Episodes 1.14 & 1.15: "The Rich Girls Steal and the Pretty Girls Lie"

Today we discuss episodes 1.14 “Careful What U Wish 4”, and 1.15 “If at First You Don’t Succeed, Lie, Lie Again”. We get extremely excited about the arrival of a new character (zero guesses who), compare PLL to like five other teen dramas from around the world, reference Tiktok memes that are years-old now because Deepa hasn’t been on Tiktok since 2021, do some historical analysis, speculate about what Mona’s up to during these episodes, and, as usual, fail to remember details from the night of Ali’s “death”.

Episode Transcript: Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpea Recipe: Sheet-Pan Feta with Chickpeas and Tomatoes (we suggest using only 1 teaspoon of honey, and adding other spices to your taste - Deepa's family added garam masala and ground cumin)

Corrections: In our outfit discussion, Deepa said that in episode 15, Emily was wearing the scarf that Maya gave her. Turns out it was just a random scarf! No longer Deepa’s favorite outfit then lol.

Fashion Analysis: Our (slightly revised) best, worst, and almost-worst outfits!

Deepa’s Literary Analysis: Wuthering Heights is the worst; even some who think it’s brilliant also hated reading it

Things We Referenced Sort of Related to PLL

• Teen Wolf and Bianca Lawson’s role in it as a guidance counselor, one of the few times her career at that point where she hadn’t played a teen

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL

• Other teen dramas from the early 2010s that had plotlines where homophobic bullies turned out to be gay themselves (and often became love interests for a primary queer character), like Glee and Shameless
• Brief mentions of Elite and Blood & Water which both have (sort of) swimming plotlines
• Dean breaking up with Rory at the Americana themed dance-a-thon in Gilmore Girls 
• More discussion of How to Get Away With Murder and important bisexual things (cough, Eve)

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to Free Lawrence Jenkins! Lawrence is an incredible abolitionist, artist, farmer, political educator, organizer, & friend of ours who is currently incarcerated. Help his defense committee to fight for his release!

Transcript

Deepa: Okay, welcome back to Don't Forget the Chickpeas, your favorite Pretty Little Liars rewatch  podcast. I'm Deepa.

Cameron: I'm Cameron.

Deepa: And today we were talking about episode 14 and 15 of the first season – 14 is called “Careful What U Wish 4”, where the “you” is the letter “U” and the “four” is the number “4” – and 15 is “If At First You Don't Succeed, Lie, Lie Again”. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna speak for Cameron and assume that the first thing we wanna talk about is what I was most excited about, which was the arrival of Caleb!

Cameron: Whooooo!

Deepa: Let's start with the high. No low this time.

Cameron: No low

Deepa: Just high. Just like how the Hastings play it, only high. [both laugh]

Cameron: Oh my gosh! I was so excited to see him, like, leaning against the locker, or whatever.

Deepa: Leaning against a locker, looking like – I don’t know, smirky! [both laugh] He also came an episode earlier than I was expecting at this point, because I didn't remember that he came during dance episode, and he does. And I love how everyone immediately, except for Aria, interacts with him in a different way.

Cameron: Yes, that’s funny.

Deepa: He and Hanna are immediately adversarial-flirty, Emily is immediately hiring him, and he's immediately catching Spencer breaking and entering.

Cameron: Yes, it's like, this character’s gonna be around.

Deepa: He’s pretty important. Two of you will fall in love with him.

Cameron: Yes! [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh, especially, like – obviously, I wish I could have them both at the same time – but especially with Maya being gone, I'm happy that we got Caleb, just to like, give us something, I mean. Come on.

Cameron: Yeah. I'm just so excited he's here. Like him and Hanna are already cute even though nothing's even happened.

Deepa: Nothing’s even happened. They’re just, like, snarking at each other.

Cameron: Yeah. [both]

Deepa: I love how quickly, though, Caleb is gonna go from being the “bad boy” to, like, absolutely not. [both laugh] They are very weird about him at the beginning. They're very racist about him. And classist. It's weird for someone that you've never met before, who just joined your school and happens to, like, have long hair. But so does Toby.

Cameron: Well, they're weird about Toby, too! So.

Deepa: That’s true, that’s true. You’re right. But Emily’s not weird about Toby. Emily spends these entire episodes defending Toby and talking about how unfair it is that Toby is being blamed for something Ian did…and then turns around and is like, “The new kid’s sketchy.”

Cameron: “Sketchy.” She says “sketchy” at least, like…I don’t know how many times. And I was like, okay, we get it.

Deepa: Emily! Emily. We get it. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s different because like – he’s indigenous! And Toby’s white! So.

Cameron: Yes. Yes, it is different.

Deepa: But anyway, most of it was positive. I was very happy. Yeah, I forgot that the first thing he does is help Emily like – I don't understand what they're doing to her phone to make her able to call Maya –

Cameron: Absolutely not.

Deepa: – but he does it!

Cameron: He figures it out!

Deepa: Maybe for like $60, which doesn't seem like that much.

Cameron: I would pay much more money to talk to my lesbian lover that’s been shipped off to –

Deepa: – Christian –

Cameron: – outdoor punishment camp?

Deepa: Outdoor punishment camp? I keep wanting to call conversion, but it's not, I don't think.

Cameron: I don’t think it is.

Deepa: But it's still in that vein of, like, turning you into a different person who does – you know?

Cameron: It's “building character” –

Deepa: Ugh.

Cameron: – is the worst phrase, yeah.

Deepa: Ugh. Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. Building character.

Deepa: Gross.

Cameron: Yeah. And it's it is sad that, like, the first time Emily talks to Maya, it's already like, oh, she's far away, and maybe there's – like, you know?

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, they just – they tank that so quickly. And I wonder if it's because they thought that the actress who plays Maya isn’t coming back? Like, I wonder if she had to leave the show, and they were just like – I mean, to be fair, except I don't wanna be fair, but to create a parallel: Sean does disappear with the same speed, and Hanna immediately gets a new love interest.

Cameron: Yeah, but we don't care about Sean!

Deepa: We don’t care about Sean, and that is the difference! [both laugh]

Cameron: I guess, like, we do know that – oh my gosh! I'm forgetting the actress's name, for whatever reason, who plays Maya – but she's been in everything, so maybe she did have to go do something, right? Like she has been in so many things.

Deepa: She…may have had to go to Teen Wolf, question mark?

Cameron: LOL. Bianca Lawson!

Deepa: Bianca Lawson, thank you! Thank you.

Cameron: Yeah, it took a sec.

Deepa: She wasn’t in that much of Teen Wolf. But she may have had to go to Teen Wolf, so maybe she does it and comes back. Maybe that’s what happens.

Cameron: Yeah. Because she’s been a teenager in every decade.

Deepa: Funnily enough, in Teen Wolf, a show with “teen” in the title, she does not play a teenager.

Cameron: Oh wow! Wow.

Deepa: She plays, like, a high school guidance counselor, or something. Like a normal thing for a late-twenties person. [both laugh] Then she comes back and plays a teen in Pretty Little Liars, so. She played a teen in Buffy, right? That’s how far back this goes?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: When she was maybe a teen?

Cameron: Potentially.

Deepa: Potentially. Okay.

Cameron: Yeah. So that's just a bummer that it's already just, like…yeah.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. Making the way for you-know-who.

Deepa: Mmm. Okay, well, let’s stay on Caleb for a little longer –

Cameron: Sorry, sorry! [both laugh]

Deepa: – before we start the complaining!

Cameron: Yes, okay. Caleb, we love you!

Deepa: What was your favorite Caleb moment from these episodes?

