Episodes 2.06 & 2.07: "Don't I Look Hot?"

We stand in full support of Palestinian liberation and believe that Israel should end its genocidal violence and occupation. If you don’t agree, please fuck off.

We cover episodes 2.06, “Never Letting Go”, and 2.07, “Surface Tension”. This episode not only introduces Jessica DiLaurentis, but also gives us our first hint of Wine Moms! We discuss lack of butch representation, social constructions of criminality, and our dream guests on the podcast. Peter Hastings is probably so mad because his secret son is putting up boundaries. 

Our awesome theme song is composed by Ashok R. Chandran! You can find his other work at his website.

Transcript: Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpeas Oh My Gosh! Cook chickpeas and onion and a lot of spinach in coconut milk and sambar masala. It looks like you can no longer buy the specific sambar masala spice blend Cameron used, but you should still check out Preeti Mistry’s work! 

Fashion Analysis: Our ratings of Ali’s dresses in the fashion show!

Deepa’s Literary Analysis: No one should be surprised that Deepa used to be pretentious about James Joyce, but Ezra is somehow worse?

Things We Referenced Related to PLL: 

• The wedding dress fashion show
• How the dog digging in the yard could be a Rear Window reference
• The long-lost Wine Moms podcast

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL: 

• Torrey DeVitto (Melissa Hastings) discussing astrology on Ghost of a Podcast 
• “What about the lily?” in Imagine Me and You (Deepa was wrong about which scene it was in)
• Jason Baldwin of the West Memphis Three on Amanda Knox’s Labyrinths podcast 
• Top Chef, The Great British Bake Off, and how racist cooking reality competitions are

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to help Rozan and Aboud, two young people in Gaza, escape genocide with their families. You can find multiple donation options at oldcowcreative.com!

Transcript

Cameron: Hi, everybody! Welcome back to Don't Forget the Chickpeas, your favorite Pretty Little Liars podcast! I'm Cameron.

Deepa: I'm Deepa.

Cameron: And today we are covering, in season two, episodes six and seven, and those are called “Never Letting Go” and “Surface Tension”. Do you have any places you'd like to start, or hot tips?

Deepa: I do not have any hot tips. I'm sorry. I didn't know that was a thing we did.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't know.

Deepa: Hot takes, maybe? Not hot tips. I did want to mention something that I forgot to mention last week. So when you know how we talked about how the billboard with the Gatsby reference also had a Rear Window reference?

Cameron: Ugh, it’s back to The Great Gatsby.

Deepa: No, it's not. It's back to Rear Window! So when I was looking up Rear Window again to remind myself who that character was, I saw that there is a thing that I'd forgotten, where in Rear Window there's a plot point about the murderer burying something in a yard, and a dog investigating it. So I was like. Is that a Rear Window reference? If so, it's a subtle one. But maybe that's what the…I don't know.

Cameron: That’s very funny.

Deepa: And then I was like, maybe it's just about the hockey stick. I don't know. So anyway, those are my dog-digging-in-the-yard thoughts when there isn't yet the body of Jessica DiLaurentis in the yard.

Cameron: But there is Jessica DiLaurentis!

Deepa: There is Jessica DiLaurentis. Yes, there is. So maybe we can start there.

Cameron: Who is like the epitome of a WASP. Like she's drinking Bloody Marys. She's just like been like on this board for Charitable Foundations Inc, which like sounds like, what are you even doing? That sounds so not legit.

Deepa: She got on the board just because her daughter wanted to be in the fashion show. To be honest, I don't buy that. That just sounds like the kind of thing Jessica, like Jessica DiLaurentis just seems like the person who'd be on all the boards, you know, regardless of Alison, so.

Cameron: Yeah. I love getting the backstory allegedly of this fashion show while we're getting the fashion show. Like this was so important to Alison.

Deepa: Never heard about it before.

Cameron: Okay, she liked attention, I guess. Like.

Deepa: It checks out.

Cameron: Yeah, but just to have this be the center of the first episode is very funny.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Initially, I was like, is this where they have to wear wedding dresses?

Deepa: That is literally what I was about to say. It's written in my notes that I always get this one confused with the one where they wear bridal gowns!

Cameron: Great.

Deepa: But nope, this is the one where they wear Alison's dresses. Because Jessica is wild! Jessica! What a weird thing to ask your dead daughter's best friends!

Cameron: It’s so weird!

Deepa: I know she didn't wear them, but honestly, that kind of makes it weirder like. Like she cared so much about these dresses that you have to wear them, even though she like didn't want Hanna to wear them in the flashback.

Cameron: She said, ‘cause they were like unique or like bespoke, we could say they're bespoke. Alison said, “They're all one of a kind and all mine, just like you.”

Deepa: She did say that! And it was incredible. Ali. Of course she did start off also with, “Don't I look hot?” to Emily. Of course.

Cameron: Only to Emily.

Deepa: Alison. Alison. Yeah, really gets to the idea that Ali picked them out, for you know not necessarily reasons exactly, but pick them to fill certain roles, right, that were unique to her.

Cameron: Should we do our fashion up right top?

Deepa: Yes, I mean, fashion was the name of that episode. So yes, let's do it. We confined ourselves, not just to the fashion show, but to the Ali outfits, because there were just so many outfits and so on like some of the other outfits were really good. But we yeah, we went with just the Ali outfits for our rankings. So I went with Aria’s for worst.

Cameron: Obviously.

Deepa: It was so bad.

Cameron: It was the most peplum.

Deepa: It's the most peplum. It was also just like those weird colors. I didn't like that, like whatever the yellowish color with the purple is not good.

Cameron: Mhm.

Deepa: So what did you do for best?

Cameron: Spencer.

Deepa: I also did Spencer. Yeah, I thought Emily’s was a nice color, but I didn't really like the way that it fell.

Cameron: We've seen that color before, though. Like that's what she wore to the dance in the first season. So like I'm not. I wasn't like taken by it.

Deepa: You're so right. 

Cameron: So like. Obviously, it's great like she's…

Deepa: Gorgeous, yeah.

Cameron: But, like Spencer's, was like different and like very daring, like the low cut and the feathers. It's like very interesting details. Yeah.

Deepa: And it was sparkly.

Cameron: It was sparkly!

Deepa: Samara, I'm sorry, you didn't do a good enough job with tailoring Emily’s.

Cameron: No! Which is confusing, it doesn't seem hard to do. I don't know. Maybe it is. I’ve never done anything like that.

Deepa: Tailoring like formal wear? It does seem hard to do! 

Cameron: Never mind, it does seem really hard to do. My b. [both laugh] Samara brings a date, or not-date.

