Don't Forget the Chickpeas

Episodes 1.10 & 1.11: "I'm Sixteen, and I'm Tired"

• Deepa & Cameron • Season 1 • Episode 6

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In today’s pod, we cover PLL episodes 1.10 “Keep Your Friends Close” and 1.11 “Moments Later”! We discuss how much we love Camp Mona, Ashley’s unauthorized loan, Ali as a candy striper, why the patriarchy is okay with women playing field hockey, and the worst poem we’ve read in our entire lives.

Episode Transcript: Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpea Recipe: Chickpea Salad with Shaved Red Onion and Fennel

Fashion Analysis: Our best and worst outfits, and one we didn't hate as much as we maybe should have! (Cameron did successfully guess Deepa’s favorite outfit was, so either Cameron knows Deepa too well, or Deepa is predictable…possibly both)

Cameron’s Sports Analysis

Things We Referenced Related to PLL

  • Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan, in the context of the PLL episode “The Wrath of Kahn”
  • Ezra’s appalling "B-26" poem, which manages to be ableist and possibly racist in addition to being terrible writing

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL

  • How to Get Away With Murder and knowing exactly where we are in time, unlike PLL
  • We recorded this months ago, the week that the Screen Actors Guild (SAG-AFTRA) announced their strike, but incredibly, SAG-AFTRA and the WGA are still on strike! Everyone should strike!  

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to help Rozan and Aboud, two young people in Gaza, escape genocide with their families. You can find multiple donation options at oldcowcreative.com!

Deepa: Okay, let's get started! Welcome back to Don't Forget The Chickpeas, your favorite Pretty Little Liars rewatch podcast. I'm Deepa.

Cameron: I'm Cameron.

Deepa: And today we are talking about episodes 10 and 11 of the first season, which are “Keep Your Friends Close” and “Moments Later”. I think we've done a good job of pairing together – like accidentally pairing together episodes that go together. Good job us!

Cameron: Yes, it would have been weird to do these two separately.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So. Do you have anything that you want to get us started with, Cameron?

Cameron: Oh, I was just so excited to see a lot of moments, I think, in these two that are just like iconic PLL things.

Deepa: The first one especially – episode 10 especially. But episode 11 too.

Cameron: I just, I love Camp Mona. I love Mona hitting Hanna with a car. [both laugh]

Deepa: I love Mona being incredibly sweet to Hanna when she visits her in the hospital after hitting her with a car!

Cameron: That is just amazing stuff! We get an Alison visitation.

Deepa: We do! I think our first real Ali visit.

Cameron: Yeah. So those are things I was excited by in these episodes.

Deepa: Same, same. Yes. Can I – can we go on a little digression about Camp Mona?

Cameron: Yes please!

Deepa: So in 2021 – which was not actually my first pandemic birthday, because my birthday is in April, so I had one in 2020 too – but my second pandemic birthday, my friends, led by Cameron, organized a PLL themed birthday and, like, mystery! So it was incredible. I can't describe all of it right now. I’ll probably reference it at various other times, but one of my favorite parts was that Cameron got us hoodies that said “Camp Mona”!

Cameron: I only got you a hoodie that said “Camp Mona”.

Deepa: Did you only get me a hoodie? Oh, that makes more sense.

Cameron: [laughs] I could not – I don't see myself convincing other people to wear that, or I don't know. Maybe –

Deepa: That’s true, that’s true. To clarify: all the other people have not watched Pretty Little Liars and were just along for the ride. That's a good point.

Cameron: Yeah. I like the idea of it, because some of the thing that's important in Camp Mona is that everyone is wearing a hoodie –

Deepa: Everyone, mhm.

Cameron: – so it's like this chaos-inducing kind of, like, unsettling feeling.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't able to achieve that, I would say, for your birthday.

Deepa: That is totally fair. You were also, You weren't just going for a Camp Mona vibe in the party, like, there was so much stuff going on. Cameron kidnapped my stuffed animal to use as the victim in this. It was an incredible party, absolutely incredible.

Cameron: It took you a while to notice!

Deepa: It did take me a while to notice! So we started off just Cameron and I, like, the morning in our apartment, and I knew a party was happening, but not what it was. And then Cameron kept being like, “Okay, we're gonna leave soon, we have to wait for the others to let us know,” or something, and like I just kept going in my room and not noticing that my favorite stuffed animal was gone from my bed. And Cameron had to be really obvious about, like, the ransom note! [both laugh] Lucky from 101 Dalmatians is the stuffed animal that was kidnapped mercilessly.

Cameron: Yeah. [laughs]

Deepa: And trapped in a giant Easter egg.

Cameron: That is true. Yeah.

Deepa: Anyway, that is my Camp Mona digression. Incredible party, incredible sweatshirt and hoodie. That said, in real life, Cameron, would you go to Camp Mona? Because it is both camping and a party in the woods.

Cameron: Um…

Deepa: Cameron hates camping. As a reference.

Cameron: I do hate camping. I think I'm unclear about what it actually entails. Like, it's…beauty?

Deepa: I do think they were supposed to be sleeping out there, because they're all there pretty late. I feel like until Hanna gets hit by the car, it is a sleepover. I assume they’re sleeping in tents, but, like, glammed up tents? You could go get a blow-out… [both laugh]

Cameron: I'm not sold on Camp Mona, I guess. I mean, you know it takes me a lot to go camping. And I just – I don't get the draw for this. Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, that's fair. And also, yeah, as we always talk about, parties in the woods are very dangerous, and this is our first party in the woods, so. And in fact, Hanna does get hit by a car.

Cameron: There's attempted vehicular homicide.

Deepa: There's attempted vehicular homicide. There's, like, fucking Ezra stuff. And then there's a tree that gets cut down, and they're all really shocked that the tree got cut down! Like the amount that they are surprised that A cut a whole tree, after, like running Hanna over with a car is really funny to me. Like, you know, that's a step stuff too far, though, they cut a tree. [both laugh] I also love that that Spencer is like, “Well, Alison did some weird things, but she wasn't tacky, she wouldn't have put that up just for the sake of it” – the Ian thing.

Cameron: I wrote that quote down, because I love that. She was not tacky, so.

Deepa: Not tacky. At all. At all. Okay, well, let's start off actually even a step back with Mona's party, because I think the first thing that I hadn't remembered was that, you know, Mona comes and gives them all invitations to her party, I love that – “One for each of you, my bestie’s other friends”, amazing Mona move – and then after she walks away they're all like, “I don't think I'm going to go.” And then A sends a message, and they're like, “Oh, shit! We have to go.” So: was Mona just using the A thing to get more people to her party?