Cameron: I don't know. He has so many funny lines that are just – like when he's talking to Hanna, and she's like, “You don't know the first thing about me,” and he's like, “You don't know the first thing about you,” I was like yes, that's so corny, and I love it! [both laugh]

Deepa: My favorite line was when Hanna's like, “I have to catch Mrs. Montgomery before she gets to Philadelphia,” and he's like, “Why, do you want the better grade?” And she’s like, “No,” and he’s like, “What happens if she gets there?” and she’s like, “A whole bunch of people will be hurt!” And then he says, “Is Mrs. Montgomery running a terrorist cell?” [cracks up]

Cameron: That did make me laugh a lot! [both laugh]

Deepa: My notes literally have that quote and then just say, lmao Caleb I love youuuuuu. [laughs]

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: She does make it sound very dramatic. “A lot of people are gonna get hurt.”

Cameron: “A lot of people.” Literally, it doesn't even matter. And when it happens, only one person gets punched one time, it's really unfortunate.

Deepa: Ugh. Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: So, you know.

Deepa: I just love the whole detention scene, I think. It’s very fun.

Cameron: I just appreciate his observations and characterizations of Rosewood as a whole, like, “The pretty girls lie, and the rich girls steal…” like, Caleb, you're so funny.

Deepa: Caleb, Caleb. Well, I think – we'll be obviously getting a lot more of Caleb, and we'll probably keep talking about him throughout the episode. But I just wanted to start with that.

Cameron: Yeah, that's the most important thing that happened, I think. [both]

Deepa: So do we want to talk about Paige next?

Cameron: …sure.

Deepa: You brought her up. You brought her up.

Cameron: Ugh. Yeah, sure. We get the bob. And then we get the drowning, like, immediately.

Deepa: Immediately! Is that the same episode?

Cameron: No, it was the next episode.

Deepa: Oh, yes, but still in one episode – like, Paige’s introduction and the drowning happen in the same episode, I’m pretty sure.

Cameron: I think so, which is just bananas.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Because we’re supposed to buy this person as a love interest very soon, and that’s the immediate impression we get.

Cameron: Absolutely not!

Deepa: We get weird, like, trying to become captain of the swim team by bribing them. Then we get homophobia. Then we get drowning. I forgot about the homophobia plotline.

Cameron: Me too! I love Spencer, like, calling the manager about it though, basically being like, “Excuse me, swim team captain, I’d like to report a homophobia.” [both laugh] I think that's hilarious.

Deepa: It is hilarious! It is hilarious, oh my god.

Cameron: Like I don't know if that's a great thing to do, but I also don't know if calling both the person who was bullied and the bully to have a sit-down conversation is a great idea, coach.

Deepa: Yeah! Like, without anyone else there, you're just gonna conflict manage – what?

Cameron: That was wild.

Deepa: I don't think Spencer going to the coach without Emily knowing about it was a good idea, but Spencer has a good point that when people are bullies, they tend to bully more than one person, and Emily standing up for herself does not mean other people couldn't be bullied, right?

Cameron: Yeah. And then she tries to drown you!

Deepa: Exactly!

Cameron: I don't know! Like –

Deepa: Then she escalates. [both laugh] Because she's in love. Question mark.

Cameron: Oh, I just, like, can we – are we over that as a narrative? Right? Like as –

Deepa: Apparently not!

Cameron: Like, now, in – currently. Are we?

Deepa: Oh, like now in 2023? I don't think I've watched an American team drama in years, so I can't tell you, but I hope so.

Cameron: Damn it.

Deepa: I certainly hope so.

Cameron: Listeners, let us know.

Deepa: The last thing we watched was, like, Elite, and that’s not American, so.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: I haven’t watched, like, the new Gossip Girl.

Cameron: Do we have to do that as research?

Deepa: No, you know what, we watched Original Sin. I don't think that happens in Original Sin…question mark?

Cameron: I don't think so either.

Deepa: No, but we weren't that compelled by the romances in Original Sin, except for the one cute couple.

Cameron: Yeah, well, maybe we're past it.

Deepa: Hopefully.

Cameron: It's just so tired.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Yeah, but it was very much a thing, especially in media about gay teenagers in this time, like early 2010s to mid-2010s – like, I can think of a lot of similar examples.

Cameron: Glee.

Deepa: Glee for sure. [both laugh] Shameless, which I didn't actually hate it, but still there. Yeah. I do have written in my notes, “What's gay and homophobic at the same time? Paige McCullers!”

Cameron: Aaah! Paige McCullers! [both laugh] Oh my god, I just, like…she's just such a weird presence.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. [pauses] Say more.

Cameron: I don't have more! Like, is it just we're supposed to be like, “Ah yes, she's obviously conflicted about her identity”?

Deepa: Hmmm, oh okay.

Cameron: Like, what is this vibe? Like it’s just –

Deepa: Like what are we supposed to think at this point? Yeah. No, I think at this point we’re supposed to think that she’s a different type of mean girl. That’s the whole narrative, right, for the show?

Cameron: Ohhh.

Deepa: And bullies. I think because Spencer calls it bullying, we’re supposed to think about it like, yet another form of ways people are persecuted. And then, I guess once she gets fleshed out, it's supposed to be yet another reason why bullies aren’t who you think they are! I don't know.

Cameron: Ugh. Okay. [both laugh] So it’s teaching us lessons about bullying.

Deepa: Knock it off!

Cameron: [laughing] Knock it off. [both laugh]

Deepa: Yeah. Her bangs are terrible. I did have the memory that at one point, she and Sean go on a date?

Cameron: I think that's true.

Deepa: Sometime soon. So Sean is still in the show for a little bit.

Cameron: Like to a dance or something?

Deepa: Yeah, or, like, a group date.

Cameron: Yeah, I know what you’re thinking of.

Deepa: It’s after she and Emily have gotten together and broken up, or something, she’s trying to do the closeted thing…I don't know, but it does seem right for this energy of Paige’s that she’d try to go on a date with Sean.

Cameron: [laughs] So this is also, I think, the first time we get Emily swimming, right?

Deepa: Yes!

Cameron: In the show?

Deepa: Yeah, we’ve talked about it, but we haven’t seen it before.

Cameron: Which is funny! And also, I am confused about whether that is swim practice or PE, because Hanna was missing PE again. But I thought that was swim practice! I don't understand how school works.

Deepa: I think that was swim practice. I think that was, like, early in the morning – isn't that when swim practice usually happens, before school? At least in my high school it was.

Cameron: Like five a.m.

Deepa: Five a.m., swim practice. Then Hanna just happens to skip PE.

Cameron: Okay, those are different things.

Deepa: Those are different things, but we see them – I guess we see that the PE teacher is the same as the swim coach?

Cameron: Which makes sense, that does happen.

Deepa: Yeah, sure. It's a good question. I think I was confused by, number one: swim season and hockey season – I mean, I think there will be some overlap, but how long are they gonna overlap? Because hockey, I would assume, is a fall sport, and isn't swimming usually a winter sport?

Cameron: I think so?

Deepa: And I think there is some – I never did a winner sport – so I think there is a winter-fall overlap.

Cameron: Yeah, the fact that Ian is trying to poach Emily means that there’s still field hockey happening.

Deepa: That’s true, but it’s probably too late for her to letter, so why would she go? You know? Or, like, they’re probably almost in post-season – championships – so why would he change up their – yeah, that makes no sense.

Cameron: I think he’s probably a bad coach, that’s why. [both laugh]

Deepa: Emily’s like, “Of course I’m not gonna change now.”

Cameron: “For you?”

Deepa: Also. How does her being good at swimming mean she'd be good at field hockey? Those are – like, it's not even like soccer and field hockey.

