amazing in this. Like the second episode, mainly. Incredible! I loved it. I was wondering if we're supposed to like start suspecting her because of how like well, she like maneuvered the system, and, like used like this blackmail information is power.

Deepa: Or even before that, when Emily 1st is apologizing to her, and and we see Mona's face. But Emily doesn't see Mona's face, and she looks like miserable, understandably like reflecting on what Allie did to her, and then her face changes very quickly right when before she turns around, and I was like, is this supposed to be, you know, because Emily can't see that? Is this supposed to be a hint that she is hiding How much that still all impacts her, and that this is the put, you know. And there's also this perception that Mona is not like smart right like, that they have

Cameron: Yeah. And I think this was like we, we've been underestimating her right.

Deepa: Well, I think I think Spencer has realized somewhat recently that she's been underestimating, Mona, because of their conversation where she was like. Oh, no, wait, no, that was sorry. I think. Spencer felt sympathetic for Mona. I forgot, though it was Mona in that conversation who says spencer is smart. Because she says like, Oh, you're smart, smart.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay, okay. But Emily is, yeah. You're right. You're right. Because, like, I'm so used to like Mona being good at everything that watching it. I was like, of course she's doing all this. But Emily was surprised. I was like, Oh, right, they don't know this. They think that Mona's Not a genius.

Cameron: oh, so just, so happy to see Mona in her element.

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: And it, and like reward Emily immediately for apologizing to her like.

Deepa: Well, I mean, that's the other thing I was thinking about is like, you know, Mona, before we get the reveal, Mona gets closer to Spencer as well. And I'm like, is this, is Mona actually enjoying this? Is this in any way cathartic? Or is this still like part of the Revenge plot to make them trust her more. You know I don't know. We. We did get some very interesting different combinations of people, and Mona and Emily was one of them.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: The other. Funny one was Aria and Caleb not very long, but still like briefly.

Cameron: Yeah. Never Hang out.

Deepa: I don't know if they've spoken to each other before. but they're in the same group for truth up day. 

Cameron: God truth up day I don't even- where do we start with that mess like.

Deepa: The 1st dimension we get of truth up day is what in the whole conflict between Hannah and Kate and I'm like even if this is the like. Even if this vice principal has all sorts of other ulterior motives, or whatever like. Why do you think it's a good idea to use this to put teams in conflict with each other right like.

Cameron: I just. I don't understand this school's response to people feeling unsafe in their school like.

Deepa: Nope.

Cameron: They had one speech from therapist Anne. And now we're making them have a sleepover at the school.

Deepa: Where they talk about how unsafe they feel, and when they do, they get punished for it. for telling the truth.

Cameron: And it's like mandatory to share. I don’t

Deepa: I’ve played that steps game many times right like over the course of like school work retreats. Blah blah blah, right? Like various things. But number one. Usually you can opt out number 2. There's like different versions of it. There's the version where someone reads you things and you like, like they do in this, where, like someone like Ella is reading things, and people have to step forward for them. But usually those are pretty. Those are like more benign, I think, like those are, because it's like you have to step forward. And then there's the version where people themselves opt to say something about themselves and step forward.

Cameron: Oh.

Deepa: and that's usually the more like confessional one because people are choosing it. And then, if anyone else is like- We did this at my like senior retreat in high school, and almost always someone comes out. It was me. but when you and there you're saying we were standing in a circle, and when you step out and say your thing, if anyone else has that same thing apply to them. They step out too, but they're not forced to. No one is forced to. You are volunteering this information, and it starts with a student volunteering information. In the 1st place. So like, yeah, that's just like weird and hostile to make that like the the way that they do it. I've done that for like a work retreat. But then it's usually like about work, you know. Like, have you ever encountered this challenge like. Like not like. Do you have trauma?

Cameron: Do you have trauma? And then have you ever lied to your parents about drinking alcohol like? What is this? What is these like questions? I don't understand.

Deepa: While this activity is being hosted by a parent who's also a teacher.

Cameron: like manufactured and force like vulnerability and intimacy in these spaces. What are we doing like? That's not like.

Deepa: Rosewood has a 0 tolerance policy towards bullying Cameron

Cameron: I don't know how they can say that with a straight face. I know it's exactly like how 0 tolerance policies are used like they're just like you say it. and then, like it's about punishment

Deepa: But, like, say, Hanna had done this like. Super fucked up way to treat this for Kate right like.

Cameron: Is not yeah. And then, like her, I was thinking about that position because her like appeal to Ella of like, you know me. I wouldn't do this, like her relationship with the teachers and the people in power, Like wielding that. If she is a bully like, yeah, that's a problem.

Deepa: Yeah. And like for all that, Kate, you know, for all that, this is supposed to be a really like you know, sly maneuver where she gets everyone feeling bad for her or lusting after her. She's still isolated. She's still sitting alone in the cafeteria. She hasn't like gained friends out of this, you know.

Cameron: No, 

Deepa: Not excusing what she did. But it's just like it's not functioning the way that they want to pretend It's functioning, you know.

Cameron: I, when they kept panning to her, sitting alone on the floor, and for lunchtime I was like this, isn't.

Deepa: And just like looking sad, and then meeting Hanna's eyes and glaring at her, which, like she's still, she's still alone. She's still alone and hit us, surrounded by her friends and the Supervisor for this activity. Oh, I guess the other activity wasn't Ella, was it? It was.

Cameron: That was Ashley. But.

Deepa: Oh, actually, okay. Still, a parent.

Deepa: Yeah. So Ella was supervising the ball, throwing activity. yeah. But like, exactly like you're saying, like Hanna has allies in that room, and, like the the quote unquote allies that Kate has in that room are are sexualizing her like, that's all they're doing. They're sexually harassing her right. Which also no one says anything about. So also, just like like, we're supposed to believe that people would like voluntarily like open themselves up to that kind of sexual harassment as a teenager. because that would be like showing how hot they are.

Cameron: Absolutely not I.

Deepa: That's how that works.

Cameron: Especially for girls, right?

Deepa: Oh, my God! New school. You have no idea how people are gonna react to that.

Cameron: At the very least, it's slut shaming right. Very least. And then it could be like ostracization. It could be right, like, it's just Yeah, I was. I was just doing some googling.

Deepa: Hmm, hmm.

Cameron: About like revenge porn.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: Which is not the correct terminology, apparently. so, because the porn is like the salacious-fies it right, and then, like the revenge. Part kind of is victim blaming. And I was like, Oh, yeah, like, there's something the victim did to make the you know. Like to make some, you know and it's usually not just like a jealous ex-boyfriend right? Which is what we think about when we yeah, so sorry. Let me tell us what the correct terminology.

Deepa: Please, do, please, do.

Cameron: non-consensual distribution of intimate images. So.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: That is the preferred. I was also listening. I re-listened to the you're wrong about episode about sexting like teen sexting and about, like the moral panic around that which is Mainly about like images, right of teens that like if you're caught with them, you know it's like child pornography, or you know you're sharing child pornography of yourself, or like, so it's just like, it's yeah. A great cultural moment to have for to like use that as a like tool. I guess. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, but it's like, it's use like. it's, it's one of those again, like where things where they twist what actually happens in reality, which is usually people are sharing nonconsensual images of someone else to sexually harass and intimidate them rather than tricking people right like it's not real. Oh.

Cameron: No, exactly. It's like this isn't what happens in real life. And the quote unquote victim here, having the power.

Deepa: It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Yeah. And like this is something I don't know much about. Like I my assumption based on how we talk about it is that it's usually a like partner or former partner. But is that not the case?

Cameron: That's like, I think, the the ones that get like, I think that's our like cultural narrative of it.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: I don't know. I think that's like not always the case. And there's like weird websites, apparently, where people just like post.

Deepa: jesus

Cameron: Images of others without their consent, and like

Cameron: But I I think our like cultural understanding is like, you know, 2 teens are dating. They're sending pics, and then, like they break up, and the dude, just like sends the picture to everyone right.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I think part of the part of part of the reason That's the popular understanding, I'm sure, has all sorts of effective reasons, too. But also just like, I think the assumption is that logistically, who would have these pictures of a teen? But I think that's also not true. Right? Lots of ways you can get pictures.

Cameron: There’s like the Internet.

Deepa: Yeah, exactly But then but then there's still this like blaming narrative of like, oh, they trusted the wrong person, you know, but like maybe they didn't.