Cameron: Absolutely. It was like, “You bitches better come to my birthday party.” [both laugh]

Deepa: Incredible! Incredible.

Cameron: Yeah. I loved that. I guess just following the Mona trajectory of these two episodes…one of the main points of tension is that we know Hanna and her mother are struggling with money, and Hanna is not able to like necessarily show up for Mona in the ways that Mona wishes, or maybe they have in the past. And she can't – she gets kind of detained by the FBI, and can't skip school to hang out with Mona which is hilarious.

Deepa: Hilarious! And also like a really legitimate reason not to be able to skip school. Like, literally, the FBI are here.

Cameron: Yeah. And Mona threatens to “go rogue”.

Deepa: What does that mean in terms of Mona not being – in terms of what we think Mona is right now – what is Mona “going rogue”?

Cameron: I guess it was just creating new friendships? [both laugh] But I just really like that threat.

Deepa: Yes, yes. Well, and Mona goes so many steps with this, right, because she threatens to do all that just if Hanna doesn't show up. But then she sends an A message lying about Hanna having had liposuction –

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: – and that only, like, happens for five minutes, we never get that anything about that rumor again as far as I remember – but it is really funny! Because she could just be pissed at Hanna enough already, but she had to, like, slip another A thing in there.

Cameron: She's having fun. It's her birthday!

Deepa: It is her birthday. I was disappointed by her outfit – not at Camp Mona, but her outfit at school that day. It was not very good. And even, like, her hair was just in a ponytail – I don't know. It's not very impressive. I didn't like her earrings…yeah. Anyway. I liked everything else about Mona and Camp Mona. Yes. Mona going rogue.

Cameron: Mona going rogue. Also, her outfit to visit Hanna in the hospital was very bad. It had a disgusting necklace.

Deepa: Yes. Yes yes yes. Yes. I do think I was distracted enough by her using a white bra as a flag of truce that I wasn’t too focused on it –

Cameron: Loved that.

Deepa: – but you are correct. [laughs] Amazing. Amazing. I think these, you know, these are the kind of like “Mona's evil” moments that we love, right? Like, yeah, she does hit Hanna with a car. But Hanna is fine, it's okay. We don't care.

Cameron: And I think –

Deepa: Actually hilarious.

Cameron: – it is funny because Ashley has “fixed” their financial situation. [laughs]

Deepa: It's true, it's true. Ashley Oh my god. Oh my god! Ashley! And again, now we're getting to the kind of Ashley chaos that we love, because –

Cameron: We love.

Deepa: – because at least it's not bringing fucking Wilden into their home. And, like, it does involve Hanna, but it’s mostly just Ashley doing her own thing. [laughs] Mrs. Potter…

Cameron: Mrs. Potter, conveniently saying she has no more relatives left. She’s the last of her line!

Deepa: She's the last of the Potters. Just, like, handfuls of cash. Oh my god. [both laugh] I do love that Mrs. Potter takes all the candy? That's just the move you need to do when you're, like, old and you don't give a shit, right? Like someone's got butterscotch, she's not eating it. She clearly doesn't eat anything – Ashley – so just take all the candy.

Cameron: And her purse is empty because of all the cash that is not in it anymore.

Deepa: Yeah, it's true. That's true. That's true. I do like her getting stopped, basically, once by Byron, and once by the cops, while she's driving around with the purse just open. Right? Like she stuffs the cash in there and doesn't close the purse.

Cameron: No, it’s absolutely bananas. [laughs]

Deepa: Ashley. Ashley Marin, and the eventual lasagna money.

Cameron: So excited.

Deepa: I love the way she describes it to Hanna too…I think later she calls it an “unauthorized loan”. But right now, she's just like, “It was just a professional courtesy that they gave me some money.”

Cameron: “We reached an accommodation” is what she said today. I love “unauthorized loan”, though, that's amazing.

Deepa: Unauthorized loan. Unauthorized loan!

Cameron: Unauthorized loan.

Deepa: Oh my god.

Cameron: She’s just – she's killing it this episode, these episodes.

Deepa: She is. These episodes. Did you give her best parent?

Cameron: I did.

Deepa: I did as well. I was a little tempted because Ella and Aria's conversation was really good in the first one – where they’re at the grill, and Aria asks if Ella blames her, and Ella’s just like, “No, I don't. I wish you would have told me, but not because of that.” It's a good conversation, but.

Cameron: It was.

Deepa: Ashley was just out doing so many things.

Cameron: She got so much time, too, I think, like I was just very compelled.

Deepa: I love that she overheard the conversation at the beginning, and just gives Hanna the last $100 bill in her wallet to go skip school and have lunch with Mona.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Very sweet. Very sweet. That might be part of why you're having trouble with your mortgage though, Ashley! [both laugh] We’ve talked about this before, right? Like she says it, like, “We're a single income family now,” or, “single paycheck family now, trying to live a two paycheck life.” And it's true. I don't know why she didn't get better alimony from Tom. I know that they, like – at some point they talk about how they had an agreement that like – well, she clearly got a bad deal out of this, because he also isn't supposed to help pay for college. That's the thing that later comes up, right? That

Cameron: That, I hate.

Deepa: He's not in charge of college.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. So I don't know what he is paying for.

Cameron: I think nothing.

Deepa: I think nothing, I think Ashley had a bad lawyer.

Cameron: Who was her lawyer?

Deepa: She should have gone to Veronica instead.

Cameron: Yeah, why wasn’t Veronica helping out? I don't understand.

Deepa: Veronica helps Ashley out later with legal stuff, but not this time. I don't know. I mean, she's probably embarrassed with the whole, like, Rosewood “keep your perfect image thing”, so.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Things start changing after you start needing legal help for, like, criminal reasons rather than divorce reasons. I think your priorities probably shift.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: Who did you give Worst Parent to?

Cameron:  It was hard because Byron had such few moments, but the moments that he had were garbage.

Deepa: That is exactly where I was, yeah, yeah.

Cameron: But it was so brief.

Deepa: So brief. Like one scene where he can't do laundry.

Cameron: He can’t do laundry –

Deepa: He can't do anything!

Cameron: – he's, like, trying to convince Aria to raise Mike, basically.

Deepa: Right. Right! And to get between him and Ella.

Cameron: I just – yeah, it was hard, because it was so small. But he just – nevertheless, you know.

Deepa: Yeah, that's the thing, right, like I assume Pam was your other choice, which was my other choice as well.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Pam, obviously – shitty shitty shitty. Also cares about Emily very clearly, right? Like she's doing this because she cares about Emily, and she, like, worries about her, where Byron is just like, “Oh, I'm such a sad sack. I have facial hair now because I can't do anything, and you have to do more work around here because your mom used to do everything, and I can't do any of it,” right? That is basically what happened.

