Episodes 2.16 & 2.17: “Back Alleys and Backyards”

We stand in full support of Palestinian liberation & believe that Israel should end its genocidal violence and occupation. If you don’t agree, please fuck off.

In today’s pod, we cover episodes 2.16, “Let the Water Hold me Down”, and 2.17, “The Blond Leading the Blind”. We discuss yet more fucked up ableism towards Jenna, Mona’s cashmere blend sweater sets, Emily misunderstanding beards, and worms in takeout boxes. Cameron might be getting paid by Big Chickpea, and Deepa read a play. Have we earned doll hospital yet? 

Theme song by Ashok R. Chandran. You can also read the episode transcript.

Chickpeas Oh My Gosh: Cameron’s can’t wait to try the chickpea-flour Banza cascatelli!

Fashion Analysis: Our best and worst outfits!

Deepa’s Literary Analysis

• Arthur Miller’s The View from the Bridge is about an older man who has an inappropriate and abusive relationship with a younger woman, but that’s probably not the parallel PLL intends us to take from it
• “Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid” is not only not by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe – it’s by Canadian pastor Basil King – but the quote itself is incorrect
• Speaking of incorrect quotes about spirituality, here’s one by Marianne Williamson that is often attributed to…Nelson Mandela
• Does PLL ever reference writers of color or more than two women in literature? Only time will tell

Things We Referenced Related to PLL

• The title of episode 2.16 is probably a Talking Heads lyric?
• There might not be gay men in PLL but there are in The Perfectionists

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL

• “Equal Rights (Not Gay)” from the Lonely Island movie Popstar: Never Stop Never Stopping (which you don’t need to watch the entire film for)
• What’s Your Number? starring Anna Faris (which you should probably watch the entire film for)
• The great bucatini shortage

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to help Rozan and Aboud, two young people in Gaza, escape genocide with their families. You can find multiple donation options at oldcowcreative.com!

Transcript

Deepa: Welcome back to Don't Forget the Chickpeas, your favorite Pretty Little Liars podcast. I'm Deepa.

Cameron: I'm Cameron.

Deepa: And today we're talking about episodes 16 and 17 of the second season. 16 is called “Let the Water Hold Me Down”, and 17 has a shitty title: it's called “The Blond Leading the Blind”.

Cameron: Womp womp.

Deepa: So yeah, I did look up “let the water hold me down”.

Cameron: Oh, it's a thing?

Deepa: It. So it is possibly a lyric from a Talking Heads song.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: The song is called…oh, where did I put it? I had it in my notes. Okay, I don't know where it is in my notes, but it's Talking Head songs, and it's about like the passage of time or something, according to genius lyrics. So I have no idea what it has to do with this. Maybe it just sounded good because it's water. And Lucas was in the water. The other thing is, there is a book called that, but it wasn't written until 2013. So I think that is not. Referring to, and that sounded even less related to PLL. So yeah.

Cameron: So perhaps just sounded good.

Deepa: Perhaps just sounded good. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Cameron: Should we talk about Lucas then?

Deepa: Yeah. I didn't realize that the Lucas stuff resolved so quickly. I thought he was like missing for several episodes.

Cameron: It was barely any time.

Deepa: I feel like, I keep doing this where, like, yeah, that person's gone for a few episodes, and then they're back like, right away. And again, a bunch of other people

Cameron: who knows what happens in Rosewood and time.

Deepa: No idea.

Cameron: He! He's so funny.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: He just shows up in Hanna's house all wet snuck in right, did it in her room.

Deepa: Like. Who is he afraid of being caught by? He's there to talk to Hanna.

Cameron: He's there to talk to Hanna.

Deepa: Like the police aren't after him. I mean, they might be looking for him because he's missing, but not like to arrest him. If he runs into Ashley, and Ashley's like, “Oh my god, Lucas, you're here!”

Cameron: Right. She's like, “Oh, let me call your parents.”

Deepa: The conversation was funny, because at the end, when Hanna says, “you're not who I thought you were.” She kind of means, not as bad, right? But it sounds like “you're not as good a person as I thought you were”.

Cameron: I thought she meant “you're not as good a person”.

Deepa: Oh, okay.

Cameron: She thought he was.

Deepa: I thought she meant “you're not A”, you know.

Cameron: Oh. I mean.

Deepa: Because she kind of smiles a little bit at the end. Or maybe that's just Ashley Benson's acting. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

Cameron: no, I took it as like “I'm kind of disappointed in you”.

Deepa: Okay, like, yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't know. And you just kind of smile sometimes, you know, like.

Deepa: She's uncomfortable.

Cameron: Oh, you're like.

Deepa: Sometimes you giggle.

Cameron: Sometimes you giggle. I don't know if listeners of the podcast will have thoughts about that. Sometimes you just giggle.

Deepa: Okay, that was my take. But yeah.

Cameron: I've some for some reason for didn't like forget that they thought he was A kind of but like.

Deepa: Hmm.

Cameron: They were like, “It wasn't Lucas in the greenhouse.” Of course it wasn't Lucas in the greenhouse. What do you mean?

Deepa: Lucas, like the one bad thing he's done is smash Ali’s memorial, and he did that like where no one could see him.

Cameron: No one could see him, and like, because of deep, like personal reasons, like.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: But the greenhouse like, what do you?

Deepa: I guess the yeah, yeah, it's silly. It's very silly. Do you have any sports analysis about sports betting and basketball?

Cameron: Oh my god! I thought it was so funny because I don't know if I just like cause. We just kept like alluding to his gambling. I think I forgot that it was sports betting, and it seems kind of March Madness adjacent, and that.

Deepa: I didn't think about that!

Cameron: It’s so funny to me, cause it was like the bracket like.

Deepa: He said his team got disqualified. Yeah.

Cameron: Fucked up his whole bracket. And so that just like tickled me. I don't have analysis of it, but it like I think I was surprised that he was doing sports betting.

Deepa: He was like doing the math and the probability of the sports.

Cameron: Oh my god! Just like a nerd, slippery slope like.

Deepa: He's, oh my god! You know what Lucas is. Lucas is actually probably a pretty good, you know analogy for Nate Silver, because he, like gets like big time and rich.

Cameron: Oh my god. yeah. Yeah.

Deepa: Right.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Before Nate Silver was famous. Oh, no, I think the 2008 election was when he got famous. So I guess he's all yeah. So the whole, that was a whole thing already. Well, I guess sports betting is a thing to a lot of people, and we just don't know. That's my point of reference. The one guy who made it political.

Cameron: Hmm! Wow! Okay, thank you for that connection. Thank you. No, unfortunately, no sports analysis about this. But hilarious.

Deepa: I didn’t realize that the other Liars didn't know about Lucas destroying Ali's memorial.

Cameron: Me either.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: yeah. It was a very interesting, like, these two episodes were explicitly about, like. what do you tell and not tell people. and like what? Not, like what's right and wrong, but like how? I don't know. It was just like we were constantly asking each other these questions, thinking about it. Yeah, it was just like very explicit.

Deepa: Yes, and Hanna was making all of the conversations extremely personal, even when they weren't related.

Cameron: Even when they were not related at all.

Deepa: Like. I actually don't think this is good advice for Emily.

Cameron: No! Oh, Emily and Maya.