Deepa: Yeah, my take on that scene was number one, that Samara's right that Emily didn't want to get serious, and it's not unreasonable to want to see other people. But also just like the way that she is about Samara and her friend Quinn, I'm just like, Emily. You need to hang out with more queer people. There's a lot of queer people that just are like that. Most people I know other than me, honestly!

Cameron: And yeah, just like, very like, you have a banter. You have a little like, ooh, you know, little jokes. And yeah. I do think Quinn here is like, you know, some of the masc-est or butchest characters were like allowed to have on TV at this time? Like she has a vest and like a short haircut. I'm like...

Deepa: That's a really good point. I didn't think about it. 

Cameron: It's like, you know, Emily's femme4femme, which is fine, like, it's what she likes, but like the fact that there's nothing else. And I know maybe Heather Hogan could come on our podcast, and we'd love for her to tell us about Paige being a baby butch, like I would love that honestly. Nothing else. But like it's just. It's so disappointing.

Deepa: It is. Especially because I mean, like we've talked about before, one of the interesting things and cool things about PLL is that Emily certainly is the center of most of the queer characters, like most of them are her love interests, but not entirely. There are so many other queer women in the show, and none of them get to be masc either. Or even just not femme, right?

Cameron: Right? Not like any. Yeah. Anything aside from…

Deepa: Like we get Shana and Jenna. Yeah, so. It’s frustrating. Yeah, I guess we're already like, out of the cute Samara period and into the they-want-to-break-them-up period, which is just like silly. I don't know. It lasted so little time.

Cameron: Yeah, I think like it served the purpose of like getting Pam to not be only homophobic?

Deepa: True, true, true, yes. And I am not mad about it, because it's paving the way for Maya to come back. I mean not the Pam stuff, I just mean the plotline is paving the way for Maya to come back, which I want now, and hopefully will happen very soon.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It's just funny. It's one of those – I feel like the way A gets Samara out of the way is very similar to the way A gets Alex out of the way like, it's just like way too easy. This one little thing  A has them do is like, okay, you're gone.

Cameron: I don't remember the Samara outing, so.

Deepa: Oh, okay. Okay. You want me to tell you, or…?

Cameron: No, I'll be surprised!

Deepa: Okay. [laughs] Anyway. Still focusing on the fashion show. Mona?

Cameron: Mona! Business Mona.

Deepa: I love Business Mona. I love her glasses. I love her outfit. I love her coup, taking over the whole show.

Cameron: Oh my god, just running it! It's so good! And it's just like, how does she have the time?

Deepa: Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I always love Mona and Spencer being at odds with each other. It's just such a fun dynamic. So of course, she has to take over right? Have that role. But yeah, I don't know how she has the time. Although, to be fair, she was using the fashion show to do A work. So this was compatible right? Like the fact that she had such an in. Honestly I was surprised that she handed Spencer the CD herself.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Because she very easily could have given it to someone else to send to hand to Spencer, being like, “Mona told me to give this to you.” And then later, Mona could be like, “I did not do that. Spencer, you did that,” you know. So yeah, if Spencer had thought harder about it, she might have started suspecting Mona. I don't know.

Cameron: Yeah, I mean, it's like, kind of a power move. It's kind of like, I don't think Mona is getting sloppy. I don't think that's happening. But it's very like, “Here's the CD, Spencer!”

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Cameron: And Noel Kahn’s the DJ.

Deepa: Noel Kahn’s the DJ! He's definitely not brainy anymore. Now he's bad boy.

Cameron: Bad boy! Oh, man!

Deepa: Mona, obviously bossing over everyone, changing everything up. Mona asking Aria if her legs are always that short? Incredible!

Cameron: She is tiny.

Deepa: Mona's also tiny, though!

Cameron: Yes. Is she taller than Aria? Do we know?

Deepa: I could very well imagine that she's not, so.

Cameron: Yeah, incredible work.

Cameron: We also get like our first kind of inklings of Wine Moms.

Deepa: Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Veronica is not there, but that's okay. They can. They can drink without her.

Cameron: Yeah, that was nice.

Deepa: Yes. I like them both getting together and talking about their daughters, but also just like gossiping and like looking at Jessica and being like, “Oh, there's Jessica.”

Cameron: “There's Jessica!”

Deepa: The Wine Moms. I still hope that one of the Wine Moms can come on and tell us about their podcast and maybe send us recordings of their podcast so that we can listen to them.

Cameron: Please? I love – we just gotta shoot for the real…

Deepa: Honestly that seems more achievable than Heather Hogan.

Cameron: What? Why?

Deepa: In my mind Heather Hogan is like such this like cool star person. It seems like hard to break in. And I don't know if Heather Hogan wants to talk about Pretty Little Liars anymore. I feel like the Wine Moms still want to talk about Pretty Little Liars.

Cameron: Yeah. That's fair. I feel like one of our goals for this like project should be to have like an absurd guest like that. Like, that would be amazing!

Deepa: It would be. We probably need to get more than seven people listening to our podcast?

Cameron: Maybe.

Deepa: I might be able to help with this, because I was on zoom with my mom's side of the family last night, they do weekly zooms, including a lot of my family in India. And so my cousin Ashok, who composed our awesome new theme, was there, and we were talking about it. And so my mom, like, brought up the podcast. and now they all want to listen?

Cameron: Hey, if…

Deepa: I tried to be like, “Oh, you guys, I don't know. It's like about this really silly show.” And my 86-year-old aunt was like, “I have a lot of time. Tell me the show, I'll watch it.”

Cameron: Incredible.

Deepa: So maybe that’s how we get our audience up in India!

Cameron: If nothing else, your family is gonna up our numbers. That's great.

Deepa: I have a big family! So.

Cameron: I mean, I think we're doing okay given the fact that we like don't market or do anything.

Deepa: True, true, given that we made this literally for ourselves, and actually, people are listening to it? Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Good point. Okay. And we have several seasons, right? So we have a lot of time.

Cameron: To build…

Deepa: Just with the goal of trying to get an absurd person to come on. Who are our top absurd people? I mean Heather Hogan is not absurd.

Cameron: Heather Hogan.

Deepa: Heather Hogan would be our number one.

Cameron: Heather Hogan. And I mean. Mike Montgomery! [both laugh]

Deepa: Yes! Okay. I would like Mike Montgomery.

Cameron: Cody something or other.

Deepa: Yes, Cody something or other. Yes, you know, when – I don't know why this particularly, but we did talk a lot about Diego Boneta coming on the show.

Cameron: Oh yeah.