Cameron: And like –

Deepa: “I have to be a parent now??”

Cameron: – if you make that realization that, like, “Oh, shit! My other partner has been pulling so much” – like, “doing so much shit around here,” like, maybe that makes you think a little bit about this dynamic you've set up, or your role? No, it does not make Byron think about anything.

Deepa: Not Byron Montgomery. He just goes and complains to Ashley, who’s in the same situation for the other reason.

Cameron: He tried to get her to give him a ride.

Deepa: He can’t even get home from work now.

Cameron: He doesn't know where his home is. [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh my god. I think I also was like – in some senses, wanting to save my Pam Worst Parent designation for when she gets even shittier later, right, like she does horrible stuff. And right now it's not there yet.

Cameron: Right now I’m like, “Hmmm,” but I'm not – I know it gets so much worse.

Deepa: It gets so much worse. It gets so much worse. So, yeah, I think I'm giving it to Byron, because even in his brief – I was tempted to give it to Spencer's parents for not being there, but it didn't seem egregious enough. [both laugh]

Cameron: I feel like that's our fallback if there's no nothing else super egregious – they're just never around, so we could just call them out.

Deepa: Well, and I liked the show’s attempt to imply that they were there by Spencer coming back from Mona's camp party, and Melissa being there and saying, “Oh, Mom said you called,” as if their mom is here, right, but we never see them.

Cameron: I definitely did not even catch that. I was just, like, over my head, I don’t know.

Deepa: They just didn't want the actors to be like – they just didn't want to pay the actors, so they have Melissa being there, talking as if everyone's there.

Cameron: Oh my god, that's so funny.

Deepa: But I still think, Byron, I still think Byron.

Cameron: I guess, should we talk about Melissa?

Deepa: We should definitely talk about Melissa. Oh my god, So much chaos in these episodes!

Cameron: Ahhh! So, her and Spencer kind of make up, which is kind of nice for, like, a second. [both laugh]

Deepa: As a result of a conversation that Cameron texted me about, and then remembered that we're not supposed to talk about PLL outside the podcast. [laughs]

Cameron: I messed up!

Deepa: But I think you should still describe the conversation and the line that you texted me.

Cameron: Well, I was watching the episode, and there's this line Spencer says to Melissa about, you know, their feuding and rivalry, and just kind of the way their dynamic is, and she's like, “I'm only sixteen, and I'm tired.” [laughs] So I just texted Deepa that, and you were like, “What?”

Deepa: I didn't remember who said it! But of course it was Spencer. It's a very Spencer line, like, world weariness in her voice. [laughs] Then when they have the actual conversation later, after Melissa goes for coffee with Ian, Melissa's like – says something about them hating each other, and Spencer’s like, “I didn't know we hated each other,” and Melissa gets the funniest face of like, [does an affected voice] “Uh-huh, we don't hate each other, you know.”

Cameron: That interaction was hilarious! Like – we're still in a competition? We're still like – I do – so it was good, because as Spencer's parents weren't there, she was able to hug Melissa and cry a little bit after Hanna got hit by a car. So that was very nice. I’m glad Spencer got, like, a teeny bit of support from someone in her family.

Deepa: Until like thirty seconds later, when Ian walks in with his shirt off – well, with his shirt open.

Cameron: Like naked.

Deepa: Basically naked. Basically naked. He’s so smarmy. I forgot how smarmy he was.

Cameron: You know what I forgot? That Spencer and him had a relationship.

Deepa: Right! Not just a kiss! Yeah.

Cameron: What??

Deepa: Yes. Yes. They were, like, “seeing each other”, and he was also seeing Ali, and definitely him seeing Ali overlapped with Melissa, but supposedly with Spencer only one kiss overlapped with Melissa. Where did he have the time?

Cameron: Well, does he work?

Deepa: As a field hockey coach!

Cameron: Maybe.

Deepa: At the time I presume he was in college still? Because Melissa just got out of college when the show started.

Cameron: Oh, okay, that's a possibility.

Deepa: I mean, he's obviously rich, he's going to go to Hilton Head.

Cameron: Ah, Hilton Head.

Deepa: Hilton Head. Yeah, so Melissa goes – at Spencer's urging, because Spencer is trying to be a good sister – on a coffee date with Ian. And then the next time we see her is comforting Spencer, and then fucking Ian walks in, and we've just learned that there is a tree in the woods that has “Alison loves Ian” on it, so we’re horrified.

Cameron: Mhm, mhm.

Deepa: And then the next time we see Melissa she's in a wedding gown!

Cameron: They got eloped. They did marriage.

Deepa: [laughing] I forgot how quickly they eloped! [both laugh]

Cameron: I was thinking about our comparison of this to How to Get Away with Murder, and I think one thing that totally doesn't track is we know exactly what happened and when in How to Get Away With Murder. We know times, we know dates. We know how long until something's gonna happen. We just are very grounded in reality.

Deepa: Yes. Yes. They give us time stamps. Yeahh. Yeah, that's their whole thing. Sometimes they fuck around with us about, like, what happened when. But it eventually becomes clear. Yeah.

Cameron: And in PLL, we're floating. We're just like off in a…

Deepa: It's like, I know they got married on a Monday because he tells Spencer, “I’m canceling practice on Monday.” Okay? But, like, how long has it been over all like? When did he come back? When was the memorial where he came back? How did he get a job as coach so quickly that he's there to cancel practice? Has he even been to practice? Like  –

Cameron: It's just like…we’re just along for the ride, you know.

Deepa: Seriously. Yeah. So they elope…I was also just like, how – okay, this is Melissa Hastings we're talking about. She would have wanted a good wedding dress. Did she already have a wedding dress from her engagement with Wren?

Cameron: Probably!

Deepa: And if so, did she keep it? Like they weren't close to a wedding yet. She’d probably chosen a dress, but you know,  – I don't know how this shit works, to be honest. But it was a gorgeous dress, so she must have – it was not an off-the-rack wedding dress.

Cameron: No. Maybe she just kept it.

Deepa: I mean, she's rich. Yeah. I guess she doesn't have to, like, worry about the money side of it. [laughs] Oh, so gross! And so weird! Ian.

Cameron: And the way – like, even when they're not fighting, the way Melissa talks to Spencer is hilarious. It's always condescending.