Deepa: Maya! yeah, I hate that Maya's just gotten back. And we're already getting starts of the hints of text from her abuser like.

Cameron: What?

Deepa: We can't have anything we can't have like five minutes. This is their first date since she got back.

Cameron: Yeah. And she's so cute, too, which I know we always talk about. But. The phone call where she's listening. Hello!

Deepa: “What if I say something dirty?”

Cameron: Oh, she like needs a crisis line, though. I mean, she needs a lot more than a crisis line. But she needs a crisis line.

Deepa: I know. I know. yeah, it's just I don't know. I don't know what there is to say about it. It's fucked up. It'll continue to be. It'll get more fucked up as we go. But.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, can't, can't, can't have anything, can't have nice romance between Emily and Maya without the beginning of the end.

Cameron: Yeah. I'm like.

Deepa: Maybe some biphobia before we get there.

Cameron: Like biphobia.

Deepa: I know eventually, Emily says, like, “It's totally fine with me. I don't care,” but that doesn't happen yet so.

Cameron: Yeah, she hasn't said it yet. And yeah, it's just devastating. Like you said, there's not much to say right now. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. Hanna and Caleb's. You know. Constant conversations about how to keep people safe and everything. I mean, I'm glad that Hanna finally framed it, as, “That's why I'm not telling you, to keep you safe,” rather than just in previous episodes she'd been saying things like, “It's not important, you don't need to know,” that kind of thing. But I'm kind of like at this point. Why can't you just tell Caleb like he's when you when sense, and why can't the others like when Spencer's getting to the point of saying, like what she told Caleb after he comes to her? And Emily is that Jenna is blackmailing them right. Framing them or something. Yeah. For Ali's murder, and that they don't think he like. What at that point, why can't you just say what's going on.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And yeah, I actually, I actually started wondering because I didn't remember how things went down. I actually started wondering if Caleb was gonna be the first to get to know about A. And if we were wrong about our memory that Ezra was the first to get to know about A but no, he gets to know more things, but not really the whole thing. Right, and he doesn't know about the Jenna thing, I'm pretty sure, and Ezra does.

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah.

Deepa: And Toby obviously does, because he was there.

Cameron: Yes. I just think it's such a trope, or like a thing of like I just have to like Spencer breaking up with Toby different times.

Deepa: I do. I know.

Cameron: And like you just, “I don't want you to get hurt,” you know.

Deepa: I know, I know.

Cameron: But like these people. you know, like they're gonna get hurt regardless. I don't know like it's not.

Deepa: He'll be so wrapped up in this. That's. Yeah of all the partners. Toby's the one who's in the middle of it. So.

Cameron: Like you give people the choice.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, like, I actually think it's very weird. They haven't told Toby more because it I for him. It's not only like lying to him, but it is putting him at risk to not know what's going on, especially if they think it's his step-sister who's his abuser right.

Cameron: Who lives with him!

Deepa: Who lives with him.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like. Yes, Toby is the one who've been physically at the most risk. and this time it was not vehicular.

Cameron: No, it wasn't.

Deepa: Yeah, I know that was just so shitty. And then, like the Wren of it all was so bad.

Cameron: Oh my god!

Deepa: I like gagged when he walked in. I was like god. Of course he's Toby's doctor.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Ugh! Yeah, very convenient for Spencer's lie, I suppose.

Cameron: Yeah, and Wren’s just being disgusting. Of course.

Deepa: Also Wren fails to mention, because when you know, Toby said when he says, 
 “I kissed her, I won't deny that.” And Toby says, “Big of you,” and then, you know, he says, “I thought we were broken up,” and Toby says, “Did Spencer tell you that?” And when Wren says yes, he fails to mention that this is because Spencer was bawling her eyes out about having broken up with Toby, and that's why he knows that they were not together. And then he took advantage of that vulnerability. Not like Spencer was like, “Hey, I'm broken up with Toby. Let's make out now.” Sorry, Wren.

Cameron: That's not his narrative. So. What the fuck.

Deepa: Ugh.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: There are a lot of things in these episodes that bother me.

Cameron: That's so like, like new and different from our other episodes.

Deepa: Well, I feel like also, because they're not all centered on Ezra and Aria.

Cameron: Okay. Okay. Thank you.

Deepa: Not Ezra and Aria related. They're really a party. But there was also that.

Cameron: There was that that was gross. too much.

Deepa: Anything Spencer was doing right.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I mean, I'm not angry about the Toby thing. I'm just annoyed by it narratively. It's annoying to have to watch those kind of plots, you know. Misunderst, not misunderstandings, but lying like you said, lying to protect someone. Plots are just boring from a narrative perspective.

Cameron: And she's like, we've talked about this before, like too supportive of Ezra and Aria. Like, just like, go in like, hell. Yeah, do it more like.

Deepa: And it's like.

Cameron: “It's romantic.”

Deepa: It's very weird, because when she runs into, when she and Aria run into Holden she's very like. you know, excited about Holden liking Aria and.

Cameron: True.

Deepa: That, and then like turns on a dime when you know, Aria says that the reason they're going out is to see Ezra. So you're just too excited about Aria dating people? I don't know.

Cameron: Hmm! Is that why people like ship them?

Deepa: Yeah, cause she's over compensating.

Cameron: Because she's just like really excited.

Deepa: Yeah, no. I’m not opposed to people shipping them in and of itself. But you know. The context.

Cameron: The other options. Yeah, for sure.

Deepa: I was thinking about that with Spencer and Mona, because, like I mildly ship Spencer and Mona, because their interactions are fun, but not really. Because, again the context. I don't think that's who I want to focus on. But their scenes are always very fun. And I enjoyed this one that was not antagonistic.

Cameron: No, they're usually very charged.

Cameron: This was like, Oh.

Deepa: Yeah. She bought a lot of cashmere blend sweater sets. “Have you ever seen me wear a sweater set?”

Cameron: “Seem me wear a sweater or a cashmere blend? No!” I know, no blends for Mona.

Deepa: She offers one to Spencer.

Cameron: It's like fun.

Deepa: It clearly wouldn't fit Spencer. She's so much taller than you.

Cameron: Crop top sweater set. Oh, yeah. Mona got dumped.

Deepa: Mona got dumped by Noel fucking Kahn while looking extremely cute. So of all the outfits to dump Mona in like that one was really cute, like the bohemian look.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: I don't know if I would have liked it on, on someone else. But it looked really good on Mona. That was my best outfit.

Cameron: It was? It was yes, oh, interesting, interesting!

Deepa: Sorry if you didn't want to move it down.

Cameron: I’m not gonna reveal mine yet.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: It’s so early in the episode.

Deepa: Yes, because we have such a structure to these.

Cameron: Hmm, okay, okay, no. I want to go someplace. Weirder.

Deepa: Take us someplace weirder.

Cameron: So. I forgot that Noel dubs, Mona. I didn't remember the how their relationship ended. and I don't think this is the case. But do we think she beheads him?

Deepa: Yup, that's definitely weirder. Okay, who beheads Noel Khan is a great question. and one I do not have the answer to. I don't think it's Mona. I feel like the last person that Mona kills is Charlotte, and that happens after. But I could be wrong. I could be before. I don't remember actually, no, if no, if it happened before Charlotte and that would mean it was after the time Skip, and I feel like he gets murdered before the time skip? Because, like, why would he be around after the time? Skip? They're not in high school anymore. So yeah, maybe it does happen before. Maybe Mona kills him. Good question. Good question.

