Episodes 2.14 & 2.15: “This Fractured Deceitful Mess”

We stand in full support of Palestinian liberation & believe that Israel should end its genocidal violence and occupation. If you don’t agree, please fuck off.

Content notes: mentions of rape & sexual assault, incest, and adult/minor abuse

We recorded this weeks ago, but fuck America and fuck white supremacy.

We start with a guest spot by pop culture analyst Stitch of Stitch’s Media Mix and the podcast Pages & Prejudice! Then we discuss episodes 2.14, “Through Many Dangers, Toils, and Snares”, and 2.15, “A Hot Piece of A”. Our show notes are too long for a longer summary and things we discuss unrelated to PLL, oops!

Theme song by Ashok R. Chandran. 

Chickpeas Oh My Gosh: Zucchini Chickpea Stir-Fry

Fashion Analysis: see our twitter linked below!

Celebrity Guest Spot!

• Sanitizing villains is harmful 
• If you don’t know what an anti is, read this 
• Omegaverse can be anti-choice

Deepa’s Literary Analysis

• Byron mentions architecture in Henry James's books, so we discuss haunted houses in media
• We recommend His House, The Conjuring, The Babadook, & Silvia Moreno-Garcia’s Mexican Gothic

Sports Corner with Cameron 

• We hope Paige Bueckers is okay
• NIL changes the landscape of college sports
• Diaspora United and The RE-CAP Show discuss Korbin Albert’s homophobia and transphobia

Things We Referenced Related to PLL

• A 2021 ranking of love interests
• Ezra & Aria adopting in Original Sin
• Alison & Emily's divorce in The Perfectionists

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to help Rozan and Aboud, two young people in Gaza, escape genocide with their families. You can find multiple donation options at oldcowcreative.com!

Transcript

Cameron: Hi, everyone! Welcome back to Don't Forget the Chickpeas, your favorite Pretty Little Liars podcast. I'm Cameron.

Deepa: I'm Deepa.

Cameron: Today we have a special guest who's going to introduce themselves.

Stitch: I sure am! I'm Stitch, she/they, and I am a fandom public enemy number one in some circles, many circles. Unfortunately. I previously wrote for Teen Vogue. I have a website, Stitch’s Media Mix. And I currently host Pages & Prejudice, which is a very out of pocket pop culture and fandom podcast. I will say so many things across this episode, I'm so sure, and I'm excited to hop on and talk with you all.

Deepa: We are so excited to have you here. So Stitch is a dear friend of mine from fandom spaces and we are doing something a little different today. Cause Stitch has not watched Pretty Little Liars, or has watched a little bit of the first season, but like when it came out right like?

Stitch: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: So. But we because of Stitch’s pop culture expertise, we wanted to just like have a segment where we talk about some of the dynamics that Cameron and I have been discussing throughout the whole podcast so far, but to do them with someone who can help us unpack them. And specifically, we're thinking about the relationships between like adults and teens on the show. And there are many of them, so many of them with like wild power dynamics as well. Probably the one that is the best known, and that we are the most like haters of is Ezra and aria, which is a student/teacher pairing. That starts from the very beginning of the show, and by the end of the show they're married. So.

Stitch: Oh!

Deepa: Yeah. So that's why we wanted to choose today to talk about this, because the episodes that Cameron and I are going to discuss after Stitch is on for a special segment, include Aria and Ezra like telling Aria's parents that they're together so lots of wild stuff, lots of wild stuff. So, and she's still in high school. He's not her high school teacher anymore. But he was her high school teacher as of like a month ago. So yeah. So we, you know, I think all of our listeners will not be surprised that Cameron and I like are very much haters of all of the adult/teen like relationships, and talk about them as abusive and but that hasn't like always been the case, not for Ezra and Aria, but we certainly have like fondness for some of the adult characters that past fondness for some of the adult characters. So I think that's what I wanted to start with was just like, not that exactly. But how do we like navigate tropes that include these like dynamic that, when normalized, can be really like troubling, and especially you know, in in a show that like does this so consistently and over time with so many different characters. And Stitch, I think that's like the first question I would love to put to you is like, how do you think about, you know, both in your pop culture analysis work and in your podcast where you and Adrie talk about romance fiction like, how do you think about navigating tropes, while, like having the baseline of like yes, like, what happens in fiction is not like neutral right? Like it, it can be, it can. It can impact us. But like also, fiction can be a space where we explore dark themes?

Stitch: So I think of it in like a two-hand situation, right like this is so not real. But then also, like I remember, you know, growing up with like the tail end of Buffy right, and the start of the Buffy comic, and all of my similarly aged nerd friends were like, half appalled and half like titillated by the weird Xander/Dawn thing that happens in the comics. And like that was happening at the same time that. You know, we are ending high school, and we're starting college and like, so you're looking at these relationships. And you're kind of like, oh, like, I don't want this, but I don't not want it, which is kind of the thing that happens with a lot of these TV shows right like, or it did when we were younger. I don't think it happens now, but I think when we were younger there was very much a sense of like, I don't want this like any of my teachers hit on me. I would immediately call the police or tell my mom but it's also like as the dynamic is laid out in the book or the show you're like. It's kind of hot. kind of hot like. And so if you have a great understanding of like what is wrong in real life, like your pathways are really clear. You know that glut of content that was like it was really popular, for like a like a solid like 10-15 years to just have student/teacher relationships or adult/minor relationships in a lot of American pop culture, that kind of obscured the dynamic cause. You're like. like looking back like this is actually abusive. He is saying things or doing things that are abusive to her beyond the relationship. It's like advising her to not tell people or yelling at her when she tells someone that in her friend group and or for, like a lot of these relationships like, I'm watching Buffy season two. Because Meems is watching Buffy for the first time, which is going to be great. She's gonna be really upset. The episode where Buffy tells her mom is trying to tell her mom about Angel, like, you know, like I like that. She slept with him, and that he's evil. Now, as much as you can tell your normie mom about that.

Deepa: Who doesn't know about vampires. Yeah.

Stitch: Right really hits, because I don't know how to say this. When I was 17, I was in an Angel like that. The relationship that Buffy's mom thinks Buffy's happy with Angel. He's a vampire, so he's so much older. But like think college student in their twenties. And so it's a conversation I had with my mom, which is terrible because my mom is terrible. Unlike Joyce Summers, who is just mildly incompetent.

Cameron: That’s a great way to describe her.

Stitch: And I'm like. I probably should have like I probably should feel some kind of way that Jocelyn isn't like. Let me go kill this guy. But the way that she handles the conversation it's like, actually, this is what a mom kind of what a mom should say as in like she's not condemning her kid. She's not out there like, I actually support you entirely. She's just like, “Are you okay? Like men suck,” kind of.

Deepa: Yeah.

Stitch: And then, like, that's the that's the best you can get. It's not like, “Oh, you should get married to him immediately.” They're like. It's not like, “Oh, I support you.” It's not like The Vampire Diaries, like, “Oh, yeah, he's a really shitty boyfriend. But he's hot. It's okay that he's your college professor/high school teacher,” like there's a lot going on in The Vampire Diaries. A lot and Meems loves that, too, which is really wild because Meems hates adult/student, like adult/minor student/teacher relationships. And she's seen all of The Originals, all of The Vampire Diaries, most of whatever the follow up third show was.

Deepa: There was a third show? Okay, I haven't watched any of them.

Stitch: So it's like, it's like their kids. It's like.

Deepa: Okay.

Stitch: Fan fiction-y, it's not good.

Deepa: Interesting.

Stitch: I would like to say it got 3 seasons, though. Could have had as many as 5. yeah. So like, when I'm consuming content like that, right? I'm thinking. I like to put things not just in their context, but in my context. So that, like, like, I'm watching Buffy. I'm not. Oh, this like super messed up because of XY, and Z. I'm like, okay, what is her context? What would I have been like, or what was I actually like at 7. You know, and that helps me go like oh, like I kind of see why this is like this like I don't love it. Although I ship Buffy and Angel, that is the thing I'm very into. I really ship Buffy and Angel, but I'm not into like how and jealous treats her, or how like nobody like once they get over that Angel is a vampire. They have no problem with the fact that he's a grown ass man like her support system isn't like oh, it's fucked up, isn't he, old human man? They're like, oh, that's fucked up. He's a vampire. and it's like that I don't love so I'm like, oh, come on, be better be better, and of course this is Buffy. They will never be better anybody in her life. God!

Deepa: I have not watched much of Buffy, but Cameron is a big Buffy fan, so.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Learned, learned some things over the years from Cameron.

Cameron: Love Buffy. Did not know there was Xander/Dawn content, that's news to me.

Deepa: Dawn is Buffy's younger sister?

Cameron: Yes.

Stitch: And so it's like, kind of complicated, because initially, people are like, well, he watched her grow up, and it was like, technically, no, but.

Cameron: Not really.

Deepa: Yeah. Didn't she not come like? Didn’t Buffy not know she had a sister for a really long time?

Stitch: She was created.

Deepa: Ohh.

Stitch: She's created at like. Is she a middle schooler? She's like created as like a middle schooler like 8th grade. Because Michelle Trachtenberg is just very long. So I'm like, I don't know how old you were at this point. No idea. I couldn't. I like when I get to that point like, I will probably go. God. Dawn was a baby, but the period of time between when she's introduced and when they get together is about well to 15 years. So he's in her life for a really long time. And I just hate Xander so.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Stitch: Yeah. So I wouldn't like it, even if it was. if it was as long as Xander in a relationship. I don't like it because I don't like Xander but there is the extra ick factor of how he does in the show. Come across as a big brother. I feel like he's referenced himself as a big brother like that's his role in the Scooby Gang for Dawn. And it's like you played it straight there like if it was at least perverse. Then I could be like, oh, okay, I knew what to expect. Yeah. But you played it straight. You played it straight. Now you're now you're now you're schtupping her. Oh, boy.

Deepa: I think that's. That's the thing that comes up for me a lot, because so you talk a lot like in your work around about how well, there's a parallel, I guess, but about how like people want to like sanitize villains in a way that is like normalizing them, instead of like leaning into their like villain-ness, this right? And like, I think about that a lot with like these relationships where? The problem is that they're really like normalizing it and playing it straight and. In Pretty Little Liars, Ezra, like to your point about like a lot of these relationships are abusive even beyond just the like inherent dynamic like he ends up being, he ends up, not having, so that their whole premise at the beginning of the show is that they meet in a bar before high school starts, and before he is a teacher.

Stitch: Bar?

Deepa: Bar where she's like getting a sandwich or something, but she is sitting at the bar, and so presumably he and they talk about he. He assumes she's a college student, and they talk as if she's like a college student, and he's just finished his Master’s. So he thinks this is like kosher right like that's the premise. And then they hook up in the bar bathroom, and then they go to school the next day, and he's her new English teacher. Right? That's the premise. However, we find out several seasons later that none of that is true. He knew exactly who she was. He got this position because he wants to write a true crime book about her friend Alison, and who has disappeared and is presumed murdered. And he had a relationship with Alison when Alison was like a teenager like.

Cameron: 14.

Deepa: 14 or 15. They “never had sex”. That's what we're supposed to like. Take is like that being okay. But like they had a relationship, and he supposedly didn't know her age. But so this whole time he's been actually literally stalking Aria and her friends, and seduced her to find out information for his book. So like the whole, like premise, falls apart. Right? So. And after that they normalize it. And after that they're able to like get back together, so he's like literally a villain for some time. But I don't think that's what anyone who ships it cares about. I don't think they're here for like, oh, yeah, like the per like, you know, the darkness of Ezra being this like stalker. And let's lean into that and like, talk about that as a dark theme. No, they're just like, “Oh, well, he like gets shot shortly after, like trying to help them, and so that redeems him.”

Stitch: Okay. So the there's a lot there. But I'll start. The premise. The premise as presented until that reveal is something like, I've written that, like I wrote a story where character uses fake ID, like actually literally uses older sibling’s ID to you to log into an adult. an adult dating site gets a date, sleeps with the guy next. That doesn't see him afterwards. And then he walks in as his teacher, like couple of weeks later. Right? And it's like that is like hot. I understand. Right? It's like right and like, although even mine, the guy's like, “I know you're underage. I am just disgusting. I do know you're underage. You do not actually look like the picture in your ID. I'm just disgusting,” and that's why they don't see each other after that because he's like, “Wow, I fucked up,” and then, now he's this kid's teacher. It's like, “Oh shit,” right like. But to. And so like, that relationship is clear like that's not a good thing like it's gonna be fun for the underage character, because he's like, “Oh, I'm going to manipulate this guy,” like if I write a sequel. It's going to be like all kinds of messed up more messed up. But playing it straight up until you can't play it straight anymore, and then kind of like flipping it like the thing I don't like. One of the things I don't like about fandom is that like I'll see people be like, oh, I like blank villain like we're so dark we're so edgy, and I'm like all you are doing is writing coffee shop AUs. Like it's great that you like Kylo Ren and Hux, love that for you literally. But you can't pretend that you're doing anything when you're like writing Hux as like a cat owner whose cat, you know, runs out of his apartment and starts living at Kylo Ren's apartment, and Kylo's like a professional gamer, or something like that's cute that has nothing to do with the characters, and it's not particularly dark.

Deepa: I don't love that for them, honestly. 