Deepa: Oh, always. Yeah, yeah. Even when she's comforting her about Hanna, like, I'm glad Spencer takes comfort in it. But I don't know if I would – I don't think I would find it very comforting. [laughs] Incredibly condescending.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Oh, Melissa. Yeah. Yeah. Somehow Ashley got out-chaosed in these episodes. Ashley, at least – like, you understand her motives. And, like, you know, if I were in that situation, what would I do? Maybe I would take the money. Who knows? But if I were in Melissa’s situation, I do not think I would elope.

Cameron: With your ex that you just started reconnecting with like, maybe two days ago?

Deepa: Two days ago, and who you said broke your heart? Like just after you got out of another engagement, that you've been super – understandably super messed up over, but also, like, super cruel to your sister over?

Cameron: Yup.

Deepa: Melissa. Melissa. [pause] Going back to Mona for a second. This is a question. Why does Mona hit Hanna with her car?

Cameron: I think she's butthurt!

Deepa: Okay…about what?

Cameron: About Hanna not ditching school for her! I feel like it's part of that. I don't know!

Deepa: That's absolutely – that makes sense, I hadn’t thought about – okay. This is the thing that we keep coming back to again, with both Mona and Ezra, where I'm like, how much of this is part of their plan that's calculated, versus how much of this is happening because of their actual feelings and wants? And I do think for both of them, we have to assume that at some point they are reacting based on how they actually feel. Because Ezra’s putting himself in a fucking risky position, right, by doing this shit with Aria. He's using it to get in with the Liars and learn more information. But, like, if he does get found out – obviously it's not gonna be as shitty for him as people imply it would be, because it never is. But it's still risky for his mission, right? It's risky for his, like, access to information. So sometimes he probably is just being reactive, and I guess maybe Mona is sometimes too. [both laugh] I love that explanation! That makes so much sense because she comes in later and writes on Hanna’s cast, and it's just like, “Yeah, sorry, I was just mad at you.”

Cameron: Right?

Deepa: You're right, you're right, she does just say, “I lost my temper, my bad.”

Cameron: I think that's what happened! I don't know.

Deepa: I think you're right, because obviously – well, Hanna didn't know anything.

Cameron: No! She didn't see what she thought she saw, or…yeah.

Deepa: Great. Great. Yes, thank you. I think you're absolutely right.

Cameron: Because Hanna thinking Noel is A is good. Right?

Deepa: Absolutely!

Cameron: For Mona?

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. It is good for Mona. Also, I totally forgot until the episode started, and I realized that we were gonna get Noel seeing Ezra and Aria – like, I totally forgot that this is also, maybe, part of Noel's shift towards a harder Noel Kahn, instead of, like, earnest, brainy Noel Kahn. Because they think he’s A, and then he gets in trouble for it, or whatever. So.

Cameron: We don't – are there funny, like, puns? Because we have Dark Ali, do we have, like, Dark Noel?

Deepa: We have the fucking Wrath of Kahn!

Cameron: Thank you, I wanted – thank you.

Deepa: Did you block that from your brain because it's a Star Trek reference? Probably.

Cameron: That's not – that could have happened. Yeah.

Deepa: It was also the episode before he dies. So we don't get “The Wrath of Kahn” for a long time. But it is funny. It is funny. But yeah, I just had forgotten that we think Noel is A for a while. Which is fun. Which is very fun.

Cameron: And if – I was thinking, if Noel is A, right, him delivering, like, a little “get well” basket to Hanna – and I know we're not at the stage yet where they're being completely monitored. But I would throw out that teddy bear, right? Like I would assume there's a recording device in there.

Deepa: For sure! It’s like – I would assume that over assuming Jenna Cavanaugh had – not Cavanaugh, what is Jenna’s last name? Jenna Marshall – had poisoned the cookies that she brought over in broad daylight!

Cameron: Oh my god.

Deepa: That is far less believable than there being something in the teddy bear! [laughs] There’s always something in teddy bears!

Cameron: They're sinister.

Deepa: Teddy bears and dolls, yeah. Not stuffed dogs. Stuffed dogs are not sinister.

Cameron: No, they’re fine. [both laugh]

Deepa: That’s very true. That’s very true. When Hanna was in the hospital, basically, every time the door opened I thought it was going to be the Ali entrance, and then it never was until it was! Because it was like Noel, and then it was Mona, and then it was Lucas…I forgot how much stuff happens in the hospital room.

Cameron: She's just there.

Deepa: Can't control who comes in. Yeah. Lucas. Yeah. We're shifting into annoying Lucas, to be honest.

Cameron: Like, we obviously agree that she deserves a better boyfriend than Sean.

Deepa: Definitely.

Cameron: But!

Deepa: But, as she says, that is between her and Sean.

Cameron: It is!

Deepa: It's not about Lucas. Sorry, Lucas.

Cameron: She was so explicitly clear with him.

Deepa: So clear, so kind about it, right? Like. I do love that she starts the conversation with, like, “You know, friends are really important.”

Cameron: Yesss! “Maybe more important than other things.”

Deepa: Which, you know, to be fair, she woke up from getting hit by a car and was immediately like, “I need to talk to Spencer and Aria and Emily, and not to my mom” – I mean, her mom was there, I guess, but, like, not to her mom or her boyfriend.

Cameron: I don’t know –

Deepa: Sean wasn’t even in this episode!

Cameron: Did Sean know – I mean, Sean probably knew, because he was hanging out with Noel.

Deepa: I think they did the thing where Sean wasn't in this episode, but they talked about him being there, because Ashley says he was – he came to the ER, we just don't see him, and then he delivers orchids, right, that Hanna says are from him. But we don't, I think, get the actor.

Cameron: I guess I thought that was a joke??

Deepa: [cracks up] No!

Cameron: Which doesn't make any sense. I don't know!

Deepa: I think they just didn’t want to pay the actor! They do that shit all the time!

Cameron: “Oh, orchids from Sean.” [both laugh] I don’t know!

Deepa: They were fucking huge orchids.

Cameron: Giant. How do you maintain those?

Deepa: How do you take them home in your – like, what?

Cameron: No.

Deepa: How many ice cubes do those orchids need? Wow.

Cameron: Okay, so Sean was there. Allegedly.

Deepa: I think they're already getting budget-strapped, right, like, they’re in the middle of the season;  they're probably not as popular now as they're going to be. And they're like, we can't have all these actors at the same time speaking lines.

Cameron: Oof, yeah, getting out of hand.

Deepa: We’ll kind of just talk about them and fill everything in with extras. I did think it was weird that we briefly see Lucas at the ER on the night it happens. How did he get there? Why? Ashley’s just like, “This boy Lucas showed up, never heard of him.”

Cameron: He's not already a minion, right?

Deepa: No, no. [laughing] We had this exact conversation last podcast episode!