Cameron: Just like.

Deepa: Play in the long game.

Cameron: Like the hockey but it goes.

Deepa: This will be Charlotte. you know she has something to do with his brother. She knew him so because they play that weird game at the cabin.

Cameron: Truth or Truth, or what.

Deepa: I can't wait for Truth or Truth.

Cameron: It sucks.

Deepa: This one is so funny.

Cameron: That's just like I feel like peak Spencer chaos, but like trying to be like high achieving like, it's like this, very like.

Deepa: Yes, yes, but taking it to those like weird extremes, so weird.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, I guess Noel immediately starts dating Jenna. So that's gonna go on for a while.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: At least through the train episode. I don't remember how long it goes after that.

Cameron: I only remember the train episode. Oh.

Deepa: Speaking of Jenna, do we have to talk about Spencer's fucking ableist plotline? I think we do.

Cameron: I think we do but like what the fuck.

Deepa: Okay. When we got to Philly and Spencer was looking around and they said something about a toy store. I was like, “Oh, we're gonna get doll hospital.”

Cameron: No, I knew it was blind school.

Cameron: I'm doll hospital isn't for a bit.

Deepa: Oh!

Cameron: We have to be weird and fucked up first to earn doll hospital.

Deepa: Manipulate people into giving you information about Jenna, because they think that you're friends. And then the information that you get is all like super positive, and it doesn't change anything for you.

Cameron: No, but like I think she interprets it as like Jenna's conniving. Jenna is like really.

Deepa: Haven't got through things. Yeah.

Cameron: yeah.

Deepa: That character is legitimately like. I don't know if I would have made it through if Jenna hadn't been there like.

Cameron: And she's like…

Deepa: yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, that scene is fucked. Yeah, Spencer, just like being there in general. Yeah.

Deepa: Stealing.

Cameron: Stealing shit. we get in the second episode. Some, you know. Jenna just appears, you know. Using the bathroom, and that's creepy.

Deepa: Like she was just happened to be in there like, what else do you do if you're in there, and someone you don't like is talking. You wait until they leave to come out of the bathroom.

Cameron: You do that.

Deepa: So you don't have to interact with the person you hate.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Come on!

Cameron: And yeah, we just get like. I mean, I think the only part where it's like we have Jenna being like fucked up with Toby. Obviously. Super fucked up. Like threatening him, and like weird, just like power stuff. There.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. But then we have, like Emily threatening Jenna.

Deepa: No.

Cameron: Just like Jesus Christ guys, can we like?

Deepa: yeah, no, it's all. It's all fucked up. No one is doing. No one is doing the right thing like it's just, I don't know. don't even really get the title of the second episode, because it was barely about Ali, you know, like it was barely about Ali and Jenna's interactions, at least, like all they. They found out that in the book Jenna said that Ali visited her at the school the day of Ali's murder, and they find out that Ali's name is not in there. They probably don't know yet that Ali sometimes use fake names. So that's one thing like. I guess maybe Jenna could have lied about the timing of it. But that scene definitely happened right. Ali does definitely go to visit her.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I don't know why she would lie about what day it was so like. We do find out that Jenna's more mixed up in the NAT Club than they thought, and like. That's another shitty thing Jenna's been doing.

Cameron: That she's.

Deepa: Basically supporting the NAT Club, but like so does Melissa.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But yeah, there wasn't like a ton about Ali in that second episode. So it was kind of weird.

Cameron: Is it Hanna, then?

Deepa: Oh!

Cameron: “The blond leading the…” yeah.

Deepa: I don’t think Hanna and Jenna even interact in that episode. They do?

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Emily and Spencer do.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. did they just think it was funny and grossly use that? Okay, cool.

Cameron: My thought, yeah.

Deepa: God.

Cameron: Never miss an opportunity. For that.

Deepa: Ugh! The Ali flashback that we do get is interesting.

Deepa: I thought when she said, “Back alleys and backyards have always been the best way to my house,” that was so Ali.

Cameron: So funny. You're just like creating more like intrigue.

Deepa: The way she talks. which is like one thing that definitely changes when she's actually in the show, because you can't really sustain a character on, like. being like this cryptic. You know what I mean right like she becomes a main character.

Cameron: She like has to like, actually communicate with people, and like, go to school.

Deepa: So there's some degree of like their flashbacks, of her being very heightened and in heightened moments, right? But.

Cameron: Sure. No, that was.

Deepa: A very Ali line.

Cameron: You would remember the time, your friend said, like something wild.

Deepa: Right before you found, you know, something trashed on her porch. Yeah, yeah. : I did think it was wild that Ali actually apologized to them for the prank, you know not.

Cameron: Good.

Deepa: Makes much of a difference. But you just say I'm sorry.

Cameron: She said, “I'm sorry.” Oh, and then, like, yeah, she's obviously scared and wanting to not be alone.

Deepa: Yeah. I am glad that they found what's in the doll. I guess it was more than one note by that point. She must put a lot of them there. but that does feel important that they know that they existed before.

Cameron: yeah. it's such a. I guess it's not a reveal to us the viewers. but for them I think it's like, oh, gosh! What is our timeline even like? What are we working with.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And like. I think it furthers the narrative that A might have killed Ali right? Because they've not always been thinking that A is Ali’s murderer necessarily.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But if someone was planning this for so long, or like not planning this, but harboring, you know, and torturing Ali for so long, then.

Cameron: Why not?

Deepa: Why not?

Cameron: I was waiting for Melissa to come in the room.

Deepa: God.

Cameron: And it didn't happen.

Deepa: It didn't. But you know what did happen first was we did get the I know you wanna kiss me. Seen again.

Cameron: God! Thank God! We saw that another time.

Deepa: I thought we'd say the last of it, but no.

Cameron: I.

Deepa: Ian, revealing way too early that he planted a camera is so silly because, of course, Garrett's gonna try to take it from you. Why didn't you just leave that and blackmail him later.

Cameron: Like, that's yeah, not a great.

Deepa: You're not very good at this Ian.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Also. Yeah, Jenna, being there is pretty fucked up, cause I obviously she and Garrett were together already, because we know that from later scenes. But I didn't. I wasn't sure how much she knew about NAT Club before. You know.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: it seems like enough for her to be there before they had that weird interaction with Ali. She then thinks Garrett killed her.

Cameron: Things Garrett killed Ali.

Deepa: Silliest interaction.

Cameron: Oh, yeah. like an Ian.

Deepa: Yeah, there was. You're right about this. These 2 episodes being so much about, you know. What do we tell people what do we lie about, because there's obviously that narrative, and that is where Aria storyline, too.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: God! Holden!

Cameron: And Holden. Who's not gay? Okay.

Deepa: Who's not gay. “Not gay!” For some reason my sister referenced that song last night, too.

Cameron: So funny.

Deepa: I have actually seen that full movie. But I think the only thing that's important is that song.

Cameron: I have not seen that before.

Deepa: You don't need to. You don't need to like a Lonely Island movie is kind of a little too much, you know.

Cameron: It worked.

Deepa: Better, in short.

Cameron: Yeah, that's right.