Stitch: So boring like I, I find these, I find a lot of villain fans incredibly boring, a lot of dark content fans incredibly boring because they justify the things that happen in ways that it's like, well, that's not interesting anymore. Right? Like, Jujutsu Kaisen. A lot a lot more people than I expected, ship the characters. Mahito, who is a major antagonist, and Nanami, who is like a like kind of support staff, and he's like a buttoned-up businessman, teacher, type. And while Mahito is like chaos embodied, and it's like really pretty. So they've assigned Mahito bottom like that's deeply at odds at how I write him in every capacity, but whatever not getting into top bottom/discourse now. But so, they'll be like, yeah.

Cameron: Not now.

Stitch: Yeah, I'm not doing it now. I will do it eventually. No, no. They'll be like “antis hate us because we're doing something dark and problematic”. And I'm like, I've read your fanfic. It's not. And problematic like you're writing like, even when they're writing Mahito as like a schoolgirl at, because, like canonically, there's like a thing where Mahito does the schoolgirl. It's like really funny. Even when they're writing Mahito is a schoolgirl, and Nanami is a teacher or like an office worker, and there's that age gap. They still make it cutesy, and I'm like, there's I mean, like fine. I can't tell you what to write, but like if I'm a fandom at large, thinks I'm a prude, and that's what fandom at large in my fandom is creating. That's that seems a little silly.

Deepa: Definitely.

Stitch: Little silly. And so it's like that, like, okay, so you like this dark content, you like the student/teacher relationship, you will defend the student/teacher relationship. But what you are writing is like, well, actually, he didn't know she was a student. Well, actually, he didn't stop. Well, actually. And it's like.

Deepa: Yeah.

Stitch: Do you actually like the thing? And I would say you do not, and that's also fine, but it's like stop defending it like you do. Let the people who actually like it like that defend it like that.

Cameron: Sorry I would like to. I was just doing a quick little Buzzfeed scan about Ezra/Aria things before this. And an article in 2021 was ranking the best boyfriends and girlfriends, or just putting them in a ranking.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: He was not the last person.

Deepa: Oh god! Come on!

Cameron: He passed Noel Kahn. And also Andrew, who is mostly fine but.

Deepa: Andrew, he's just he's also kind of boring, anyway.

Cameron: This is. I'm just gonna read it because it's very short. Yeah. “Don't even get me started on Mr. Fitz. Between dating Alison writing a book about the girls, using Aria and continuing to date her after finding out she was a student… It's just too much. He was the adult. He needed to be way more responsible. Also, Ezra had some major anger issues. But I guess after Aria was out of high school he was okay, still a bit weird that they got married, though.” What? 2021? What are we doing?

Deepa: One. Okay, so this is the other thing, right? Like, so Pretty Little Liars has been finished for 7 years. Now I think it finished. Then the original show finished in 2017 and ended with them getting married and yeah. and then there have been multiple spin offs. But the most recent spin off is by instead of by the original creators, it's by like a producer from Riverdale. And it's like now technically part of the Riverdale universe. The spin off at least not the original show, but it's called Original Sin. Well, the first season was called Pretty Little Liars: Original Sin. The second season is called Summer School. Totally different, cast, like completely different show. They're not even set in the same like town. But they doat one point go to Rosewood, which is the town, and that that the main show is set in, and they do meet a couple of the characters. We don't see any of them on screen, like none of the old actors, came back, or anything. But at the end of the first season of Original Sin, which is all about these high schoolers. In like now times. One of them who is pregnant and did not want to be pregnant is, has decided to give her baby up for adoption, and she says that she wanted to give it to a couple in Rosewood, and it turns out to be Ezra and Aria. It's like. And the whole thing is that this. this, the first season of this new show, is like very explicitly about rape and sexual assault in a way that the original show never names because they don't ever identify any of these relationships as like having these problematic power dynamics. One character is sexually harassed by an adult in a way that they acknowledge as sexual harassment. But that's all. And the only reason that they do. It is because he's engaged to her friend's mother. So like there's like a cheating element to it, too. You know, it's not just that he's an adult, and she's a teenager. So. But this new show, we thought, was like trying to move away from all of that. They're like very explicit that characters who have been raped have been raped, and that like relationships between adults and teens are not okay, and they don't have any student/teacher stuff. But then they like normalize it at the end of the season, like they're like. completely unnecessary. Did not need to include that thing is like, “Oh, yeah, we're giving this baby to this really cute couple. Their names are Ezra and Aria.:

Stitch: Which means nothing to them in-universe, because they don't know all of the backstory. But to the fans who've been with it. They're probably like, like the ones who don't like the ship are like, Oh, really, yeah. And the ones that do love it are like, Oh my god! My OTP is getting a child, and it's like.

Deepa: It's so unnecessary, because none of they're like the only major characters from the original show who were even mentioned in the sequel. There are a couple really smaller characters who show up in and not the sequel, spin off or who are mentioned in the spin off, but they're the only ones even named, who are like main characters from the original show. So that was a choice right like that was very much a choice. They could have been any of the couples to adopt their baby, that.

Stitch: I know, but they probably none of the other couples probably have, like active fandoms.

Deepa: Probably, yeah. Yeah, well. The number one, because it's because the well, I think the number one pairing in the fandom is Alison and Emily, because it's like a you know, best friends, actual canon lesbian couple that goes throughout the whole show in his endgame. So. But they but a different spin off. Divorced them off screen. So they couldn't give the baby to Emily and Alison because they're divorced. Now they end the show engaged or married, but they divorced in a spin off.

Cameron: That’s a choice.

Stitch: Terrible.

Deepa: Very silly.

Stitch: Oh. I think because this kind of reminded me. So you know, Queer as Folk had that like, I guess one season spin off sequel. I'm not entirely sure. All that recently.

Cameron: Something. Yeah.

Deepa: Really?

Stitch: It wasn't good.

Deepa: Sorry, American Queer as Folk?

Stitch: American Queer as Folk. Got a I guess. One season spin off slash sequel.

Stitch: It wasn't very good, and I think it's because. you know, like, when people are like, oh, you couldn't make this show nowadays about something that you could definitely make. You could not make Queer as Folk these days, because, like that starts with the Brian and Justin relationship. Where again, he's Justin's a high schooler. I remember seeing, like relatively recently, someone was like re-watching Queer as Folk on Twitter, like in my like orbit, and I was like watching them talk about like how like if Brian had shown up at their prom or Brian, aged man had showed up at their prom like he wouldn't have been allowed inside. Yeah, because, like, like, when I went to when I was in high school. Our Prom had a top age of 25, which is still bad. still bad, because, like I was the youngest person at the Prom, and I was 16.

Deepa: Yeah.

Stitch: So I could have brought someone that much older than me to prom like, with no problems but like right? Oh. Brian was so old, but like and okay, so you like, you know, you, you know, using the word normalization, the word that fandom really hates because they're like, how does fandom normalize? How does media normalize anything? It doesn't. And it's like, well, doesn't normalize it like, it's not making parents go. Wow, it should be okay to let our kids date teachers. It's not doing that necessarily. I don't know how many parents watch Pretty Little Liars.

Deepa: Well, people who watched Pretty Little Liars when it came out could be parents now, or soon, because it started in 2010. So it's not new, you know. 

Stitch: Oh Lord.

Deepa: Yeah, right? 

Stitch: But like so like, I don't think. I think Harry Potter has done more damage to potential parents than Pretty Little Liars will.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Stitch: Done more damage to relationships than Pretty Little Liars would. But where media, where media normalization does to people is literally just like, “Oh, I think nothing of this.” right. It's not the same as desensitization. It's just. “I think nothing of this,” right or like, “Oh, this is bad,” continues to keep consuming it right? Like you. Just it's very close to desensitization. But it's not necessarily the same thing, because desensitization often comes with this like, “Oh, well, you're a little baby if you can't handle it,” and that's not necessarily the thing that happens in fandom like guaranteed. It does happen like I have seen people be like, “Oh, well, if you can't handle it, don't read it,” and that is very callous, but that's because, like fandom is very like selfish. and I think that would happen regardless of the media, regardless of the content, because people suck sometimes, often suck actually. But I think like to the point of normalization with like age gaps. I think, like there is a point where, like. I remember that when I was a teenager. people, watching shows that had age gaps really were like, “Oh, yeah, this is fine.” My current relationship that I had with an adult before I watched this show is fine. There wasn't really a sense that people were like, I'm going to go out and get into relationships with adults. But they were like, “Oh, this further validates what I am currently doing and have been doing.”

Deepa: Yeah.

Stitch: And that was the thing I felt. But I also don't think that's really a thing anymore. Like as in, I don't think like as I get Meems, has watched all of these shows right.

Deepa: And just for folks who don't know you, Meems is one of Stitch’s nieces.

Stitch: Yes, and so she is a teenager, and she's like we don't ever talk about her age, but she is a teenager like this is deeply age appropriate for her to watch. I guess I realize I don't know how age appropriate it is, but she has been watching this stuff for a while right? And so I think, like, if an adult ever were to express interest in her, like. you know, like anywhere, actually, if anybody expresses interest in her. I think she's gonna call the cops at this point, but you know most of the youth, as I like to call them, are pretty aware of what they like and dislike. You know, like in the in the email you sent me like, you know, you talked about like the concept of “puriteens”, and, like everybody, likes to rag on teenagers and call them puriteens. And you know. I think yes, it is annoying to post about something that you like as an adult, and have, like a 15-year-old, be like, Ew. You're gross, but if you are first of all, if you're old enough to have given birth to that child and then raise them to the age they're at now where they're yelling at you. You can ignore them.

Deepa: You can always ignore them. You don't even have to be that old.

Stitch: Yeah. But like, I especially think that if you have so like, because a lot of these people are parents, too. And we're fighting with children. I'm like, hey. You don't have to do this. It's actually quite embarrassing that you're like, “Yeah, my child, who's the same age as this child, wouldn't do this,” and it's like. Stop that, because that child should turn on and be like, “Well, my mom is the same age as you and wouldn't do this.” Come on, come on! Ignore each other, but so I get it I get, though, that you're like, “Oh, I hate being yelled that I want to like clap back and be like, ‘I'm not your mom, you know you don't have, you know, the right to tell me what to like.’” But like there are several reasons, like fairly valid reasons why a lot of young adults and teenagers are like, “Oh god no” about a lot of the content we're getting in in modern and classic pop culture. And what they're seeing in fandom right? And part of why they're lashing out so hard in fandom is that who are they going to email about an adult/minor relationship in a 2020s show. you know. But they can yell at the adult currently writing fanfiction for that shit they shouldn't. But they can. And like I, I get how it happens like Meems would never do that. It's very funny, because Meems hates like all of these relationships like, like, I'll be like telling her about something, and she'll just get like really suspicious. She's like, “Hmm! And how old are these characters? Is that character that other character’s teacher or relative? Feels suspicious,” and like, even though she doesn't like it, means it's never going to harass me. She's never harassed anybody on the Internet, and that, too, owes to like what you're exposed to, who you grow up with, and the people who are essentially raising you on the Internet. right? And so I like. if you are surrounded by people who are like, just really, violently like. protective of what they like or aggressive about what they dislike. You're gonna react aggressively. Yeah. And I mean. I think a lot that's so weird to say. But I think a lot of adults don't understand that. Like these are what these are things students are living with. Right? Like they've forgotten, like teachers do take advantage of students.

Cameron: Like.

Stitch: On a very regular basis. It is, especially in small towns or religious communities, very normal to have that one teacher who or that one coach who is inappropriate. and it is accepted. And you know as much as people are like. “Oh, they're just they, these teenagers are bowing down to purity culture.” I think. Yes, that could be a thing, but I also think it's a direct response to what they're seeing in their lives. You know, like when we were in high school, I don't know if you all had that one teacher. But that one teacher in my high school was normalized right? Like you knew like that she was into the boys at the school. Yeah, she thankfully, by the way, got fired by her second month. So that was great.

Cameron: Second? 

Deepa: Second month, okay.

Cameron: That’s efficient.

Stitch: Second month. Unfortunately. Yeah, that was very, very efficient, because she had gone to other schools. And so people were like, “Oh, she has a pattern. This is the pattern.” So they yeeted her. But so it was still like people still made jokes.

Deepa: Yeah.

Stitch: About her and about her behavior. And now I don't know that teenagers would allow that, like in most places, I think it would be very much like, “Hey, I go to blank school in blank city,” on, you know, on TikTok, “Can you guys call? Here's the phone number, because there's a teacher here that's being inappropriate.” It seems like it is an attempt to like to control their world. But like. And damn if their world ain't fucked up!

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Stitch: Again, like, I know people like listen to stuff like this. And they're like, “Well, I don't have sympathy,” and it's like, well, you don't actually have to. I have enough for all of us right about now, because, like, I taught high school, you know. and teenagers go through a lot. And when I was teaching teenagers, it was a decade ago, and they were going through a lot. Yeah, it's. Even worse now. Yeah. And so like. Yes, don't let a teenager dox you. and don't eat that in silence. But I think if a teenager is going, “I don't like Scum Villain, because isn't that Binghe’s teacher –”

Deepa: It is. Yes.

Stitch: Yeah, you should think, why would somebody who has a teacher not like student/teacher relationships. And then you move on. Like Meems read like the first volume of Scum Villain and then she went, “Wait. didn't you say this is a romance?” And I was like, “Well, yes,” and she was like, “I'm good,” and she handed me back the book. Yeah. The end. She does not yell at me about it, whatever. Even if she did, I'd just be like, okay, well, you teachers, I get it. Yeah. But like, we're definitely all very different people. And some people just seem to like to fight with children on the Internet. And I, I just I just can't. 

Deepa: It’s so weird!

Stitch: They're babies.

Deepa: It’s so weird. And it's not just in fandom, right? It's like in like.

Stitch: It's everywhere.