Cameron: She’s a lesbian! [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh, yeah, Ian’s heard finally. Ian’s finally caught up on town gossip. [both laugh] Oh my god! I was very amused by the whole thing of, like, Emily having “checked out for the whole season so far, and now she's back”, because again, it has to be the beginning of the season, sort of, like, it’s not winter winter yet.

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: And number two, what does that even mean? Like.

Cameron: Sorry she's just good? I don't understand.

Deepa: I mean, also, things that happened to her that everyone knows about! One of her best friends’ body was just found in September…kind of makes sense that she would be a little out of it for a few months.

Cameron: Like those are big things that, yes, everyone knows about.

Deepa: Everyone knows about her and Maya; presumably everyone knows that Maya got shipped off. Like. So, yeah, lots of shit has gone down. They think she was attacked by Toby Cavanaugh at Homecoming! [both laugh] Cut her some slack!

Cameron: I think it’s okay she missed a few practices, or whatever we’re saying?

Deepa: Or came to practice but didn’t try hard enough to set a record during practice? I mean, I don’t really understand how swimming works – I don't know if setting records during practices is important, but.

Cameron: It seems less important, but. Yeah, now, she's just balling out. Sorry. 

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, we are going to get a swim meet, I think, in the next episode, if the preview is correct.

Cameron: That's good.

Deepa: Yeah. Which, until we watched another – okay, see, we watched a lot of teen shows last year, it's just they haven't been American. So we watched – a few years ago – the Netflix show Blood & Water –

Cameron: Ooh, yeah!

Deepa: – which is a South African teen show, not about murder, but about, like mystery, and –

Cameron: – deception –

Deepa: – and kidnapping, for sure, so like definitely something that I think of in the same kind of genre as this. They have a swim star, and swim meets, as a thing that you see on the show, which I think is the only two things I can think of, other than – well, I know there's a swimming anime that people are really into, but I haven’t seen that one – so, like, the three swimming shows I can think of.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't…

Deepa: It's a hard sport to film, to film being compelling. So if you're not – if you're not a sports show you probably...yeah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: There are swimming scenes in Elite too, but I think that's just because someone has to die in the pool.

Cameron: I was gonna say, is that because it’s the murder scene? [both laugh]

Deepa: The murder scene, exactly.

Cameron: That reminds me, is the swim meet where Caleb does his, like, networking?

Deepa: Yes!

Cameron: And Hanna talks him up to get his business? Yeah, okay, good.

Deepa: Exactly. He’s her date to swim meet, because that’s a thing. [both laugh]

Cameron: Okay. You brought up Sean, and so, Hanna getting dumped at dance-a-thon is a thing that exactly happened in Gilmore Girls?

Deepa: Really?

Cameron: Dean dumps Rory at a dance-a-thon –

Deepa: At a dance-a-thon, specifically?

Cameron: – that is very American-themed – like, Rory has victory roles. It's like – I don't know if it's “Let Freedom Ring” like it is in PLL, but.

Deepa: Oh, is that the theme? I was going to ask you what the theme was! Okay.

Cameron: It’s “Let Freedom Ring”.

Deepa: Ooooof.

Cameron: ‘cause it's to go to – you know, pay their trip to D.C.

Deepa: Oh, to D.C. Sorry. You’re making all the connections, thank you.

Cameron: I don't remember what the Stars Hollow Gilmore Girls fundraiser, I’m sure it was some nonsense, but so, Dean is dancing with Rory –

Deepa: Right.

Cameron: – and Jess is there just, like, spectating with his date, who Rory thinks is a huge slut.

Deepa: Of course. Rory. Wow.

Cameron: And she's just, like, so agitated at him being there, you know, like she's like, “Oh, he just won’t leave!” You know, behaving in a way that you're like, okay, come on. And so then Dean just breaks up with her at the dance! So I was just like, wowwww. [both laugh]

Deepa: That’s so funny!

Cameron: And I do see Caleb and Jess having some similarities – I didn't think about this too much, but I don't know, I just thought that was interesting. Break-up at the dance-a-thon!

Deepa: Break-up at the Americana dance-a-thon! I wonder if it’s a reference? Like, I wonder if it’s a callback. You know, that one seems like it very much could be. I'm sure people who worked on Gilmore Girls could have worked on PLL, writers or directors or anything. Interesting. I like that.

Cameron: I was just like, oh my gosh!

Deepa: I love that we just compared PLL to four entirely different teen dramas, only one of which is a spin-off of PLL! [both laugh]

Cameron: It’s our reference point! It’s, like, the center.

Deepa: It is. It is. It's the teen drama that I've watched the most of, absolutely, and, like, know the best. And, I think, was the biggest hit – out of the ones I’ve watched, obviously Gilmore Girls was a huge hit, but I haven't watched that much of it, so.

Cameron: I have seen all of it, unfortunately, including that revamping they did.

Deepa: I have also seen the revamping. I think I was just bored, and it was on Netflix, and I knew enough to watch it, you know. Anyway. Back to the dance!

Cameron: Sorry, I just had to go there.

Deepa: No, I'm glad you did, because, if anything, it cleared up that my questions about what the theme was – ‘cause I was just like, there's Obamas, and then there's Hillary, and then there's also TVs everywhere. And I was like, mass media? Hmm. Anyway. [laughs] Well, okay, I guess to go back a little bit. First of all, this is the episode where we get Alona Tal, who is – I think that's how you pronounce her name? – Alona Tal, who is –

Cameron: Oh, is that the actress?

Deepa: Yes, that’s the actress who plays…I forgot her PLL name.

Cameron: Simone.

Deepa: Simone! Thank you. Thank you. Which I just appreciate because I like her. But yeah, that whole plot line was very annoying and…blehhhhh.

Cameron: It just, like, feels so yucky that this is Aria's babysitter, right? Someone who, you know, watched Aria when she was even more of a child than she is now, and that's, like, the age-appropriate date for Aria's…whatever.

Deepa: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And the whole, like – when she gets upset about it, everything that she's saying is just reinforcing why it's fucked up, not, like, why – you know? That, plus – I don't want to get too bogged down another stuff, especially ‘cause I think there's not that much need to talk about compared to the last few times we've talked about it – but that whole episode, plus the scene in the beginning of the next episode, where she goes to invite him to the gallery opening just –

Cameron: Oh my god.

Deepa: – shows you how much they get off on the student-teacher thing! It's not in spite of the student-teacher thing –

Cameron: No!

Deepa: – it is supposed to be…it's fetishizing the student-teacher thing, right?

Cameron: Mhm.

Deepa: Aaaah! Terrible! Terrible! Yeah. Not really related: when Spencer is trying to intervene and keep Aria from confronting him in front of everyone – why is she allowed to dance with Ezra? She pulls him away, and is like, “We're allowed!” Why are you allowed to dance with teachers? That's weird.

Cameron: It's really weird.

Deepa: I don’t think that’s a thing.

Cameron: I'm sure she read the, like, handbook, though. [both laugh]

Deepa: Good point. Good point.

Cameron: I'm sure she knows! I don't think they should be allowed to dance with teachers.

Deepa: No!

Cameron: There's no reason.

Deepa: I did like that Spencer's entire role was to save people. Other than Hanna, there was no saving that situation. She just has to rescue Emily –

Cameron: – rescue Aria –

Deepa: – Aria’s being useless with Emily, even though she’s supposed to be helping. Like at least Emily has real problems!

Cameron: Yeah! She's wasted cause she's sad!

Deepa: She’s so sad! Her girlfriend got shipped off, and she just got to talk to her, and it wasn't what she was hoping it would be.

Cameron: It wasn’t great.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: I mean, speaking of the dance, should we talk about outfits of the dance?