Cameron: I know, I'm just like… [laughs]

Deepa: I am very sure Lucas is not a minion yet.

Cameron: He’s just there?

Deepa: I think he’s just there! And, like, has his own thing about Ali, which is fair, and is in love with Hanna. Like, I don’t know what else there is to it, I think he’s just being creepy and weird.

Cameron: Okay, okay.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. When he leaves, and she's like, “You can stay,” and he says, “Yeah, but if I stay, it'll make you think that I'm okay with this, and I'm not,” it sounded so much like Aria saying that to Ella. It was just this weird thing of, like, if I avoid you and pretend that this didn't happen, then I'll be right, or, like, I'll get…what? What? Like?

Cameron: Yeahhhh. Fucking Lucas.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: “Yuck” in this episode. [both laugh] Should we talk about Ali visiting, because we're talking about hospital?

Deepa: Please! Yeah, I was so excited for Alison.

Cameron: I love it. She's in the candy striper outfit.

Deepa: She is!

Cameron: Iconic. Little socks, little shoes, like…[laughs]

Deepa: And she can pull it off somehow.

Cameron: Yeah. And she just says some incredibly cryptic stuff.

Deepa: She starts off with, “Did you miss me?” Which is so perfectly Ali.

Cameron: Incredible.

Deepa: Completely on form, despite the fact that she's here, for the first time, because she is worried about her friend getting run over by a car!

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Genuinely worried. That’s why she came.

Cameron: Genuinely worried. So she says she's in this position because she told the truth to the wrong person at the wrong time.

Deepa: I wrote that down as well.

Cameron: Who??

Deepa: I don't know, I was gonna ask you this! Yeah, what does – what does Ali think happened to her at this point? That's the question, right? Like who does she think did this to her?

Cameron: Her mom.

Deepa: She knows her mom buried her. But she knows her mom also didn't hit her on the head, because she sees her mom looking and she gets hit in the head from the back, right? So obviously, someone that her mom –

Cameron: – cares about.

Deepa: Well, I guess I don't even know if she knows that at this point. But…

Cameron: Well, someone that her mom would like cover up something for, kind of.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, like, who would Alison think – Alison wouldn't think that had anything to do with the N.A.T. Club, or, like, any of the people that she was seeing, or the Jenna Thing, right? I think her main suspects at this point should be her father and Jason. Right?

Cameron: Yeah. Honestly.

Deepa: So what did – who did she tell the truth to at the wrong time? [both laughing] I think they just made that up, and then didn't have a way to back it up later. It’s a good line.

Cameron: It’s a very good line. And especially afterwards when she's just like, “Most times, you're better off with a really good lie.”

Deepa: Yeah, that's a great line as well. That’s just like the epitome of Ali.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I can't even remember where she's living at this point, because she hops back into Rosewood every once in a while, when they need her. Or when something dramatic happens that she can come in for, and then they can think that it was a dream.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Maybe she's in Philly…

Cameron: New York?

Deepa: I don't know when she goes to New York. Yeah, I don't know. And, like, who knows at this point? Like…Charlotte is helping her, under the guise of being Cece. Noel is eventually helping her.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Mona – hmm! Do you think she already is, like, suspecting Mona of something? And it's Mona that is the person she told the truth to. Okay, because after she –

Cameron: Ohhhhh!

Deepa: – emerges from the grave, Grunwald takes her to the hospital, she flees the car instead of staying with Grunwald, she's walking down the road, and Mona picks her up, and, like, helps her at the motel, right?

Cameron: The Lost Woods Resort.

Deepa: The Lost Woods Resort, yes! [laughs] Maybe she is seeing what Mona is doing, and she doesn't yet know that Mona's A, because she says to Hanna, “Maybe I should do something about A, they're really turning out to be a bitch,” or whatever.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But maybe Mona is the one who is like – maybe Mona’s the person she told the truth to. I don't know.

Cameron: Because I think she did! She was very vulnerable, and, like, in a really intense situation.

Deepa: Yeah. I just don't know if she sees Mona as an antagonist yet, or if she still thinks that Mona was just helping her. Yeah. Well, great. I'm glad we both are confused about the same thing.

Cameron: “What’s the truth??”

Deepa: “What's the truth? Who is the person?” We definitely don't know when the time was, so at least give us the other two! [both laugh] Please give us the what and the who!

Cameron: Ahhh.

Deepa: I do love re-watching the show knowing that Ali’s alive, because I don't think I thought Ali was alive the first time we watched it. I think I assumed that these are all really dream sequences, and that Alison was dead. And I think a lot of people did. So. Yeah. So it's really fun to see that – like that, at least, they knew the whole time, even if they didn't have other plot stuff figured out. I think they were intending for Alison to be alive.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Even if they don't have any other details about it. [both laugh]

Cameron: Yeah, I mean, like, when they find a body, you assume it’s her body, right?

Deepa: Sure!

Cameron: I mean, I know we think forensics is much better than it actually is. We have this idea of what it is and how it actually works, when it's, just, also nonsense.

Deepa: It’s also nonsense. Later we find out that they have – that Charlotte has been able to infiltrate the dental records. But, you know, there's no reason to assume that at this point, that it would be a different person in the grave, wearing the same shirt and the bracelet.

Cameron: And the bracelet. Yeah.

Deepa: My memory was that Hanna – oh, no, I think this happens later. I was gonna say, my memory is that Hanna tells the others that she saw Ali. But I think maybe that only happens after Emily sees Ali, and then they're all, like, exchanging stories of times they saw Ali that might be real. So.

Cameron: I did – I didn't think that was going to happen, but I was happy, I guess, or something, that the Liars are sharing secrets with each other. Like Spencer shared the Ian situation…

Deepa: I didn't realize that Spencer hadn't shared the Wren situation?

Cameron: And the Wren situation! Yeah!

Deepa: I – they had to have known, because Hanna picks her up from the motel that Wren kisses her outside of. So how – that's probably just a slip. I don't know. Anyway.

Cameron: That's a very good point. [laughs]

Deepa: Hanna does seem like the one who knows more things than others, right? Because she finds out about Emily and Maya earlier. She finds out – she's the first to find out about Aria and Ezra. So maybe she's just actually the best at keeping other people's secrets. Aria is the best of keeping her own secrets but. [laughs]

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Aria’s forced into telling that. But she did tell them that, I guess. So.

Cameron: Yeah, I guess.