Deepa: Across TikTok right like, regardless of what the topic is. I mean, I'm not really on TikTok anymore. But Cameron does that seem true to you for your non-fandom TikTok experience?

Cameron: That people are just trying to fight kids? Absolutely.

Deepa: Yeah.

Stitch: And it's like you're not even gonna win. They're very mean.

Cameron: There's no winning. Also, like, what do you win if you like, win a fight with a child.

Deepa: I know, I know, I know.

Stitch: Unfortunately, it's clout. Clout.

Cameron: Clout! Oh no!

Stitch: So weird. But like I've watched people like just kind of destroy their like fandom presence, because all they do is fight usually with like people under the age of 25. And it's like you're not creating fanworks. You're not enjoying the thing that you're supposedly in fandom, for all you're doing is fighting with someone who can't even run a car in the United States. why.

Deepa: Yeah.

Stitch: Like. Because, like, I know, a lot of people are like, “We have to defend them. Because, like, if they're coming for our student/teacher relationship and fiction. They're gonna come for this next or that next.” And it's like, first of all, please please fight racism in fandom. I beg of you. put that energy there. But second of all. they're teenagers. They don't have power. That's why they're fighting with you on the Internet. So like block them, report their accounts. I love reporting people's accounts. I will get a bitch suspended so fast. Report their accounts, because if they're telling you to die over like your All Might/Deku fanfic, they're telling people to die. That's the thing you get suspended for. Just report that you don't need to try to convince them that it's okay because they're not gonna think it's okay like you, you can't win. I've never. And even like I, I've never been able to make anybody go. My God, racism and fandom is bad, and that's like a logical thing. So how are you gonna get a teenager to go, “Oh, yes, a student/teacher relationship with a minor and adult is good,” while yelling at them. Just block them, block them and move on. They don't bring anything to your table. You're not bringing anything to their table. It's fine. Just block them. But it's very much like a “I can't let people be wrong” on the Internet thing, and it's like they're loud. that's all it is. Yeah, they're not wrong, because they're coming from their experience. Yeah, that's what makes that's yeah. Yeah. 

Deepa: But I think, there is this like assumption of power there, that that number one is not true because they're like young, and they don't have power. But I think I think there's also a lot of like people see some young people in doing this as leaning into conservative ideologies, which I think is sometimes true. But then, like the thing that they're fighting, is not the like actual source of the conservative ideology. It's this, like, teen on the Internet, right? And it and it goes beyond just even like the direct fights. It goes to this point where you see, like adults, be so protective of their hypothetical, you know, ship that they have, or whatever it is, it doesn't have to be a ship, but they've gotten to the point where they're like. They say teens are anti-sex, which means that anything that is in their mind “pro-sex” is the opposite of like fascist ideology, when in, or conservative ideology, when, in fact, like abusive relationships, are part of fascist ideology, not the other way around! You know what I mean? Like they get to this point where they're like. Any mention that a teen may ever be uncomfortable with an adult who is like being weird to them is like the same as “no kink at Pride”, right? And it just it's so bizarre because it's actually the other way around.

Stitch: The string chart like pointing like, “Look I connected the dots!” Like you haven't connected the dots. you have acknowledged two things that are kind of connected, but aren't actually fully connected, like, yes.

Deepa: And not inherently connected, right? Like you can't assume every dynamic like this has that connection, even if maybe some of them do a little bit.

Stitch: Right like Meems is really into Klaus Michelson on The Originals. I don't understand it, but she is. And Klaus has clear, like massively clear power imbalances across every relationship he has, whether they are romantic or platonic right. And Meems, briefly, was doing like fandom online, and she was like, “Nobody likes Klaus the way I like Klaus.” She's like, “I'm just blocking people.” She's blocking people, yeah. And somebody 10 years older than her would have been like fighting those things like, “No, I'm gonna block them because I don't need to see them,” right. And also, this reminds me sorry. The whole thing about like where people are like, “I have to defend this thing because it's sexual and inherently anti-fascist,” is like the omegaverse conversation that happened a couple of weeks ago where they're like, “Oh, calling omegaverse pro-life is wild because blah blah blah,” and it's like it's a trope where omegas get pregnant and know they're pregnant after the first time they have sex, and the idea that they could ever have an abortion is met with violent rejection like. I'm not saying that forced breeding isn't a very, very valid kink to have. but I'm what I'm saying is like. Isn't it a little weird that this is the trope, that this is recurrent across everybody's stuff, that abortions are so bad and icky, and if you are pregnant, you should not have an abortion as an omega like that's a thing.

Cameron: How is that not pro-life??

Stitch: Because the women and queers writing it are progressive.

Cameron: Oh, sure sure sure, we're oppressing men, and that makes it okay.

Stitch: Yes! I got a comment because, I made a TikTok talking about that because we did the omegaverse episode on my, on our podcast and my friend, Rogue and I were talking about it for the podcast and someone replied with like, “Oh, I'm sorry you didn't know that the breeding kink world had breeding in it.” And it's like, well, first of all, a breeding kink does not imply that it is gonna be successful. That's not what a breeding kink is! 

Deepa: It’s just about the action! Yeah.

Stitch: Right, it's not. And it was like a lot. And like my first response to them was just like 5 min of like profanity. And so I deleted that, and I like block them. But it was like. I love omegaverse. and I love dark omegaverse. I absolutely have no problem with the fact that you're writing a character go like, “Yes, I had sex for the first time. I immediately know I'm pregnant,” like, I mean, beyond the biology of it all, I think it's silly. My problem is that almost like I would say, 90 percent of the fandom works around omegaverse that have any kind of long-term thing are like, I know I'm pregnant immediately. This is my baby. Even in cases of sexual violence like it's. It sounds like pro-life shit, and you can't even say that without people going. Oh, I'm sorry you don't understand, and it's like I do understand. I've also written it except not again with the instant pregnancy thing weird. But I've written this stuff, and so I know that it's not coming from a place of, I think people should not be able to have abortions. It's coming from. I am very horny about this. It's great, but inadvertently replicating something that millions of people deal with every day is still replicating it. And so it's just like, I think, like one of the biggest problems in fandom is that people don't understand like when somebody says, “I don't like how blank is blank,” that is not a call to action. It's not even if they even immediately after that, say, “I wish I could stop blank from being blank,” they don't have the power to change it. They have no power. It's not a call to action. It's just a complaint. People are allowed to complain in fandom right unless they're tagging an author of an omegaverse work and going, “Why is your work pro-life?” It's fine to just say things. Yeah, it's fine to say, “I don't like student/teacher relationships.” It is very fine for somebody who is still in high school to say, “I don't like student/teacher relationships,” because you don't know what these kids have been through. You don't know anybody on the Internet has been through. Even if they're telling you 99% of it, there's still about 1%. It's probably horrifying. And so I don't know, like, I just wish people were nicer about this stuff. Because, like. if I'm like, if I were live tweeting buffy. And I'm like, “Yeah, I really love Buffy and Angel,” right? Or God forbid Wesley and Cordelia, which I actually don't like. That's because I hate Wesley. he's so shit, anyway. But if I was saying that somebody goes like, “Oh, Stitch! Well, aren't those men adults? Why are you like positively tweeting about this?” like I'm gonna be like, “oh, I'm just watching Buffy like, do you need me to tag it for you? I'm not going to stop talking about the ship, or whatever. But do you need me to tag it for you? Is there something I can do to make sure you don't see it?” I'm not going to be upset, that somebody is upset by an upsetting thing. You know. Like, if you especially in a case where it's tweets, you don't really have a good morning for tweets like I can put tw adult/minor as much as I want. It won't necessarily get caught. I don't know what people have muted. you know. It's different with fan fiction, you know, like by the time you've yelled at somebody for their fan fiction. Because you're like, “Why would you write age gap omegaverse?” Well, you went past the tags that said underage and omega. That is on you at this point.

Deepa: Like that was a just like, for people who don't like aren't familiar with like fandom history around that like that was a huge fight right like that was a huge fucking fight, and people act like content warnings and tags are have always been around, but that was like so much pushback when like 10 like I don't know. 15 years ago, right like not that.

Stitch: 2009. Yeah, 2009. I think. Not that long.

Deepa: People were like, “Yeah, no, we should never have,” you know, “content warnings are spoilers,” like.

Stitch: What I've seen because booktok. A lot of booktok writers are from fandom like the dark romance girlies they're putting. They put their trigger warnings in the front of the book and on their websites, and so I don't know what book it is, but it has like in a straight centered column 3 pages of trigger warnings. Okay? And like a lot happens on those pages. I think I took the book out. I'll find it. I'll read it. I'll tell you all if it was good. But the reason I saw was because somebody screenshot it and put it on Instagram to mock it. But then you had people on Tumblr being on Twitter, being like, “Oh, this is why you shouldn't put warnings,” and it was like.

Cameron: Shouldn't put warnings?

Stitch: Right, because people will make fun of you.

Deepa: Are they like cringy or…

Stitch: Too many.

Cameron: Too many. Okay. Too many.

Stitch: Too many, because people will be unhappy with you. And it's like, you know you should never let a few people ruin your experience. I know. I'm saying that. And I'm like currently not on Twitter, because of a few people.

Deepa: That's not why you're not on Twitter. I'm sorry. People are evil to you. So.

Stitch: People are evil to me. But like functionally, like the percentage of people being evil to me versus the percentage people who are on Twitter the math.

Deepa: It's about who you interact with. It's about who it's about who like, yeah. But anyway. But yeah.

Stitch: Yeah. So these people are like, “Oh, yeah, like you should not do this because, like you have all these trigger warnings, people are gonna like yell at you like they're not gonna be pleased.” And it's like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, it's not for them. I actually just wish a lot of people understood when something wasn't for them. I'll see people complaining about like the weirdass anime series that come out every couple of seasons, and they'll be titled. They will literally be titled with, like “My Little brother is So Sexy,” that that'll be the title of the anime. Someone will read will go into it, and they're like, “Oh my god! I can't believe I you know, I can't believe the anime called, I can't believe, ‘My Little Brother is So Sexy’ has incest and underage in it,” and it's like it is in the title. Like. What are you expecting? But I also realize a lot of people don't read titles. They don't read summaries, they don't read blurbs, they don't read reviews, and so they go into everything for the first time, like just unprepared.

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: So I guess I could have a little bit of like grace for people not being good at reading tags, or whatever. But when it's a title? I don't know.

Stitch: The titles are really funny. Cause like. there's like. Okay, there's not even just the title. So like for a lot of anime series, you see, like the picture, for the for the release is like there's one called The Essential Quintuplets. And it's like, clearly, this is a harem anime, where he is going to be with all of the sisters.

Deepa: Okay.

Stitch: And you'll still have people be like, well, “Oh my god, I don't understand. Like what's going on here. Why are there?” And it's like do you have eyes? Because they're all hanging over him. Yeah, or like Black Butler, I think Black Butler is like the go to. Are you sure you're looking at the screen because I was telling my friend this yesterday that I was watching people be like, “Oh my god! I can't believe the Black Butler anime is so gross and sexualizes Cl”, and it's like. first of all, all, that stuff's in the manga. Second of all. Before Yana Toboso wrote Black Butler. She was doing. Other stuff involving underage characters, like this is not new. It's not new, like. Two seconds would tell you that if you don't like that content, you should just not be reading Black Butler. Okay. she's a pervert. She's been a pervert for over 20 years. Big pervert. And it's just like fandom's really big on like, “Oh my god, there's no media literacy,” and it's all aimed at children. And I'm like none of you have media literacy. You're all very bad at this. You're all very bad at this. It's just that the youth are bad at media literacy in ways that offend you. whereas you're all bad at media literacy in ways that offend me. That's my problem. Get good.

Deepa: Well, since I know you have another podcast recording to go to for your own, podcast that you co-host. So, I, unless Cameron is there anything else that.

Cameron: Yeah, I have a burning question, actually. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing like, thank you so much. I just the title of this podcast is, Don't Forget the Chickpeas, and Deepa might have informed me that you may have forgotten the chickpeas previously in your life. Is this true?

Stitch: That is true. I have actually never eaten chickpeas ever, not in anything. I don't know how it happened. like I looked at the texture of hummus, and I was like, No, for this. And then, like the is, is chickpeas are like legume.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Stitch: Okay. So like I'm into, I'm into lentils. So like.

Deepa: Gotcha.

Stitch: Small and crispy. and I like them. So that's my, that's my bean, like object. I'm sorry.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: I was just shocked.

Stitch: Honestly, my diet is probably just super weird, like I eat a lot of mackerel. I'm like deeply obsessed with mackerel like my current autistic hyper fixation meal is mackerels and mashed potato.

Deepa: Interesting. You said once on one of your podcast episodes, that you're obsessed with cottage cheese, even though you hate it.

Stitch: Oh, yeah, texture is super upsetting. It makes me cry. But I blend it. I blend it and I think I can make my. I can ultimately make myself eat anything like I just have not bought chickpeas to try and cook them, and I know I don't like comments, but I have not bought chickpeas. Yeah, you know, to try and cook them, but, like I used to hate yogurt like my dad would watch me eat yogurt like I would cry, and this is like when I was like 19. So I was not like actually a small child, so I'd be eating yogurt and crying, and he'd be like, “What are you doing?”

Stitch: And I'm like, “Eating yogurt I need, I need calcium.” He's like, “Drink milk,” and I was like, “No, I want to eat yogurt,” and he would just be very like confused at me, because, like I'm sitting there crying while eating yogurt like there was a brand of yogurt in the Virgin Islands by way of Puerto Rico called my yogurt, and I would eat their peach flavor only. And I was like I have to eat yogurt, even though it upsets me. But now I eat yogurt. It has to be like the Chobani flip where you have the granola.