Deepa: I think music videos are better. But yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Holden’s so funny, like the way he talks is really funny.

Deepa: I don't exactly know how to describe it, but it feels like he kind of overemphasizes different words, and I would expect, or something like in his.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: I don't have more than that. I'm just like kind of laughing every time he talks.

Cameron: Are you? Is those like linguistic analysis.

Deepa: Analysis? No. it's just maybe it's like, you are funny.

Cameron: He is funny. I feel like the things he says are like he's trying to be awkward, or he is awkward.

Deepa: That's it. Yeah.

Cameron: Or like he. I don't know cause he was like my parents will write, you would think, you know, like he's just like saying shit. I don't know.

Deepa: Exactly, exactly. But the thing is he's saying them kind of boldly. So it's like, almost like he doesn't. It's it is. It is almost like he's trying to sound awkward.

Cameron: I think that's what it is. Yeah.

Deepa: He's not actually that awkward like he. He says funny things, but demeanor wise. He's not very awkward.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Like. Supposedly he and Aria have known each other forever, so.

Cameron: Maybe he just didn't know he was gay when he was 5.

Deepa: Exactly.

Deepa: I did forget that they call him a beard. It's not just us.

Cameron: Right, yes, although.

Deepa: So Emily seems to be mixed out about who would be the beard if he's gay at all?

Cameron: That's fine, you know.

Deepa: She's a baby. Queer. She's learning.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Well, guess what I do have literary analysis about before.

Cameron: Fucking play.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: You? Okay, hit me.

Deepa: Have you seen it?

Cameron: No.

Deepa: I have not either, but I did read it.

Cameron: Before this, or just for this.

Deepa: So for this.

Deepa: It's a play! I was like, I can knock this out. Can I tell you about it?

Cameron: Yes, please.

Deepa: Okay. So A View From the Bridge by Arthur Miller. It was from the fifties, and it's about an Italian American family. The main character is Eddie Carbone, or “Carboni”. Probably “Carboni”, ends with an E. Who is a longshoreman in Brooklyn and his wife. He lives with his wife Beatrice, and their niece. Catherine. Catherine is Beatrice's sister's daughter, and Catherine's parents both died when she was a kid, so they've raised her aunt and uncle, and the story starts with Beatrice having some extended family from Italy, who are coming over as immigrants, but they are coming over as undocumented immigrants, and so a lot of the and a lot of this neighborhood that they live in in Brooklyn. This Italian American neighborhood has a lot of folks who have come in, you know, basically hiding on ships, and they're sort of a there's like hints at a they call it like a syndicate that then like helps arrange this and then helps get them jobs, not necessarily helps get them papers, but helps get them jobs as a way to pay off their debt, and then they then, once they pay off their debt to the syndicate who brought them over. Then they're sort of left on their own, and so there's a lot early on in the play about how you know they have to. They're going to be letting Beatrice's cousin sleep at their place. And so they have to really careful, and not tell anyone that they're sleeping there, and Eddie keeps impressing on his niece Catherine, who is like 17. I think at this point that she can't tell anyone, because it's not just that they would get caught. It's that whoever tipped off immigration would be a pariah in the neighborhood, because that has happened before, and like.

Cameron: Sure.

Deepa: Everyone is, you know, super against that. But the weird, the weirdest part about the play, like really what is central to the play is the relationship between Eddie and Catherine.

Cameron: Nooooo.

Deepa: Yeahhhh.

Cameron: Why?

Deepa: Well, so it's never. It's like all very vague, right, but like from the beginning, Catherine is. She has finished high school. She is in stenography school, and she gets a job offer before she's finished her certificate, but with the idea that if she takes this job and works there for a few months, then she'll get her certificate after that, like the school set up this job for her. So she really wants to go do this, and Eddie is immediately super against it. Her aunt wants her to go to do it, too and he's like super overprotective of her. so that's like the first tension, but he gives in on that one.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: Also we find out he's not having sex with his wife. maybe a separate thing? obviously not a separate thing. So then, so then the cousins appear, and they are named Marco and Rodolfo. They're brothers. They're like distant cousins of Beatrice and. They're younger right like they're in their twenties. I think, and Rodolfo and Catherine start having a romance that they're going out. And then it just like Eddie's like resentment and possessiveness just start escalating and escalating and escalating. And it's really gross. And, like, you know, at some point Eddie consults a lawyer who is like actually the narrator of this play a neighborhood lawyer being like, what can I do to make him stop like taking her out for dates? And he's like nothing. She's an adult, I guess I think she's 17, but they keep saying she's an adult. So maybe she's 18, anyway. And so yeah, just like the tension keeps escalating. And it just keeps getting grosser and weirder. And eventually what happens is that Eddie calls immigration on them right like that's.

Cameron: Jesus Christ.

Deepa: Right? Yeah. So that's what it escalates to. And the whole time this is happening, everyone's kind of talking around his possessiveness of Catherine, and even though he, like tells the lawyer like, you know, something's being stolen from me like she's property, and then they like once in a while call him a father figure. But then they also talk about how Catherine needs to like stop going around the apartment in just her slip, and like stop like hanging out with him when he's shirtless and stuff, and it's just like it's obviously there and ends in them being taken away by immigration. And then, but then they both get bail, and when they're on bail, Marco, or before they get taken away. Marco, who for the most part has been like a quiet character, and Eddie has liked Marco accuses Eddie of being the one who tipped off immigration, and he denies it. So that's as they're being dragged off after they've made bail. They come back to the house to get their stuff before they, you know, go to trial, or whatever. And Eddie challenges Marco to a fight, basically. And Marco, like this whole time, has been described as very strong. He's like very good at the job on the docks and whatever. And so in the fight, Marco, like Eddie, Eddie, takes a knife out, and then Marco like deflects it back onto Eddie himself, and he stabs himself and dies at the end. And yeah, and like, you know, I think like in the lead up to his death is like the first time, like his wife again, has sort of been talking around all of this stuff with Catherine, but like the first time she actually says something that is really getting at it, and that he's like shocked and horrified that that would be a thought, you know. And then, as he's dying like the last thing he says is his wife's name and not Catherine's name, so I guess we're supposed to believe that in his last moments he was like thinking more about his life than about Catherine. It's just all like Super fucked up. And also, I'm like they chose this play? I have to. If they were thinking about it. have to assume there's some weird parallel of like Aria is Catherine, and Rodolfo is Ezra. But like that's actually not the parallel I would take from this play right? like I would take the like older position of power figure abusive, you know, being an abusive position over a possessive position over the younger woman. But I don't know if that's what we're supposed to take.

Cameron: I think we're. supposed to see that like forces, evil forces have torn them apart.

Deepa: Yeah, that their narrative is a forbidden love narrative. And like family, you know, resentment narrative, not like a this is fucked up. So that's why I wanted to talk about it so much, because I was like, I do actually feel like there are parallels here, but that's the wrong parallels to what I assume. The show is trying to.

Cameron: Yeah. The teacher that is not Ezra whose name I forget.

Deepa: Mrs. Welch.

Cameron: Thank you. Says that it's about “misplaced passion”.