Cameron: Maybe like we should just let people like.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah, I thought the framing of revenge Porn was interesting, or like the not using that language.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, the implying that that means there was an instigating incident that The person is getting revenge for. No, that's fucked up. I haven't thought about it before.

Cameron: No me, either. Yeah, just like, I think anything the teens do like. We're always worried about it as a society

Deepa: It's like, yeah, yeah, we talk about moral panic, like.

Cameron: Moral Panics.

Deepa: It’s the other way around like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Almost always the other way around. Panic is about what the teens are doing is if they have the agency to be like driving things like larger cultural forces.

Cameron: We're at the mercy of the teens!  

Deepa: Oh, my God! Oh, my God! It's like that! It's like that. Oh, I'm gonna reference this because it gets to part of why I just like him. But it's like that John Mulaney thing about like being scared of the teens. He has a bit That's basically he has a bit about how like teens are always so cool and like he's always like, he's just like a nerd. You know, one of those like he's just a nerdy guy, and he's like walking down the street and the teens are gonna make fun of him like.

Cameron: Oh, my God!

Deepa: You're like 30 something at this time that you're doing this bit like, what are you talking about? But it’s a really popular bit because everyone's scared of being judged by the cool teens.

Cameron: That's the only power they have is to make you feel like you're not cool. Yeah, that's not real. It doesn't harm you like that's not, oh, that's wild.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, I am probably not gonna link to that in the show notes, because we are not fans of john Mulaney. But he does have a bit on that. I’ve seen gifs of it on tumblr

Cameron: It's such a weird, like infantilization of yourself, too.

Deepa: Like, yeah, anyway. during the the game, where they throw a red ball to each other, or just take it from each other. I guess there's another piece of gender stuff that I wanted to to get your thoughts on, which is Noel saying, bad boys have nothing on mean girls.

Cameron: Yeah, love that, love that.

Deepa: Yeah. And it's just, I'm sure we've talked about this in some form before, but the like, it was just making me reflect on the whole. That's like that's the show whole thesis right like like men do some bad stuff. But ultimately A is always a girl or a woman right like. And it's always like a, you know. I don't know. Like like a yeah, it's always like this mean girl thing, right? Like. Rather than what we have always conceived of Pll as being is a story about patriarchy, even though all of those women who also like do things to the liars themselves are victims of abuse by men and by the patriarchy. But bad boys like no bad boy like guys just like punch each other and get over things. but, like mean girls, they they draw things out for years.

Cameron: Oh, my God! I'm so glad you brought up stand up because I feel like that's exactly what stand up is right like men do this. Women do this right? And that's why I hate it kind of across the board. And I think. yeah, I don't think I've thought about it in a Pll specific context before, like, yeah, men can be friends after they punch each other, and then it's all forgiven. But like I think there's also something. And this isn't profound. This has been said many times about, like, you know, like anger is the one emotion like women are like, not really. It's not like welcomed for women to like experience and express, especially.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And so it is kind of like pathologized a little bit. In like Pll, like you see it like kind of consuming people.

Deepa: Hmm.

Cameron: And like, especially like the obsession, the A stuff like it's just like you can't express it out loud. You can't immediately get your get heard 1st of all, or get like any sort of not like even accountability, but like feeling like people See that you were harmed, you know.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: And so, like most people's response to that is to just like like like, have that build and build and build and build until you're just like doing these like criminal mastermind activities. Right? And I think that's really interesting. Like, yeah, men couldn't do that. They wouldn't do that. Yes, that's not like, biologically.

Deepa: Oh, my God!

Cameron: What they're wired or like, socially conditioned to do. so. In conclusion, I mean, I think there's a lot of stuff like debunking the like serial killer, as like criminal mastermind like. It's not real right, but it is in Pll. All the women are criminal masterminds.

Deepa: And it's because of their like deeply repressed rage that they're not. Yeah, yeah, not because of patriarchy.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, this this is, this is gonna be another silly reference. But there's a there's an episode of new girl where they kind of get into this. So they don't have the framing of like bad boy and mean girl. There is just this, like, you know, a lot of new girl, because the whole premise of New girl is like, this girl goes to live with these 3 guys so like so quirky? Right? And so there's an episode where wait. Oh, I'm gonna forget all the names of every character in New Girl.

Cameron: I'll just say some names. Jess, Schmidt, Nick

Deepa: Thank you.

Cameron: Coach.

Deepa: I have for the record watched all of New Girl. My memory is just bad. Anyway. Jess and Cece, who are best friends, have a fight and or don't have a fight. Jess is upset at CeCe About something, and Jess is complaining to probably nick about it. And Nick is like, why don't you just have it out with her? And Jess is like, Well, I can't. Because if I had this out with her, then we would just like, basically like they've been friends in high school or since they were kids. So it would like unravel all of the things that they've been upset about that. They've never spoken about since then, because they would just like keep going back and forth at each other. If they talked about this one thing.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: And then Nick is like what? like if I'm mad at Schmidt I just punch him, you know, it's like the same framing of like, yeah, men are just so straightforward. And like, we'll get that, you know. Just get it out there and like women, internalize all these things for a million years, and of course the episode ends with like Jess and Cece having it all out, but then also maybe punching each other.

Cameron: Punching each other. Is that what you said?

Deepa: Get it over with.

Cameron: That's also it's so funny, because it like, of course, minimizes the getting it over with of men like the punching the violence.

Deepa: Oh, no, that's just necessary. Like. That's what the the reasonable solution here is to commit violence to the person you care about.

Cameron: Wild.

Deepa: But I think when Noel said that I was thinking I I wasn't actually at the moment thinking as much about the like even though this is exactly what you said, and what you followed up on correctly is the like guys with each other and girls with each other relationship. I was also just thinking about how it just like diminishes all of the like violence and abuse committed by men in this show, too. Right? Like, there's this idea that, like women, are the real bad ones, right like. But.

Cameron: I mean, I mean, anytime. There's something similar to the phrase. Boys will be boys right You're just excusing horrific shit usually.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. I just like wrote that down and didn't like think about it at all. So thank you for having us like go in there a little bit.

Deepa: It's again. It's not a new. It's not a new idea for this show. It's like. And it's just like, definitely emphasize more and more with this episode. But yeah, you know, what I'm realizing is.

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: Truth up day did not actually really use any of their formal activities to actually get any truth out. Like all of it was like happening on the sidelines. We didn't have any like new revelations in those right.

Cameron: Someone wrote, I know who killed Allison de Laurentis.

Deepa: That is true. And we, did we ever visit that?

Cameron: I want to know.

Deepa: Who wrote that? Mona? Mona doesn't know right now, does she? We've talked about this before, and I don't know, we've concluded, but I don't think Mona knows who killed Alli. She knows that Ali's not dead.

Cameron: She knows Alli's not dead, so I feel like she could write that.

Deepa: Oh, oh! Is it like a metaphorical.

Cameron: Nobody.

Deepa: And Allison killed herself.

Cameron: Oh, Allison killed herself!

Deepa: Oh, meaning like Alison killed the out, the the person.

Cameron: Society killed Alison de Laurentiis. That was the only one that, like I was like. Oh.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, that was fun. But it was only Noel and Jenna who were there for that.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Also some of, it just reminded me, like what like. whether, how, how this is supposed to be a safe space or not for people to confess things, because, like. what are they like? Someone talked about being afraid of their dad and like it's anonymous. So I guess there's not mandatory reporting, but I don't know how that works for anonymous stuff.

Cameron: Like, what like, what is the follow up for these kids? You're making these kids like be vulnerable and disclose shit

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, I don't know, especially when when. Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: What are we offering them?

Deepa: No, I don't know. the truth, Cameron.

Cameron: The truth. The naked truth 

Deepa: and the opportunity to forge new connections. Maybe.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: That’s what Veronica tells Jason today is about I don't know if it's about forging new connections for the chaperone. So oh, my God!

Cameron: Oh, my gosh! I guess we could talk about that reveal.

Deepa: Would love to talk about that reveal because I've been waiting.

Cameron: Oh, we got it siblings!

Deepa: I had forgotten that there was an alley flashback where Number one is where we 1st hear about Melisa and Jason making out

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And Number 2 is where we 1st know that Alli knew and hinted at it. Spencer should have figured that out. Not that much of a hint like.

Cameron: A match frowned upon by the gods.

Deepa: They're like 2 white teenagers who are the same age. What else is gonna be frowned on about this?