Deepa: Okay.

Stitch: Because otherwise straight up yogurt upsets, me.

Deepa: Oh my god. Stitch, you should meet my parents!

Cameron: They fucking love yogurt more than like a lot of things. I feel like.

Deepa: This is actually like legitimately, a very South Indian thing. South Indians really love yogurt and eat yogurt with a lot of things, but my parents do it sometimes in ways that Cameron makes fun of.

Cameron: It was just one instance of putting yogurt on like when you get ramen delivered, they have the broth, and then you have the like noodles and other things, and Deepa's mom, like put yogurt on the noodles and other things.

Stitch: Was it like Greek yogurt?

Deepa: It was Greek yogurt. Yeah, it was. It was.

Stitch: So that actually make sense because like cheese on ramen. It's like the same. I don't know if that's what the intent was, but it was just really funny.

Deepa: It was just really funny because we ordered ramen take out, and my mom doesn't like ramen. So I was like, “Are you sure you want this?” And she was like, “Yeah, I'll eat it.” And then she like completely changed the dish. She didn't even touch the broth at all.

Stitch: Oh, this was not a broth situation?

Deepa: It was not!

Cameron: Just naked plain noodles. 

Deepa: With yogurt. Maybe she added the veggies that came with it, or whatever, and definitely added, like hot sauce or Indian pickle, or something. But like. No, she just changed the dish.

Cameron: It was wild.

Deepa: So now every time Cameron's over and they have something with yogurt, they're like, “Cameron, is this okay?”

Cameron: And I’m like, “I don’t care! It’s just this one instance!”

Stitch: Oh noooo.

Deepa: And yeah, when I say South Indians are obsessed with yogurt, it’s plain yogurt or Greek yogurt. It's not like flavored yogurt, and it's like a savory. It's usually a savory thing. You mix it with rice, you mix, you could put it in anything right like. or even if you look at like a lot of Indian recipes that do like marinades or sauces that have yogurt in them. Right? So things like that.

Stitch: I do so love a yogurt marinade.

Cameron: Yeah.

Stitch: Oh my god. Oh man. Although that does remind me like my mom! When I lived with her, her whole thing would be like, “Oh, can you order me some of whatever you're ordering?” And then she would complain the entire time. And I'm like, “Mom. you don't like spicy food. Why would you want me to order you Korean barbecue? You also don't eat pork, so why would you want me to get you Korean barbecue?” And she's like, “Just get me chicken, and I'm like, “I'm getting pork. Mom.” Like. I guess I miss my mom. She's like currently fine. I'm just avoiding her. She doesn't know about the job thing, so we're avoiding her. We're very much avoiding her until I get another job, and then I will not tell her I lost this job. I’ll be like, “Oh, I moved to a different job.” But she’s so funny. What a weirdo. My dad was the greatest he would. My dad was diabetic. but my dad loves to be included, loved to be included, so he would eat anything. I made him Korean army stew like that was one of the last things I cooked for him. I don't know how to make Korean army stew. So this is this little old man kind of like trying to figure out how to eat this like super spicy mishmash of different Korean and American things, and it was just very cute. But, my dad, that's the one thing my dad would eat anything. I cook no complaints. My mom would be like, “Are you sure this is what you want me to eat?” I'm like, “Well, unless you're cooking.” Yeah. My mom basically stopped cooking when I was in high school. She was like, “I've cooked enough.” And I was like, “That's because you took 18 years between having your children. So that's not on me.” What's also messed up is, I didn't learn how to cook until I was like 23. So between high school, and like finishing my first round of college, I ate a lot of takeout, or I ate at my sister's or eggs. Lots of eggs.

Cameron: Eggs!

Deepa: Well. You don't have to try hummus, but if you ever want a chickpea recipe to try out chickpeas, we have so many.

Stitch: Okay, the next time I do grocery shopping. So I have a Costco card. Now. Thank you. It was my last big bitch purchase. Before losing my job I went. I'm gonna get this card. I'm gonna get it right now and then, like the next day I got fired. It’s fine. I was bad at my job. I'm I was bad at my job because I did not do what they wanted. I am a great writer.

Deepa: You are.

Stitch: so next time I go I'll put it. I'll put chickpeas on my list. Like that like. I will ask for a recipe, and then I'll put chickpeas on my list. Because what happened with the lentils was the first time I bought lentils. I got the lentils, and then I asked for recipes. and I was like. I don't have any of this shit. Yeah, so I never did it. I ended up making taco meat. which is pretty good. 

Deepa: I've done that!

Deepa: Yeah, yeah.

Stitch: I would do that again, actually.

Cameron: Well, thank you!

Deepa: This was so fun!

Stitch: Thank you for having me. It was very fun. I love it. I hope I answered all of your questions. Very well. Thank you for letting me chat, and also bring up Meems. Who is my favorite person to bring up ever. she's fascinating. I don't understand her, but I am obsessed with her. She feels the same way.

Deepa: And for our listeners. We'll link to all of Stitch's stuff in the show notes, and definitely recommend their podcast that they cohost, Pages and Prejudice, which.

Cameron: it's so good.

Deepa: I. I don't read original romance and Cameron's not in fandom, but both of us really love. This podcast. Despite like those being the main two topics.

Cameron: It bridges both. Yeah, it's so good. Your analysis.

Deepa: You’re both so funny and smart.

Cameron: Yeah.

Stitch: Thank you so much. That means a lot to me. And I know Adrie is gonna love to hear it. I'm gonna make her listen to this episode. Yes, because, like, we have so much fun with our podcast and planning it. And we are trying to kind of blend that like cause, I'm more fannish than like we're both in fandom. But like I'm actively like, I need to know what fans are doing at every given point, whereas Adrie does read more like traditionally traditional and indie romance than I do like. I read a lot of like webtoons and manga while she's reading actual romance novels. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm on like, chapter 262 of The S Classes That I Raised. Yeah, which I am, I am actually. And so it's just really fun. And it's really cool to hear like, “Oh, yeah, no, you're actually doing the thing. You're actually bridging the gap.” You know you're it's accessible. That's pretty cool. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.

Cameron: Yeah, that's awesome.

Deepa: Okay, well, we can't wait to hear today's episode after you recorded. 

Cameron: And after your break.

Stitch: Yes, we will return. We may be returned by the time this episode goes live, depending on how long.

Cameron: Yeah, Deepa’s computer…

Deepa: Yeah, I’m having computer issues. It's fine. 

Stitch: Yeah, I think our will return sometime in October, whereas I will be bullying Adrie to doing a month of things I really want to do, because it is birth month, October, so I will be super obnoxious.

Cameron: Are you a Scorpio or a Libra?

Stitch: I am Peak Scorpio actually.

Cameron: Good. Okay. I'm also a Scorpio, the best.

Deepa: I could have connected this Stitch because I know your birthday, but I am not. I should have mentioned from the beginning that you're both Scorpio.

Stitch: I am. Like the ultimate Scorpio. Yes, it's really great, because, like, I'm functionally like the least threatening person anyone will ever meet like nobody's actually afraid of me if they've met me. Zero people are. It's only like weenies on the Internet. And it's like. I'm not actually afraid of me. You're just an asshole. But like I'm also horrifying period, deeply horrifying. It's great! I love it. I love it. I love being deeply on brand. I was telling. I told my friend yesterday I went to see Alien. I know that we keep talking. Don't worry. I have time. Okay.

Deepa: Oh no we're fine!

Stitch: No worries, no worries, literally no worries. We were so before we went to see Alien: Romulus, my friend Robert, who I've known since 2012, when we met on the bus between campuses on college, because he was reading Aquaman, and I was like, “You fucking nerd.” And I was like that's an inside thought that accidentally made it outside. And so we became friends. And so we go to a comic book store. And I was like, like, we're like making fun of Harry Potter, as people do, and I was like, “I will tell you one like terribly on brand thing about me.” And he was like, “Oh, God,” which is the correct response to have. And I'm like, “Yeah. So like, when I was like a teenager like, not a teenager like, I was like a child that was like around the second Harry Potter movie. I was like I wrote self, insert fan fiction with me and Lucius Malfoy.” And he's like, “Oh god! You're sick!” And then he went, “But everything about you now like makes sense.” I was like, “Oh, yeah, thank you for understanding. Thank you for understanding.” So I did have until like last year, because I threw it away. I had a notebook with a little Harry Potter notebook, with my little fan fiction with like me and my obviously underage self-insert because I was like 11, writing like a 14-year-old me seducing Lucius Malfoy. I did write that.

Cameron: Incredible.

Stitch: So I have always been incredibly myself, incredibly on brand. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This is really fun. Oh my god, and I love getting the chance to share my cursed lore. It's so curse. Okay, I will say bye, because I also, in addition to everything else I have to do today, I do actually have to do my part time job, because I like love money also, yeah, needed to live. But okay. Thank you again.

Cameron: Thank you!

Deepa: This was so fun! Bye!

Stitch: Bye!

Deepa: That was so fun.

Cameron: That was great. Okay, transition to episodes. 

Deepa: Actually talk about Pretty Little Liars.

Cameron: Do you think we have to talk more about Ezra and Aria?

Deepa: I think we do, because things happened in this episode!

Cameron: Ugh!

Deepa: I’m sorry!

Cameron: Ugh. Okay, okay.

Deepa: We didn’t actually get into this episode, I’m sorry.

Cameron: Okayyyy.

Deepa: We can start with our Ezra bucket.

Cameron: Let's please let's please get that over with. I do. I usually try to re-watch at least one episode. And I did not cause I was like, I can't watch this shit again.

Deepa: Oh, that's fair. That's fair. Yeah, yeah, no, it's really bad. It's that's worse than I remembered in some ways. Like. I mean. First, there's a like interaction with Mike and Aria on the street. And I was like, I hate every part of this, and he's so like Mike being there just like heightened because we're so used to seeing Ezra and Aria together. But Mike, being there just like, heightened the like creepiness and the age difference and everything. Because, like Mike, looks like a kid in a way that Aria doesn't as much.

Cameron: Right cause. 

Deepa: She's not. Aria is but Lucy Hale is not.

Cameron: I wonder if Cody. What's his name? Was an actual child.

Deepa: He might have been an actual teen.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, we could look it up. But Lucy Hale was, you know, an adult? But yeah, it was just excruciating. And like. And there's so many points, cause I think. I forget the specificity specificities of it. But I know in the books it's different. They don't continue dating. They don't get married right?

Deepa: Right, yeah.

Cameron: And there are moments where this could take that turn, right? Where we could shut it down, where we could like take a different path.

Deepa: Totally, and I don't know. I don't know that the book, like shuts it down for that reason, but certainly, like Aria, has more love interests, and I don't think she ends up with Ezra. I think she like dates Noel Kahn for real for a while, like Noel Kahn is a different character, anyway. And maybe she dates Jason for real a while, too. But yeah, yeah, like, you said, like, this is very much a choice to like have as or be this like, not only like he's like the most consistent love interest throughout the entire thing. I don't think he ever leaves the show for any period of time.

Cameron: Cool.

Deepa: they do break up several times, but they're still always in contact when they're broken up. I feel like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like, I guess, Toby… No, Toby, like Ezra's there from episode number one as a love interest and as a I'm pretty sure he's in every episode of the show.

Cameron: Oh, that's right. He's there immediately.

Deepa: He's there immediately. Yeah, that is not true, for any other love interest. Because the other love interest that shows up in the first episode is Maya, but she doesn't stay for that long. So.

Cameron: No! They murder her.

Deepa: They fucking murder her, and they let Ezra stay.

Cameron: Oh my god, yeah, yeah.

Deepa: It's ridiculous. Yeah, sorry. Were you saying you didn't rewatch the episode at all, or you just didn't like re-rewatch it?

Cameron: Re-rewatch. I usually watch them together, and then I'll try to rewatch one right before.

Deepa: Gotcha.

Cameron: If there's a you know. No, I do re-watch. I wouldn’t remember anything.

Deepa: I was just wondering because sometimes I skip through scenes right so like, or like fast forward. But like, that's when I usually remember what's happening in that scene. But yeah, the scene where they talked to the Montgomery's. It's just like it's again. I mean, I guess this is more about the Montgomery's than about Ezra and Aria. But like it's again, that whole thing of like they're having. Well, okay, they're having the appropriate reaction of shock and horror. I think, like to what Stitch was saying and comparing with Buffy. They're not having a good reaction in terms of helping Aria understand why they're upset other than like this is, this is wrong, you know. Like. I don't think they do a very good job of making it clear that she's being harmed, and that they're scared for her and protective. You know.

Cameron: Because. I think they do like two very interesting and troubling things. When Ella is like, “We raised her to be independent and open-minded.” Yeah.

Deepa: Yup, which you flagged right in the in our first season where you were you were mentioning like, “Is this like? Is the whole like the Montgomery's are more permissive things supposed to connect to Aria and Ezra?” And you were right. I didn't remember that they did it explicitly, but they did.

Cameron: And I just don't think that's the inevitable progression of that. What?

Deepa: No! I think my parents raised me to be independent and open-minded, and no that never I never! That never happened like, and if it had happened, it would have still been abuse. It wouldn't have been because I was independent and open minded, right.

Cameron: A teenager, what? And also when Byron goes to Ezra's apartment and says, “You were there for her in a way that we couldn't be.”

Deepa: Yeah, instead of highlighting that her having a traumatic year means she was vulnerable!

Cameron: Right!

Deepa: To abuse.