Deepa: I was thinking about the reactions that we get, right? Like immediately one of horror, but I think – so I think it's very interesting to contrast Noel's reaction, which, knowing what we know now, I think is genuine, right? That he's horrified about this, and he's horrified about it in the way where he's like, “He's making you do this, I can go with you, I can help you out, help you talk to the principal, we can tell them what he’s done,” blah blah blah.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So Noel is one of those characters that the show – the way this show writes him demonstrates that they know what they're doing and what's wrong, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It's just that Aria is like, “No, it's not like that. This is different.” Right? Spencer, on the other hand: Spencer starts her very weird set of reactions of always being like, “This is so hot!” which I fucking hate. Spencer. Shut up. I know that you've also been in the situation of being, like, used by an adult. But still.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But the other thing she says, that I think is really telling, is she says, “Half of me thinks this is really self-destructive.” And I think that's how the other Liars see it.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I don't think they see this as, like, an abusive situation where Aria is being taken advantage of by a teacher and an adult. I think they see this as like, oh, this is a mess. You're gonna get hurt because it's a mess, and it could all fall apart, you know? Which again, I guess, like – they're also teens. They're also kids. But that's how the show wants us to see it. So it's really frustrating that the characters that we actually trust are framing it that way, whereas Noel, who is going to be seen as distrustful, is the one who's right! Aaaah!

Cameron: Ughhhh.

Deepa: The one who's right. Also, this is just gonna be a thread later on, because, you know – at some point, I think, after Aria finds out about Ezra's book, at one point she almost goes to the principal's house in the middle of the night to tell him, or something like that, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Something like that happens when she's mad at Ezra, and someone stops her, and I think they're like, “Aria, think about the consequences. Ezra could go to jail,” blah blah blah. And in this very carceral show, why is it only Ezra that people are ever worried about going to jail instead of, like, everyone else that they ever thinking about calling the cops on, you know??

Cameron: Honestly, so weird!

Deepa: It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. It's just because Aria doesn't want them to, or, you know, because he's “a good guy in a bad situation”, which he clearly isn't after they find out about the book!

Cameron: He is intending to do bad. Yeah, I was thinking about – okay, sorry, this is going to be a little tangent, but.

Deepa: Go for it.

Cameron: So A calls the cops on Toby.

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Toby's, like, lurking around the church – where everything happens, sidebar.

Deepa: I do think that's our first church.

Cameron: That's our first church, okay. So A has just called the cops on Toby and, like, scooped him up. And Emily's like trying to visit him, or, like, you know, get – you know, figure something out, try to talk to him, apologize, or whatever. But immediately, when they – you know Hanna gets hit by a car, they're trying to like problem-solve – she's like, “Let's call the cops.” [laughs] Like, what, Emily! Your friend just got arrested – I don't know what are we doing here?

Deepa: That whole scene, too, when he gets arrested, is so upsetting, right? Like, Toby, is terrified –

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: – and just, like, the way they play that scene is so horrible. And all I could think during that scene was, you're gonna do this someday. Like, you had this experience as a vulnerable teenager who was, like, out on the run after having been, like – having known what it's like to be in reform school, I guess we get confirmation when it wasn't juvie, which is weird, but reform school, which also sounds fucking terrible and carceral – and, like, that you're gonna do this someday? What the fuck? All of you, all of you are going to keep doing this. Toby’s just going to be the one who's actually a cop.

Cameron: Yeah, I was like trying to, like, map that. And it's so hard to see.

Deepa: So hard. I – I feel like this is a different Toby. I feel like we're not at “Toby is either an A minion or cop” yet. I feel like that happens after he and Spencer get together. Like, I feel like when he stops being, like, weird loner Toby, who dresses the way he dresses, and has long hair, and likes bands that no one's heard of except for Emily, like – I think that change happens, and then he becomes like – you know what I mean?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It's really hard to trace, now that we're trying to do an intentional tracing of it. Because he's been through a fucking lot, and he's clearly traumatized by this experience of getting arrested by cops who were pulling guns on him, right? Like – and he thinks that Emily turned him in, too. He thinks that his friend, like – I guess later he'll be disabused of that notion, but still, like, horrible.

Cameron: You know, when he's like – okay, popping up in someone's backseat? Hilarious move.

Deepa: That was ridiculous! [both laugh] Terrifying, truly horror movie terrifying.

Cameron: Love that, love that as a move of trying to get someone to talk to you! [laughs]

Deepa: That was like the first real jump scare I feel like I had so far watching this where I was like, “Oh, fuck!”

Cameron: And it's like, he says “I'm here to finish what I started”! [laughs] And then proceeds with, like, “telling you what I was trying to tell you,” or something, but, like, “finish what I started”, popping up in the backseat. Hilarious.

Deepa: Amazing! So funny.

Cameron: But when he says, “I have friends in low places,” and I was, like, are those who you – are those cops? Is this, like – what are we doing here? [both laugh] They’re not cops, because, you know, whatever.

Deepa: His reform school buddies, you know!

Cameron: Trying to make something happen.

Deepa: Trying to make something happen. Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, I just feel so bad for him right now.

Deepa: Me too! I feel so bad for him. And he’s still got a lot to go through before he gets out on the other side, and becomes, like, I don't know, a clean-cut carpenter or whatever, like. [laughs]

Cameron: Gross.

Deepa: And then a cop.

Cameron: And then a cop!

Deepa: Carpenter I was fine with; it's a cop trajectory from carpenter that's upsetting.

Cameron:  Yeah, carpenter is like ultimate rom-com job for men.

Deepa: Yeah, seriously! [both laugh]

Cameron: Do you want to hear my field hockey analysis?

Deepa: Please! Yes, I've been waiting.

Cameron: Okay. So I read this book called Coming On Strong, and it's about women's sports in the twentieth century. And one thing she was talking about is about how, like – I mean, obviously women's sports have always been super contentious, people always have a problem with it, trying to shut it down, trying to control anything possibly they can in that.

Deepa: Right.

Cameron: And, like, one thing she was talking about specifically with basketball, women's basketball, was like – too much contact, too much like, you know, strength, all these different things. And so there were just all these rules to try to contain people's – preserve femininity.

Deepa: Right, right.

Cameron: You know, they, like, have a beauty pageant also –

Deepa: Oh my god.

Cameron: – someone gets crowned Beauty Queen of the college championship, or something.

Deepa: Geez, okay.

Cameron: But one of the main problems –

Deepa: I mean, makes sense. But.

Cameron: It does make sense. It's disgusting. But one of the main problems, aside from the aggression and the contact, and just the physical, like, strength basketball requires, was that people thought it was fun, so there were spectators. That was a huge problem. People wanted to watch women play basketball. That was the issue, like it was a spectacle.

Deepa: [laughing] Oh my good, wow! That is – sorry, in the context of women’s sports now that is so funny, because people love to claim that women's sports aren't popular as a way to shut them down now. Anyway. Sorry.