Cameron: Yeah. And also Veronica knew.

Deepa: So Peter was telling Jason that Veronica didn't know.

Cameron: But she's known for so long.

Deepa: Is that just to protect Veronica from Jason like confronting her? I don't know.

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: Or did they forget again what they did 3 episodes ago?

Cameron: Which fair.

Deepa: Yeah, that that was my memory. To be honest, my memory was that Veronica had known forever, because mostly because I didn't think that there was a huge fallout for Veronica when this comes out right like. I remember Spencer and Melissa being mad about it. But I didn't remember Veronica being mad about it this this time. So my assumption was she got over it before, you know, but like wild for her to be like, I understand exactly how you're feeling. So you have to get over this right now. What took me a while to get over way back, when? Because I've already decided that I you know what I mean, like.

Cameron: And like implying that Spencer wouldn't be here if she didn't get over it.

Deepa: God! What the fuck.

Cameron: Or like. If she had known about it before, it was like very much like I wouldn't have had you.

Deepa: Okay. But also that's a lie, because she didn't have her.

Cameron: I know.

Cameron: Oh, my God, we're we're not done with this but I just want to put a PIN in. Oh, just mentally, I'm putting a PIN in something.

Deepa: Yeah, it's a lie. It's also a fucked up thing to say to your kids that they like. This was good because it was good that I wasn't mad about this, so I didn't leave your father. I guess.

Cameron: I guess.

Deepa: Also there are other, there are other reactions other than just. I could have left your father like.

Cameron: We could have told you. I don't know.

Deepa: we could have been open with Jason about it, Jason could have had a Relationship like I don't know or like whatever like, whatever those things are.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But anyway, I love this reveal. It's a great reveal.

Cameron: It's such a good reveal. And then it's just Spencer sitting by the windowsill.

Deepa: I love her Conversation with Jason, too, where it's just like he's just, you know, leaning up against the pillar, looking like angsty, Looking Jason-y And she's like is my father Your father?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Spencer, I'm sorry your father is so many people's father.

Cameron: He's the town whore. I think we've discussed that stuff before. Yeah, he just has been around.

Cameron: Oh, Jason. Why does he have a gun does just like do dudes just have guns. I'm talking about. Peter, not Jason. Sorry.

\Deepa: Do dudes just have guns? I mean, maybe no idea, no idea.

Cameron: I was like, Oh, yeah, my office gun.

Deepa: That's what it's always what happens in Agatha Christie. Dudes just have a gun locked up in their desk, but that, I think, is because of World War 2 and World War one. They all just like brought guns back at least in Agatha christie That's what they claim. They're all just like here are my guns from war.

Cameron: That's so funny. so we don't know what Peter's excuse is.

Deepa: We don't know what Peter's excuses, but also this is America. So.

Cameron: You don't need an excuse.

Deepa: You don't need to use an excuse to have a gun.

Cameron: Why does Mona need the gun?

Deepa: What does she do with a gun? Mona doesn't shoot anyone, does she?

Cameron: I Don't think so. Right?

Deepa: I don’t think anyone gets shot anytime soon.

Cameron: Oh, it takes a bit.

Deepa: Yeah, like, Garrett probably gets shot eventually. But that's in a while. That's on the train episode.

Cameron: Not this season.

Deepa: I was gonna say, speaking of guns and garret that move he pulled with Caleb like not surprising, obviously, cause he's a.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Rosewood police and they are fucks, but it just made me be like, why isn't this show more abolitionist like.

Cameron: The cops are terrible like explicitly 

Deepa: And in in the ways that cops are right, like he shows up to his ex-girlfriend's house.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Never mind that she's a teenager, and he's an adult. But yes, his ex-girlfriend's house and gets upset at this indigenous teenager who was knocking on the door, and, like Visibly like, threatens him essentially, including showing his weapon and threatening him with his car. Shows up with the siren on. In the 1st place. That’s what cops fucking do

Cameron: Just use their power to just like intimidate literally, everyone and.

Deepa: Literally everyone, and in particular, like Black and indigenous people, and youth and intimate partners, or former intimate partners, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Jesus.

Cameron: Yeah, that was, that was oh, that was so gross.

Deepa: It was horrifying. Yeah, yeah. And the thing is, it was supposed to be horrifying, which is why I'm upset that the show isn't more so abolitionist, because it's not like it was. you know, like, yeah, we do sympathize with Caleb. There, we don't sympathize with Jenna, probably. But we sympathize with Caleb.

Cameron: Oh, my God! The Jenna of it all is just so sad.

Deepa: Really is.

Cameron: Like we're again supposed to be threatened by her saying that she's been harmed by so many people in this school right.

Deepa: and I was mad at Caleb for his response, because, hanna throwing the 1st punch, they're, not hanna, Jenna throwing the 1st Punch was not physically throwing. There was no-

Cameron: It wasn’t a Punch.

Deepa: And now you've made everyone think that there was literally because she was talking about literal violence.

Cameron: Yeah, that was bad. And like, just.

Deepa: Also like, I think I think it makes sense that Hanna has forgiven you for this. But you were part of that, too, at the time. The Reason Hanna slapped Jenna was because of you.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Working with Jenna, yeah.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: So. And then they just like. I mean I get. Why, they don't trust Noel and Noel's obviously a jerk, but like there's actually nothing proven that Noel has done to them except for threaten Ezra, which great.

Cameron: Thank God!

Deepa: Right? What else has Noel done to them?

Cameron: What is he trying to do to aria on the spooky roof.

Deepa: I don't actually think he's trying to do anything to Aria. He's looking for Caleb, possibly to beat him up.

Cameron: Oh, okay, because you like, okay.

Deepa: Yeah. So he's looking for, He definitely could be asked. Sorry.

Cameron: He is looking for Caleb right.

Deepa: Yeah, but I think he was just trying to find Caleb. And

Deepa: and he's not lying when he tells Holden I wasn't attacking her.

Cameron: Okay, that's what I thought. But I was like, what is going on here. But yeah, it's about Caleb. Okay.

Deepa: I mean, he's being creepy about it. Because why would you pull on someone's foot while they're trying to climb.

Cameron: On a spooky roof.

Deepa: but I don't actually think he was after Aria 

Cameron: Yeah, okay.

Deepa: However, that did give us our 1st reveal of Holden MMA fighting

Cameron: Roundhouse, kick.

Deepa: his fists are up like he's ready.

Cameron: Great form.

Deepa: Love, that.

Cameron: Incredible Storyline.

Deepa: Will never not be funny.

Cameron: No, never, not.

Deepa: Gay. He's just mma fighting. Maybe that should be our new word for people being gay.

Cameron: Does he like fight MMA? yeah, it's like, intimately touching other people. Like, very close, very close. Yeah.

Cameron: Oh, my PIN! I'm going to revisit my pin.

Deepa: Please, please.

Cameron: These were very Spencer episodes.

Deepa: Hmm.

Cameron: And I was thinking when Spencer is confronting Kate about, when she finally realized where she knows her from, and she's sitting cross-legged in the locker room. I was like, and like gleeful I was like, this is, this looks like Alex like it was just like so like an it was just like a different spencer, like turning on the kind of like I don't know. She was just like very pleased with herself, and like pleased with the position she was in. and I don't know. I was like Whoa.

Deepa: Yeah, that's interesting. I love that.

Cameron: What's going on here?

Deepa: It’s not that spencer’s never threatened people. But you're right. There's something about the like smug glee of it all that's like. I mean, I think at this point in the show. We're supposed to see it as her channeling Alli. But it's Alex as well. Hmm.

Cameron: Just like a flash in my mind, and oh.

Deepa: I'm glad you brought that up just in general, because I don't think we think about Alex enough as we are watching this show.

Cameron: I agree.

Deepa: She doesn’t show up until the very end. So.

Cameron: I I think we need to be more on Alex Watch.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. And and I mean, partially, it's not. It's like she shows at the very end. But also we have never rewatched those episodes. because in our rewatches we've never made it that far.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: The last one, we kind of tried. But then we started this Podcast so we started over from the beginning.

Cameron: Yeah, I think that'll be interesting to keep in mind and do like really aggressive speculation about.

Deepa: No, I love it. Great cause. So you know, at some point we'll not be on Mona Watch anymore. So we'll still be on like A watch, but it's more fun when it's Mona. Because we see what Mona is doing in other places. So.