Cameron: What?

Deepa: That conversation was fucking wild because Byron was way more like conciliatory at first than I imagined or remembered. And I do think it's because he's feeling guilt about himself. But like that doesn't mean you should excuse it with Ezra because it like. Number one. You can. You can be. You can have fucked up and still be right about someone else fucking up the same way, you know, like that. That's that can be true. And number two. He's right. It didn't involve a minor like.

Cameron: It didn’t!

Deepa: Yes, and I will point out they he called Aria a minor. There's no like age of consent discourse here right now, like I think there will be later. But right now, he's calling her a minor. And that's like, it's both the teacher and the minor thing. Not just one.

Cameron: Yep.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, when he yeah, when he said that, that I mean, I do think that. So the two reactions to Aria that I was really like disturbed by from Ella and Byron, were Byron policing her outfit.

Cameron: Ew, I hated that.

Deepa: Fucking gross, but, like you, expect that shit from Byron.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: But Ella being mad that Aria lied about it. which is kind of wild because she like wasn't mad when Aria lied about a thing that actually like is more directly impacting Ella, which was her husband cheating on her with his student. She understood the position Aria was in, and the vulnerability Aria had there, and the like pressure, right? But she's not. She doesn't have that same understanding now, even though I think she sees Aria as like someone who is being harmed right. But she I don't know. She I was. I thought that was shitty, and I also think it's very realistic. I know. I've been saying that a lot about Ella lately, like I do think parents react like that. A lot of parents.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But then the third thing was isolating her from her friends again.

Cameron: I hate like. Why. why? Why do we always go there?

Deepa: What did they have to do with this? Like? Yes, they're like, weirdly supportive of the relationship. But that wouldn't matter. If they weren't supportive of the relationship, Aria would still be in it, because she's a teenager and she's being abused by an adult right like. and like by isolating her from that like that scene where she calls Ezra at the end, actually was so sad. Because I'm like you are our fucking alone, and like.

Cameron: 1000%.

Deepa: I do think you shouldn't. I do think Ezra shouldn't be able to talk to you. But I get how there's this narrative that Byron is like you were there for her. Because, yeah, if you're gonna cut her from other people, then of course, she's gonna feel like the only person who is there from her is him. You know what I mean.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah, like.

Deepa: Isolation is the opposite of what she needs to like. Get away from him.

Cameron: Cause. Isolation is a form of it's like part of abusive dynamics, right? Like, that's like part of like the control. And the yeah.

Deepa: This is so weird it doesn't make any sense, either. I don't like. I get being grounded, but not seeing your friends. Your friends could come over.

Cameron: Yeah. And you could all watch a silly movie in the living room.

Deepa: You could go to a movie with your friends that your parents had sanctioned or had not won't sanction, but will sanction when it's Holden, question mark?

Cameron: Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. Why are they? Yeah.

Deepa: Oh, Holden. Yeah. Yeah. We did get Ezra being punched in the face. Thank you, Mike.

Cameron: Thank god. and just immediate blood.

Deepa: Immediately. he looks. He looked so betrayed after Mike punched him, and then Aria said he should go, and I was just like fuck you so much. What did you? What the fuck did you expect?

Cameron: He just there, I just like wrote like you so many times like “Gross!” you like it was just like that, was my note, and like a sad face. I was just like.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: He like dressed up to do the talk to her parents. And like the Jackie shit, he’s so weird about it.

Deepa: So weird about it. Yeah, yeah, this. Okay. This episode did emphasize a little for me that like. while I think a lot of what Jackie's criticized for. I don't think it's valid. There is still this dynamic of like she does still fall into the category of adults having inappropriate power dynamics with teenagers. Yes, when she's like threatening Aria.

Cameron: Showing up to her parents’ home. Yeah.

Deepa: So that is fucked up. And I and I don't get why she wants Ezra like her whole thing is she's trying to save him from this.

Cameron: Yeah. For her?

Deepa: I guess.

Cameron: So she can date this man?

Deepa: But maybe also for him, which is honestly even worse than. he doesn't deserve to be like.

Cameron: No, save from the consequences of his actions. No, yeah, no, absolutely not. Not that there are any. But.

Deepa: Not that there are any.

Cameron: Okay, is there anything else we need to say about that.

Deepa: Not about Ezra, but about Aria, about that, about their A plan and Aria deciding to go through with this on the same night. I was just like Aria. This is so. You like I am both incredibly sympathetic to the like fact that you were a victim in this, and like you had some control over when you did this, and. It did not have to be tonight.

Cameron: Yes, you just.

Deepa: Like he was so like insistent I don't know, but like so, you know.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It's just it's like, all of the things like all the complications, how we feel about our yeah, we're like both. Really. Yeah, she's not like, completely responsible for this, but also it like makes her a really bad friend.

Cameron: Yeah. yeah, like, Emily is getting like fucking like strangled.

Deepa: Yeah. And you like, show up late. And like. granted, I don't. I can't tell if it's because they all showed up late that they don't like, do it well, or, if they just like. never had a good plan for what they were actually going to do to catch A but this. like we're not.

Cameron: I don't think them arriving on time would have helped that situation, honestly, like it made it made Emily more safe, but I don't think they would have caught anyone.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Well, even Emily's whole like little speech before she opens the box. I was like, you couldn't get any closer before you open up box and like, reveal your hand like? you did a great job of getting A here. Why was the implementation of this so bad after that?

Cameron: True, like the pre, the buildup was great fake, fighting.

Deepa: It was very questionable acting, but it worked.

Cameron: That shit is so funny like. “Oh, no, don't take the box from Jason.”

Deepa: Right outside the swim meet, where, like everyone is, even people who weren't watching the swim meet. I thought that the first scene acting was better because Emily and Spencer did really look like they were fighting like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: They didn't. It didn't look like fake fighting. But the second scene was so silly. Even Aria like Aria, gives this like annoyed look at Emily, and I'm like, that's not how Aria looks, and she's annoyed. Usually like you're overdoing this, and you are the best actor as a character. Also. The greenhouse, I guess, is really far away, because Emily was driving for a while, but they keep meeting. They've been meeting up there in the middle of the night.

Cameron: Yeah, I got. I thought they walked beforehand.

Deepa: I don’t think they all even have cars, right?

Cameron: Yeah. Spencer and Emily do.

Deepa: Spencer and Emily do. I don't think we ever see Aria driving.

Deepa: Yeah, I don't know.

Cameron: Locations, time.

Deepa: Places, places, yeah.

Cameron: Like geography…kind of a blur.

Deepa: True, true. Speaking of another adult abusing a teenager: Garrett! 

Cameron: Oh my god, Garrett, you're a fucking mess.

Deepa: He's a mess. He he's so like whiny like that scene with Toby was so weird, cause he's like he's whining to Toby about Toby's abuser first of all.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: And I'm sure he knows that.

Cameron: I'm sure he knows that.

Deepa: Right, and but also, he’s just like peak Paolo when he's whining?

Cameron: Oh my god! He is!

Deepa: It's like a like pathetic.

Cameron: He's just like, “Oh, she took someone else to Boston for the surgery.”

Deepa: Also. Why aren’t her parents taking her to Boston for the surgery?

Cameron: Where are their parents?

Deepa: I don't actually know if we ever see either of their parents. We see we might see Toby's mom in flashbacks, but I don't know if we ever see her, he'd see his dad.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I don't even remember. If we see Toby's mom, we'll find out in a few seasons. But yeah, so whiny and like. like, okay, on the one hand. I'm like Jenna using him for her own purposes. It's like great. I love that. Yeah. On the other hand, it does play again into this narrative, that Garrett's not the one with the power here.

Cameron: For sure.

Cameron: Jenna's this teenage disabled girl who's wielding power over everyone.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: In this community.

Deepa: Lying and.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: yeah, because what is it? What is it? You know Garrett's talking about how like strong she is, and how much she's had. Actually, he doesn't even say how strong she is. He's like what she's had to fucking deal with right.

Cameron: And.

Deepa: Toby's like. What is it?” I never questioned her strength. Just wait the way she uses it.” And again, like in that context, to Toby that makes sense, because she abused him.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: But overall, it's like.

Cameron: I'm just like what? Yeah. he's just like, “I'm in love with her.” Okay, Garrett.

Deepa: Also, when Toby, like sort of like, looks threateningly at Garrett at one point when he's doing cop stuff. I just thought in my head that, like Garrett's doing what Toby later does. like, it seems like from an episode like an episode or two ago, when he said, like, “I can't wait to get on this uniform,” it seems like he became a cop to like help Jenna. And that's exactly what Toby's gonna do later. Why?

Cameron: But why do we keep doing that? To come up with another idea? I don't know.

Deepa: It doesn't even work.

Cameron: It doesn’t work. Garrett ends up dead.

Deepa: Toby doesn't do anything to stop A ever, and then he has a wife who ends up dead. So.

Cameron: Yikes.

Deepa: God.

Cameron: Fucking Garrett.

Deepa: Fucking Garrett. Another question I have is so they think Jenna and Garrett are A, maybe at least they go into the greenhouse, encounter with that assumption. So why does Emily respond to A's text by circling yes, on the chalkboard, which is a great move in general.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It’s very clever, but if she thinks it's Jenna or Garrett, Jenna's not even in that class. And Garrett's not, you know. like that works because Mona's in that class.

Cameron: I think it's just like they are. The surveillance.

Deepa: The surveillance is everything. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It just seemed to me like an acknowledgement that they think that A is in that class. And then I was like, Wait, no, that's not true, like, because we have a lot of other suspicious people like Noel Kahn and stuff in that class. But I don't think that class yes, of the chalkboard doesn't work so for Jenna, but I don't even know if she is.

Cameron: I don't know. Is Lucas in that class?

Deepa: I don't remember, but Lucas. Lucas!

Cameron: Lucas is being so creepy on that boat.

Deepa: Okay, on the phone for the which I completely forgot about the like crisis hotline plus.

Cameron: Me too!

Deepa: On the phone. He's being very dramatic, but in a way that I think makes sense for Lucas. I think Lucas can be dramatic sometimes.

Cameron: Spinning out about something.

Deepa: He's spinning out about something. But on the boat he's like actively creepy, and it doesn't actually make sense.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Like, I think, even if he were super stressed about this thing, he has to tell Hanna. He would realize that she is scared and not keep doing that right, and he's like becomes more aggressive when. He realizes, or when she tries to express, that she's scared right?

Cameron: Yeah. It doesn't make sense for Lucas at all. Yeah.

Deepa: No, it doesn't. yeah, yeah, that first scene with Caleb is so funny with where? Because like at this point, we don't know about the gambling. So we think he's being weird. like, I think, in that scene, we don't think he's being weird for A reasons yet, because we haven't heard him on the phone. So we think he’s just in love with Hanna?

Cameron: Or Caleb.

Deepa: Or Caleb!

Cameron: Cause he it just there's all these like looks where like yes, he is feeling like bad and remorseful, but he's also just like I don't know. Someone said something about Caleb, and he's like, “What's not to like?” Like. What are you doing? It was just cracking me up.

Deepa: Lucas. I didn't remember that this all escalates so quickly, though, like we see Lucas, we get a glimpse of Lucas's like poker website or whatever. No, I think it's like a sports betting website or whatever we see a glimpse of that on his computer in the first episode.

Cameron: Oh, that's what he was like. Oh.

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. And then in 15 he like the boat happens. And then I think he's gone for several episodes, and they think he could be dead. But then, at some point they're like, no, he's with cousins, I don't know. but he definitely like runs away.

Cameron: Yeah, just so contrived. Like I, I generally don't think surprise parties without telling the person that something is happening are good ideas. like is this something Caleb is even interested in, like.

Deepa: Yeah. Caleb doesn't have like a huge crowd of friends. So like is he gonna have fun at this party. That's mostly just people. He doesn't know that well, great?

Cameron: Little bit. Yeah.

Deepa: I loved Emily telling Spencer that Hanna and Caleb have been to the lake house before. It was very funny. That was so cute when she was like “Oh, you didn't know that?”

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: “That was my Nana's couch.”

Cameron: My Nana’s couch. Oh, lake house! We got a like How to Get Away with Murder wallpaper reveal.

Deepa: You're so right. Oh my gosh, so true! Yes, yes, listeners, if you haven't seen How to Get Away with Murder.

Cameron: Watch it.

Deepa: Just watch it, number one. Number two, we're gonna spoil you for it.

Cameron: Sorry.

Deepa: Probably if you were like around in 20- whatever year it came out, you probably would have heard the line, anyway. But the wallpaper is the setup for our favorite line from that show. Which is, “Why is your penis on a dead girl's phone?” And it's because the dick pic that Annalise's husband sent to the student he was fucking is from their bathroom, and she recognized or I guess Wes recognized, the wallpaper. Right?

Cameron: No, she recognizes it. 

Deepa: She recognizes the dick. I guess I don't. No, no, you might be right, I guess. I yeah, that's probably not the order it happens in.

Cameron: But this is less dramatic because we know A is everywhere all the time. So.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, I guess Spencer doesn't know that. But you know, it's clever, Mona, just like, use all locations to creep them out more like it's almost like she planned for them to see the picture, you know, like they see it.

Cameron: It is. in Spencer's nana's lake House, or Spencer's lake house. Something? Yeah.

Deepa: I did love also that the photo was of dolls.

Cameron: Oh, so good! Those were different dolls than the dolls, or were they the same dolls?

Deepa: I didn't take a good look.

Cameron: Me either. So. great.

Deepa: We'll take that.

Cameron: I'm glad we got a bunch of Caleb.