Cameron: That is one of the things that makes field hockey really attractive. No one wants to watch it. It's British, so they're like, “Oh, it must be good.” [both laughing] And it, like, has these class associations, like, it's high class, it takes place in these clubs, not these public arenas.

Deepa: Oh my god. Wow. Wowwwww.

Cameron: No one cares. No one wants to watch women play field hockey.

Deepa: No one wants to watch women play field hockey! Even if they're in skirts, which they are. Geez! Okay, okay. Wow.

Cameron: And I just thought that was so fucking funny.

Deepa: That’s hilarious, that is – no, that is really, really funny. [laughing] Oh my god!

Cameron: Yeah, and I guess another point that's less funny than the spectators, but just, like, field hockey has always been a women's sport, right? So it's not like an adaptation of a men’s sport.

Deepa: Right. I was going to ask about that, actually! Yeah. Okay. So there is no men's version.

Cameron: It came from England as a women’s sport.

Deepa: Okay. Okay. How – this is definitely a tangent – but do you know how field hockey relates to ice hockey? Like the trajectory of –

Cameron: Absolutely not!

Deepa: Okay. [both laugh] I don’t know, you’re the sports expert! Tell me when you learn about it.

Cameron: Okay, that’s my nugget –

Deepa: You have to learn about ice hockey at some point!

Cameron: I know, I – I have a book, don’t worry.

Deepa: Good.

Cameron: But I just, like, was dying at the field hockey/basketball comparison –

Deepa: That’s amazing, I love that.

Cameron: – and I just had to share that with you.

Deepa: That’s perfect. I think it's very – I think the show even makes it clear that the sports Spencer plays are, like, the club upper-class sports, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: They're tennis and field hockey.

Cameron: So I wanted to tell you that.

Deepa: That is amazing. I love that. No one wants to watch field hockey –

Cameron: No one wants to watch it.

Deepa: – so it's, like, safe and controllable? Oh my god.

Cameron: Yeah, we can let the women play because no one cares. [both laugh]

Deepa: No one cares! They're not going to beat any dudes. They’re not going to beat their –  I mean, they're going to beat records, but yeah.

Cameron: Yeah, their femininity or womanhood isn't called into question.

Deepa: Right, right. But it's also not, like, too girly, like – meaning, it’s not too lesbian, because there's not much contact. Yeah.

Cameron: I mean, they're all lesbian, but – [laughing]

Deepa: They are all lesbian, yes. You don't have to have contact to be lesbian, as you can see with, like, women's baseball and softball, but. [laughs] But, you know, compared to basketball, probably considered less lesbian. [both laugh] Amazing. Thank you for the hockey analysis. Thank you.

Cameron: Yeah, that's my sports analysis for the episode. [laughs]

Deepa: This is tangential, but I did just realize another reason why we should love – or, do love Heather Hogan, but we should explore more – is that Heather is currently writing WNBA recaps for Autostraddle, which I haven't realized until recently, so.

Cameron: Why didn’t we know about this??

Deepa: [laughs] I haven’t read Autostraddle in a long time, I don’t know.

Cameron: I guess that’s fair.

Deepa: You know how I found out about this? Because from our Twitter account for this podcast, the only person we are following is Heather Hogan, so I’m seeing her tweets more often, like, because it's the entire following list. [both laugh]

Cameron: A Heather Hogan feed? I love that.

Deepa: Like, who else are we gonna follow?

Cameron: Nope.

Deepa: No one else, just Heather Hogan.

Cameron: No one else. That's great. Thank you for that.

Deepa: So I have not been keeping up on the season, because I've been too tired, but I love hearing about it from you, and now I think you should let me know what Heather says about it, if you read it.

Cameron: I will! Thank you. [both laugh] Okay, we should probably go back to the material.

Deepa: To Pretty Little Liars? Are you sure? [both laugh]

Cameron: Yeah. No. But. [both laugh]

Deepa: Okay, I think we have to talk about the fucking “B-26” poem? [laughs]

Cameron: Aaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Deepa: We did misquote the first line. It is – the first line is, “It's a number,” which. Ezra. It's not. It's a number and a letter. [laughs] The first 3 lines are, “It's a number. It's a song. It's a girl.” Disgusting. Disgusting!

Cameron: I just don't have any words about it. Like…

Deepa: I also – as I'm apparently doing in this rewatch, because I’ve never bothered before – am pausing to, like, read things. So I read the horrible poetry. It doesn't even really make sense? And, it manages to be fucking ableist.

Cameron: In his poem?

Deepa: I'm not going to read it out loud. It's not about Jenna, but it manages to be ableist about people who are DeafBlind – sorry, not DeafBlind, just Deaf.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: Deaf and nonverbal.

Cameron: What the fuck.

Deepa: And it's completely fucking out of nowhere, it's used as a metaphor. So I'm maybe going to put it on our twitter and hide it with, like, you know, a sensitivity warning or whatever for people who want to see what the actual poem says. But I'm just like – this show cannot, like, wait to be ableist about things. Like? [laughs] Horrible!

Cameron: And, like, if you have to rely on an ableist metaphor in your poem, maybe you're not a good writer.

Deepa: You’re a horrible poet.

Cameron: Like, what? [laughs]

Deepa: It’s ableist. It's, like, maybe slightly racist? Because it like –

Cameron: Oh, god!

Deepa: – it brings up, like, falafel in the metaphor that I don't understand.

Cameron: That’s so confusing.

Deepa: It's so bad. It’s so bad! I'm going to text it to you, and I'm going to put it on our twitter, but I'm not going to read it aloud.

Cameron: We're not going to do that. [both laugh]

Deepa: So this confirms that Ezra is horrible at everything, and not just horrible, but, like, disgusting, at everything.

Cameron: Oh my god!

Deepa: [laughs] “B-26”.

Cameron: I didn't pause on this, but I saw that during this episode – the first, episode 10 – on his blackboard was “poetry analysis”.

Deepa: [both laugh] Oh my god. That’s funny. I did notice that there was, like, “alliteration” written on there. This poem did not have a lot of alliteration, I would say.

Cameron: Maybe he's still learning that. [both laugh]

Deepa: Maybe. Maybe. It's so bad. I’m going to text it to you. It's so bad. It's like a joke poem. It's like a joke poem, but it's ableist and maybe racist.

Cameron: And he gets it published.

Deepa: He gets it published. Ugh. Ew. Ewwww. [laughs] Yeah.

Cameron: I feel like it should be harder to get poetry published.

Deepa: I know poets who have such a hard time getting fucking incredible poetry published!