Deepa: Yeah…

Cameron: Or you didn’t do outfits at the dance?

Deepa: I didn’t limit myself to outfits at the dance, I forgot. Sorry.

Cameron: [sighs] It’s okay.

Deepa: I can still talk about them!

Cameron: I tried, but I also have notes about the other episode.

Deepa: Okay, let’s start with the dance, and – yeah. Go ahead.

Cameron: So, Spencer’s dress is fucking heinous, per usual. It’s a bag. [both laugh]

Deepa: It’s like a burlap sack bag too!

Cameron: Yeah! Goddamnit.

Deepa: Was it even a dress, or was it a jumpsuit? It was a dress, right?

Cameron: I think it was a dress.

Deepa: I may have hated it a little less if it were a jumpsuit, but I don’t think we were in jumpsuit era yet in 2011, that’s more recent. Okay, yeah, no, it was bad. It was bad.

Cameron: It was bad. And I know that's what we expect, but every time, it’s like, really? Again?

Deepa: Someday, someday, Spencer is gonna prove us wrong, and it will be in the train episode.

Cameron: Yes, and that's an incredible outfit. [both laugh] I think my favorite dance dress was Aria’s.

Deepa: I…sort of agree too. I was back and forth on Hanna's, on whether I liked it or not.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I don't know, it – [sighs] I feel like I should like it, but I kind of didn't like it enough.

Cameron: Hanna's?

Deepa: No – oh, yeah, Hanna’s. Aria’s was – I thought Aria’s was fine. I didn’t think it was special, either, it was just, like, the most – the one that I had the least objections to.

Cameron: Maybe that’s why I submitted it.

Deepa: Yeah. [both laugh]

Cameron: I was just like, oh, that’s nice. It did have a thing in the back where it kind of looked like an ice-skating outfit?

Deepa: Yes! Because it looked like there was a leotard or something?

Cameron: I didn’t appreciate that.

Deepa: That was weird. That was definitely weird. I think she also just looked really pretty generally? Like, I think her hair and her makeup are really good. That was more what I was thinking about than the dress itself. And the dress looked fine, so it worked.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I don't know why I am struggling to figure out whether I liked or hated Hanna’s dress, to be honest.

Cameron: I thought it was fine, like I was like, meh, you know? It's fine. I just like couldn’t give it –  I had “Hanna question mark”, but it wasn't – it didn’t go past – yeah.

Deepa: I liked that it was colorful and patterned, because everyone else’s wasn’t. Yeah, but I didn’t love it, so. I'm sorry I forgot to limit myself to dance.

Cameron: It’s okay.

Deepa: That should be our rule for dances and Halloween episodes.

Cameron: It's all good. [both laugh]

Deepa: Except for the whole horrible Halloween episode. I don't really want to talk about outfits for that one. We'll have to talk about the shitty stuff, but not in terms of fashion, if that makes sense.

Cameron: Great. That does make sense.

Deepa: I didn't really have a whole lot of – I mean, I had a lot of outfit notes, but not a lot of conclusions.

Cameron: Great.

Deepa: Shall I just tell you them?

Cameron: Hit me.

Deepa: Okay. I loved Spencer's tie, which I always love, but I didn't like the rest of that outfit in the first episode. It's very, like, buttoned up, and she has like – she has, like, a sweater, maybe, and the jacket over it, I really didn't like. So that kind of ruined that outfit for me, even though it had a tie and a cool braid crown, which I wanted to like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Spencer had a couple of really good hairdos, like braid over the top of her head things, which were really nice really nice. I liked Hanna's leather jacket with a sequined top in the first episode? With a black leather jacket? It was cute. But I actually gave best outfit to Emily's very normal outfit in the second episode, but because it was wearing the scarf that Maya give her.

Cameron: Awwww, yeah.

Deepa: So. And she looked nice in it.

Cameron: That’s fair.

Deepa: Worst – I had three Aria contenders –

Cameron: [laughs] Three!

Deepa: Three! Third was the dress with flowers that she wears at the end when she's talking to Ella that has peplum in it.

Cameron: Bleh. Blehhhh.

Deepa: Terrible. Terrible.

Cameron: It’s so bad.

Deepa: Two is Aria has a plaid coat that should look fine, but it's, like, weirdly bulky, or it was buttoned weirdly, or something? It was just so strange, and it looked like it was just too – like a foot-worth of plaid from her skin to the end of the plaid coat. I don't know. [both laugh] My least favorite one was in episode 14, Aria has an outfit with a black – a white t-shirt with, like, a black heart sewn onto it, but not all over and suspenders, and I hate it because the suspenders could have been good, but with the black heart, I didn't like it.

Cameron: Fair. Yeah, you were – something was taken from you.

Deepa: Exactly! Exactly. I love suspenders. I miss wearing suspenders. [both laugh]

Cameron: Spencer also, again, wore a fugly hat, which we talked about last week, or last episode.

Deepa: She did. It’s true. Yeah, and she wears it to, like, go see Jason on the bleachers when he’s all sweaty and it’s just like – [laughs]

Cameron: She looks like she’s trying to be, what, an explorer? [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh no!

Cameron: It was so funny!

Deepa: Oh no, was it a weird orientalist hat? I didn't think about that.

Cameron: Oh, I wasn't thinking about that. I thought more just like a…I don’t know. Reversing the – yeah.

Deepa: Okay. Okay. It was like a sun hat, right?

Cameron: I think so. Maybe. It was bad.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: We still don’t get – we still have business Jason.

Deepa: We do still have – I think this is the last time we get business Jason.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: But I don't think we get lesbian Jason until season two at the earliest. [both laugh]

Cameron: Damn!

Deepa: Yeah. I think he just doesn't show up.

Cameron: I forget you says this, but someone says, “Ashley ran into Jason at the bank.” [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh no. Sparks flew!

Cameron: And I was like oh my god!

Deepa: Ashley!

Cameron: So that made me tee-hee.

Deepa: Probably the last time they’ll interact until Season 5 or whatever! [laughs] Speaking of Ashley and chaos. They are still $50,000 short? That's how much – that's more than how much money she stole? What?

Cameron: …aah?

Deepa: I guess that makes sense, because that is how much you would need to make a dent on your mortgage, I guess, but like. Fifty-five…I don't have a good sense of how bills stack well enough to understand how you could have $50,000 in a safety deposit box. I know they're $100 bills, but still.

Cameron: But still, they were all in her purse, too, which seems like it shouldn't be that much, but.

Deepa: Yeah! Yeah. I guess $50,000 is just five hundred bills, but. That still seems like a lot. Five hundred $100 bills? Am I doing math right?

Cameron: I don't know. [both laugh]

Deepa: No, I think I'm doing math right. I also love that Hanna's version of lasagna box money is popsicle books.

Cameron: Popsicle box money! Like, totally different.

Deepa: Also. How does she plan on giving the money to Ashley? Was she just gonna like – ‘cause at this point it's not like they need the money for groceries and stuff, so she can't just go buy groceries all the time and use it that way. She has to give it to Ashley, until they find out that Mrs. Potter’s dead.

Cameron: Well, she found it – last time, she said she found it in the bathroom. [both laugh]

Deepa: I know, but how many times can she find it in the bathroom?

Cameron: I don’t know.

Deepa: Ashley was so sad that episode. It made me really feel for her.

Cameron: I know. She was so sad she was making pancakes.

Deepa: She was making pancakes! Carbs! Making carbs! That level of sad. She was just curled up in a chair in the kitchen in the dark when Hanna came down for breakfast.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And then the scene where Hanna goes to the bank is very sweet. And also just ridiculous, because Ashley! You’re so chaotic!

Cameron: So chaotic. Who did you give our parents awards to?