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: Yeah, it was always good.

Deepa: Yes, and him doing tech stuff. And I like him like checking with Hanna about whether this is okay with her, you know, even though he doesn't understand why it might not be okay with her.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: Understand that she's… I do wish she just like told him like, “I can't tell you more about this, because you've had bad run ins with law enforcement in the past, and I don't. I think it's actually better for you if you don't know,” and like maybe that wouldn't stop him from wanting to know, but it feels like she just kind of like brushed over it as like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: “No, it's not important. That's why I'm not telling you,” right? That’s not true. It's important. I don't think it's like tension that lasts for a really long time or anything, but it did just frustrate me, because they usually communicate well.

Cameron: Yeah. I was like, yes, I do think Caleb is the best person for that job. Obviously. but it was interesting, like. who's kind of allowed to make an ultimatum and who's not. like Hanna, obviously isn't like.

Deepa: Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Cameron: She's like, “No, please, let's not do this, let's, you know, call IT, or something.”

Deepa: Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: And it just doesn't. It's not even like a suggestion that people are honoring at all.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. And she calls out, like, Spencer, like pressing it right? Like being like, “Spencer, you're not. You don't get to decide everything.” But then she kind of does.

Cameron: She kind of does. Sorry.

Deepa: To be fair. I think Hanna was probably more swayed by, like Emily's fear than bossiness. I would think. cause Emily has glass in her hair.

Cameron: Emily does have glass in her hair.

Deepa: It's like the hole in her stomach. They keep talking about it.

Cameron: “I have glass in my hair!”

Deepa: Yeah, no, that's a good point, though. Who's allowed to make an ultimatum?

Cameron: I feel like only Spencer and Aria. Maybe.

Deepa: Probably. I don't know if Emily ever tries, but. Yeah, it just seems less likely that she would be able to.

Cameron: Just interesting.

Deepa: Before the greenhouse.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Emily gets an A text, and in it Mona says “you were always my favorite”!

Cameron: Yes, she does.

Deepa: So did she. Has she heard Ali say that before? Like how? Is she just also being similarly very gay?

Cameron: All things are possible.

Deepa: but it does feel like she was specifically saying that as an Ali reference.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Because, like, we’re supposed to think Ali’s dead.

Cameron: Yeah, I thought that was very good.

Deepa: I loved it, I loved.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Also, like Emily. Why aren't you thinking hard about this?

Cameron: Right like. Who would say that? Who has said that.

Deepa: Who has said that, and if, if like. I mean I can't. I guess I can't remember if Ali used to say that to her before. Like. Flashbacks, you know. But if she said it recently, and Mona was watching that, then Emily should be able to figure out that it wasn't a hallucination.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: I don't know, but maybe she's said it before, or like something like that, you know.

Cameron: Yeah. “You were always my favorite.”

Deepa: I was also glad that we saw Mona, cause I feel like every time Mona's doing like a lot of a stuff, they don't show her as much, but then she at least pops up for the party and invites herself, and says that she and Caleb are cool now.

Cameron: It's all good! I like that Hanna hits Mona with her car. I think that's good. A little full circle moment.

Deepa: Yeah, exactly! Turnabout is fair play, even if she didn't mean to. No, it's great.

Cameron: I guess Hanna has a car.

Deepa: Yeah, I guess? She does borrow Ashley's car sometimes, but I thought she didn't have her own car. Maybe she's yeah. Maybe it doesn't make a difference. I don't know. I don't know.

Cameron: I just appreciate that.

Deepa: Yes. the scene with Tom was so…wow! I gave him worst parent, despite Byron, because, like. I kind of like, I at least get Byron's motivations. or like sympathize with Byron's motivations, even though he executes them very poorly.

Cameron: I didn't do parents.

Deepa: Oh, you didn't do that.

Cameron: I was just like, oh, I'm so annoyed so. But I agree with Tom. Let's say, Tom.

Deepa: Okay. I didn't have a strong. I didn't have a strong best. I was like Ashley, I guess.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But, like Ashley, is also like backing Tom up in some of this. So I don't love it.

Cameron: Just those moments were so small compared to all the other parent moments. I was just like, Yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

Deepa: Oh, that's fair. That's fair. Yeah, definitely. This was much more a Montgomery heavy episode. And there was just there's yeah. It's just so it's just so complicated and shitty, and like I get Ella, I get Ella telling Byron not to call the cops, because it will just drive Aria away from them. I get that. But like she's gonna do that again when they try to. When Byron tries to get Ezra a job. She's also gonna do that when Byron tries to send Aria to boarding school, which I also think is valid, that you don't want to send your daughter away when she's like dealing with this thing.

Cameron: Yeah, let's isolate her more like, or send her somewhere where she doesn't know anybody. Yeah.

Deepa: Exactly what the fucking job, Ella, you could just let you could just let that happen.

Cameron: Let it happen.

Deepa: Yeah, it might not happen, because Ezra’s a fuck. And doesn't need money, apparently, and you know.

Cameron: Oh god, right.

Deepa: I mean he should, but like he, he talks as if he's like I mean he hasn't talked about this yet, but he will talk as if he's like totally cut off right? So he needs money. That's why he's writing a book. Speaking of books.

Cameron: Oh, literary analysis!

Deepa: Yes, there were so many book things in these two episodes.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: Okay, there's so many that I'm just gonna run through a few of them and mention them and not analyze. But then I have a few things I thought a little more about. so Aria returns a book that Ezra gave her called On Writing. That is apparently a book of essays by Ivy Dunbar. I don't think this person exists. The only Ivy Dunbar I could find who wrote a book was the editor of an like issue of like a journal on pediatric cardiology. I couldn't even figure out if it was like a reference to like. you know, in the past they've had fake books where the author is like one of the writers on the show, but I couldn't figure out anything for that one. So Ivy Dunbar.

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: So there's that one. Spencer hands in an essay on Kurt Vonnegut. I haven't read any Vonnegut, and don't really want to, so. go past that. Hanna asks Lucas what the difference is between a comic book and a graphic novel, and I agree with his answer, which is just the price.

Deepa: Oh, I should have asked Stitch what they what they think the difference is, I will ask them, offline. Holden is there? Which is a reference to Catcher in the Rye. I kind of wish that they were like more consistent about Aria's, like guy friends and love interests having literary names. I think it'd be fun to have them all be like that. But it's just Holden and Ezra, as far as I, and remember, like ‘cause we can like Jake. Did we decide that guy's name was Ethan? Is that what you.

Cameron: Liam.

Deepa: Oh, I see you filled my head with other things, cause you kept saying it was like Ian or Ethan.

Cameron: I did, like multiple times.

Deepa: I don't know if Liam is a left reference to anything literary, anyway. Okay, so those are the quick things.

Cameron: Neither here nor there, but the ranking of who's the best boyfriend girlfriend whatever in the show. Jake is number one.

Deepa: Oh, okay. Interesting.

Cameron: I guess? He’s barely there!

Deepa: We like him, but he's barely there. How could you not have Caleb or Maya as number one?

Cameron: Yeah. Guess who was ranked before Caleb and Maya.

Deepa: Oh god!

Cameron: It's only two people. It was three including Jake.

Deepa: Toby?

Cameron: Toby and Mike, which fine. Mike, sure.

Deepa: Toby and Mike.

Cameron: I'll send you this list. It's pretty funny.

Deepa: Please send me this list. Is this a list of love interests for the Liars or love interests in general? like, are they talking about Mike as Hanna's love interest?

Cameron: I’m assuming Mona’s. Yeah, I think I think, Mona, yeah.

Deepa: Okay, that makes more sense. He’s technically Hanna's to. And I think that's a book thing, too, I think, in the book they actually date.

Cameron: Oh, really? 

Deepa: Mike Montgomery and Hanna, yeah. So who else is before Caleb and Maya?

Cameron: It's just those three, including Jake.

Deepa: Oh, okay. Okay.

Cameron: And Toby.

Deepa: Yeah. And then is it Maya then Caleb, or?

Cameron: Yeah, Maya then Caleb.

Deepa: I mean, yeah, Jake is fine. He's just barely there. 

Cameron: Jake is fine, but it's such a weird number one like.

Deepa: Not very impactful.

Cameron: Yeah, I was like.

Deepa: Are Alison and Emily on this list?

Cameron: For each other? Let me see. I’ll do a quick skim.

Deepa: I'm pretty sure they are the most popular ship, so I'd be curious/

Cameron: I don't think so.

Deepa: That makes sense. I guess. Yeah.

Cameron: yeah, it's only 15. It's only 16 people. So it's not every person also, which is.

Deepa: Right? That's funny.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Just says like the top, okay. Is Alex on there?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: But he's below a lot of people.

Deepa: Is he below Ezra?

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Okay. Good. Is Wren on there??

Cameron: No.

Deepa: Good. Okay. Can't believe Andrew's on there. He's just.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Andrew’s so silly I just. He's got.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay. Okay.

Cameron: Moving on. Yeah.

Deepa: Okay. So the two things I did look into more. one of them is a book we've seen on screen before, but haven't discussed on the pod, so. There is a book. The books that Spencer and Emily swap to get notes are copies of The Heart as a Lonely Hunter by Carson McCullers, which Emily reads in an earlier episode in this season in season 2. But I didn't notice it until I was like doing screenshots for outfits. So I put it in the show notes briefly. I like read a little bit about it, but so I went back and like, read a little more about it. When I put it in the show notes originally, I like, had read a very brief summary, and I thought it made more sense as a connection, because it seemed to be like centered around a character who knows everyone's secrets. But as I read more about the book, that's because people confide in him because they trust him. But I'll just tell you a little about it anyway. The book is set in a mill town in Georgia in the 1930s. It starts with 2 characters, John Singer and Spiros Antonopoulos, who are 2 good friends and housemates who are both Deaf and nonverbal. which is an interesting choice. Given the ableism in this fucking show. And then Spiros gets institutionalized. So that's probably like the clearest connection. Honestly. Because after that John Singer moved into a boarding house, and the rest of the book seems to be like. We meet a cast of characters in the town related to the boarding house, who then, like befriend John Singer and confide in him a lot, and we hear each of their separate stories. but and there's a lot of like themes of like isolation, and also a lot of discussion about like Socialism, Marxism, and some discussion about anti-Black racism in the South in the thirties. But I couldn't really find any other connections other than the institutionalization. And the I mean, it's not even really secrets. It sounds like it's more just like people tell him things that they're feeling. So that was less than I thought it would be. The other thing that I looked into was, so Byron and Ezra have this conversation where they're talking about like combining classes to talk about Henry James.

Cameron: Architecture in context.

Deepa: Yeah. So yeah, Byron says, “I thought it was a good way to talk about architecture and context. I mean, people lived in these buildings. It was the real world for them.” So the only Henry James I had read was a book called What Maisie Knew, which is like I couldn't think of any connection, it’s about like a kid in the 1800s who gets mistreated by her divorced parents. But I couldn't. I read it in college, but I couldn't think of any like connection or architecture thing, but I looked up a little bit on Henry James and architecture. There's like stuff there's like he. He was. Henry James was American, but he lived a lot of his life in England, so he sets books in both the US. And in England and in England he writes about a lot of like country houses where he describes them, and they're like crucial to the setting. The one thing. The actual book that they seem to be referring to is so that they talk about combining classes, and Byron says we can show them The Heiress. The Heiress is a movie. I had to look this up from the 1940s that is based on a Henry James novel called Washington Square, which is set in New York in Washington Square. so I read like a couple of articles on like architecture, and like urban modernism in that book and stuff, and I just couldn't find a connection so, but I’ll link to them in the show notes. So then I was like grasping for a connection. So I read a Henry James book that I have been meaning to read for a long time, which is The Turn of the Screw.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: Yes. The classic ghost story. Have you read it?

Cameron: I think I tried. I think I tried listening to it.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: and I don't know if I didn't make it through or yeah.

Deepa: I was not that into it!

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Interesting was the sorry. I thought the beginning was really interesting. But I thought the actual like second half was. Yeah, I there's not much there, and so like my reference point, for it was. It is what The Haunting of Bly Manor is based on. So like. And so I went into it, thinking part of the reason I like. Wanted to read. It was, I was like, well, I've been meaning to read this for a while, anyway. Also, like. if we're talking about architecture like, you know this, I love haunted houses.

Cameron: Haunted houses!

Deepa: Which I discovered by watching Bly Manor when we watched it together, and so I thought that would be actually interesting and like something to think about for PLL. But like actually, the book so unlike the focus, is in Bly Manor. Obviously it’s different because when you're filming something versus reading something definitely like setting is gonna have a different impact and a visual thing. But like they barely talk about the house or the lake that are both like really big deals in Bly Manor, and it's not really about like the haunting of that place. It's about the haunting of these like there are just these two ghosts or ghostly figures who are central to the plot. And yeah, it was very. It was very different than I was expecting, I think, cause. Even when you have, like, you do have books that like lead into the like atmosphere of the house, and like how that impacts like psyche, you know.

Cameron: Oh my god, sorry if have you read? I'm just thinking of one that does that like so much is that: Mexican Gothic.

Deepa: No, no, I haven't. But I yes.

Cameron: It’s so much about the place they're in, and how it's fucking them up.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, well, and that's the thing like, actually, like, I think, like, Gothic fiction is like, that's a huge like theme of Gothic fiction. Gothic fiction gets its name from Gothic architecture. Actually, so like.

Cameron: What?

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: That's so.

Deepa: So, yeah, so it's just really interesting that that's actually not like a piece of this at all, because, because.