Deepa: Yeah, I know, I know. So then I read it. And I was like, I went back and checked what she said about it, because I wanted to make sure. And I'm like. I guess in that sense Eddie's passion is what's misplaced. not the love story between Rodolfo and Catherine, but like. but even then I feel like the narrative is supposed to be like, Oh, Aria's parents are so overprotective, and, like. you know, halting their love story, and like that's the path. You know what I mean. I don't know. I could be wrong. It could be not a parallel at all, but it felt like there probably was something.

Cameron: They choose things for a reason, you know.

Deepa: Oh!

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: They could have chosen Death of a Salesman. That's a more famous Arthur Miller play so. or The Crucible. So you know they chose this one. and Ezra loves Arthur Miller. So.

Cameron: Ezra loves Arthur Miller.

Deepa: I. The only other Miller I've read before is The Crucible in high school, but. it was a good read, I'm sure. written very well. I just am like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, I think I think what's like skillfully done in the writing is the like talking around. You know Eddie's actual motivations are on Catherine. Would you like? clearly complicated, but clearly like, he's attracted to her, and like wants her for himself, you know, in whatever way that is.

Cameron: Yeah. yeah, no. But yeah, Ezra got sick.

Deepa: Yeah. So you know, he didn't get to see he didn't get to see the misplaced passion.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah, the like, both slow motion, him appearing in the first episode, and then the like. him showing up in the second episode, and they're like. you know, making out in the rain whatever. But then their conversation after was nuts.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, it? It?

Cameron: If you're just like, what are we talking about like, “We're crazy, aren't we?”

Deepa: “How are we gonna do this for the rest of our lives?” What.

Cameron: What?

Deepa: Ugh!

Cameron: I think 11pm. Is too late. As a curfew.

Deepa: Probably.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: Did you have a curfew in high school.

Cameron: I was like a huge nerd. I don't think I like had a curfew.

Deepa: I was also a huge nerd, but I hung out with my other nerd friends late sometimes.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah.

Deepa: But did you have a like? Did you have a time? You had to be home when you were hanging out with your friends, or whatever.

Cameron: I'm not sure.

Deepa: Mine was 1am, but that was because of driving rules, because teenagers weren't supposed to drive between 1am and 5am.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: So that was my curfew, but that was later than 11.

Cameron: Just okay in not like, generally 11 whatever, but like in this specific reason.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Why is not like they leave at 7, and she comes. Pick them up at 11. That's too long.

Deepa: I guess. But if you're like trusting that your daughter is doing the right thing, even while you know what I mean like. I don't know if, like being more strict with what Aria does with her time, and who she connects with is like the way out of this. I think, like the way out of this is like explaining to Aria why you're worried about this because they never fucking do that. They just go with like this is wrong, and you need to be, you know we you need to not. This is wrong, right like this is wrong and bad, and you need to stop seeing this person immediately and cut off. You know what I mean, like. I actually don't think the stricter surveillance of her is. No, no, it's not just like this is fucked up. It's like, I don't know that it will work because it's clearly not working.

Cameron: It's not working. Yeah.

Deepa: She's a teenager. She's has a lot of ways to be independent. And I just don't think that trying to restrict those is gonna be successful or helpful. So she's gonna get around them.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: So. you know, I'm glad that they're trusting her with something. It's weird that, like the only thing she's allowed to do is like, hang out with a guy, I guess, cause the idea is that she'll date him instead. But.

Cameron: Yeah, very weird. But that's fine, I guess.

Deepa: Rather than just being stuck at home and not talking to anyone right.

Cameron: Yes, yes.

Deepa: Or should be. If they were doing this the right way.

Cameron: Yeah. I just like, what's Mike's take, you know.

Deepa: Like I.

Cameron: I haven't seen Mike.

Deepa: Yeah, there weren't a lot. There actually weren't that many family moments.

Cameron: We got two parents.

Deepa: Two parents, and we didn't get Ella till the second episode, so.

Cameron: Yeah, so I guess that's our choices right there.

Deepa: Oh, I went with Byron for worst, even though he wasn't there.

Cameron: Even though he wasn't there. Amazing.

Deepa: I was just like he got mentioned. So I support that. I do.

Cameron: Yeah, I didn't want to give it to Ella, but I was like.

Deepa: Like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I guess you could say Ella's worst, for the reasons I just said, which is that I think they're going about this the wrong way. But I but again I sort of get it like I get that in the moment. It's not easy to I get that in the moment it would be tempting to fall back on. I'm the parent, and I'm right, rather than actually explaining to you the hard truths about, you know, power, and that you are vulnerable to abuse right.

Cameron: I just think like. yes, I'm not disagreeing with you. Yeah, I just like there's this narrative and understanding that Aria is like so mature. And so and so like, I just feel like in coming from that angle. Yeah, she would be able to handle that conversation. Maybe they wouldn't be able to handle that conversation, or like I don't know like they. I feel like. if that's your narrative like she deserves that, like, you know.

Deepa: No, I think I think you're right. I think it's them. I don't think it's Aria.

Cameron: Okay. Yeah.

Deepa: Them not being able to like wrap their head around this, because they're so like repulsed and horrified by it, you know, and they go to their default, which I think in this case is like. oh, we were wrong to give you so much independence. In the first place, right like. think there's some level of like honestly like too much self-recrimination about this, like, I think there's some feeling of like we did something wrong. And that's what made Aria do this. they have done things wrong. That's not what made Aria vulnerable to abuse, except in that like she had to, you know, like. The only thing that made her more vulnerable. To abuse is Byron, you know.

Cameron: Byron.

Deepa: Byron. But, like again, that's like not. It's you know what I mean like, it's still not in their control. In that sense. So I think maybe some piece of it is them like them not wanting to admit that they don't have control over this. So it's easier to be like. “Oh, no, we did something wrong, but we can fix it.”

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: “We can be stricter with her. We can treat. We can treat her the way we see other parents treating their kids. and that'll work because they weren't vulnerable to abuse.” except they were.

Cameron: All are.

Deepa: All are, and all get abused in some way, like maybe not, Emily. But we don't know how old fucking Talia is, but she's married.

Cameron: She has to be an adult.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: The adults are married.

Deepa: In Pennsylvania. Legally, probably.

Cameron: I think child, marriage is like with parental consent. Legal more places than we think it is.

Deepa: Oh no, it's just like fucking age of consent. Laws.

Cameron: Probably I just remember recently reading some nonsense, or like I don't know. I just feel like it's less I think it's worse, you know, than usually.

Deepa: Yes, you're probably right? I, yeah. Yeah, it's just. It's just so. Yeah, I don't know. It's just so. It infuriates me so much, because, like. I don't even think Byron and Ella's motivations are wrong right now, right like it's just so frustrating to see them not explain them properly to Aria. because the other thing about assuming she's mature enough for this conversation is, I feel like, actually the conversation is going to have to involve some of her realizing that maturity doesn't get her into like a place of not being abused. You know what I mean. Like, she's not actually. She's still a teenager. She's still a child. You're not an adult just because you get treated what? Like one by, you know your parents.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So obviously, that's what she's gonna push back on when they reinforce that part of it.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And there's and then it, and then it becomes like personal about Ezra. Then it becomes like, oh, if they could only see!

Cameron: You know. What did she fucking? Say? She said something to Spencer, maybe, like. “I thought my parents would be chill. They think he's a great guy.”

Deepa: Oh, I missed that. I think.