Deepa: I gave best to Ashley even though she was chaotic.

Cameron: Same.

Deepa: Because she was also, like, a good mom! Like the speech she gave Hanna about how she'll always protect her and be there for her. It was really sweet. And I could – I just couldn't give it to Ella. I'm sorry. She –

Cameron: She made out with Byron.

Deepa: She made out with Byron! Ew!

Cameron: Gross!

Deepa: So gross. That was a choice, Ella. [both laugh] You could have gone to a gallery opening. You could make out with your ex-husband anytime! Not that I want you to.

Cameron: No, but, like, literally anytime.

Deepa: I did give worse to Byron. Like.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: He was also annoying in the dance episode, like – he was just annoying the whole time.

Cameron: He told Ella, “You walked out on me, remember?” What the fuck! You cheated on her! I don't know.

Deepa: “You walked out on me.” Oh my god! See, that's – I was thinking about this. We talked about this when Ella mo ves out, the whole narrative that because Ella left, she's the one who did something wrong. It's so weird, so weird. It's just because Byron was too much of a shit to leave.

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: And I guess it's because Ella didn't, like, take the kids with her, which is what I guess – like, parents who are leaving someone sometimes do? But I don't know. That seems hard, too, like you're not – they're not like trying to escape Byron as a parent, exactly, right? She just doesn't wanna be in this marriage anymore. I was thinking ahead of when Veronica leaves Peter, eventually, she does take Spencer with her, and they, like, live out of hotel room for a while. But that makes sense to me, given everything that Peter’s done.

Cameron: [cackles] Peter!

Deepa: [laughing] Peter.

Cameron: What a guy!

Deepa: I think that Jason does know about Peter being his dad at this point.

Cameron: Okay. Interesting.

Deepa: Yeah. I just – I think he does know. I have no reason for this, other than that I like the spin it gives to his scenes with Spencer, because for some reason Spencer is the only one he talks to.

Cameron: Yeah. So he's like trying to be like, hmm, are we? Are we potentially related?

Deepa: I mean, he apologizes to her, that seems big.

Cameron: That's true. He did apologize.

Deepa: Mhm, he says he was a jerk. Yeah, while he's doing the laps on the high school bleachers. I don't know, new Jason wouldn't do laps on the high school bleachers.

Cameron: No! He drinks beer on the porch.

Deepa: Aww, he does, that’s true! And his hair flops over his eyes. [both laugh] He also does photography.

Cameron: Photography, oh god. Yeah, he does do photography.

Deepa: Or, wait, does he do photography? Because –

Cameron: Too many people do photography, I think, in this show.

Deepa: You know what, I think he doesn’t do photography. He was developing Alison’s photos. But Alison does photography.

Cameron: Right. He just made that weird sketchy shed the darkroom? Did he do that?

Deepa: Yes, and he developed his sister’s super-gay photos of Aria.

Cameron: [laughs] Yeah, of her sleeping?

Deepa: [laughing] Yeah! Never addressed, never addressed that Alison took photos of Aria sleeping. That when we think they are Jason, are supposed to be creepy and sexual, but as soon as it’s Alison, we don’t talk about it.

Cameron: We don’t talk about them also maybe being creepy and sexual. Oh my gosh.

Deepa: Oh my god. Ian did not bring Melissa as a chaperone date, so I guess that's not a thing even in Rosewood. But then again, Simone did show up kind of to be a chaperone date, so.

Cameron: Anyone just goes to a school dance just to hang out. It's real weird.

Deepa: It's the…I don't know. It's, like, the place to be, I guess. That’s really sad?

Cameron: Ugh!

Deepa: Can’t you all go to the Apple Rosewood grill and hang out there instead?

Cameron: Yeah, they have, like, sprigs of rosemary in mason jars, you know. That seems nice.

Deepa: It does seem nice. Go to the – go to the bar that, like, Emily's cousin works at. [both laugh]

Cameron: Right. Yeah. They can sneak you in. Or you wouldn't have to get snuck in because you're an adult.

Deepa: Because you're an adult! Exactly. I had a question, which is, where is Mona? Mona has not been in either of these episodes, and I was sad about it. Unless you count the A scenes at the very end, which I guess we have to. But that doesn't count for me, ‘cause I want to see her face.

Cameron: Yeah, it's weird we didn't get a Mona in a dress.

Deepa: Exactly, Mona at the dance. Yeah. You know, we get Mona picking up a black jacket and scarves. Not scarves, gloves from Ella.

Cameron: Which is fun.

Deepa: Very fun, very fun.

Cameron: Yes, and, like, harassing old ladies who bead – 

Deepa: – but who think that her eyes are interesting.

Cameron: Yeah, she’s too busy for school right now. She’s just gone.

Deepa: I guess so. Maybe they have figured out that Mona is A in their writing, and so are like, we need to not have her appearance contradict with anything else that we are making her do for these episodes.

Cameron: Boo.

Deepa: I was probably giving them too much credit. They probably just couldn't get Janel Parrish for these episodes.

Cameron: Oh my gosh!

Deepa: I do love Mona buying the bracelets under Spencer's name. Classic. Classic A.

Cameron: It’s so funny. Oh, it's so good!

Deepa: Spencer’s shocked face. They're so bad at this right now! And I know that when they get better, A will still outwit them. But even in the opening scene in episode 14, when they're looking at the video and they have the laptop open when Ian walks in…you know that he lives here. You know that he could come in at any time. You could have gone to Spencer's room, you could have been like – anything. Come on. And then they just act so tense when he’s around.

Cameron: Yeah. And I think they've been watching it over and over and over, right? Is what it sounded like. So they've just been spending a good chunk of time in the, yeah, the middle of the TV? The middle kitchen and living room where he lives.

Deepa: Where he lives! Where he lives. It's very silly. They are terrible at this. And yeah. And then they don't back up the video, and then they don't – then the laptop gets stolen. And all those things. So.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: They're honestly not gonna get that much better. Like, they'll get – they'll get better when they have people like Caleb and Mona on their team.

Cameron: That are like, “What are you doing?” Ooh sorry. I had a Sean thought – at the dance, of course – when he's like, you know, she wants to dance with Lucas for charity or whatever, basically, she says – He was like, “You wanna donate to a charity? You should try to save a whale.” Which is rude!

Deepa: So rude, absolutely!

Cameron: So mean. I was just like, excuse me?

Deepa: No, it’s ridiculous. Sean is a dick. Extremely rude. Goodbye Sean.

Cameron: Goodbye Sean.

Deepa: Go date Paige, I guess.

Cameron: Should we talk about the picture that A gives them?

Deepa: Yeah. I love how Spencer’s like, “It has to be Ali cause she's in that top – like of course it's Ali.” You have no idea.

Cameron: EVERYONE wore that top.

Deepa: Everyone wore that heinous top. You have no idea. It might still be you, but you don't actually know that for sure. Yeah, the whole, like, Spencer – I think I struggled with remembering how this goes down the last time we watched it as well. Spencer has this little plotline where she had a fight with Ali just before Ali disappeared. so she feels guilty about that, because she said things like, “I wish you were dead,” blah blah blah. But then Spencer maybe also thinks she killed Ali?

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: And definitely, Melissa thinks she killed Ali, but I don't remember when that goes down and why? Is it when they find the hockey stick?

Cameron: I think the hockey stick kind of confirms, but it's like the one Spencer – it's like, “Spencer's aggressive.” And there's something about drugs?

Deepa: Yeah, there’s her whole addiction plotline, of her being on meds that summer.

Cameron: So like, I think that's supposed to  be like, “Oh, she was on meds, so she did a murder.”

Deepa: Yeah, okay.