Deepa: You know, when he was on? I don't know why, but that would be fun. We also talked in the first season about it being hilarious if like Wilden came on.

Cameron: Oh yeah!

Deepa: And Wine Moms, any of them frankly.

Cameron: Any Wine Mom, please.

Deepa: That’s a pretty good list.

Cameron: We got a list going! Melissa Hastings was on an episode of the astrology podcast I listen to.

Deepa: Oh! Interesting.

Cameron: So she does do podcasts.

Deepa: And she is our most chaotic character! I would love to talk to her about Melissa's chaos, yeah, Torrey something, right?

Cameron: Yes, Torrey…we could come up with people's names, probably.

Deepa: Before we officially invite them to join the podcast?

Cameron: What, like slide into their DMs? LOL. Ooh! I think this is great. We gotta have goals.

Deepa: Yes. Honestly, okay, we could pitch on Torrey – whose last name we don't know – Torrey to come and do astrology and PLL. We could talk about PLL and astrology, you would kill at that.

Cameron: It's super interesting, because a lot of the characters’ astrological, like, sun signs are changed from the books.

Deepa: Right!

Cameron: Which is so random. But also I would love to talk about that more, like what's going on there?

Deepa: Okay, we're holding out hope for that, great.

Cameron: Yeah, we'll bracket that.

Deepa: Dylan could also join us for that, you know, have a double guest episode for astrology PLL.

Cameron: This time it's serious. [both laugh] Hmm. So back to the episode! We were talking about moms. It was also a very dad-heavy episode chunk, which is not typical. Especially so much Peter, so much Tom.

Deepa: Peter was being hilarious. Just like if we had an award for most entertaining parent? 

Cameron: Is he a really bad liar?

Deepa: He might be, which is weird because he's a lawyer.

Cameron: Yeah, I thought they like knew how to do that.

Deepa: I thought so too. But yeah, he's not. He's not good at keeping this secret and not seeming really suspicious to his own daughter. Yeah.

Cameron: And to Toby, to be like, “Don't mention this to Spencer.”

Deepa: Yeah, he was. Yeah, that was the wrong move with Toby, I'm sorry. I guess he doesn't know Toby that well, but just like…Toby, when Toby gets his like – Toby kinda has resting bitch face, right? So when Toby gets this, like, not-smiley look on his face and looks really intense, you should understand that this is not working, right? That like. You're not getting away with being like charming, or whatever. I guess he turns into more like intimidating mode at that point that than trying charm his way out of it. But. Peter. Bad move. I don't know about your legal skills if this is how you are like, how are you in the courtroom?

Cameron: It's gotta be better than that right?

Deepa: I don't know. I don't know.

Cameron: He did say, “Hey, champ!” Which we appreciate.

Deepa: Maybe the first time! Also. So he's doing weird power plays with Toby, which is, I guess, makes sense. He's also doing weird power plays with his son? Over a fence that Jason is trying to put up, and it occurred to me that, like he's literally trying to stop his son from putting up boundaries between them.

Cameron: I am shocked-face for our listeners.

Deepa: What are you doing, Peter? What are you doing? Don’t you want there to be a fence? Like you seem to be trying to say – he just. He just doesn't want Jason to do anything that Peter didn't get a say in, I guess. I don't know.

Cameron: He explicitly said, “That family is always crossing boundaries.”

Deepa: Right, right.

Cameron: Which is funny to like frame it that way, or at least make that the justification for others. Yeah. But yeah, it seems like having a fence between their families, like a literal separation between their houses, would be good for Peter.

Deepa: You would think! You would think. Even if it encroaches on their property line like.

Cameron: It would just like stir things up a little less. I don't know.

Deepa: And then he was just so intense in the fireplace scene, like his like hair was a little disheveled, like he clearly been like working up to this, to throw this hockey stick in the fire.

Cameron: He's drinking. He has like Scotch or something.

Deepa: He's like eating all the things that he can't eat with Veronica out. Peter!

Cameron: Peter.

Deepa: He's so funny.

Cameron: The town whore.

Deepa: I know, I know. I couldn't give him worst parent, because he's just too entertaining, like.

Cameron: No, it's a rare like it happens sometimes, but rarely cause he's hilarious.

Deepa: So funny. He's so funny. Yeah, yeah, so I couldn't give him best either. But that's.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: But that’s why most entertaining would be good. Who did you give best parent to?

Cameron: Ashley.

Deepa: I did as well. Yeah.

Cameron: Her taking in of Emily, I thought, was just like, very much a good move on her part. Yeah.

Deepa: She was being great with Emily and Hanna.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And like, and her conversation with Ella, like all of that, was great. The only thing that was in my mind was that she's doing fucked up stuff with Tom. But.

Cameron: Yeah, I know, like she has agency in that, obviously. But it it's just like, Tom. Come on.

Deepa: I know, I know. So you gave Tom worst, I’m assuming.

Cameron: I did. They were making martinis!

Deepa: They're making fucking martinis. They started. Yeah.

Cameron: We know what that means.

Deepa: Unfortunately, we figured it out: martinis mean sex.

Cameron: Mean sex.

Deepa: Ugh. And he tells Hanna that he's sticking around to figure stuff out, and he makes it sound like he's gonna talk to Ashley about it, but it doesn’t seem like they’re doing much talking. It just seems like they're going on dates like.

Cameron: Mhm.

Deepa: And dancing where everyone can see them, and like, I think, I think the part that I met at Ashley about is the way it brings Hanna into it right? It's not just that she is doing stuff on her own. It's that like – flirting with Hanna's dad is obviously gonna involve Hanna. And Ashley’s not terribly careful about where she does it. So. Even though I blame Tom more.

Cameron: Yeah. Ughhhh.

Deepa: Yeah. Fuck Tom.

Cameron: Fuck Tom, I just like…he just seems constantly confused or like. Yeah, confused and kind of like surprised when like people, when Hanna especially isn't like excited to see him. I'm like, I don't know.

Deepa: He does actually seem to realize and vocalize what he fucked up, like, how he fucked up with Hanna? Like he does say that out loud to her, like he. Okay. Sorry. He says it out loud to Ashley, first, he says, like, “I keep dropping in and out of her life. Of course she's mad.” And then he says it to Hanna, too, as far as when she calls him out on flirting with Ashley and not using her as an excuse. But right after he does that, he continues doing stuff with Ashley, so I couldn't even really give it to him! 

Cameron: No. They're like dancing at the fashion show very publicly. Where like – this town, and one of the things people talk about is how other people perceive them and how much they think about that. Right? It's just like, ughhh.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. They don't even seem to care. So. Ugh! Parents. Ella. Ella was being fine, but I – [laughs] I do feel like, maybe I have a little bit of a double standard here, because I'm blaming Ashley for things that she knows she's doing wrong, while I'm kind of blaming Ella for things she doesn't know she’s doing wrong?