Cameron: I think it was something exactly like that, like I don't know if I wrote it down, but it was like I thought they would be more cool with this. Cause, they know. They love him.

Deepa: Yeah. No. Like.

Cameron: Oh, “I thought my parents would understand!”

Deepa: Oh, okay, and. 

Cameron: Then like something about how they know him, and.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cameron: Think he's a cool dude.

Deepa: Right? Exactly. So. It's like he's different, you know, from those other teachers that could be creepy like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: He's a good guy. you know.

Cameron: Oh my god! I was probably on TikTok, and I saw a preview or a trailer for a new movie with Lindsay Lohan, and it's starring. This man.

Deepa: Noooo.

Cameron: and I'm like I can't. Watch that! What do you? What how? How? No.

Deepa: Oh, absolutely.

Cameron: Why not?

Deepa: No, no, no.

Deepa: I want Lindsay Lohan to have a career again, but not at that expense.

Cameron: I will not subject myself to that.

Deepa: No, definitely, not.

Cameron: I will only do it two times for every other week, for the rest of our lives.

Deepa: What's already sailed on this. We're watching Pretty Little Liars for the fourth time like makes me think of. We'll be with them. Anna, is it, Anna? What's her name? Where she finds out that the average person has only had sex with this number of guys. So she has to re have sex with previous guys. What does that mean? Film.

Cameron: What's Your Number?

Deepa: What's Your Number? Thank you. And what's her name?

Cameron: Anna. Oh, I'll come up with it…Faris.

Deepa: Anna. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Anna Faris. Yes, yes. So that's you know the vote is already sailed. We've already watched few little Liars like.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: Right.

Cameron: That's true. So we aren't doing more harm to ourselves. But and ruining our marriage prospects is that the.

Deepa: We're probably ruining our marriage prospects by rewatching so many times. But you know.

Cameron: Damn!

Deepa: You know, if anything, we've gotten more and more critical, and you know, angry at us are over our rewatches. So we're fine.

Cameron: That's true.

Deepa: Okay, I have one other literary analysis. Really.

Cameron: Great.

Deepa: Ezra so first of all, why is Ezra giving people bad grades because his terrible life is terrible?

Cameron: Been always like a what do you call that like? Retributary? No.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: Retributive, retributive. Retributive teacher, like, he's always like doing. Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, definitely.

Cameron: Ew.

Deepa: Yeah, it's gross. And that student at the end of that scene says, “Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.”

Cameron: Yeah, what the fuck is that.

Deepa: Okay, so it's often attributed to the German writer. Johann Wolfgang Goethe. I think, is how it's pronounced. G-O-E-T-H-E. I think it's “Guh-tuh.’

Cameron: Oh, okay.

Deepa: But that's incorrect. 

Cameron: Oh sure.

Deepa: Who do? Who do you think it actually is? I mean, it's not. You're not. Gonna guess it's someone.

Cameron: Probably not going to.

Deepa: Really obscure. It's actually by a Canadian writer named Basil King, who was previously in the clergy, and then wrote books after he retired. And so it's from. But also, not only is the quote misattributed. The quote is actually wrong.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: The actual quote is, “Go at it boldly, and you'll find unexpected forces closing around you and coming to your aid.” Which is not as pithy, so I guess I get why they changed it. But it's still silly, and it's from a book that is about like it's from a book called The Conquest of Fear, which Project Gutenberg describes as philosophical work that explores the persuasive nature of fear in human life, and offers a spiritual perspective on overcoming it. So the mighty forces are God like it's not. It's not vague, right? But I don't think that's what it's supposed to be in for the Liars.

Cameron: What's it supposed to be like? Fate?

Deepa: I think, like, yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Fate, which I guess I guess has a you know.

Cameron: Could be God adjacent.

Deepa: It's not like explicitly, God.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: Other than all the scenes in the church and Pastor Ted. there's not like a ton of Christianity.

Cameron: It's not a ton.

Deepa: There’s cultural Christianity. For sure. so yeah, I don't know what to make of that, except that it's a. Yeah, it's like, not a real quote from, not the person that people think it's from.

Cameron: Okay, I was. It made me think of you know the quote that people say. Nelson Mandela said that like, “Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, but that we are powerful beyond measure.” But. He did not say that right.

Deepa: Oh, okay. Okay.

Cameron: Do you know who said that?

Deepa: No!

Cameron: Marianne Williamson. In like one of her fucking books.

Deepa: One of her books. Oh my god! Really? That's wild. Yeah, that's very silly. Wow. wow, yeah. okay, I had one other literary insight I forgot about. 

Cameron: Oh, great. 

Deepa: Last time I was talking about how I think it's sad that Holden and Ezra are really the only like people like Aria, love interests. Okay. Aria love interests who have literary names right? And then I realized, there is another person in Aria's life who has literary name, which is Byron. I'm just like, why is it the men in Aria's life. Only the men in Aria's life, you know, and not all of them, obviously. But like like, you could say, it's the people who are into English, but Holden's not Holden's just there. He just happens to have a literary name. And I got on this track of like trying to think through. Like, you know, I talk about how I hate most of the types of writers that they profile in in their literary references. But I was thinking about it, and I should go back and actually look. But I don't think they've actually ever referenced an author of color, and I think they've only referenced like maybe 2 women, you know. Like to be fair. One of them is Harper Lee, who gets a lot of attention, but, like Harper Lee…

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And then there's like there's like some one off mentions of like you, like one of the books I talked about last week is by a woman, Carson McCullers, and you know they are definitely mentions of books by women, but not of the like classic Americana type references. You know what I mean. So. that's annoying. I don't know if we're gonna get an author of color, we'll see.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like they exist in this era that you're writing about this like, you know, I don't know. Like 1890s to 1960s era of Americana writing. They exist. They're there. But no, you gotta go with like the Kerouac and the Fitzgerald and the.

Cameron: Oh god, the Kerouac.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: yeah. And it's just like reinforcing that, you know, like the dudes are who are the like intellectuals.

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: Are the creatives who are the like. yeah.

Deepa: Which is odd, because, like Aria herself, is obviously so. You know, interested in literature and writing and everything, and like she goes into it as a field, too, like what she doesn't go into an academic route. But still she's working in. You know the literary industry.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But she doesn't get a literary name, as far as I know.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't think so.

Deepa: Okay. That was all my literary analysis.

Cameron: Thank you so much. Thank you for reading a play.

Deepa: It didn’t take me very long, plays are short.

Cameron: Okay. me and our listeners still appreciate it. Okay, we don't have. Do we have any more, Ezra? Like fuck you things or.

Deepa: No, no! We can move on from it.

Cameron: Great. Bye! I guess I'm fine to reveal my outfits now, if we wanna go back.

Deepa: It's late enough in the episode.

Cameron: I feel comfortable.

Deepa: Okay. What was your best.

Cameron: Okay. So I. I really liked Hanna's outfit with the braid. That was kind of complicated looking. and she was wearing a beanie situation. That sort of looked like what Aria is wearing in my worst outfit. But it was a different beanie different, beanie, so.

Deepa: Why don't I remember this? I watched these episodes last night.

Cameron: last night? Okay, yeah. Hanna's wearing like a maroon Beanie situation. The braid is so cool it's like a fishtail braid, maybe, but it's like giant, and then goes small.

Deepa: What else is she wearing?