Cameron: I’m not saying it makes sense.

Deepa: No. Of course it doesn’t make sense. I was just trying to remember why that comes up twice in different ways, kind of. Because, like, that's not this like – I don't think Spencer right now thinks she actually killed Ali, she just feels guilty about – but wait! Isn't the hockey stick actually swung by Garrett? Like Garret and Jenna are there, and he swings a hockey stick at the tree –

Cameron: Alison!

Deepa: – at Alison! And then she's alive, but she tells him – she puts a finger to tell him not to tell Jenna, so that Jenna will think she's dead? I don't understand. It makes no sense.

Cameron: I mean, we revisit this night constantly, so we're always getting, like, little sprinkles of information, like, it's not, you know. And we've watched it so many times. But I still have no idea about so many things.

Deepa: Yeah, it's it is astonishing. Like, I think I – we talked about this before on the podcast, but we also rewatch the first season of How To Get Away With Murder a lot, and that one I feel like I have pretty down like plot-wise. Maybe because we only rewatch the first season. But PLL – we're halfway through it and I am still lost. I think it's because in How To Get Away With Murder, it is actually a different structure. There is a murder in the first season that then spurs a bunch more murders; it’s not that you're unraveling a past mystery, you know. So I guess that is a different approach.

Cameron: And you're, like – they do kind of tricky things with time, but you're always aware of where we are in relation to the thing that happened in the future or past, right? Like “three months before” that. Or, you know.

Deepa: Yeah. And they give you some answers much sooner, right? Like they do a better job of spacing out some reveals that actually make sense – like you get an answer to who killed Lila in the first season. You just don’t get answers to why. Okay, okay.

Cameron: How To Get Away With Murder, what a show!

Deepa: What a first season! Possibly one of the best first seasons.

Cameron: It's so good, listeners. If you haven't watched it, you need to watch it.

Deepa: Just watch the first season, mostly. Like you might need to go a little bit into the second season, because there's important stuff with Eve.

Cameron: Oh, yeah, there's –

Deepa: Not important plot stuff.

Cameron: Just important bisexual stuff!

Deepa: What do you think of the conversation between Ali and Spencer? The, you know, “I made you, and I made all of you,” all of that.

Cameron: I don't know, like, I think she quote-unquote  “made” Hanna.

Deepa: Yes.

Cameron: I don't know that she made Spencer. Like I think she maybe made Spencer cooler, but, like, I don't...

Deepa: I think she definitely made them all cooler, because I think they were in their pigeonholes. Right?

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah.

Deepa: But yeah. I like the way that Spencer reversed it on her, you know, to be like, “What is a leader without the followers?”

Cameron: Did you do any historical analysis for us? Or do you draw the line after literary analysis?

Deepa: I did do historical analysis, but not on this. How would you do historical analysis on this?

Cameron: You know, like, “What’s a bully? How do you stand up to a bully?” in class.

Deepa: Oh, yes! No, I have analysis of that scene!

Cameron: Fantastic.

Deepa: So the scene where Ella is teaching history – I guess she is a history teacher and not an English teacher.

Cameron: She fills in where they need her.

Deepa: She’s talking about appeasement by Neville Chamberlain, the prime minister of the U.K. before World War II, appeasing Hitler. I mean, my only literary analysis is that, like, Spencer's answer is shit. The question is not – the question that Ella asks is, “Why didn't appeasement work?” And Spencer's answer is, “Because giving into a bully never works.” And I was like, sure. But that's not a history class answer, like – your history class answer is to, like, contextualize this in terms of the rise of fascism in Germany, like, you know? It's not just like a general answer about bullies? Hitler wasn't a bully. He was a genocidal, like – [laughs] So that was my historical analysis: I think it's a horrible metaphor for bullying.

Cameron: I think our main conclusion is that PLL definitely understands bullying. Everything is bullying. [both laugh]

Deepa: Fascism is not bullying, I’m sorry. It just isn’t. Fascism is fascism! What the fuck, Ella? Not what the fuck Ella, what the fuck Spencer? But then again, I guess Spencer doesn’t understand the Russian Revolution.

Cameron: “A revolution, according to Oxford English Dictionary.”

Deepa: I love that you pegged that I would have historical analysis.

Cameron: I was excited.

Deepa: I was pissed. [both laugh]

Cameron: I was just like, I don't need to write about that. Deepa’s got that.

Deepa:  Oh man, yeah, I am here for any historical analysis we need. I don't know when else it will come up, but.

Cameron: Thank you.

Deepa: Bullies in history. Ugh. Ugh. Horrible framing! Wow. Horrible. Horrible! I don't have a real literary analysis, but I do have a literary note, maybe?

Cameron: Ooh!

Deepa: The only literary reference we get is that Simone tells Aria, “When you're big, published writer, make sure to mention me and how I made you turn off The O.C. and read Wuthering Heights,” and then Aria is like, “Actually, it was The Exorcist.” My note is that Wuthering Heights sucks and you should definitely watch The O.C. over it. I hate Wuthering Heights. Granted, I read it as a teenager and have not reread it. But I hated it. It was so difficult to get through, and that was in my era of thinking that I needed to read the quote-unquote “classics” for the sake of reading the classics, and I still struggled so hard.

Cameron: It was one of the quote-unquote “classics” we had to read –

Deepa: Oh no.

Cameron: – first year in undergrad. And I did not read it.

Deepa: In undergrad. I hate that. For what class?

Cameron: Core.

Deepa: Did you not read it?

Cameron: I didn't. I didn't used to read. It’s so weird, or, like, I don't know –

Deepa: It wasn’t fantasy or sci fi, so I thought maybe you read it.

Cameron: No. I just, like, am so much of a better student now, I don't know.

Deepa: Reading is your job now.

Cameron: Reading is my whole job.

Deepa: Reading and being a student is your job now.

Cameron: It’s just funny. I don't know. So I don't have a hot Wuthering Heights take.

Deepa: It's just all like caught up in this very toxic-slash-abusive romance that I don't care about. That is an incredibly simplistic and reductive way to put it, and probably, Wuthering Heights fans will be very annoyed at that. But that's what I took away from it, and I hated it. So definitely watch The OC or read The Exorcist. I guess maybe The Exorcist book is better than the movie? We didn't like –

Cameron: The movie is so boring.

Deepa: I know it’s a horror classic, but we did not love it.

Cameron: Yeah, we did not.

Deepa: Maybe the book is less boring. I don’t know.

Cameron: So Spencer is making Emily just eat dinner or pizza at like 4:30, and I was like, “Ah, lockdown.” [both laugh] Feeling – just having dinner at, like, 5pm.

Deepa: Sometimes deciding we're done with work at like 3pm, and immediately ordering pizza. Which then, when we later got to, like – at one point, you know, you had to go back to the office, and would come home at, I guess, a normal time, and then we would try to order pizza then, and we would realize that when you order pizza like 5:30pm, it takes a lot longer to get there than when you order it at 3pm or 4pm. We have like, wait an hour and a half for it!

Cameron: Yeah, that made me laugh.

Deepa: One way in which I am not a planner, and especially like Spencer, is that I'm not a planner at eating. I mean – I'm sorry. That's not true. I'm a planner at scheduling when to eat, but I'm not someone who's like, I need to eat ahead of doing something to go do it, you know? ‘cause she's, like, getting Emily to choke down pizza when Emily doesn't want to eat yet, cause she's like, “We gotta go do this thing.” I don't think I do that. I do plan cooking – that is, I plan what we should eat, which I get from my father. But I don't think I'm usually like, “We're gonna leave the house for two hours, you gotta eat something.”