Cameron: Yeah. 

Deepa: Replace it with, Alex Watch. Oh, it's also interesting to see Spencer. We've talked about this before, but to see Spencer confront Jason and put the NAT Club stuff aside because they're like, they're still in the thick of NAT club stuff Otherwise, right? Like, that's where, like, they just got this new video, whatever blah blah Blah. and I did remember that she's able to separate that when she finds out about  Jason, but I didn't remember that they were so still packed together in timing, you know. but they're not- I don't know. She doesn't seem worried about Jason right now, right like, Aria does, maybe. But I assumed that was just like Aria thinking it's awkward that this guy who kissed her is here not like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Being afraid of Jason, you know.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't think it was like a threatened by him in the NAT way, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. But but they're like obviously more fearful of Jenna from that.

Cameron: Yeah, when, like, who has the power and like who all, like many of these people, except for Ian, are still like very present in their lives.

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: And who like what?

Deepa: Like the literal cop or the other adult men who were filming. But no, it's the disabled teenager. That is the threat.

Cameron: huge threat.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Cause she's mad that you guys like harmed her more.

Deepa: Literally.

Cameron: so many Times.

Deepa: So many times, so many times. Also, I just hate like I was mad at Caleb for multiple things in that scene, but I just hate it when they use their, like their references to who is speaking in such a like threatening way like it’s so fucking ableist. I'm sorry you should always be saying who is speaking, and that shouldn't be like a gotcha, you know.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I think that's these days the only time that they do it even to like make it a gotcha. God.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay, well, we've been talking about the second episode a lot. the naked truth. But we should probably talk about some of the 1st episode as well, because there was a lot there as well.

Cameron: Do you want to start us off with the thing?

Deepa: With the thing, the thing meaning literary analysis?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay You see why I said that there was going to be literary analysis this episode. I was telling Cameron that I was thinking maybe I would take a little backseat on literary analysis this week before I'd watch the episode, because I've been doing a lot lately. And then I watched the 1st episode. I was like, Oh, God, okay. We have to talk about this.

Okay So the references in this episode are when they find that Alli's fake id of her with dark hair, gets back to the story of Hanna meeting her in a salon where Allie is using a name Vivian Darkbloom, Vivian Darkbloom, they Google, and is an anagram for Vladimir Nobokov, who wrote Lolita. Then they talk about Lolita and the copy of it that Allison had that Hanna took from her. Anyway.

Deepa: like, okay, they're Lolita References are like some of the most confounding among their literary references to me, because they are  drawing such a clear parallel to a lot of things, and then, but not treating them correctly, you know. So have you read Lolita?

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00:57:56.080 --> 00:57:56.820

Cameron: No.

Deepa: I read it as a teenager. I will do a quick plot summary, because I think it's relevant. So Lolita is about This protagonist and narrator Is a man named Humbert Humbert. And he, the story is basically about his life. And it starts with, you know his, He has various traumatic things that happened in his childhood, but one of the main things is that when he is, I think, somewhere around the age of like 12 or 13, falls in love with this girl, who is the same age, and she dies tragically, and so that is supposed to be sort of the impetus for his like sexual obsession with girls aged like 9 to 14, because he had this like interrupted love when he was that age.

Cameron: 9 to 14!

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, yes, very explicitly. 9 to 14.

Cameron: That is a lot younger than I thought.

Deepa: Really? interesting.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay, no. Is that so? So then, Humbert Humbert, he's think he's French. I don't remember. 

Cameron: Sounds French.

Deepa: He was French, he moves to the Us. He becomes a French professor, he moves to the Us. He meets This woman Charlotte, who is interested in him, and is a widow, and invites him to become a lodger at her house, and he is initially going to say No, but he takes a tour of the house, and that's when he 1st sees her daughter Dolores, who I'm going to refer to as Dolores, because that is her name, and Lolita is only what he calls her she's 12 at the time. She's like Sunbathing

Cameron: 12!

Deepa: She's 12. Yep, she's 12. She's sunbathing in the yard, and he immediately decides he's going to move in. So that leads to this, you know whole escalation where eventually he marries Charlotte, the woman, so that he can continue having access to Dolores. He does not, I don't think, start physically assaulting her until after Charlotte dies, and I think Charlotte, before she dies, finds out that he's been keeping these diaries where he talks about his obsession with Dolores. but Charlotte dies. I don't think he kills her. I think she just dies. And Dolores is at a boarding school, and he, like comes and takes her from the boarding school, and, like just like, takes her with him, and begins like repeatedly sexually assaulting her and raping her, and she like, I don't remember how long that lasts for, but that lasts for some time. They're basically just like moving around different places. They eventually move somewhere where, like, they set up identities as he, him being her father. And like blah blah, lots of happens. Lots of stuff happens. And then eventually they eventually Dolores escapes him. and he has no idea what happened to her, and 2 years later he gets a call from her

Deepa: By this point She's 17, and she's married and pregnant, and she calls him because she is like married to this like nice, hardworking guy, I guess, or something. And but they need money, and she reveals to him that the reason she ran away before was because there was this playwright who was also an adult. His name was Claire Quilty. Quilty had also become like obsessed with her. He's a playwright and child pornographer, like video pornography sells it. Yeah. So he so he also fall in love with him. fallen in love, quote unquote right? She's still like 15 at this point, and so she ran away with him. But then.

Cameron: Oh, my God!

Deepa: Abandoned her when she refused to star in one of his pornographic films. So that's where she's like Been, you know. And at the end. Humbert Humbert, like wants her back, but she refuses, so he gives her money and leaves, and he goes and kills Clair Quilty who at this point has nothing to do with Dolores, but he's mad that he abandoned Dolores. So Humbert Humbert goes to jail for the murder and the book, and like basically, it's his memoir that he wrote before. That would only be released in the, you know, event of his death. It's not real, obviously, but like in the framing of the book. so, yeah, so that's the story. And I think in the end we also learned that Dolores died in childbirth.

Deepa: So

Deepa: just like one more little yeah, just one more little little tidbit at the end to make it even more

Cameron: When she was like 17/18?

Deepa: Yeah, so that's the story.

Cameron: That's horrible!

Deepa: Horrifying. It is genuinely horrifying. Yes, that is interesting that you thought Dolores was older. Because I guess that makes sense that people would assume that. But no like. She's very clearly, very explicitly like not a teenager when they meet and when he like, and his obsession is specifically with with like at 1 point when she's like 14, he calls her my aging mistress like that's already getting to be close to too old for him. Sorry I'm laughing at Cameron's face right now, which is the appropriate face. But.

Cameron: Yeah. Lol. Imagine if we had a video Podcast

Deepa: Oh, my God, no, no. Any 1st reactions to that?

Cameron: I just think, okay, yeah, never read it. I guess Like I assumed she was older, like under 18, obviously, but like later teens. Because, like, I think the cultural thing it has in society is kind of like a taboo like it's not good, but it's kind of a taboo sexy thing, right?

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And a taboo sexy thing for like for like a 12 year old, that's disgusting like.

Deepa: No, it. Yeah.

Cameron: Not I don't know. I was just.

Deepa: No, for sure, for sure, and, like Navikov, is very clear on it. So so one of the things that I wanted to sort of refresh myself on.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Beyond the plot which I hadn't forgotten a lot of, but was like how, not because Nabakov himself frames this book, because I think there's obviously like so many different interpretations of whether Humbert Humbert. 1st of all, I guess I guess one is a pubescent child. It's not Pedophilia or.

Cameron: Is it pederasty?

Deepa: No, it's not pederasty either. It's Hebephilia, I guess pederasty is teenagers, and maybe only teenage boys. I'm not sure but.

Cameron: Oh, perhaps.

Deepa: I don't know. I don't know. I didn't look that up, but Hebephilia is apparently what it's called, but for you know his his abuse of a preteen. There's a lot of debate on whether it's romanticized or not in the book, and I think that now, but I obviously didn't do like a ton of research on this. But, like Nabokov, is fairly clear. Nabokov himself says that he puts no moral authority on anything in the book which is like a weird thing to say, but he is clear that Humbert Humbert thinks of himself as disgusting for this, and thinks of himself as immoral and horrible, and it's very interesting to see how, even though that is such a part of the book that I remember, you know, like I don't remember it being ever this thing where you're supposed to Really, I mean, obviously, there are moments where you're supposed to sympathize with him. But overall, that's not the reading that I took from it, Despite that there are still so many people who interpret it otherwise. and even to the point of like, there is apparently a ton of fucking discourse about whether what he does to her is rape or not, and all other things aside, he himself, Humbert Humbert, in the story at the end says that if he had been the sentencing judge for his own, what he did to to Dolores he would have given him 35 years for rape, or something like that. He calls it rape himself right.