Cameron: Ohhhh, yeah…

Deepa: She still does like suggest Ezra, and invites Jason – or, no. She doesn't suggest Ezra, but she seems fine with it, right, to the awkward dinner that I've been forecasting for a while.

Cameron: Yeah. Before we get to awkward dinner…yeah. Because Ella was being very protective of Aria, and like, “Who's doing this to you,” like, “How did we miss this,” right, same with Mike? “How did we miss this?” But she was like, “If there's someone at school…” and I was like, the someone at school is in your home.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Like you invited him into your home. And so like, yeah, I'm holding onto like she's doing these things that she doesn't know are bad. Sorry, Ella, but they are bad.

Deepa: They are bad. They are bad. And like. At the same time, like Ashley knows what she's doing is wrong. But she's also not inviting – like, Hanna would actually want this, right, like Hanna does love her dad, and he's not abusive. He's a shitty dad, but.

Cameron: Shitty dad.

Deepa: But he's not literally abusing her. So.

Cameron: Yeah. I did appreciate Ella's face when Ashley brought up the Montgomerys – or not the Montgomerys, the Hastingses.

Deepa: Yes! Incredible.

Deepa: incredible.

Cameron: Oh my god!

Deepa: I love how that just like turned into a rant session about the Hastingses suddenly. “Peter Hastings never met a problem he couldn't buy his way out of.” Great line, Ashley.

Cameron: That was, that was solid.

Deepa: Yeah, it is interesting that this is sort of the first indication the moms really have of A? Like when they're recalling other stuff now they're thinking about it, and like they probably should have thought more about the trophy when it happened, because they believed that their daughters didn't do the trophy.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But then again, I guess probably after the bell tower happened, they maybe went back and were like, “Oh, maybe our daughters did do that,” because they like weren't believing them about Ian overall. So.

Cameron: Yeah, I think it was kind of, not like a wake-up call, but maybe a like moment to like, re-examine some things. Yeah.

Deepa: Especially because to them, this is happening not in the context of Ali's murder, right? Because they think Ali’s murder has been solved. So whoever is like tormenting their daughters is just doing it to torment their daughters right? Not because they're…you know what I mean? Like the trophy had to do with Ali's murder, supposedly, but.

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: This, they think is not. They think it's just someone being cruel in a very public place. So. Yeah, but it was interesting that like they are starting to catch on that there's… I think, since, since, like they realized that the Liars weren't lying about Ian – whatever the Liars were like, even though Ian didn't kill Ali, they weren't lying about him because they didn't know that, so… So I think now that has changed their minds on like, oh, shit like they haven't just been going through Alison's murder. That's not the only thing that's traumatized them like. There's something else, too.

Cameron: Yeah. Peter did bring up the fucking trophy!

Deepa: Did he? Oh, I forgot. Oh, you're right, at the end. Yes, yes.

Cameron: I was like, whoa, Peter!

Deepa: True. True. So yeah, he thinks Spencer is still doing stuff.

Cameron: Yeah!

Deepa: Good point. Good point, except – okay. In my mind, he's getting rid of the hockey stick to protect Melissa, not to protect Spencer?

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: So is he just lying to Spencer, or am I wrong?

Cameron: I don't know.

Deepa: I guess I don't know if Melissa has confided in Peter yet. I don't know when she does that. So maybe he genuinely thinks Spencer is doing shit. Huh. Okay.

Cameron: It was just that felt like a shitty thing to bring up. But.

Deepa: Totally. Totally. Yeah.

Cameron: Okay, Peter.

Deepa: Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. I was so sad when Spencer afterwards was like honestly more concerned that her dad thought she was doing this for attention, than that her dad thought she might have murdered someone. Right??

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: The Hastings family. Geez.

Cameron: Oof.

Deepa: So, Melissa and Veronica at a resort or something? I was just trying to remember where they were. 

Cameron: Do we guess where they were? Are they at Hilton Head?

Deepa: I don't think they're at Hilton Head, but I am kind of wondering if they're at resort having a miscarriage! Or if that’s another time?

Cameron: Aaah!

Deepa: I don’t know. 

Cameron: I do not know. Ugh, do we have to talk about the dinner?

Deepa: We do. We have to talk about – well, I think we have to talk about our Ezra bucket and the dinner.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I guess it's all tied up together, but Ezra was just being disgusting. Like when he was talking to Aria and she said, “You were doing really well before the police showed up,” and Ezra was like, “I was, wasn't I?” I was just like fuck you so much. You…I don't know. There's just something so disgusting about him like schmoozing up to Aria's parents in this setting where – I mean first of all, super fucking pretentious. “I went to Ireland because I love James Joyce!” Like?

Cameron: That's just like a joke, like, that's not a real thing.

Deepa: And I say this as someone who used to be really pretentious about English literature, and I still think it's disgusting!

Cameron: Like, even before they get there, when he accepts the invitation, and he's like, “It'll be good for your parents to see us together in an adult atmosphere,” or something. Which is disgusting. She's not an adult. Yeah.

Deepa: She's not an adult! And even her mom being like, “You have to get used to calling him Ezra.” Like, does she?

Cameron: I don’t think so!

Deepa: I don't think so either. I mean, I guess I haven't really seen any of my old teachers since high school… well, I think I went back and visited, like, you know, like a few years into college. I wasn’t going to call them by their first names then! I still called them what I called them in high school. And this isn't even someone who's out of high school.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: This was her teacher a week ago, and she’s sixteen.

Cameron: Ughhh. And it's just like, we have the Jason and the Ezra, and they're just lurking.

Deepa: Yeah. For some reason thought there was more weird power play between them over Aria. But there was still enough for it to be horrible.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like Ezra at the end when she's like, “You should go.” And he's like, “Both of us?” Yes! Both of you!

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: This actually doesn't have to do with you. Aria didn't tell you about Mike, which I think is kind of amazing.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So yeah, no, leave. Please leave this family alone.

Cameron: I fucking wish. Do you know why it's like personally offensive to us, the flowers that Ezra brought to the dinner party?

Deepa: No. Why were they offensive?

Cameron: They were lilies.

Deepa: Oh, no! Okay. Please explain for our listeners.

Cameron: And in Imagine Me & You, wonderful lesbian romcom – 

Deepa: Great film. Classic.

Cameron: – our love interest is a florist. And they're on their first sort-of date, sort of…we don't know, hangout.