Cameron: I feel like that would usually be me. I feel like – I’m very much like, “I gotta –”

Deepa: “– gotta eat, gotta pee, gotta put on sunscreen –”

Cameron: “– gotta have a snack.” Yeah, sunscreen is a process.

Deepa: I mean, I'm glad Spencer was eating, frankly.

Cameron: It's very exciting.

Deepa: Actually, I guess Spencer eats more than the other Hastings, because usually they make their snide comments when they come upon her eating, or proposing to eat.

Cameron: I am glad she didn't eat the half-sandwich Ian offered her, though.

Deepa: Did he think a half- sandwich was a good bribe to keep her quiet about their history?

Cameron: AHHHH.

Deepa: You are terrible at this, dude!

Cameron: He’s like, “Well it’s better than nothing.” Like what?

Deepa: So I was thinking, though, in that scene and – both that scene and when Spencer briefly dances with him at the dance – I think that they're either retracting or forgot about their statement that Spencer and Ian had a quote-unquote  “relationship”, because they do talk about it as if it was just one kiss, right?

Cameron: But it wasn't. But yeah, it's very confusing.

Deepa: I think we should treat it as just one kiss, because in the scene where Ian says, “What do they know?”, all she says is, “They know we kissed, they know about us, they know we kissed.” But presumably, if you were in a relationship, you kissed a lot.

Deepa: I think the relationship thing was just, like…

Cameron: An accident?

Deepa: Yes, a mistake.

Cameron: A mistake from the writers?

Deepa: Yes. Yes .

Cameron: Okay. I mean, I would like to believe that they didn’t date, because that’s disgusting.

Deepa: It’s disgusting, and it doesn’t make sense for how they interact now. Like they act like people who had something, but not a whole – not like people who talked to each other, presumably. Yeah, like they were like quote-unquote  “seeing each other”, but not having sex – because of course, they weren't having sex – like what else were they doing?

Cameron: They never have sex.

Deepa: And if they weren't kissing that often, like.

 Cameron: What were they doing? Talking? Those two? Okay, good point.

Deepa:  I don't know. It just doesn't make any sense otherwise to me, especially because he was also definitely hooking up with Ali more than once. Like how many teenage girls does he need to abuse at a time? Come on.

Cameron: Okay. When he said – when Spencer's like, “Why are you here? And why aren’t you hanging out with Melissa?”, he’s like, “I'm more comfortable here,” or, “I used to be.” And I was just – I put, “with teens!”

Deepa: “With teens!” Oh my god. Oh, no!

Cameron: Exclamation mark. Like, what are you fucking talking about?

Deepa: Oh my god, that's so funny.

Cameron: You love being around teens!

Deepa: Jesus! He's so gross. Yeah, as if hanging out with her business school friends – like “he's just more down-to-earth”. He's like the preppiest motherfucker in this place. Of course he could go hang out with business students. He probably was one.

Cameron: I – yeah, I don't. I don't get that.Deepa: It doesn't make any sense. He goes to Hilton Head. [laughs] To get abortions.

Cameron: Everyone gets an abortion at Hilton Head. It was their two-for-one package.

Deepa: Oh my gosh. Wow, wow. So there's a long running question that we've had, but I don't think we'll get answered, but maybe we should pose it to our listeners and see what they think. All of our listeners, who are going to write to us. Clearly. You have our email. Yes: did Mona kill Mrs. Potter? Right? To get Hanna out of trouble, you know.

Cameron: She loves Hanna.

Deepa: She loves Hanna. Only she's allowed to mess with Hanna.

Cameron: That's true.

Deepa: Only she's allowed to hit Hanna with a car. [both laugh] And it's just too convenient, right? She has a heart attack, you know, she – yeah, she was old, but she looked pretty sprightly when she came before. I just think that Mona might have killed Mrs. Potter.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Alternatively, Hanna could have killed Mrs. Potter. It does seem less likely to me. Maybe that’s what Mona was off doing these episodes! She was off planning a murder, and she needed time.

Cameron: This is her first one, right?

Deepa: Even Mona needs a little bit of preparation. She's still just, like, a sixteen-year-old, even though she’s a genius.

Cameron: Oh my god. You answered our question. All of our questions. Yeah. Just gotta do some research, some planning. Fantastic. I like it. She barely had time to go to the dance!

Deepa: Sure, she just had to sneak in at the end.

Cameron: Oh, I love that.

Deepa: Did Hanna get her money at the dance?

Cameron: Yeah, it fell out of a scarf in her pocket. Or was, like, bundled with a scarf in her pocket. It didn’t make sense.

Deepa: Yeah. Okay, That was the main thing Mona was there to do.

Cameron: Do we have to talk about the date at the museum? Briefly. Just say it happened, and we hate it?

Deepa: Sure.

Cameron: Great.

Both: It happened, and we hate it.

Deepa: I just – I don't know that there's much more to say, right? But there wasn't – there weren't any new dynamics, or – I will say that we get two episodes now, sort of close to each other, where Aria goes and actually tries to comfort Hanna about something, or talk to Hanna about something, and immediately turns it into something about Ezra, right? Like she is just – that's her entire focus to the entire show. We talk about this a lot, you and I – I don't know if we talked about on the podcast – but her entire focus throughout the whole show is prioritizing Ezra and what he wants or needs, except for the few episodes where she's broken up with him, here and there. And –

Cameron: It just sucks, like I – it's not like – I mean, I think that's a lot of his fault, right? Because he's abusing her and grooming her and things. But it just sucks.

Deepa: It just sucks.

Cameron: Yeah, to like – for that to be your friend, right?

Deepa: And it's so – it makes it so clear that that's what's happening right? He is taking over her entire life, and isolating her from her friends in a way that is different than – in a way that's not always easy to see, because she's not technically isolated from her friends. She is doing things with them all the time. But she's not necessarily confiding in them, even now that they know about Ezra. There are – I just said a Canadian “about”, wow!

Cameron: That's not even my fault.

Deepa: That’s not your fault. I'm not Canadian. [laughs] Like, I think later, there's a point at which they break up and then get back together, and she's lying to them about that. She just doesn't necessarily tell them all the time. And she, yeah, prioritizes him. And not only that, he is the – he is the main love interest who gets to know about what they're all doing first.

Cameron: Ew, I hate that. 

Deepa: Which is especially bad given his book! That's exactly what he wants to know.

Cameron: That’s his whole M.O.

Deepa: I'm pretty sure he's the love interest who gets to find out about A first. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm pretty sure. So it goes both ways, right, like she isn't confiding in her friends as much, but is confiding in Ezra, about them, even.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: So the power dynamic is just very clear. And not clear to the fucking show, or clear that they don't care.

Cameron: They don’t care.

Deepa: And I guess in this episode that conversation had to turn to Ezra because the thing Hanna is conflicted about is, like, messing up things with Aria and Ezra. Still, that just is what Aria does. And that's – and the show does that by only giving her plot lines that really have to do with Ezra, right?

Cameron: Yeah, completely.

Deepa: She has some family stuff. And then, Ezra stuff. That's pretty much it. So.

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah, just their conversation, Hanna and Aria’s – I was just like, “Oh my god!” Like she's just like, “There's so many things that, if I would have let it, Ezra and I would be history right now.” I'm like, please!

Deepa: Do it.

Cameron: Do it.

Deepa: Yeah. But she will not. He will not. Oh yeah, in the future, when she has to write a college essay, and she writes it about how she spent her entire teenage years being, like – she doesn't say groomed, but essentially being groomed by this adult, and she lost out on her teenage years, blah blah blah: it’s all true!

Cameron: It’s fucking true! It’s not a lie that you –

Deepa: – made up to get into college.

Cameron: No! That’s what happened to you. It’s very sad.