Cameron: She's wearing like a leather jacket and like then a little black skirt, and maybe something leopard print. Yes.

Deepa: Okay, I remember the leopard print, and there's like a there's like a scarf around her, actually something tied around her neck, too. Or is it just a necklace?

Cameron: I think it's just a necklace. I just. I love that braid, and the outfit was cute.

Deepa: Okay, okay. I was not as big on that outfit. I'm sure I would have liked the braid, but I was not as big on the leopard print.

Cameron: I just think, yeah, I love leopard print when it's done. Well.

Deepa: Yeah. yeah. My best was like I said, Mona's up like Bohemian hippie outfit, which is like, Yeah, I don't know. Like if Aria had worn it, it'd probably be like, oh, whatever.

Cameron: Yeah. 

Deepa: Mona looked really good in it, but I think my second was Emily's outfit, for the concert was pretty good. I just anytime. Emily wears a leather jacket. It's good, right.

Cameron: Very good.

Deepa: So I'm like, I'm like that. I don't know if it was a dress or a top and a skirt. I didn't look at it properly, but it's like blue, and it's got this like. Sparkly stuff down the middle. Nice. And also that scene was nice, so.

Cameron: Yeah. Fair.

Deepa: Sounds like we had the same worst.

Cameron: Oh my god! What the fuck was going on.

Deepa: The necklace.

Cameron: The necklace. The vest. so like the pants. have, like whole. Patches of holes.

Deepa: So many things! start from the top, Beanie on her head. Terrible. You go down. The necklace is like a chain, but it's like a proper chain like it's not like a necklace chain. It's like.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: You would use to tie something up. It's huge.

Cameron: It's links. It's giant. And I thought it was gonna be like a lock for some reason. But it's like. A Pendant.

Deepa: I thought it was a lock. I thought the pendant was a lock.

Cameron: Oh, I wrote “lock necklace”, and then I wrote “it's a pendant”. I don't know. Maybe I was confusing myself, but it was horrifying.

Deepa: It was horrifying. And yeah, describe the vest, because describe it.

Cameron: Fuzzy pink, bright pink.

Deepa: Bright pink.

Cameron: Fuzzy like what the fuck.

Deepa: It didn't even look like a vest. At first it looked like a boa around her neck or something, but it like you can tell that it like goes around.

Cameron: It was connected. Yeah.

Deepa: Then the jeans were like shredded. They were like just like whole, like just like cutouts, right like cutouts on the sides of the jeans.

Cameron: In really weird way, like it was.

Deepa: You could have. Just not done that. So many things in that outfit you could have just.

Cameron: I don't know if we've agreed like this in a long time.

Deepa: It's true. It's been a little while.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: That one was so bad I just didn't even consider any other outfit, and it was the first one.

Cameron: Just showed up, and I was like, oh my god! Oh, but yeah, upon my rewatch different beanies. So.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: Wasn't Aria's was like. had flowers on it.

Deepa: Oh, okay. I didn't notice that.

Cameron: Another complication. Yeah. but I felt weird doing a bad and a best that had beanies. But it's what it is.

Deepa: You know we've done. I guess we haven't done a best before. But we had that one episode where we hated Emily's beanie, but liked Caleb's beanie so.

Cameron: Oh, true. Okay. Yeah.

Deepa: So. Aria's beanies are never good. The other Aria outfit that reminds me of is what she wears to party in the woods. Mona’s camping, one is living.

Cameron: Oh, yeah, yeah. 

Deepa: Camp Mona! Really bad, Beanie. Really bad.

Cameron: Terrible Beanie, I don't hard to say, what's even going, on there. yeah, i'm oh. Oh my gosh. okay. this isn't, this is completely not related to beanies, but because we were talking about, or the we're sort of talking about Holden’s sexuality. Yeah. Are there gay men in the show? Do we have gays that are men?

Deepa: I don't think we do. I've thought about it before. Yeah. And I don't think we ever do. Yeah. yeah, which is interesting we do in The Perfectionists. But not.

Cameron: True.

Deepa: But not in the regular show that I can think of.

Cameron: Yeah, I was like, that's so interesting.

Deepa: It is interesting. I don't know what to make of it, really cause I guess it's just like most dudes are love interests or family members, but you could. But there are a few friends, you know. and then you have, like dudes.

Cameron: There's the periphery, you know. There's like people in the school. There's a lot of people.

Deepa: There's a lot of people in the school, but like. but most of the dudes they interact with are either positioned as a as potentially a love interest at the beginning. Right? Like. you know. Yeah, you could have bi dudes you could have. You could have Holden actually be gay right like it makes more sense that he's secretly MMA fighting.

Cameron: Oh my god! It does.

Deepa: I mean it is less hilarious than him, being secretly MMA fighting. but.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, I just think

Deepa: I just can't think of. You know, they don't really have that many dude friends who isn't someone's love interest right like Toby is Emily's friend, but Spencer's love interest. Andrew, I guess, is a love interest, because he and Spencer play like weird strip poker once right.

Cameron: They do. Yeah, they do.

Deepa: Lucas obviously is in love with Hanna, but could be in love with Caleb, too. We just don't know. But never made explicitly clear.

Cameron: Yeah, for me.

Deepa: And then there’s just like brothers.

Cameron: Yeah. Brothers could be gay.

Deepa: I know, Brothers could be gay. Brothers also end up being love interests for the most part.

Cameron: That's true.

Deepa: Certainly both Mike and Jason are love interests for other Liars. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

Cameron: Yeah, maybe I'll have a take on it at some point. I do not right now.

Deepa: Yeah. Holden is probably your best bet.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But I think we, I mean other than Alison and Emily. You know, in The Perfectionists they're the, you know, the there's like the student main characters right and like one of them, is gay. I don't think anyone in the students in that is a lesbian, but given that, we have Ali and Mona both being queer like. Maybe that's why.

Cameron: They're like overrepresentation.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Hmm, okay. Sorry. I just had to go there for.

Deepa: No? Good question. Good question. Yeah.

Deepa: Okay, there's some Mona things that I just want to pull out because they were in fun. So mostly A things. So Mona, chewing out Hanna about not listening to her, and then immediately doing the trick in the bathroom with the Sinks in the boat.

Cameron: Yes. I loved that I love. Oh, that was so good.

Deepa: Also. You previewed this at some point, but we got the worms trick. the worms in the takeout boxes.

Cameron: We did. I love that one. It's so gross.

Deepa: Really gross. It's really gross. I love it. And the note saying, or the message saying, “This is what live bait looks like.”

Cameron: Yeah, that coupled with the pond water is just like a little. It's just gross stuff all around. Yeah.

Deepa: Yes, yes, absolutely. Mona saying, “I never knew anyone who could lie like that!” about Noel.

Cameron: I loved that! Like, “You look in his eyes, and you're just like, ‘Oh.’”

Deepa: And then at the very end, Mona just having a mood board of all the Liars, kissing their partner, and then dramatically setting all their partners on fire.

Cameron: She got dumped. She's gotta light these like these. Pick these dudes on fire.

Deepa: So. Yeah, Mona, I'm glad she was around more.

Cameron: Oh, me, too. It's like I would feel bad for her. But I can't, because I'm like, Oh, yeah. Hanna isn't like giving you enough like attention right now. And it's like, Yeah, that's shitty. But like also, you're ruining her life.