Deepa: yeah, I just would have expected like, it is considered a Gothic fiction piece, and I just would have expected it to be more atmospheric. And that kind of thing. But it's actually maybe more about like. I also ex sort of expected it to be more of a straight up ghost story. But it's like it's possible that only the narrator even sees the ghosts, so it's possible it’s all in her head. I mean, I know that's like very common in horror stuff for things to be.

Cameron: Sure.

Deepa: That no one knows if they're real or psychological, but like this was even more so than I thought, because it's only one person that it seems to be happening to. Maybe. Anyway, I'm not sure I would recommend it. I was kind of disappointed.

Cameron: Okay? Well, maybe it's a good whatever. I didn't actually make my way through.

Deepa: But it did make me think about, and we should. You know, we can come back to this, but like it did make me think about like what spaces in PLL draw on like the horror themes of like buildings right. there's like there's definitely like Victorian era house kind of things. But like the main ones I could think of were actually not in in Rosewood. They were what turns out to be a morgue, but starts off just looking like a Victorian house in Ravenswood.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: And all like the twisty, twisty like corners and darkness and everything, and then places like Radley and the Lost Woods Motel.

Cameron: Yes, which are so explicitly named and beaten almost to death as literary references.

Deepa: Exactly, exactly, but I actually don't. Yeah, I don't. I couldn't think of anything like that many houses, I guess maybe the DiLaurentis house, but, like that many houses in Rosewood that are supposed to be scary spaces in and of themselves. You know.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like the DiLaurentis home, has, like the hiding things, and the times when. their actual like Rear Window reference, where, like Toby's leg is broken, and he's like watching them and.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: You know that.

Cameron: I feel like the house that's treated the scariest is Jenna's. Jenna and Toby’s.

Deepa: God, you're right. Yeah.

Cameron: It's the most sinister.

Deepa: Even though we rarely see much of it. But.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: That's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. Yeah. And there's like a class dynamic, too. There, right like. because that house, I think is in less good shape, then.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: at least from the outside. It seems that way.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So. No, that's a really good point. I hadn't thought of that. yeah, I think a lot of the other like spaces that are scary end up being like factories or like.

Cameron: Woods, themselves.

Deepa: Woods. Yes. yeah, I guess they are cabins, but the cabins aren't themselves scary. I don't think. It’s their isolation that is scary.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay, cool. Well, we'll keep watching out for that. But so, my literary analysis kind of came to nothing. But I did it anyway, so I wanted to talk about it.

Cameron: Me and the listeners really appreciate your thoroughness.

Deepa: I will link to stuff. But probably the most interesting things I read was, I read a few papers on haunted houses, and those were fun. So.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: More so than the actual Henry James references. So.

Cameron: Thank you. Yeah. I had a. This is a super seamless transition. But my sports corner is kind of some unresolved musings.

Deepa: Okay, please. That's what my literary analysis was, so yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. So like Emily gets a clean bill of health faxed to her, sure, and takes it to our now white swim coach, for some reason.

Deepa: Who is this new swim coach?

Cameron: New one? I don't know. Never seen her before.

Deepa: Maybe we'll never see her again.

Cameron: Possibly.

Cameron: And basically her, she's like, “Okay, I'm ready. Let's go.” And the white swim coach is like, “you know, like, I'm just not sure, like being on a team is a privilege. And like, what does this mean for the team?” And my initial reaction was like fuck you. And then, when I kind of thought about it more in like a not just PLL context, I do kind of think being on a team is a privilege. Taking someone's membership away from a sports team is actually like a good consequence for harm. They've. You know, like. I don't think that's like, I think that's actually like a really tangible thing you can do. And there's recently been calls. I don't gosh! I don't know if I want it. I'm not gonna like, get into the discourse, or drama of it, but probably the most like infamous white masc college basketball-playing lesbian. Not Paige Bueckers. 

Deepa: Not Paige Bueckers!

Cameron: We don't know her sexuality.

Deepa: Don't know, but a lot of people assume.

Cameron: A lot of so many fan edits. Oh my god, I hope she's okay. But this one is less good at basketball, less whatever. So there was recently one of her.

Deepa: You may have to. If you want the listeners to know who you're talking about, you may have to say who it is.

Cameron: Okay, I'm talking about Sedona Prince.

Deepa: Yeah, thank you, yeah.

Cameron: One of her exes recently came on TikTok and kind of documented this abuse that she suffered at the hands of Sedona. It was like really kind of intense and sad. And there is a Change.org petition.

Deepa: Oh!

Cameron: And petition currently to get TCU to take her off of the basketball team.

Deepa: Oh, really. Okay.

Cameron: That has almost 200,000 signatures. And I don't think anything has been done. I don't know. I haven't heard any updates on that, but I do think I think it's interesting, because, like athletes are often like the face of a school of a like. you know. And yeah, it is kind of an endorsement of those people, right?

Deepa: Right, and especially in like a post-NIL world where they were like athletes also can make money off of their fame. Sorry, if you don’t follow sports, it’s the court decision that NCAA college athletes are able to like use their name, image, and licensing to have sponsorships.

Cameron: Likeness.

Deepa: yeah, sorry. Go ahead.

Cameron: No, the L is for likeness, not like licensing, I think.

Deepa: Oh, really? Okay, sorry. Okay, likeness. Likeness, yeah.

Cameron: so yeah, even in a in a post-NIL world, it is so much more so. And so I think it is interesting to think about like what to think about being on a sports team as a privilege. And if I am just like more outraged at Emily getting kicked off this team.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Because like, I don't know. She, like quote unquote, didn't do anything.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, I mean.

Cameron: She’s like a queer woman of color, like what are, you know.

Deepa: Yeah, I think I think I think you're yeah. I think it's I agree with like I, I had the same reaction to the word privilege. I think.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: The coach said it. But I think you are right about that, like, yeah, like, you say, you know, we're always also talking about like, or at least we're always you and I, and people that I know who are like.

Cameron: Us two.

Deepa: Also people that we know who are like abolitionists. Yes, yes. Are abolitionists and people who support transformative justice and are thinking about like what accountability looks like outside of carcerality. Right? So like. We are always looking for ways to restrict a person's ability to do harm by taking things away from them that put them in positions of power, right or like. So in that sense, it's like this isn't a carceral punishment in a way like that, like there are like, you don't want to conflate those things right. I think where it gets tricky for me is like, who does this happen to? Right like Paige McCullers gets like…

Cameron: Okay, that's what I wrote! I was like, if we're operating under this thing, why is Paige still on the team?

Deepa: Exactly right. She's been like reported for homophobic bullying. And then her father caused a scene right like.

Cameron: And harm to teammates.

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: Like specific to teammate, part.

Deepa: And like, I think you know what's challenging about that for a coach is that Emily doesn't? Emily says not. Emily doesn't say nothing happened, but Emily says it's resolved, so Emily doesn't, you know, cause Spencer reports that right and so Emily is. The one is ultimately probably the one who would have been able to have a voice there to be for Paige to have consequences. But it is still like weird right? Because, like. even if it happened to Emily. Someone reported it, because it's like harmful to like. Bullying is harmful generally, and like homophobia, is harmful generally, not just to one person. Who is it right?

Cameron: Okay, and also talking about people that maybe should be kicked off teams.

Deepa: Yeah?

Cameron: Korbin Albert!

Deepa: YES. Fucking yes.

Cameron: I, you.

Deepa: Okay, for people who don’t follow women's sports. Korbin Albert is a member of the US Women's National Team, soccer team. She doesn't play club soccer in the US. She plays club soccer in France for PSG. she's like what 20, maybe.

Cameron: She's 20. Yeah, she is young, she is.

Deepa: She is young, and she's like. somewhat recently on the national team. But she yeah. So what it was it like was this, like a year ago. This all went on when she or was it more recent than that.

Cameron: It might have been more recent than that.

Deepa: Okay. So sometime, sometime in the last, in the last year or so, she was found to have liked tweets that were both like sort of generally homophobic, and also very specifically homophobic towards Megan Rapinoe, who was a former member of the national team before she retired. They said that Megan Rapinoe deserved to have torn her Achilles, right?

Cameron: Achilles, yeah.

Deepa: Achilles. Yeah. Torn her Achilles in the championship game last year, because she's gay. So like.

Cameron: God took time out of his schedule to give Megan Rapinoe an injury, because she’s gay.

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: Was like, yeah, the text of the post.

Deepa: Which, yeah, which is like. yeah, very fucked up. Also very weird logic, because, like the team that like did win also had a really famous gay player on it. It was like the Megan Rapinoe versus Ali Krieger final.

Cameron: Yeah, they're both gay. They're both gay.

Deepa: So, this is so. I don't remember. That's the thing. I don't remember when the tweets happened, but they were discovered in like February of this year, or something. So not that long ago. And so then there was a big backlash, obviously, because again to your point about like Emily and Paige, like this is not only generally homophobic, but harmful to a like teammate right directly and.

Cameron: Oh, sorry, what were you saying?

Deepa: No, you go ahead.

Cameron: No, you go!

Deepa: I was just gonna describe the rest of what happened after that.

Cameron: Oh, yeah, please, do. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, despite this backlash, like, she came out with like a not-apology, right like she came out with like a “I made mistakes” kind of thing, right, but not real apology.

Cameron: Yeah, just. Very like “I was forced to make an apology” apology.

Deepa: Not a real apology. I don't think she made it directly to Pinoe or anyone.

Cameron: No, I don't think so. 

Deepa: Like a “to my fans” not-apology. And then she was called up to be on the national team for the Olympics, which is a big fucking deal. And was a choice, because the coach of the national team. This is her first year coaching the National team. And so she definitely made a choice with that like.

Cameron: She did not have to.

Deepa: Like she's. She's a young player. She did not have to bring her.

Cameron: And according to Diaspora United, she is not even that good of a player.

Deepa: Diaspora United is a really good women's soccer podcast.

Cameron: Incredible podcast.

Cameron: So it's not like her talent is undeniable and you can’t make a team without her.

Deepa: Which would still be bullshit. But and like this was just like so blatant. And like, yeah. And it's just it's just fucked up and like. yeah, anyway. So anyway, what were you gonna say?

Cameron: I think. for folks who aren't as into women's sports, perhaps. I don't want to get all like nationalism, and like cause. I do think a lot of like Olympics is inherently that.

Deepa: Totally. Yeah. But I think it is a privilege to be on that team. And that team's success has specifically been built by gay players like and it it's and they've also done like so much advocacy and like created change around equal pay. And just like trying to like, do all these things that they've been pretty successful at and it just seems kind of like, I don't know exactly what word I want to use, but just like a not respecting that legacy.

Deepa: Absolutely. Well. And I think we're just gonna get deeper into this.

Cameron: We can cut whenever you want to cut.

Deepa: No, I don't want to cut! Two players that we're really and a lot of people are into from like that generation of the national team, which, because, you know, Megan Rapinoe is one of sort of the standard bearers of like a specific era of the national team. And those people are generally retiring right? Like Alex Morgan just announced her retirement recently. She's gonna be one of the later, you know ones. So, but like two players that we care about a lot are Christen Press and Tobin Heath, and they have a podcast and I remember when they were talking about, they were sort of breaking down the Korbin Albert thing as a response to the decision, like the decision to bring her to the Olympics. And one of the things that Christen was saying was like, you know, when all these discussions that we were part of as national team members during that era, like the stuff about equal pay was like the one thing that everyone was on board for, and there were lots of other things that we didn't totally resolve, including like support for Black Lives Matter was one. and Christen Press is multiracial and Black. And I think some stuff about homophobia was another right like because there were. There wasn't always like consensus across that. And there were some things that happened that, like punished homophobic players because previously to Korbin Albert we had Jaelene Daniels, who was a player who was very blatantly homophobic, refused to like wear, Pride jerseys, and shit. It was very weird, but she actually was like she received consequences for that from the national team level. She didn't receive consequences from her own team, but she stopped getting called up from the national team, I'm pretty sure. So yeah, so it just made me think about like what things like. Athletes in women's sports are able to come together on, especially in like a super white sport like soccer and like. But even though I think you're right, that that generation did a lot of like was founded on a lot of queer players’ advocacy, and a lot of that was pushing back on homophobia like I do still think it wasn't quite like the equal pay. You know. Corporate feminism narrative is so much stronger. Right? Yes.

Cameron: Yes. Yeah.

Deepa: Like Carli Lloyd can be, you know, a fan of that, and then say that like people are being too political when they want to talk about Black Lives Matter right like she can say that with a straight face and like people will buy it, even though, like she literally got involved in like politics around equal pay.

Cameron: God!

Deepa: I mean League politics. But still, that's politics.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: Yeah. So you know, the other person I was thinking of when you think of being on a team being a privilege is Colin Kaepernick right? And like. Who do we exercise these like things against right? And we've seen that to be true with, you know. athletes who commit a sexual assault, and including college athletes and, like, don't you know, lose, lose privileges for that. We saw that in this year's Olympics, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Versus like. yeah. Mostly Black and brown people or queer people.

Cameron: Yeah, doing getting kicked off for things that aren't harmful. Right? Yeah, like, like, marijuana. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's not a harm.

Deepa: Or like having too much testosterone in your body.

Cameron: Not a harm.

Deepa: So, anyway, to bring this back. I mean. Thank you, I think. Well, because, though, like with Emily, there is this narrative of like, oh, but Emily might have done harm if she like murdered someone. But they don't know that.

Cameron: You don't know that.

Deepa: You don't know that. I guess if there's like people on the team who feel uncomfortable with her, I don't know, though, you know it's like it's like, how do you? How do you? Is this? Is this really about like safety, or is about punishment? And I just think it's about punishment.