Cameron: Calls it rape? Yeah.

Deepa: And yet there's still so much fucking discourse about this, apparently. And so I think what's like really fucked up about it is that there's all this stuff about like oh, like What was Nabokov’s own responsibility in writing the story? And I think that's a good question to have. But at some point it also stopped mattering. and I both like agree that whatever authors, you know, I have like very mixed feelings about how much authorial intent matters.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: But but like both in the sense that like I don't know that that what like once that author put something out in the into the world. You kind of have to take it as what it is right like. You don't know what they were necessarily trying to do. And also, people are so clearly, willfully misinterpreting that anyway, right? Like, even when you do put it out there. So yeah.

Deepa: So that's a couple things. So another interesting thing is that Vivian Darkbloom is not only an anagram, it's also a character in the book.

Cameron: In Lolita?

Deepa: In Lolita. Yeah. So a very, very minor character. So basically, Claire Quilty, at 1 point mentions a writing partner that he has who is a woman named Vivian Darkbloom. And then I think, at the end, or maybe yeah at some point you also find out that after Quilty’s dead Vivian DarkBloom is writing a biography of him, and those are, I think, the main references you get to her, But it's sort of unclear Why Nabokov decided to have a character who was an anagram of his name, other than that when he 1st published it he published it anonymously, because of like

Deepa: worry about legal repercussions and stuff and censorship. So maybe it was just like the hint he was giving as to who he was. Why that character, like she's a writer as well, but she's like a writer who's the, you know, writing partner of the like other villain of the story, Claire Quilty, and like. So anyway, lots of questions about why, that is, I tried to do some research and started reading some papers, and they were all infuriating. So I stopped

Cameron: Yeah. Fair.

Deepa: Reading one about like masochism in like Lolita, and I got like a page, and it was like, Wait, I think you're trying to say that like she's doing, She's like treating Humbert Humbert statistically, and I was like, Oh, my God, I can't do this! I'm sorry.

Cameron: The fuck, at some point like what.

Deepa: Also just a side note Nabokov apparently hated Freud and hated the idea of anyone psychoanalyzing his characters, or like digging really into like psychology of Humbert Humbert. And yet there are so many papers that Think about characters like specifically using Freudian analysis. And they all talk about how Nabokov hated it and are like we're still gonna do it, anyway. So yeah, so that's Lolita. And you know, there's a- what is Pll doing with this? With this reference? Right? Like.

Cameron: I guess. Like, yeah. Great question. Firstly, great question. Secondly I mean, I guess Alli could be just like seeing like the story could be resonating right? Some elements of it like, not yeah, right? And like and maybe there's something about yeah. Oh, gosh, it's so interesting, like she like always carried it around. Is that what Hanna was saying?

Deepa: I guess, yeah, yeah. And you know, one thing I should clarify is that as much as like Humbert Humbert in many ways like loathes himself for what he's doing there still is this explicit framing of Dolores, as like sexy and alluring, and like You know Tempting him right?

Cameron: Right

Deepa: As far as I remember, I should say I haven't actually read it again.

Cameron: As a 12 year old sunbathing

Deepa: Exactly exactly right like. So so there's that piece of it that obviously is very much applied to alison in this show.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But it's just. It's just like it's 1 of those things again, with like, what do they think they're doing where I don't even know how they can be drawing parallels that aren't the parallels I would agree with. But then how do they treat Alison in the rest of the show? Right, because the parallels I would agree with are this young girl being so over sexualized and treated as if she's the one with the power.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And like being so harmed by it, you know. And there's also this like feel like another thing that I was when I was trying to do like a little bit of like reading papers to do Analysis is, there's a lot about how like obviously Dolores herself in the book doesn't have much agency. She's only seen through Humbert Humber's eyes.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: He’s an Unreliable narrator, and like about a lot of things. But also, like, you know, there are some references to like Dolores really being more of a memory than a person in the book, right? Because she's just like this imagining of Humbert Humbert, and that resonates very strongly with me for Alison. And the way she's treated right now, right like Alison, is not a character with agency in the current part of the show. She is-

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: Someone who pops up in people's memories I've heard that are like either like, that are always like very potent right? Like they're idealized, or they're the opposite idea. I don't know. The opposite of idealized is like super villain, like she's super vilified, or whatever right? And so that all resonates with me as a parallel. But then, like, why don't they understand the story that they're telling about that, right like? Why don't they understand how fucking harmed and abused she is? including by like men that get away. You know that like we're supposed to Be fine with? And why is the person who ultimately harms her? The most? Quote unquote her fucking sister, instead of one of the guys who's been abusing her forever, you know.

Cameron: yeah, again, like the the parallels are there. But like what is it like she's also supposed to be like super mature for reading these, or like super like she's like, you know, like aware, you know, like it's it's a very like I don't know like she, like her power is in what? Recognizing these dynamics and sexualizing herself even further, what are we saying like?

Deepa: And like actually like. If you, if you look at what Pll then does with Alison, it's actually a very apt reflection of what we've done with Lolita like culturally, as a text right? It’s exactly what you're saying of this like idea that, like like this perception that she's older and that it's about like this, how did you put it earlier? 

Cameron: I said it was a sexy taboo.

Deepa: Yes, exactly, no, exactly that. And so that's exactly what happens. Right? Like the same thing that's happening. But like I just want to know what the show thinks they're doing because I think what they actually do is incredibly apt for the way that people misread Lolita.

Cameron: yeah. Come on the pod.

Deepa: Whoever wrote the storyline in, I mean, I don't know if it's a book reference either. I have no idea how much the books do literary stuff this way, or if this is a this is all I mean, they must do some because of Ezra, and shit like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And that's the other thing is that I feel like this isn't unusual, because book writers love to write about other book writers. There are a lot of characters in this who are literary people. Humbert Humbert is a French professor/ professor of French literature, Claire Quilty is a playwright like so, but for me that draws parallels to the literary people in Pll, who are Ezra and Byron.

Cameron: Womp Womp. So there's some unfortunate Ezra stuff. With aria, of course, earlier on in this episode. We don't really need to talk about it. It's nothing.

Deepa: Wait! Oh, oh, just when they're yeah, yeah.

Cameron: In the Car like being gross.

Deepa: Yeah, no, that's fine. Yeah. Hate that.

Cameron: The most the thing we have to discuss is the Byron pitching Ezra as like an associate Dean position in Hollis Satellite school in Louisiana.

Deepa: Okay. I did not remember that the satellite school was, to quote unquote, revitalize the city after presumably Hurricane Katrina, though they don't actually say that, but given the timing so that sucked.

Cameron: I'm, I hate that project overall.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: I guess I'm glad Ezra doesn't go there to do more harm to them.

Deepa: That's the thing. Right? I was like, okay. So like, obviously, I don't want this to happen either, because that's not what New Orleans needs

Cameron: No Ezra? come on.

Deepa: Not only like Hollis College Satellite school like? Yes, that. No. What New Orleans needs like money for the black parishioners. It's like.

Cameron: what is that except for like colonialism? 

Deepa: Just doing more colonizing? Yeah, exactly. So. I don't want Ezra to go do colonizing there jeez.

Cameron: Yeah. Horrifying.

Deepa: God.

Deepa: By the way, I did listen to a very good Podcast about Hurricane Katrina. A few months ago. I will link to that in the show notes. 

Cameron: Please.

Deepa: It’s like, you know, limited series podcast. Sort of as revisiting hurricane Katrina. I think it was from like it's. It was. It was put out in the last 2 years. So revisiting Hurricane Katrina 20 years later. And it's all racism in case that wasn't obvious. But Jesus, anyway. Yeah. So I don't want Ezra to go do that, but I do want him to go away and not teach anyone.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And die.

Cameron: And die. What was it you said? I dare you to die.

Deepa: I did refuse to let you make the episode name just because we had used something about dying, and in the previous episode name.

Cameron: I was upset about that. But it's okay. I got over it.

Deepa: But yeah, anyway, this is apparently threatening for Byron to have, you know, offered him a career opportunity that he never would have gotten otherwise.