Deepa: Honestly, also an awkward dinner party, I think, right?

Cameron: True! Awkward dinner party.

Cameron: And our protagonist’s favorite flowers are lilies. And she’s like “What does that mean?” you know, as far as like flowers have meetings, and the florist is like, “I dare you to love me.”

Deepa: And it's amazing.

Cameron: Just like, in that moment in the movie, it's like, whoa! So I was upset about that.

Deepa: That is, I am now upset. I only wasn't upset earlier, because I don't know anything about flowers, so I didn’t realize they were lilies. Listeners, the degree to which I don't know anything about flowers is, once someone brought me a bouquet of flowers on a date, and I asked, “What are these?” and they went, “These are tulips.”

Cameron: Yeah, that's like, really embarrassing. Those are like very distinct flowers.

Deepa: The most obvious flowers! Lilies… Ezra, fuck you? Ugh. I dare you to…die.

Cameron: [laughing] I dare you to die? Great. Okay.

Deepa: Maybe we should talk about Jason overall. Not just related to the party,  because we got a lot of Jason. We did have an Ezra-less episode, actually, the fashion show was completely Ezra-less.

Cameron: Ah, thank god.

Deepa: But, I honestly didn't even feel the relief of it, because Jason was around.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Being weird with Aria.

Cameron: Yeah, I think we're doing a much better job at holding ourselves accountable. I think we keep saying he's creepy, so that's good.

Deepa: I think it’s because we've never liked his interactions with Aria. Right? So it's easy to remind ourselves how shitty that is. Because, yeah. And I forgot how soon a lot of it happens, and how, you know, new Jason is interacting a lot more with Aria than with Spencer. And in my mind, his first connection really is with Spencer around, you know, them being siblings. But I don't know if that's gonna happen for a little while. So.

Cameron: Who are Jason's like… so he has this yucky situation with Aria. Who are his like love interests? Who is he like…? No? We don't know? There's no one?

Deepa: He never dates anyone. So he, he and Aria have this weirdness now, and then he like realizes – I think at some point he kisses her, and she rejects him, and he like knows that it's Ezra. And then I don't think we see Jason have a love interest for a really long time, until Ashley.

Cameron: Right!

Deepa: He does want to date Ashley after that happened.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: And she rejects him. And then in the time-skip, the five-year time-skip, way down the line, he and Aria date for a little while, but we only see flashbacks of it after the time-skip. Which, I don't think I'd remembered until our most recent rewatch that they actually officially date when she's in college, I think. Maybe she's just out of college. I don't remember. But after that I don't think Jason has any other love interests. Just the two AM’s, Aria Montgomery and Ashley Marin!

Cameron: He’s just like pining after them?

Deepa: I guess, maybe? I don’t think he pines after Aria, I wouldn't say. Maybe he does. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I can't remember anyone else.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: We've heard about past times, so he's definitely kissed Melissa and dated Charlotte, so…

Cameron: Well! That's.

Deepa: And Charlotte knew. But those are all flashbacks. Those are all before the show starts.

Cameron: It's funny to think of. So if those are flashbacks before the show starts, it's Business Jason dating them.

Deepa: Oh my god! It's Business Jason.

Cameron: Which is funny.

Deepa: That would be hilarious. Business Jason and Melissa might make sense. Business Jason was more like preppy type. He talked about being a stoner, but he seemed more in that vein, you know.

Cameron: Like Ian-adjacent.

Deepa: Exactly!

Cameron: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Deepa: You could picture them being friends. We also got some Jason flashbacks. He was like super horrible to Ali.

Cameron: Yup!

Deepa: Like threatening violence towards his younger sister. Very cool, Jason. Ugh. So I get their suspicion of him, or at least Spencer’s suspicion.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Aria does not seem suspicious.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: I'm glad that they're still wondering who was in Jason's house, because then maybe we'll get some answers.

Cameron: I would love to know.

Deepa: I thought they’d drop that plot point, you know.

Cameron: They probably do, but.

Deepa: There’s a slight chance they’ll answer that.

Cameron: Yeah. Is that where like Jessica's staying when she's here, or she like…’cause that seems funny for some reason.

Deepa: I don’t know. ‘cause. Yeah, we did get the news that Jason bought the house, not the DiLaurentis family.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And that he came into some money, which I assume means their dead grandmother, who did not, in fact, disinherit him. But that's my assumption. So yeah, I don't know. But it also seems weird for her to not stay there.

Cameron: Both of those seem weird.

Deepa: We haven't really seen them interact. So.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It all seems weird.

Deepa: Oh, yeah, we did get the fact that Jason is going to guide the “at-risk: youth school.

Cameron: The “at-risk” youth.

Deepa: God. And that is why Ella invited him over. So I guess he's gonna be seeing more of Ella.

Cameron: Yeah…

Deepa: So I very much enjoy Emily staying with Hanna. I think all the rough spots are already worked out at this point like that's my memory is that there's that scene where she's really loud about her music, but after that works out. It is funny to me that Pam would trust Ashley with Emily? Because Ashley is like, even though she might not know how chaotic Ashley is, Ashley's clearly not that much of a disciplinarian. So.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Maybe at this point, because Pam is feeling guilty about having separated them, like all the parents are, and feeling bad about not – well, she kind of believed Emily about the Ian thing. But you know all this stuff. Maybe that's why she's letting go. But like of all the parents to trust her daughter with, Ashley is funny. Not that Ashley would ever be a bad caretaker, just in terms of like not being that strict with Emily.

Cameron: Yeah, like, Emily was definitely like. Her making them breakfast was so cute.

Deepa: Maybe they ate something that morning.

Cameron: Very exciting.

Deepa: Thank you, Emily.

Cameron: Like an omelet.

Deepa: Yeah, you shouldn't feel like you have to do that as a guest. But I really appreciate you doing it so that they actually get to eat something. Not “get” to! Do eat something.

Cameron: “Get” to.

Deepa: They can eat something anytime.

Cameron: They could! Ugh, I was upset that Hanna threw out the Thai food that Tom brought, like I I understand, but like you could have just eaten that, please.

Deepa: Could have just eaten that and still said, “Fuck you, dad,” like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: She also threw out the candy that A sent because it was supposedly bad candy. Is it that bad? I guess it could be drugged, A is drugging Emily’s like cream.

Cameron: Oh! So soon! I hate that storyline.

Deepa: Is it steroids that she's putting in the cream? Is that what happens or she's just? 

Cameron: I think it's something that's like a banned substance for whatever rules are regulated. Some performance enhancing something or other.