Deepa: No, it's true!

Cameron: So funny. Yeah, I love her.

Deepa: Oh, one other quote one other quote when she says, “Life is but a dream, Hanna, and I'm your nightmare.”

Cameron: Yes, yes. Hmm. yeah. I was so happy we got so much, Mona. These episodes.

Deepa: I do like the beginnings of. you know Spencer and Mona kind of connecting more, and then that leads up to the end of the season. Right? Spencer's actually like starts teaming up with Mona and stuff. Yeah, like, Mona, like claims to also be getting texts from someone right? Like, there's this whole.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: Story she spins, which is really fun, and then.

Cameron: Winds up in them in a car together.

Deepa: In a car together. Yeah.

Cameron: oh, I love the end of the season.

Deepa: Well, most of it. Then we get the horrible thing.

Cameron: Yeah. I love that part of the end of this.

Deepa: I love all of the Mona reveal parts. Yes.

Cameron: I guess I don't think we talked about Caleb enough.

Deepa: No, we didn't talk about him much. Okay.

Cameron: Like cause. Then it's silly, because he is also trying to lie to Hanna to protect her. And I just wish we could stop this nonsense.

Deepa: Convoluted. and it's like it's like you want to lie to him again. I get it. I do get it. But also you all are lying to so many people. It's really funny of like where you're drawing the lines. I don't know. I respect that. You're drawing the lines at the Liars like people you tell between 2. But still it is kind of funny.

Cameron: It's very funny. like.

Deepa: Yeah. you know. And from Caleb's perspective, like what we were saying earlier about, you know, like, why don't you just tell him the whole thing like. He already knows that Jenna and the Liars hate each other because Jenna paid him to spy on Hanna.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So. and he obviously knows that there's stuff about Ali's death, that is, you know, confusing or like. I guess I guess maybe he doesn't know how much. It's confusing, because everyone still thinks that Ian just did it. But other secrets in their past right? So why not? Just I don't know also, why is he working on this in the middle of the small town where they live?

Cameron: Right like. Of course, Garrett's just gonna be there.

Deepa: That's what always happens in Rosewood.

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah, no Melissa, though, not yet.

Deepa: Not yet, not yet.

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: Yeah. I don't remember how long the like Caleb, lying about lying to Hanna about him, helping them goes on.

Cameron: It's so silly. I'm just like, okay. It’s also funny for Hanna to destroy a USB and think that that's destroying the thing. I think that's very like, you know.

Deepa: Absolutely, like, no backups. No. you know we had backups in like 2012 or 2013.

Cameron: They're just it. He wouldn't only have it on that. He, he did it on his computer.

Deepa: I do just love that her first thought was, I'm gonna destroy this by putting it in a blender. I would never have thought.

Cameron: Put it in water. What do you mean?

Deepa: I don't know.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Cause. Then you have to throw away the blender.

Cameron: Yeah. And you had all these nice things out to make a smoothie. And now you can't make a smoothie.

Deepa: It's got USB bits in it. And then you have to explain to your mom why you had to throw away the blender.

Cameron: With the blender. Oh, I guess that's what we should explicitly say. Our best parent. Was Ashley. Ashley, Great.

Deepa: I mean that it was a good conversation.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: It was. It was a good conversation, and I mean I do. It is kind of wild that the biggest secret she ever kept from Tom is that his best friend made a pass at her. It's like a big secret in the context of a normal marriage, just not in a Pretty Little Liars marriage.

Cameron: Not in a Pretty Little Liars marriage. Those people have other children. They have other. Secret siblings like I don't know.

Deepa: Ashley's just being too normal here. later. She's gonna have secrets later. She's gonna have huge secrets. But right now she her first marriage. Was not that chaotic? I guess.

Cameron: No, he just sucked.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: Okay, is it time?

Deepa: Yes, I think it is time. Chickpeas Oh My Gosh!

Cameron: Chickpeas Oh My Gosh! Okay, it is me for chickpeas. Oh my gosh! So I don't have a recipe per se. I have. I guess, like a product endorsement.

Deepa: What?

Cameron: I don't know.

Deepa: Are you getting paid for this?

Cameron: Yeah, I'm getting sponsored. So sponsored content. For those who aren't like my good friends who know me. And you know, text and stuff I like recently got diagnosed with possibly having celiacs, right? So I've had to not eat bread, not eat pasta, or eat like the very shitty versions of these things. devastating obviously. But one of the pastas that I have enjoyed. There's a Chickpea brand of Pasta called Banza.

Deepa: Banza. Okay?

Cameron: B-A-N-Z-A.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: I think. And yeah, I'm coming out as a Banza fan. and if they want to, you know, sponsor the pod. or throw some free gluten free pasta my way. I'd love it. Also. I have not seen this yet. But there's a there's a podcast. Called The Sporkful.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: That's like food. a lot of different food.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: And the dude who hosts it invented a couple of pasta shapes, which is a very complicated drawn out process that he documented over a bunch of episodes. and the first one he invented is called cascatelli, and it's kind of like waterfall ish, and like kind of has these ridges. I've probably made you eat it before. and apparently Banza makes Cascatelli.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: I haven't found it yet, but I am very excited to get my hands on them. Yeah.

Deepa: Okay, okay, what is your do you have a favorite that you've eaten already of the Banza.

Cameron: I was pleasantly surprised by their spaghetti.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: Which is not something I feel like. I've been exploring much so.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Do they have? Oh my god! Why am I gonna forget this? Do they have the pasta with the hole in the center?

Cameron: Bucatini.

Deepa: Bucatini! Thank you.

Cameron: I have not encountered gluten-free Bucatini yet by Banza or any other brand. But I'll let you know. God there was like a bucatini shortage. Wasn't there?

Deepa: Yeah, there was a deep dive investigative article about the Bucatini shortage that went into like where Bucatini comes from. Maybe that's the way out of the shortage is that Banza starts making Chickpea flour bucatini.

Cameron: Yeah. Hell, yeah, get in the business.

Deepa: Oh, man, wow! Well, you know, if we ever were going to be sponsored by anyone other than Pretty Little Liars. I mean, if they still had a show. They could sponsor us, anyway. It would probably be Big Chickpea.

Cameron: They would not sponsor us, could you? What.

Deepa: We hate it.

Cameron: I think our main takeaway is that we hate so much of it.

Deepa: Details!

Cameron: But yeah, Big Chickpea, or Small Chickpea. Any chickpea. sponsor us.

Deepa: We did at 1 point, say we were not on the podcast. We said to each other that we were, gonna do like fake ads that were like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Rosewood themed. But we never did. if anyone wants to. If any. If anyone wants to come on the show and do a fake Rosewood ad. That's another way. You could be on the show without a chickpea recipe.

Cameron: You can do a celebrity Chickpea recipe or a celebrity advertisement. Yeah, we'll accept all.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: You know where to email us. Oh, also, if anyone has gluten, free suggestions! You have our email, don'tforgetthechickpeas@gmail.com. It's a lifestyle change. You know. It takes a village.

Deepa: It's a transition you're working on it.

Cameron: Oh! I think that’s the end. Probably. Thank you all for listening to another episode. yeah, I don't think there's anything else to say except for act normal, bitches.

Deepa: Whoo!