Cameron: That he wasn't even being considered really, because he's like, who is he? Even? What has he even done like in his career?

Deepa: Started at Hollis like 3 weeks ago Probably, and finished his masters like 3 months ago.

Cameron: Doesn't make any sense.

Deepa: Yeah, they didn't they? They didn't talk more, much more about it in this episode. And I don't think he’s told Aria yet. But definitely like but if that's a threat, then like.  like, yeah, he's trying to separate them. Okay.

Cameron: Right, but like.

Deepa: The horrors of him like putting you up for a good job.

Cameron: Oh, my! Like, he could be telling the police like he Could he could be telling like, telling your current job.

Deepa: Exactly exactly. I think that what ultimately happens. something happens because he gets fired.

Cameron: He gets fired?

Deepa: Or he leaves. I don't remember which one.

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: I feel like He leaves in disgrace. Because then he’s Unemployed for a while and like sad sack about it.

Cameron: Oh, gross.

Deepa: And then he has to like sell his grandfather's car, or whatever

Deepa: Oh, I do have. I do have, Okay, I don't remember what this line was in reference to. I thought it was about Ezra. And like, Are you talking about her parents? But maybe not. And but at 1 point like someone asked like, Oh, like How how soon do you think this will happen? And Aria says, How fast do glaciers melt? And I was just like the only time I get to do climate change discourse for this.

Cameron: Oh, my! Gosh!

Deepa: They melt faster than they used to, Aria.

Cameron: Oh! Damn!

Deepa: I actually don't know that much about how fast glaciers melt, even though one of my professors in grad school that was his area focus of like glaciers and glaciology. Maybe I did read, I don't remember if it was called glaciology. This is terrible, but I did at 1 point read like a like a like a feminist, approach to whatever the field of study is, but like. That's the only thing I've taken away from that part of grad school 

Cameron: Hell yeah! I love that. it was about Byron. Specifically. He's like.

Deepa: It's Byron who’s melting versus Ella who's thawing. Okay, okay.

Cameron: Thawing, Yeah.

Deepa: Thank you. Yeah We can move on.

Cameron: Oh, oh, jeez.

Deepa: Can we talk about Maya? 

Cameron: I don’t want to. But yeah.

Deepa: I know. But yeah, so much. So many feelings.

Cameron: Like. So Noel is like trying to help her block this person on her phone.

Deepa: God, yeah, seriously.

Cameron: Like trying to get like some app or technology, or like whatever the fuck we had in 2014 or 12, or whatever this is and it's just it's so sad.

Deepa: It's so fucking sad and it’s Just like all of the narrative about true North in this episode, was so infuriating and, like Pam and Emily's approach to it.

Cameron: Maya is being difficult.

Deepa: By bringing it up.

Deepa: Maya is being difficult by still being mad at Pam for this. because Pam didn't know what was gonna happen.

Cameron: doesn't matter.

Deepa: Like you still put this into motion, and you're not taking responsibility for it. You're acting like why is Pam the one who wants? Who who gets to like have a fresh start with her right like.

Cameron: She's not owed that like.

Deepa: Oh, no! Oh, no! It's she says she wants to give maya another chance. That's what it is. Why is it giving Maya another chance? Not.

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: And then, just like Emily gets mad at her for saying things that are true.

Cameron: Yeah, like, yeah, just pointing out Pam's hypocrisy. And that like, just generally being not okay with, like hanging out with her. Which like, yeah, makes.

Deepa: Pam hasn’t Apologized to her. Pam hasn't said anything.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: like buying them Dinner is not enough.

Cameron: they didn't even eat much of that dinner, it was so confusing.

Deepa: and they didn't get dessert, even though Maya wanted dessert.

Cameron: Maya wanted dessert.

Deepa: Oh, oh, yeah. And then, when they talk about it later, which is like. I want to find that a really cute scene. And I find some things about it very cute, but like they don't actually resolve any of the real shit, which is that, like Maya, is allowed to be still mad at Pam when she confesses that doesn't. That shouldn't be like apologetic on her part, right. And Emily, like just washes over the biphobia of it all, like.

Cameron: No, she's not biphobic, she said She's not biphobic.

Deepa: Even if she wasn't biphobic. She's still being biphobic about Pam's reaction, because it would be too confusing for Pam, this is confusing for her.

Cameron: She just got into the like fine with the idea of me liking girls. So this is Whoa.

Deepa: I mean, realistic.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: My mom was also confused by anything when I came out, but she got over it. So yeah, yeah, I was just thinking, too, like when we 1st watched this I think that Emily's response about the Biphobia was enough for me. And it so is not it. Now, you know, I just think that's like where we were in terms of like media portrayals of bi characters. And I was like, Oh, no, it's good. She wasn’t actually biphobic, but that was 10 years ago. So you know.

Cameron: Yeah, it was 10 years ago, and like saying, like I have to compete with that many more people, because.

Deepa: God!

Cameron: Because you're bi. Yeah, with, probably cool, like, yeah, enough to say.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: That was like, no, that was like the pro, you know Bi rights response in 2014, or whatever.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But yeah, I think the other thing I'm mad about, too, with the scene at the end, where they say I love you is that you know, I think that's like because I know what's gonna happen I feel like they're rushing the their reunion and like the sort of intimacy that they get to again because of all the things that they haven't resolved yet. But they're trying to get them as close as possible again, so that it can be even more devastating. Do you know what I mean? Like.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: Like. They just rushed through all of this like resolving things of their past in one episode, and then said, I love you to each other, and presumably maybe bang before school. I don't know. 

Cameron: The Banging before school is pretty impressive, honestly. Like when did she show up?

Deepa: I don’t know

Cameron: But I guess in like television They always like accomplish 17 things before going to school like.

Deepa: Yes, and I have asked you this before, because I'm not a morning person. But you are. You did not accomplish that many things before school, though right like, I mean, in terms of like going to your friend's houses.

Cameron: Absolutely not.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: You were just up absurdly early doing stuff yourself.

Cameron: Yeah, just reading, probably.

Cameron: yeah, that's a really good point. Because it was like 2 episodes ago, when Maya's like, let's get to know each other again.

Deepa: Exactly, exactly. And it's like, I'm not, you know, sometimes, they just do that on TV and like. But like I do, I, I'm annoyed about it. Number one in that. We don't get to see Maya more to like. Build up this Reunion better. They just kind of do it off screen and number 2 that they are like. I do think there is some calculated level of like, They have to be really close for it to be devastating when she dies. close again. You know.

Cameron: God. Yeah, yeah. Come on the show writers so we can fight you.

Deepa: Except for I marlene King. We know that show runners don't do all the writing, so come on other writers.

Cameron: We just wanna talk.

Deepa: Be accountable. Absolve your anti- Blackness and abuse apologia 

Cameron: So exhausting

Deepa: it is it really really is. I do think that Maya's gift to Emily was very cute, and also her wanting to prank the entire swim team.

Cameron: Yes, I she's so like creative and supportive. And I'm just like, Oh.

Deepa: So Cool.

Cameron: And they're just gonna kill her.

Deepa: They’re gonna kill her. Yep, yep, yep.

Cameron: Just like her quote unquote, joking about having a stalker.

Deepa: Oh, my God!

Cameron: Is so sad.

Deepa: So, good Jesus, you do have a stalker.

Cameron: You do have a stalker, and you are telling you're trying, trying, even sort of trying to tell, like you're like, you know, like it's so sad like.

Deepa: I think people should be worried about this. Oh, my God!

Cameron: It shouldn't just be like her acting out right cause. That's how it's like depicted is she's like making inappropriate jokes.

Deepa: Yeah, exactly.

Cameron: Not being pleasant at dinner.

Deepa: Yeah, and then The entire time the entire time. It's just been like fuel, for, like other conflict, whether that's Maya being appropriate or the biphobia thing right? Like biphobic interpretation. I mean, right? Like, it's not actually treated as anything in itself. you know, it's concerning. And it's in this show where like those kind of things should be front and center, because that like that's happening to them all the time, like, why aren't they identifying This is happening to Maya, too? I guess, because they know who's doing it, but that doesn't make it less like violent and threatening in the end.

Cameron: Yeah, like she's saying so many things that should raise people's concern, or at least be like, you know. like “he won't take no for an answer.” Or like, yeah, just like these really alarming phrases and like attempting to joke about them. Obviously, that's what you do you know? Like trying to? ugh yeah.