Cameron: It’s about punishment. Yeah, yeah. It just led me down a wandering.

Deepa: No, no, I love it.

Cameron: Exploration. Thank you for coming with me.

Deepa: Thanks. Thank our listeners for coming with us. Oh my god.

Cameron: Thanks listeners!

Deepa: Cause. We talk about women's words all the time all the time.

Cameron: Okay, well, we got our literary analysis and sports corner out of the way.

Deepa: I love the deep dive into like things that are maybe only tangential. like we always do a lot of tangential layers. But today all of our deep dives. Well, the first one wasn't tangential. It's just. It wasn't only about PLL.

Cameron: Yeah, we took. Should we talk about outfits?

Deepa: Yes, let's do it.

Cameron: So okay, when Byron does slut shamey stuff. We've talked about the zipper dress before.

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: Yes, but we have not talked about it with a giant spider necklace.

Deepa: True. The spider necklace was hilarious. Did you? Did you? Did you hate it, or do you love it?

Cameron: I hated it.

Deepa: Okay. I thought you would hate it, but.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: The top underneath was not as bad as the top.

Cameron: It wasn't.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, no. I also disliked the spider necklace. But I yeah. Was that your worst?

Cameron: Yeah, it was. What was yours?

Deepa: Mine was also a necklace, but it was a different one. It was the giant gold pendant that had like a cut out in the middle of it. Aria wears it with like a green and white striped tank top, which is fine.

Cameron: Yeah, fine.

Deepa: Yeah. I just thought it was ugly. Yeah, it didn't like go like at least like the spider outfit, like kind of all kind of went together.

Cameron: It did. It was a, it was a whole look.

Deepa: It was a look, you just didn't like the look.

Cameron: Not like the look. Yeah.

Deepa: I was pretty like I was pretty ambivalent on worst, though I didn't think there are that many bad out or not, that many terrible outfits I.

Cameron: No. Yeah.

Deepa: What was your best?

Cameron: Well, I thought. okay. Hanna had a nice leather jacket.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: And like dress situation.

Deepa: I thought you were gonna not like that dress. I literally wrote in my notes, “Cameron's gonna disagree with me probs, but I like Hanna's not school-appropriate lacy black and blue dress”!

Cameron: It wasn’t like that the other one that I said, wasn't school appropriate!

Deepa: Like okay, without the jacket on, though it was super like it looked like it was like lacy. And like, I don't, I don't know. It looks more like lingerie without this, without the.

Cameron: I guess.

Deepa: Okay, okay, I liked it, too. It wasn't my best, but it was close. That's so funny.

Cameron: What was your best?

Deepa: Unfortunately it was Aria's outfit when she goes to Ezra's office, and for that whole scene is like a green lacy top.

Cameron: I loved that shirt, but I just couldn't. I couldn't do it.

Deepa: Yeah. It was really good and well, it and I didn't think it was just the shirt like the rest of the.

outfit, but her hair and makeup also looked really good. So I did give that one best outfit even though it was a bad scene.

Cameron: Okay, it's on.

Deepa: And then so I put that one first and then I put Hanna's, and then my third was Mona's party outfit was cute.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah, that was.

Deepa: Before she takes it off to go swimming.

Cameron: Took a dip.

Deepa: Exactly, and then after that she probably puts on a hoodie and gloves to reach in to get Lucas's shoe.

Cameron: That was like one of the worst A outros in a while.

Deepa: It wasn't interesting at all.

Cameron: We didn't learn anything.

Deepa: There's no creepy music playing like no creepy particular song playing. No. I guess they gave us a lot of other good A stuff in these episodes, so.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Text, and the dolls and everything. But did you have any others you liked?

Cameron: No, I didn't mind Spencer's coat, but I think we've talked about it before.

Deepa: I think we have too. I think.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah, it's cute.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And Spencer did have a bird necklace.

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: Just noting it. I didn’t have feelings about it.

Deepa: I do think we have to note it.

Cameron: And noted.

Deepa: Emily had a shirt that was not terrible, and I wrote it down, and then I was like. This is such a stretch. I just. I'm glad that Emily has a shirt that's not terrible, but I'm not even close to like best.

Cameron: The bar is so low.

Deepa: It was the gray one with like little silver things. I thought it.

Cameron: Yeah. It wasn't that bad.

Deepa: But it wasn't a best outfit. Sorry.

Cameron: Oh man.

Deepa: Oh, so, random. But so Toby builds a rocking chair for Spencer, which is very cute his first time, I think, building something for a girlfriend but for some reason the reference it made me think of was Dean building Rory a car in Gilmore Girls? just like not even a reference. That's mine.

Cameron: I didn't even think of that one.

Deepa: But I think. after I thought of it, I was like you in a previous episode, have made comparisons between Caleb and. Oh my god! Names. sorry.

Cameron: Jess.

Deepa: Yes, thank you.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I could think I could think, Milo, but not the rest of it. Yes, Jess, but I do think there's some Dean-Toby comparisons. Maybe.

Cameron: Oh.

Deepa: Some class dynamic stuff. I know that Rory is not rich, but she is rich.

Cameron: She's rich.

Deepa: And yeah, I just yeah. So that, I think. Not having actually watched Gilmore Girls, I'm like... 

Cameron: Oh god! I've watched Gilmore Girls so many times. It's so embarrassing. for the record in case anyone is confused. I'm Team Jess. Let me mull over the Toby-Dean thing, because I don't know if I have and like, I think that's an interesting. I mean, they're both tall. 

Deepa: I think more in terms of the like. I think the class dynamic and the like dynamic of like Rory and Spencer having similarities in some ways.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: You know? And like, yeah.

Cameron: They are. Hyper achieving like, really focused on their goals. And they're like, academic. Yeah. And Toby and Dean are just kind of like there, yeah, no, that makes sense.

Cameron: You are bringing up Gilmore Girls. I guess I just don't even know how to respond.

Deepa: Well, that is the season of Gilmore Girls that I've seen. I've seen the first season.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: Oh, one more thing. Because I think this is probably the last time we actually see the greenhouse. I think we've like exhausted the possibilities of the greenhouse. But in a previous episode we were talking about why an abandoned greenhouse is spooky, and you mentioned, or I don't know who mentioned. We talked about how part of it is like the glass and the like. This visibility of it all right, like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And so one of the articles on haunted houses that I was looking up was talking about the shift in more recent media from like a haunted house, being like the dark, like poorly lit, falling apart. Victorian house to like modernist or brutalist, like glass and cement everywhere, brightness everywhere, like in a lot of in a lot of like more recent stuff.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: And that was an interesting article on a number of ways. But I it did make me think about that, because this is like kind of a mix between the two. It's still not that.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But yeah, like meant things that they things that they mentioned as example for the movie, The Lake House. Which I haven’t seen. But I do know what the house looks like, and it's like entirely glass everywhere. And there's some other recent movies. That use that. And the reason for like I don't know what the reason for it, but like the thing that that brings up is this idea of like surveillance instead of instead of like creepiness hiding in the corners. It's like you are being watched all the time. But yeah, it’s very relevant to PLL, even though PLL's architecture isn't like that.

Cameron: Oh, that's super interesting!

Deepa: Right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Cameron: ‘cause there is something this is sort of different, but not about like. I know, watching like midsummer or Midsommar, or whatever. Yeah, where it's like so bright the entire time. It's just like the sunniest you've ever experienced. And to have, like the horror take place in that is such a like jarring like you don't expect it. You're like what's going on.

Deepa: that's so interesting. I haven't not seen it, I think people just say midsummer.

Cameron: I'd say midsummer. But I've heard. Yeah, let's just say midsummer.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. just like how clearly you're able to see. And I don't know, like, you know, there's like a thing where, like in, you know some monster things where you, when you reveal the monster, it becomes so much less scary.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: And so much like so many things, so many things. And like, I think there's something to when you reveal a thing. And it's not that scary.

Deepa: Yeah, like. Yeah, yeah, well, and like that, like. I think it, it's it speaks to like the suspense being Okay. I don't actually remember the plot and summary, even though you've told it to me before. But maybe is there something about like. It's like the fear of the known, instead of the fear of the unknown, and that actually being scarier because it's known and like?

Cameron: I? Well, it's just kind of like a. It's a cult, right? Like a white supremacist cult. You just kind of like, keep learning that it's that.

Deepa: Okay, okay, yeah, I, okay.

Cameron: I don't. Yeah, I don't know.

Deepa: Okay. But I mean, I guess I guess what I was trying to get at was like. The villains are people that you've known the whole time, and like it like it was all there to begin with, right.

Cameron: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, it's not a new, a new thing hiding in the whatever. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. Hmm.

Deepa: Haunted houses. Haunted houses are cool.

Cameron: What's your what's your favorite haunted house movie?

Deepa: What's my favorite house movie? Well, I only had this realization in the last few years, basically, while watching Bly Manor, that I love haunted houses. That's a good question. What has become my favorite? What's the what's the exorcism one in Connecticut?

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: That's fun!

Cameron: Is it the that one's that one's good.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, what is it called?

Cameron: The Conjuring.

Deepa: Thank you. The Conjuring. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: The Conjuring, it's fun. Another one that I've watched fairly recently…oh god, I'm not gonna remember the name of this, either. I'm not going to remember the name of this, but I can link it in the show notes. But it's set in England, and it's about a refugee couple who, like. Move into really poor refugee housing, you know, that is given for and end up being haunted. yeah, I'm sorry I don't remember any names, but it's a lot about like racism and anti-Blackness, and also about like trauma that you carry with you from the place you came from.

Cameron: interesting.

Deepa: It was very good, very good. I watched it with my dad. Yeah.

Cameron: Tell me that title when you get it.

Deepa: I’m sure I texted you about it when I watched it. I'm sure I did, because I would text you about horror stuff. But yeah, I watched it with my dad, which is super interesting, because he, like just, could not wrap his head around, like most of the haunting being a metaphor for trauma.

Cameron: Oh, okay.

Deepa: He just like he was just like,” I don't understand why this happened and this happened.” I was like, “Well, like it. I think it is literally happening in the movie, but it for us. It's not about it being literal, you know.”

Cameron: Ed and Lorraine Warren.

Deepa: Thank you. Thank you.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Do you have a favorite haunted house movie?

Cameron: I mean, I like The Conjuring a lot. I think I don't know if this is strictly haunted house, but The Babadook is so fun.

Deepa: Yes, yes, I didn't think of that as a haunted house, but it is a haunted.

Cameron: It's haunting.

Deepa: Thing, yeah.

Cameron: There's they're being haunted.

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: That's true.

Deepa: That was really good. I hadn’t watched it before I watched it with you, but.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, I guess, like, atmospherically. That's why I like Mike Flanagan shows. Because, like.

The haunting-ness of it is really like. we've talked about this before like the mood and the theme and the jump scares are really good. And then I just think his plots are not always.

Cameron: Oh, the jump scares are so good!

Deepa: The jump scares are so good, they're so well done.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: Oh, that was another thing. When I was reading, The Turn of the Screw was like, okay, like are some of his bad plots from the book? They're not. 

Cameron: Just his own little vibe.

Deepa: Yeah, even though even though the like, the worst episode of that show, which is the flashback episode, could very well have been like. Oh, because, like the show, is that in modern times, right.

Cameron: Yeah, I think so. Maybe the eighties or something.

Deepa: Maybe eighties, yeah, yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But not when the book is set, which is in the late 1800s, and they could have used that if they wanted to do like a oh, this is our book episode, like this episode is about the book.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Not at all. That's a completely like made up plot that he.

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: So boring.

Cameron: So boring.

Deepa: So boring, so anticlimactic, anyway. The book also was not as gay as Bly Manor, but it was a little gay. It was. Okay, there's a friendship between. There's not that many characters in the book. There's a friendship between the governess and the housekeeper.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: Who are friends in the show. There's no gardener, so there's no love interest there. But here there's like a deep friendship between them, and there's a lot of like very 19th century language around, like, “I drew her into my arms and kissed her!”

Cameron: You did, okay.

Cameron: Oh, should we probably move on to our final segment so long? Chickpeas Oh My Gosh!

Deepa: Oh my gosh, okay, I have a recipe today, which is a very simple recipe. It's like, I don't even know if I've made it for you before, which is weird. It's like a stir. Stir fry like it's like a chickpea. Stir fry with like zucchinis and mushrooms, and it's very simple. If you have those ingredients, it's basically just like garlic, zucchinis and mushrooms and some spices. And you just stir fry them. And I think you know the only thing is, if I guess you don't like. If people don't like mushy zucchini, you should be. It has some mushy zucchini, because you start working altogether, but other than that, it's very tasty, so I'll put it in the show notes, but it's just like an easy thing.

Cameron: Nice!

Deepa: So I think after that we might have exhausted all the things in like my cooking book.

Cameron: Oh. Well. We'll figure that out.

Deepa: Which doesn't include all of the things I put in your cookbook that we haven't tried, you know.

Cameron: That's true. There are things. I'm sure, more songs I could sing.

Deepa: True. Thank you for sending me a “Your Love is My Drug” TikTok.

Cameron: You're welcome. And it was the Reign.

Deepa: And it was the Reign! And whale watching. relevant to this podcast cause. Once I saw a dolphin.

Cameron: Brilliant.

Deepa: Okay, shall we wrap this up.

Cameron: I think so. It's for the best.

Deepa: Thank you all for listening. You should definitely check out Stitch’s other work when we post in the show notes, and it was really great to have them here… and act normal, bitches.

Cameron: Do it! Byeeee.