Deepa: Okay, okay. So it's not necessarily fucking up the cream's ability to ease Emily's pain. It's just putting substances into her body that are going to get found out. Okay.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't think it's like, yeah, neutralizing the goodness of the cream.

Deepa: Right.

Cameron: I mean, like Mona could definitely pull that off like the chemistry of it, for sure.

Deepa: Mona knows everything.

Cameron: But the doping plotline is so, it's upsetting.

Deepa: It's upsetting. Yeah, I do think it's incredible that we got that scene with “I've Got You Under My Skin” playing in the background.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: This show!

Cameron: The other. So that was like the fade out of the second episode, or episode 7 or whatever. The fade out of the first episode was Mona buying boots either for Therapist Anne, or…matching Therapist Anne?

Deepa: Wait. Why are they for Therapist Anne?

Cameron: They're Tory Burch boots. Isn't that what Hanna was talking about?

Deepa: Ohh. I thought they were, for I thought they were riding boots for some reason? For the riding plotline that comes up. Okay, okay.

Cameron: That takes a while, right?

Deepa: Yeah, I guess Tom has to come… Tom has to decide to be with his fiancée instead of Ashley, and then bring them to town. But it should happen in a few episodes. Okay, I didn't pay that much attention to the boots. I just thought like I just looked at them briefly. But, okay.

Cameron: Something to do with Therapist Anne.

Deepa: Okay, okay, so I think that's just supposed to give us an indication that A is gonna interfere more with Therapist Anne. I guess.

Cameron: I think so.

Deepa: It's weird to buy her boots!

Cameron: It is, and I don't. I don't. Maybe I misinterpreted that, but it was boots that Therapist Anne wears. I don't know. Yeah.

Deepa: That's very funny. When I thought it was riding boots, I was like, oh, are they dropping more hints because Mona is there for that? Is this more dropping hints about Mona being A for us to pick up on? But maybe not. Maybe not.

Cameron: I don't know. Interesting.

Deepa: But also I don't even remember. Oh, wait. No, A does interfere with that. Because yeah, A, I think, does interfere with the whole riding thing.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I think. Anyway, we'll see.

Cameron: Mona puts her helmet on the like broadcast something or other. Right? Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. So maybe it's not supposed to be A, maybe it's supposed to be an accident.

Cameron: Oops! Yeah. I don't like the shit we get with Hanna's potential step-sister person. I don't appreciate it.

Deepa: It’s all bad.

Cameron: It's so gross.

Deepa: Yeah, it's all gross. And we get a different actress, too, from the first one that we met.

Cameron: This one's less…homely?

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. She's supposed to have undergone some big makeover or something.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, no, it's all bad. It's all bad. I'm glad that Hanna's grandmother intervenes, and some of that. But.

Cameron: Yeah. Thank you, Hanna's grandmother.

Deepa: Yeah, thank you, Hanna’s grandmother.

Cameron: We have not talked at all about Caleb.

Deepa: Caleb!

Cameron: Caleb shows up, and, in Spencer's words, is looking “very hot.”

Deepa: It is funny that it’s Spencer that says that. But yes. Also, just objectively true. So yeah.

Cameron: Yes, yeah. I mean, it's just an observation.

Deepa: Yeah, he walks Hanna home. And yeah, they're very cute. Even in this second episode, meeting episode seven, where they're having a little bit of tension, it still ends up being very sweet. And yeah, I love when Hanna's at first like not gonna like pretending not to push him on telling her about his past, and then just like switches to the thing about hair extensions. It's incredible.

Cameron: That's so good. It's like, “Oh, yeah, we can talk about this. Or…”

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: “I don't know if there's something else you would like to share.”

Deepa: It's also, it's a reminder of like how on paper, they don't have a ton in common, right? But they work really well anyway, because they care about each other.

Cameron: Oh my god, I love the scene, I think after that, where Hanna is talking with Emily, and is like, “So I told Caleb I wouldn't tell anyone this thing. How do you feel that I'm not telling you a secret that Caleb told me?” I was like, I love this!

Deepa: That’s so great! I feel like that's the kind of thing what we would do!

Cameron: Absolutely.

Deepa: “I can't tell you this thing. Does that make you feel sad?” 

Cameron: “Are you okay about that?”

Deepa: I think that Emily and Hanna are best friends, I'm sorry. And like I get a little irritated by people shipping Spencer and Aria, but I do think that they're maybe the like closer to each other than to the others. So. I only get annoyed about people shipping Spencer in Aria, because more people do that than ship Emily and Maya, apparently. So.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like it shouldn't be a competition. But unfortunately it is because no one is…yeah, anyway. Sorry.

Cameron: All roads lead to complaining about fanfiction.

Deepa: Or…racism?

Cameron: Uh-huh.

Deepa: Racism in fanfiction? Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So this happens with Caleb, but also with Mike: we do get a lot of talk about what a criminal is.

Cameron: 100%.

Deepa: That is going to continue with the Mike stuff, and it's so weird.

Deepa: Well, because. ‘Cause he is not a criminal, is what Ella says.

Deepa: Yes, “Mike is not a criminal,” so.

Cameron: Not a criminal.

Deepa: But what? What is a criminal, Ella? What.

Cameron: ‘Cause if we're operating like, it's socially constructed. And we all agree that these things – like the main thing is protecting property, right? That's what like laws are about like. Mike is doing the thing that you're not supposed to do.

Deepa: Exactly. He is doing the quote-unquote “crimes”, right? So what is it? What is a criminal if not a person who does the crimes, right?

Cameron: Yeah, that we just decided are crimes. What is it? 

Deepa: But no, that’s not what a criminal is. A criminal is something like inherent to you, or maybe not even inherent in a like biological way. But something about you as a person, something that has either been socialized from a young age or is inherent to you, and is like a status, and is not one that could possibly happen to a like middle-class white kid in this upper middle-class white town, right?

Cameron: Yeah, I was just listening to Amanda Knox has a podcast called “Labyrinths”. And she was talking to one of the West Memphis Three, and it's all about that right. These are poor kids. These are kids who listen to metal and like, have gotten in trouble, for like hanging out in places they're not supposed to before. And that means that they did Satanic ritual murder of children with no evidence. Right? It's just like that's what that means. Because these are kind of outsiders, because they're not like… it’s like Jesus Christ like that's all it takes like. That's a criminal, right?

Deepa: Right!

Cameron: That's who is a criminal.