Deepa: And yeah, it's so fucked.

Cameron: And like people should just be able to behave badly, no matter what, especially if they're going through traumatic things. I just like, why can't we just let people.

Deepa: All the things she said If Pam is annoyed by them, that's because of her own behavior, right? Like they weren't objectively bad things to say, like Yeah, it is weird that you're a hypocrite Pam, like.

Cameron: Think about that. I don't know.

Deepa: If that's like not funny to you. I wonder why. It was funny to me.

Cameron: It was pretty funny.

Deepa: God. For some reason I do always get that dinner mixed up with one later, when, like Hanna maybe comes over to Emily's house or someone comes over and gets really drunk. But I don't remember who. Anyway, I thought that was what was gonna be happening this time. But that's not what happened.

Cameron: I don't remember that at all.

Deepa: I think I think, Hanna, I think it's after Ali is back, and Ali comes over to dinner 

Cameron: Oh! Oh!

Deepa: at Emily's house, and Emily, like, wants other people there for that, because things with Ali are weird right now.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Hanna comes in, and is like upset about something, and gets very drunk, but I don't know why.

Deepa: So anyway, that's way off. But since we have been talking about Pam, should we talk about parents.

Cameron: Yeah.

Cameron: Did you give Pam worse?

Deepa: They did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the only other option, I think, was Peter, but he wasn't there.

Cameron: I wanted to give it to Peter, but he's so funny again.

Deepa: He’s so funny again. Yeah, I don't. I'm not really that mad at him.

Cameron: Yeah, Pam, yeah, we saw like, he didn't have any screen time. So we yeah. And.

Deepa: So right now, the show thinks that Peter's a bad guy for doing all this, and they don't think that Pam is that anymore. They think that she's fixed.

Cameron: Exactly so. It's Pam.

Deepa: Oh, so it's Pam! Great I assume you gave Ashley best.

Cameron: I Did! did you?

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, she's doing everything she can with the information she has. I understand her frustration at Hanna not telling her more about what’s Going on with her, because I think she does believe her, and just wants to be able to do something with it to better protect Hanna. So.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: We did get like coffee moms, midnight coffee moms instead of wine moms.

Cameron: They weren't as like they were. They weren't as explicitly gossipy as they were at the Fashion show, which was kind of disappointing, but they were at school, I guess.

Deepa: Also, Pam wasn't there.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: They weren't their full contingent.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Oh, yeah, it was fun to get a lot of parents again in these episodes, because I feel like we've been a little sparse lately, but pretty much everyone except Wayne and Peter showed up, and Wayne's almost never there. So.

Cameron: Yeah. Oh, it's a nice change.

Deepa: I guess none of the dads were there except Byron.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Even though Kate and her mom were there. I forgot her mom's name.

Cameron: Isabelle

Deepa: Isabelle! Thank you

Cameron: should we do outfits as well.

Deepa: I guess. So. Yeah.

Deepa: Before we do best and worst, I just wanna know how can Hanna tell that Spencer is wearing a quote unquote dude's undershirt? It could literally be any ribbed white shirt. It 

Cameron: so confusing.

Deepa: I know you're the fashion expert, Hanna, but like I don't think you can tell.

Cameron: No, you can't tell.

Deepa: She's like horrified by it. I'm like that doesn't look out of place with that outfit. I don't know.

Cameron: Wow!

Deepa: Anyway? What was your best.

Cameron: I think I struggled with best.

Deepa: Me, too. Yeah.

Cameron: I wrote Hannah's shirt, you know.

Deepa: You don’t know which one?

Cameron: It could be a couple of different shirts. I guess I don't know. I wrote it. I watched this yesterday. I'll get more information, but I don't have it right now.

Deepa: Your notes are usually more in depth than that.

Cameron: Yeah. Well, I usually re-watch just like or like a little bit. Yeah. And I just didn’t today. So.

Deepa: Would it have been Hannah's red halter top at the end of the 1st episode? Because I liked that.

Cameron: Maybe.

Deepa: It was good. It didn't show up very long. There was like-

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: A very short scene at the end of a kiss before lying where Hannah had a good holder. Top. Okay, okay, interesting. I had. I also felt pretty meh about best overall, but I named a few different ones that were okay. I kind of liked Aria's outfit to the date with Holden that ended up actually being them hanging out. It was like.

Cameron: That was cute.

Deepa: Yeah, sparkly black top over leopard print. It seemed like, maybe it was coming out the bottom. Yeah, that was nice. I like Hanna’s Halter. I also liked Aria, had a good dress in that scene, too. It was just so short again that we thought we didn't see it for very long. It was like a-

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Black belted dress. And then I did like our other blackjack with the flowers and the bright green belt and shoes, but I didn't like the necklace, which was huge.

Cameron: We've seen that necklace before, and we hate it. The weird birds.

Deepa: Bird one! Yeah, exactly. I was like, Wow, I can't believe you're repeating those horrible necklace.

Cameron: So ugly 

Deepa: But I did. I liked the rest of the concept like bright green boots and belts.

Cameron: That was wild.

Deepa: It was very aria, but I actually enjoyed it.

Her hair also looks really good. I think sometimes Aria's hair, looking good, will sway me.

Cameron: That's so funny.

Deepa: It wasn't a braid necessarily, but it was like a nice twist tie twist half up do.

Deepa: Yeah, how about worst? Did you have a worst.

Cameron: Should we say it At the same time?

Deepa: I don't know how to say it, but I assume it's the same thing.

Cameron: I think we should just try.

Deepa: Okay, I'll I'll say exactly what I wrote. Okay.

Cameron: Okay, 1, 2, 3, poncho.

Deepa: Aria’s sweater with like shoulder wings and weird flare out at the bottom, and a fascinator hat.

Cameron: Yes.I wrote aria poncho and hair situation. What the fuck? You're right. It was a fascinator. Thank you.

Deepa: Yeah, Was that a punch? Okay, I guess it makes more sense. If it was a poncho, because it was like, so flared out at the bottom. SO much going on

Cameron: It just likes just that's never anything, what is it seemed like Christmas like it was kind of like.

Deepa: We? It was very yeah. It was very like giant holiday sweater, but  not, I mean, maybe it's Christmas. We don't know. We don't know what time of year it is.

Cameron: Oh, my God! it was horrible!

Deepa: It was horrible, and it just had too many different fabrics, too right, because it had, like the sweater part. But then the bottom was like was not like a button up shirt type, right?

Cameron: I don't know. It was so bad.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Definite worse. The only other bad outfit comments I had where Hanna was wearing a dress in that scene that was a zip, but just like it was just like sticking out so much the top of it. I'm just confused about the physics of that. But nothing could beat aria. Sorry Aria!

Cameron: oof.

Deepa: I kind of Enjoyed it, though. That was kind of a classic bat-d aria outfit. Again, I feel like it's fun when we have those, because it's so clear.

Cameron: Yeah, we're not like picking apart details.

Deepa: No.

Cameron: Spencer did have a shirt with bees on it.

Deepa: Oh, I did not notice that. Oh, my God.

Deepa: I guess bees are animals. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Cameron: I I assume so

Deepa: Emily has a butterfly shirt. We don't call him like an animal shirt. You know what I mean like.

Cameron: I do know what you mean But it's different.

Deepa: Have a lot more clothing with like insects on it than animals generally in life.

Cameron: It's like normal to wear a bee shit and not normal to wear horse shirt. 

Deepa: Yeah, definitely.

Cameron: That makes sense to me. Actually, yeah.

Deepa: Okay, we can still count it for fun. But.

Cameron: But you heard it here. Bees are not animals.

Deepa: Bees are not animals, glaciers melt? What other facts can we give you?

Cameron: Maybe there are no Atms in rosewood.

Deepa: MMA is gay.

Cameron: MMA is gay.

Deepa: Feels like an in this house We believe sign

Cameron: Oh, my God!

Deepa: Science is real can be replaced with glaciers Melt.

Cameron: Science is real. Oh, no.

1327

01:44:33.080 --> 01:44:35.919

Deepa: I don't think our friend Group has added any new lines to our personal in this house We believe yard sign in a while

Cameron: I don't think so.

Deepa: Maybe that's something we should talk through.

Cameron: stir up some discourse

Deepa: Okay, is it time for chickpeas Oh, my gosh?