Deepa: And then what she’s mostly afraid of is Ezra finding out, and being hurt by that, right? That’s what is her concern is – Ezra’s feelings being hurt by that.

Cameron: And the way that Uber A, or Double A, or Maximum A, at the end convinces her to join the A Team is because – isn't it because of the police report she filled out at some point against Ezra as, like, a way to get back at him because she was feeling mad about him? But like, that's a – I don't know.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, this thing that he actually did, that she had a right to want justice for, which – police justice wouldn't be justice, but the fact that that's used to blackmail her is ridiculous.

Cameron: Is ridiculous. Yeah, I just feel so bad for her. And like. Yeah, which fucking sucks.

Deepa: It fucking sucks and, like, nobody else is gonna see it either, you know? Her parents are gonna find out soon, and they're immediately gonna, like, befriend Ezra. It's so fucking weird. I guess they befriend Ezra before they find out, and then Byron tries to get him sent away. But that's the only good thing Byron ever does, is try to –

Cameron: – gets him a job in New Orleans.

Deepa: – gets him a job running a school, or something like that. First of all, gets him a job at a college, when he doesn't seem to have a master’s degree. 

Cameron: We don't think he has a master’s degree, definitely not a PhD. 

Deepa: Even if he has a master's, he just finished it. So, like, how is he teaching? Right? Then gets him an even better job in New Orleans, and that's supposed to be this, like, big –

Cameron: The worst thing.

Deepa: – the worst thing that's happened, just, trying to split them up. Oh my god! Bleh. Blehhh.

Cameron: Gross gross gross. But like you said, no new insights there. No new things there. Just the same bullshit.

Deepa:  I mean, I don't think we've talked about the way it plays out in Aria’s friendships, and that’s also going to be a theme that keeps coming up. Yeah, and it is hard to hold. Or – it’s not hard to hold, I guess. We have to hold that all that all of this is happening to her as a teenager. It's not her fault that is happening to her, and that it causes these dynamics and her friendships that are also real, you know, of her prioritizing her abuser over other people. Hmm. Ugh! Do we have something happier to end on?

Cameron: Probably?

Deepa: Probably? Do you have another good Caleb quip written down? I didn’t write down so many of his quips.

Cameron: Yeah, I do. I do. So Emily is trying to get him to do the phone hacking or fixing thing, and he was like, “I'm on it,” you know. She just wants to talk to Maya, so she's like, “Can you do it quicker?”, and he's like, “Ehhh,” and then she's like, “Okay, how about for forty more dollars? Would you be able to do it like a quicker?” And he's like, “Let me put it this way: yes.” And that I found very charming.

Deepa: Charming was exactly the word that came to mind for me. Caleb!

Cameron: Striking a hard bargain.

Deepa: “Let me put it this way.” Absolutely. I love him. I love him. He's so good. [laughs] Well, I have a recipe for today.

Cameron: Great!

Deepa: But I have to go get it, so I’ll be right back.

Cameron: Wow, okay, I’ll entertain the listeners while you're gone? [singing] Woo woo woo woo woo.

Deepa: Okay. So I lied: it's not just a recipe, it's a special guest!

Cameron: Oh my gosh!

Deepa: So my dad is here.

Cameron: Welcome!

Deepa: He made a new chickpea recipe recently that he is going to describe for us, and we will put the actual recipe in the show notes.

Deepa’s Dad: So this is a chickpea recipe that was described as a Middle Eastern thing – I don't know if it is or not, but anyway. It requires a can of garbanzo beans; and some cherry tomatoes, about a pint; olive oil; garlic; thinly sliced onions; and salt and hot pepper to taste. And you just mix all of these things together, put it on a sheet pan, and roast it for 30 to 35 min at 400 degrees [Fahrenheit]. It just came out really well.

Cameron: Nice!

Deepa: You also put honey, right?

Deepa’s Dad: I put honey – they asked for one tablespoon, but I put only one-third, I put one teaspoon instead of one tablespoon, and I think it was too sweet. Next time I would probably leave the honey out and just use the hot pepper. And I also – they said you can modify the recipe, so I just added a teaspoon of cumin powder, ground cumin, and also garam masala. [all laugh] I don't know if it came out – my mouth – I don't know if you could see, I was spitting out the saliva. My mouth is watering thinking about it. [all laugh]

Cameron: I’m glad that’s on the record.

Deepa:  I will say, I liked the sweetness. So I think that’s –

Deepa’s Dad: Oh, wait a minute! Sorry, feta cheese!

Cameron: Feta cheese! That’s important.

Deepa’s Dad: Yeah, it's got to be sheep feta cheese, because it's got more fat. And you cut it into small cubes or strips and put it on that, and just bake it for at 400 degrees Fahrenheit for 30 to 35 min.

Cameron: So the feta gets baked as well?

Deepa’s Dad: Oh yeah. That’s the main component. I’m sorry, I completely forgot the feta.

Cameron: That changes it entirely.

Deepa’s Dad: I’m sorry, I forgot about it, but the feta is important. It’s got to be sheep feta, not cow, because cow feta apparently doesn’t have enough fat. Sheep milk has more fat, and it doesn’t burn and, you know, it nicely roasted.

Deepa: It got, like, nicely brown. Okay.

Cameron: Thank you so much!

Deepa’s Dad: So you’ll post the recipe on the this thing?

Deepa: Yes.

Deepa’s Dad: And you can try it and tell us how it is. Honey is optional. So is cumin powder and garam masala are also optional. Because they said you can try various –

Deepa: Spices?

Deepa’s Dad: No, no, an…improvisation? I added cumin and garam masala, but you don't have to.

Cameron: Okay, that sounds yummy.

Deepa’s Dad: Alright, good.

Deepa: Thank you for coming on the pod.

Cameron: Thank you so much!

Deepa’s Dad: Bye!

Cameron: Bye! [both laughing] That was amazing.

Deepa: I will say, I liked the sweetness. So if you like the mix of sweetness and savory, I would put the honey, but probably not a full tablespoon, because it was pretty sweet. But, yeah. I have not been cooking, but my dad made this, so.

Cameron: Wow! Our first guest.

Deepa: Were you surprised?

Cameron: I was surprised! I thought, you gonna go get a recipe. I trusted you.

Deepa: I lied.

Cameron: I love that.

Deepa: We have to lie at some point. It's a podcast about Pretty Little Liars.

Cameron: “It's what keeps us close.”

Deepa: “A good lie is” – what is it? Oh, no. “A good lie sometimes…” What is the quote?

Cameron: “Sometimes you're better off with a really good lie.” Yeah. Oh, wow! That was very special. Thank you.

Deepa: We may have more special guests coming on the podcast in the near future, so, you just got a taste with our chickpea recipe today. But hopefully, fingers crossed, more special guests soon.

Cameron: Our friends have unfortunately been watching Pretty Little Liars because of us and like, I am sorry. But also, I guess I'm not?

Deepa: We warned our friends –

Cameron: Explicitly.

Deepa: – so extensively.

Cameron: Yeah: “Don't watch the show.” But…we’re influencers.

Deepa: I do also appreciate our friends who have not watched the show, but are listening to the podcast, and basically said that it was like coming over to our apartment when Cameron and I lived together, and just like chilling out while we talk – talk over them. [both laugh]

Cameron: LOL.

Deepa: They’re like, “It’s relaxing.”

Cameron: Thank you, everyone who listens to this. We love you so much.

Deepa: We did not expect most of you to listen to this.

Cameron: Uh huh.

Deepa: Oh, okay, yes, I think you should sign off.

Cameron: Well, it's very hot here. I hope you're staying cool. And until next time: act normal bitches!