Deepa: Yeah, it's not even. It's like. It's not even about – like, we have this idea of racial and otherwise profiling of criminals. But it's not even that really, right. It's not even seeing a crime and looking for someone who fits that. It's almost the other way around, right? It's almost you have been brought up to fit this narrative, that which primarily impacts, that impacts like poor Black kids right? And that just like gives you something that is more important than the actual actions you've taken. And that does not exist for a white kid who just like “makes mistakes”, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And to be clear to our listeners, we're abolitionists, and we don't think that Mike should be like getting like incarcerated for this, either. It's just. How we construct the idea of criminality, and how it's just never founded around a kid like Mike.

Cameron: No.

Deepa: And you know, the context in which Caleb brings it up is in talking about his past, and talking about what he's doing now versus what he was doing when he was helping the guys in Allentown, that he calls “bad guys”, who were stealing and selling car parts. And he says, he concludes with, “Believe me, I know the difference between sketchy and criminal,” right? So he's but he's I think – the problem is that Caleb is in this constructed area of what could be criminality. So it kind of doesn't matter right like. And I think that's what Hanna's scared of, right, like “sketchy”, could turn into “criminal” very easily if the wrong person finds out.

Cameron: Yeah. And I think. Unfortunately, Hanna's like, “We should tell the cops.”

Deepa: Right! Right impulse to protect Caleb. Wrong impulse of what to do about it.

Cameron: It wouldn’t protect Caleb.

Deepa: It would not.

Cameron: Oh, yeah. Are we getting the first inklings of, we think Caleb's being trailed by some sort of law enforcement thing. But then it's a PI?

Deepa: It’s a PI, who is working for his mother, question mark?

Cameron: I thought it was his dad.

Deepa: Is it his dad?

Cameron: I don't know.

Deepa: I think we get Caleb finding his mom before we get Caleb finding his dad, don't we?

Cameron: Oh, you're right! You're right.

Deepa: I think.

Cameron: Well…

Deepa: Okay, I'm backtracking this because Caleb's dad at one point helps with the bell tower in the church, and I think it's Pastor Ted who hires him for that. And I think we're a long way from Pastor Ted, a season or two, maybe. So. I think that Caleb finds his mom first.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: It's funny that that's how I…

Cameron: You gotta grasp some things, you know. Yeah.

Deepa: I think he does, because I think he's madder at his dad than he is at his mom right, once it happens. And he's already found his mom by that point, and he's like forgiven her for a lot of stuff. But he's still mad at his dad, I think, because he was in his life, but pretended not to be his dad. Right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It’s shitty.

Cameron: That's weird.

Deepa: Very weird. “Oh, yeah, this is your uncle.”

Cameron: Yeah. I think Melissa's name is Torrey DeVitto.

Deepa: Oh, nice!

Cameron: Yeah.

Cameron: That's how long it takes. But yeah, I got there.

Deepa: Great. But yes, to bring it back to your question. Yes, I think when we zoomed out of the scene where Caleb was arguing with someone who stiffed him for the work he did, and we saw a car across the street. I think that was the beginning of the PI trailing him and Hanna being worried that it's cops trailing him for this Allentown stuff, which is again, this funny thing of like Hanna just learned this stuff, so of course it's like relevant to everything she sees.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But I guess that is how people's brains work right like.

Cameron: Really.

Deepa: Recency bias, or whatever.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: About Mike himself…

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: Mike! First of all, Mike's room is hilarious. He just has a side view mirror from a car that says, “Parents in the mirror are closer to than they appear”?

Cameron: Like angsty teen personified.

Deepa: Incredible decorating!

Cameron: Beautiful.

Deepa: It's great! I love it. 

Cameron: Oh my god.

Deepa: And then – I don't know, obviously the Montgomerys start to realize that they haven't been understanding what's going on with Mike, and that they, Ella, at least, is realizing that this is also on them, right, for not understanding and not paying – well, it’s not that they haven't been paying attention. They just haven't understood that what he's going through is actually really hard, not just to being a bratty teen. And then Aria is obviously worried about him too. But then Aria in this conversation, where she's confronting him about Jenna's pottery, which is legit, and also yes, it's a big shock to her when she realizes the Garrett connection – but she just washes over the fact that Mike says, “I broke into a cop's house to try to steal a gun, to get away from here.”

Cameron: That's much more serious.

Deepa: Especially right now in this moment!

Cameron: Yeah, that would be.

Deepa: Garrett’s not gonna kill Spencer if you don't text her right away, but like maybe you should pay attention to your brother saying this.

Cameron: Like that was a very much like oh, maybe we should ask Mike some questions and see where he's at, cause like oh, no, honey.

Deepa: Mike! Yeah, Mike needs care right now, and attention. And like, even in this conversation, where you're, you're not paying attention. So I'm like, you know, I think generally Aria is a good sister. We talk about this. That's like one of the places where we do really like Aria, in her relationship with Mike, and like. And the way I think she sticks up for Mike with her parents, too.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Especially with Byron. But yeah, but that moment I was just like, that sounds pretty important.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. It's not that she's being self-centered exactly. It's just that. It's just that, like, her mind clearly latches onto this one thing and has no room for anything else, and I'm like, there's other stuff here, too, like, keep yourself in the moment.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I think you could wait until Mike is finished speaking to like. Tell Spencer that Garrett's not trustworthy.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So. You know, I do think I mean, it's like, this is the start of like a hard sequence for Mike and them actually realizing how depressed he is, but also it does like eventually lead to him getting the support he needs. I think. So. It's good, at least.

Cameron: God, just like, imagine, you know, dealing with what Mike is dealing with and being upset and feeling just like l however, he's feeling, and then Byron is your father.

Deepa: I know. Geez.

Cameron: Like Jesus Christ!

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. I feel for Mike, like the lack of compassion from Byron, not just even when he's arrested, but before that, like demanding Mike comes to this fucking dinner party from hell without like I don't know trying to talk to him. Not that like Mike would necessarily talk to him, but just like I don't know, you know.

Deepa: Yeah, just yeah.

Cameron: “This is important. We need you to be there.” No, it's fucking not important! You know?

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. Especially when it's in the context of… so the reason this dinner is important to Byron is because Ella's moved back. And they want this like, they want the experience, but also the perception, of them as a happy family again. Right? And who was it that is responsible for them not being a happy family? It's you, Byron!

Cameron: You, Byron! So yeah, it's important to you, Byron, for, like redeeming your image, or whatever but.

Deepa: Especially with colleagues who are.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: You know, the only people invited to this. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. So it's just like that scene, I just feel for Mike. And yeah.

Deepa: I think it's Byron being very shitty. I also think it's incredibly realistic.

Cameron: I know.