Cameron: Chickpeas. Oh, my gosh!

Deepa: Today we have our 1st celebrity guest recipe. My friend Hannah is here. Hannah, do you want to introduce yourself?

Hannah: Sure, Hello. Podcast. I am Hannah. I have not seen any pretty little liars, but I do love chickpeas so much. I'm very excited to be the Chickpea guest for the week. Basically everything I cook ever has chickpeas. So I feel like I was born for this.

Deepa: That is, that is true. Yeah. Hannah and I have been friends since 4th grade, which is what.

Hannah: 98, I think.

Deepa: 1998, which is so many years.

Deepa: so many years. I think we both have loved chickpeas this time.

Hannah: No, I had to. Actually, when I was looking to decide which of my many Chickpea recipes I wanted to share, I had to check which ones I had either gotten from Deepa or given to Deepa, that might Like half of our recipes are shared, anyway.

Deepa: yeah. Well, I was also thinking about like how long you and I have shared recipes with each other, because it's probably longer than anyone else I know, because. I mean, you also like cooked a lot as a kid, which I never did.

Hannah: Yeah, my parents had a thing where they had my brother and I each cook dinner once a week. By the time we were like you know, young teenagers, which is very, very helpful. I got to college sort of knowing how to make a couple of things. Yeah. And I think I think basically in college is when we started swapping recipes.

Deepa: I think so cause you have that you have that like document that you share with people on dropbox.

Hannah: such as Disorganized dropbox recipe folder that a number of people have access to, including Deepa.

Deepa: Yeah. You also. I feel like, I only learned recently that your relationship with cooking has changed because you used to not like cooking at all.

Hannah: It's true, it's true. I used to really dislike cooking, but grudgingly accept that. I had to do it because I have always enjoyed food. But weirdly, yeah, as an adult, I have. I have slowly gone from not liking cooking, to thinking It was fine to liking cooking to now becoming the person in my friends group who is known to be the cooking one and like sometimes. In an evening, when I don't have anything else to do, I'll be like, oh, I feel like doing a cooking project, which like, if you told me at 18 that that would be who I was gonna grow up to be, I would have been like, what are you talking about?

Deepa: I feel like you did not, which is always funny, because we've cooked like whenever we hang out, which is, you know, we live on opposite coasts for listeners, and we have tried to see each other pretty much every year since we've no longer been living in the same place, and usually, for you know, several days, and we always cook together. But you always didn't like it. You like the food. Obviously.

Hannah: Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's weird. I think part of it is that I've spent the last 5 years playing a D and D character, who is a cook and loves cooking and loves feeding people. And I, I genuinely think that has affected my own relationship with cooking.

Deepa: God you incepted yourself into like and cooking through D and d.

Hannah: I mean, you know how people talk about like using D and D to like, explore, like new pronouns, or like, you know, all sorts of different things. I guess I just used it to explore the concept of liking cooking

Cameron: Wow!

Hannah: Possibly one of the nerdier things I've ever managed to do.

Deepa: Cameron is just like what is happening.

Hannah: I mean. I think I was already on the path before I started this character in 2019, but like it, I think it helped accelerated the process.

Deepa: That is so funny. Wow.

Hannah: It's really funny, because I was just home for Thanksgiving, and my mom, who mostly has not hung out with me as much as an adult didn't. Doesn’t know That I'm the cooking person, and like, because of the way that my daily life goes. You know I cook the most out of everybody in my house and everything. I kind of expect to go home and be like. Oh, yes, I'm going to put together the whole Thanksgiving meal. We're gonna have these 7 things, and like my mom still has the impression that I don't really like to cook.

Deepa: Yeah, that's so funny.

Hannah: It's changed. I don't know.

Deepa: Oh, that's great! I'm glad you like the thing that you have to spend so much time doing, because.

Hannah: It’s true! And I do. I mean, the other thing is that I just love, I love food, and I have always loved food and so that that helps a lot because it's nice to be able to make all of the things that I wish to eat, especially perhaps chickpeas.

Deepa: Okay, so what do you have to share with us today?

Hannah: So I have many Chickpea recipes. I often, in fact, get made fun of, because there are chickpeas in probably 75% of the things that I cook. I don't really like meat. I'm not actually vegetarian, but I don't like meat very much, so chickpeas are like- my chickpeas, and tofu are like my main protein sources. So I was going to share today the recipe that is in my aforementioned messy dropbox labeled Easiest Curry.

Hannah: It is a recipe that I got originally from my friend Alana, who is the person who is the other half of my cooking inspiration other than Deepa. We have been sharing recipes for a similarly long time, and often, in fact, I get a lot of recipes that then go to Deepa, or Deepa recipes that then go to Alana. The 3 of us are recipe connected.

Hannah: And it is like a really good pantry staple meal. It's like it cooks up in like 20/25 min. It takes very little work, and it requires basically nothing perishable except like an onion which for me, an onion is basically a pantry staple. We pretty much always have them around the house, but like you can get them frozen also, if you really want to have genuinely nothing perishable at all in this recipe, so you can put it together when there's you know you haven't gone grocery shopping in 2 weeks you've been out of town, whatever it's like A really good weeknight Easy, fast recipe.

Deepa: Hannah, I have to ask, does this curry have any spice in it?

Hannah: It has optional spice.

Hannah: It has. It has many spices.

Hannah: Yeah.

Cameron: There we go!

Deepa: That's not what I'm asking.

Deepa: The way I make it has no heat whatsoever, but you are welcome to add Chili to it If you would like

Deepa: perfect.

Hannah: I think the original recipe actually does have some chili in it. But I just skip it because I am weak.

Deepa: One thing that has not changed throughout our friendship is that I have not gotten Hannah to like spicy food anymore than we were 9 years old.

Hannah: No, no, tragically, and Deepa’s family is very kind, and when I come, visit cooks me weak white person Versions of all of this in little separate containers. It's very nice.

Deepa: It's funny, too, because my parents are always like, I feel like Hannah's gonna get really tired of the things that we're making, because we're always making the same thing without spice. And I'm like, No, actually, I think when Hannah, like something like they eat it over and over again, it's totally fine like

Hannah: I'm very happy. I'm definitely a batch cooker. I'm happy to eat the same thing all week.

Deepa: Like 5 different types of pasta, right? Like.

Hannah: Yeah. And and you know, we attempt, when when you come, visit, to have some kind of spiciness thing around the house that you can add to our food.

Deepa: I guess I haven't lived with your current, your current housemate. So I don't actually know if you'll have anything, because in your last house you had, you would have like red pepper flakes sometimes. The last place I visited at least.

Hannah: Yes, yeah. I have consistently lived with at least one roommate who likes spicy things. So there's usually some kind of hot sauce or red pepper flakes, or something in the house.

Deepa: Something for me to douse all the meals.

Deepa: Do you remember where you got the recipe from?

Hannah: It. It came from Alana, but I don't know what recipe book it came from. It definitely came from some cookbook, because, like the version of it that I have is like a jpeg of like a photo that Alana took of a recipe book.

Cameron: Wow!

Hannah: One of one of those, you know. It's I've had it for a long, long, long time. Cause it's such a simple recipe. It was like one of the 1st things that I started regularly cooking on my own. The original recipe is potato, chickpea, onion, curry.

Cameron: yum.

Hannah: I you can. You can put any vegetables you want in it. And in order to make it a total pantry meal, what I usually do is, instead of the potato I put in a bag of frozen cauliflower which works really well in it. And then you don't have to have a perishable potato, but you can put any vegetable that you want. It takes a cup and a half of any vegetable whatever. You feel like putting in your curry.

Deepa: Yay. Well, thank you so much for coming on and giving us a recipe.

Hannah: Of course I am so honored.

Deepa: And you don't even have to watch any pretty little liars. Which I feel like you would hate

Cameron: No.

Hannah: I feel like that You guys have that part coverage. So.

Deepa: Well, thank you so much for joining us.

Hannah: Thank you for having me enjoy the curry if you make it.

Cameron: Yeah, thank you for being a fellow, Chickpea lover. I think it's important.

Hannah: I Completely agree.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: This is funny, too, because our last guest on the podcast was stitch. And we do when we have guests on the podcast we ask that they want to do recipe and stitch has never eaten Chickpea. So this is a great like-

Cameron: Wild

Hannah: We can combine and be one very good guest collectively.

Deepa: Well, thank you everyone for listening, and until next time at normal bitches!