Deepa: Not even for someone who has done all the shitty stuff Byron has done. I think parents often do that, right? They get so mad about the way that they perceive their kids “purposefully” defying them that they aren't able to be empathetic about it, you know. Because from their perspective, like, why would Mike have a good reason for not coming to this dinner? Like this is good, like, I think, in Byron's mind like, “This is good for all of us. This is a family thing. This is us,” you know. And I'm sure there's some guilt there, too, from Byron, you know, but he's taking out that guilt on Mike instead of on himself.

Cameron: Which is where it belongs.

Deepa: Where it belongs, and which actually means, like his guilt should actually make him have more compassion for Mike, because this is the impact of your actions, Byron, but I think it's incredibly realistic that he is misplacing that. And I think parents do that sometimes, and it's a like super shitty, but super – I don't want to say relatable in the sense that I'm not sympathetic to it, but it's relatable in the sense that it's real, you know, realistic.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. And I do think this is ultimately what breaks Byron and Ella up because Ella is not on board. Right? Ella is understanding that Mike needs compassion right now, and also like, is understanding that Byron started all of this, where he doesn't want to understand that. He probably does get it. But he doesn't want to.

Cameron: Maybe in his mind, Ella is the wronged party, and, like no one else, is allowed.

Deepa: He’s certainly trying to frame it that way.

Cameron: Yeah. Allowed to feel bad about it, or like, be upset about it.

Deepa: Oh, oh, sorry you're saying. Ella is the only person who's hurt by his actions.

Cameron: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa: For some reason my mind read that as even though you said wronged party, my mind read it as like the one who's done something wrong by moving out, which he was trying to frame it as a long time ago, right?

Cameron: That's true. Yeah. She let down this family. She escaped.

Deepa: “You walked out on me!” 

Cameron: Oh my god, Byron!

Deepa: Yeah. Why do you have to marry him again, Ella? I guess your kids are all grown up at that point. So you don't care anymore.

Cameron: But he's still who he is.

Deepa: He doesn't meaningfully change. Like Byron has zero growth. I guess they get far enough away where the other problems in their life are bigger than his cheating. You know what them breaking up does mean, though.

Cameron: Hot Mama dot com.

Deepa: Okay, yes, that. But that's not what I was thinking of. I was thinking of what other character that we haven't mentioned yet in this episode comes back.

Cameron: I mean. What character? Why am I having trouble with this?

Deepa: You like this character. I mean, we both like this character. We think she's hilarious.

Cameron: Give me a clue.

Deepa: I don't know how to give you a clue. I’ll just tell you: it's Meredith!

Cameron: Meredith! Sorry, Meredith. Oh my god, the shit she does with Aria is fucking nuts!

Deepa: So funny, so funny. So we'll have that chaos back soon.

Cameron: Oh my god! Like. Yeah, okay, that's true. Looking forward to that. Okay, shall we move on to the final segment?

Deepa: Let’s do it.

Cameron: Chickpeas Oh My Gosh!

Deepa: Chickpeas Oh My Gosh!

Cameron: I was gonna try a new recipe, and then I didn't go to the grocery store. So instead, I just kind of threw some things together, and it wasn't terrible.

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: So that's what I'm gonna pitch today. I got a can of chickpeas, as you do, and half an onion. I sauteed the onion and then cooked the chickpeas, and then put some spices in it and some coconut milk and a shit ton of spinach. And I wanted to mainly show you this because I used this guy.

Deepa: Oh!

Cameron: Which is the – Preeti Mistry from Top Chef, eliminated way too soon, way too early, of course. But Deepa bought her spice blend mix, and Deepa doesn't need Indian spices…

Deepa: At my parents’ house.

Cameron: Yes, aside from supporting the chef, Deepa gave me that, and it's very yummy.

Deepa: Preeti Mistry’s spice company, or at least the label for this, is called Spice Walla. Do you know what wallah means?

Cameron: Nope.

Deepa: I don't actually know what it literally means, but it's like, usually a person who sells things like the chai wallah is the person who sells chai and the kapi wallah is the person who sells coffee because they call it kapi. So I think it means, I think it's a Hindi word, and I don't speak Hindi, but I think it means person to sell things, but I also appreciate that the tin has cute art on it, including a rainbow flag.

Cameron: It’s just a picture of Preeti and a gay-ass flag behind her!

Deepa: Exactly! What season of Top Chef was she on? Was it season four?

Cameron: Early. Yeah, I think it was one of those, and yeah eliminated way too early. I mean, as I don't think we've talked about on this podcast, but we've talked about ad nauseam in our friendship, is just like how fucking racist cooking shows are.

Deepa: All racist. They're all racist. Yeah.

Cameron: So it's so obvious in a way that, like it isn't maybe in other places.

Deepa: It really is. And okay, I know that you don't like The Great British Bake Off because it's English. Which is fine. However, my mom was watching, rewatching, because we've watched all of it, some old episodes. And I was sitting with her and watching them, and I was thinking about how – so recently you shared with me that because of your research, you were doing demographic research on England right? And like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: About like 81% of England is white or something like that.

Cameron: Thing. Yeah.

Deepa: Right, which is way more than the US. More than even Seattle, which is impressive.

Cameron: That's shocking. Oh my god, yeah, okay.

Deepa: England is whiter than Seattle. However, The Great British Bake Off has had many winners of color like. And I don't. I'll have to go back and look to see if they've had anyone who's Black. But again, the Black population in England is so much smaller than the US.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And they’ve had Black contestants who made it really far for sure. So it just like brought home to me that like. Yeah, the American, like these reality shows are super fucking racist like, it's not just like the amount of you know, it's not just the demographic reality of like there's always gonna be more white people on the show right.

Deepa: It doesn't have to be like that.

Cameron: No, it does not. These are intentional. These are choices.

Deepa: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I'm sorry. Bake Off may be less racist than American cooking shows.

Cameron: Damn! I mean.

Deepa: Which doesn't mean you have to watch it, but you may have to accept that.

Cameron: Ugh, okay. Yeah. So thank you for supporting Top Chef contestants eliminated far too soon, far too early. And for giving me yummy spice blends.

Deepa: I'm glad. Oh, that's an interesting, I'll have to think about. I'll have to try making something with coconut milk and sambar masala is what you what have, which we call sambar podi, podi just means powder. But I don't think I've put it together with coconut milk much before.

Cameron: It was nice. I will make it again, I imagine. And I promise to try a new recipe

for our next installment.

Deepa: Oh, I think the next one is on me, so I will. I could bring something next time. So you have a couple installments.

Cameron: Okay, phew.

Deepa: Well, thank you, everyone, for joining us for yet another round of our podcast. And until next time: act normal, bitches!

Cameron: [whispering] Byeeee.