Cameron: Okay, so it is hard!

Deepa: Just not if you're a white dude who, like, is writing about, like – I don't even know what he's writing about. Like. I am not really a poet, but I do a lot – I am a creative writer. I think I have a little bit of an understanding of, like, theory behind poetry. This is a crap poem. I'm sorry, it's a completely crap poem. [laughs] It doesn't mean anything. It's using words to try to mean things that just don't make any sense, and it's balls.

Cameron: It's balls.

Deepa: That's my review. Also, when Aria goes to confront him about it, at the end he throws the book across the room? Just like as a temper tantrum?

Cameron: So embarrassing.

Deepa: Is it because he knows it’s a terrible poem and he’s like Fuck, Aria read it. Now she’ll know. Not only that I’m still in love with her, but that I’m a bad writer. [laughs]

Cameron: Oh, okay. He used his last name to get his poem published.

Deepa: Well, his last name is Fitz in the poem.

Cameron: In the poem?

Deepa: Yeah, I looked.

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: But I still think, like, having a last name like Fitz probably helps, compared to, like, if I tried to get a poem published. I’m not going to say my last name on this podcast, but it’s – [laughs] it’s not Fitz!

Cameron: It’s not Fitz.

Deepa: It’s a name people mispronounce all the time. [laughs] Actually, I could say my last name. My twitter is tagged in our account. [both laugh] Oh man.

Cameron: Aaaaaaah! [both laugh]

Deepa: Fucking Ezra.

Cameron: Okay. moving on –

Deepa: I just needed to talk about “B-26”, because – I mean, I was kind of thrilled when it happened, because I love to hate it, you know? It's hilarious. But.

Cameron: Thank you for texting it to me later.

Deepa: Yes. [both laugh]

Cameron:  One thing we haven't talked about yet is, we have a new parent!

Deepa: Yes, we do. We do.

Cameron: We got a parent! We got Wayne Fields.

Deepa: We did get Wayne Fields. Trying to be a good dad. [both laugh] Actually cares about his daughter.

Cameron: Does really care about her, yes.

Deepa: That's the thing, right, is that, like, even the moms – even when they're doing really fucked up shit – they feel like real parents struggling with real problems, and like – not problems, I guess, but struggling to know how to parent. Right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like they – they might not even always have good intentions, but they feel real, and they feel complex, and, like Wayne fits into that, and all the moms fit into that, and the other three dads for me don't, right? Like I don't feel like they have enough interiority even for me to, like, believe that they care about their – you know?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like they're just saying things, and it doesn't seem real, and – particularly Peter, but I don't mind it as much when it’s Peter because he’s hilarious.

Cameron: The town whore. [both laugh] I’m sorry. It’s funny!

Deepa: Oh my god! Peter. Peter. Peter. [both laugh] Anyway, back to Wayne. 

Cameron: Sorry. [both laugh]

Deepa: Yeah. Wayne is not doing a perfect job, but he feels like he's trying, and he feels like he really cares about Emily, and, like…you know?

Cameron: And he cares about trying to convince Pam, too,  that their daughter being gay isn't the end of the world.

Deepa: Isn’t wrong. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, like, there's obviously some tension there that I feel like is real, because I'm sure Pam feels like, oh, he gets to swoop in, and I'm the one who's here all the time. You know?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: There's that element of it that is very real. She has to be the disciplinarian, and she has to be, you know, the one with the hard truths, and – but, still, she is wrong.

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: And she’s being really shitty. So it’s good that Wayne is pushing back on that.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I think the main thing that frustrated me with Wayne – and I think this is where, like, a lot of the military context comes in, and in subtle, insidious ways – is how immediately carceral he is too, right? Like he immediately is like, “This Toby boy is dangerous. You need to call the cops –“ call the cops all the time. And then we also get a little bit of the, like, fucking disgusting trope of American soldiers who have been in combat zones abroad using trauma around combat zones to, like – [both laugh] make comparisons here, so…

Cameron: No, it was like, “Pam. This isn't as bad as it could be, because I've seen bad.”

Deepa: “Because I've seen bad, and it was my army killing people in Afghanistan, killing Black and brown people,” right. Like?

Cameron: “And that was bad.”

Deepa: “That was bad. So at least it's not –“ you know. Aaaaaah.

Cameron: “But it was bad in the way that it harmed me and my friends.”

Deepa: Yeah. That’s who – that’s who’s the real – yeah. Exactly.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: The connections of, you know, the copaganda elements, that are somewhat domestic, to the imperialism. [laughs] Very clear connections.

Cameron: Yeah. And then we're just not satisfied that Toby is arrested enough.

Deepa: [laughs Right. Right!

Cameron: We want him to be more punished, we want him – what? Like, I don't, like – Deepa: Emily can't talk to him, like. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Jenna is right to distrust them all. Right? Like –

Cameron: Mhm.

Deepa: Emily does care about Toby. However, when he came to her and told her his stuff, she immediately told her friends, like, in the next scene. Right? He's like, “You know if you tell your friends, they’ll call the cops.” And they didn't, but she doesn't listen to him. It was a real risk.

Cameron: Maybe they didn't call the cops only because they didn't have cell service, you know? [Deepa cracks up] At Camp Mona.

Deepa: They were in the woods! [both laugh] I do love how A always has cell service. Like Mona has to have, like, hacked her way into – maybe she has a satellite phone or something? I don't know. But A can always send them messages, but their cell service is always horrible. [both laugh]

Cameron: It's pretty impressive technology stuff. Yeah.

Deepa: That is a very good point. [laughs] While we're on Jenna: why is there a Jenna bracelet??

Cameron: Oh my god, right?

Deepa: Why does Jenna have a bracelet? I feel like the bracelets just get dropped at some point, plot-wise, and we just don't ever care about them again. But right now they feel very important.

Cameron: And they just find it in the woods. [both laugh]

Deepa: It – yeah. Yeah, nothing makes any sense.

Cameron: Yeah, I don't have an answer for that.

Deepa: I didn't think you would. But it's weird. Yeah, the bracelets. I don't know. Tracking the Aria Is A theory – I was just cheating a little bit because I was – I've been using our twitter to try and, like, find interesting PLL content to retweet. [laughs]

Cameron: Oh, good job!

Deepa: So I read this article that was like, why, you know, people believed that Aria was A, for a long time, and most of it was not very compelling. And I think there was a lot – like I don't think it actually got into the depth of the real Aria Is A theory, because I remember reading much more interesting, from fans. But anyway, one of the things they did say was that in this episode, when Aria is talking to Ella about Alison and Toby, right? Because – okay, they think that Ali and Toby were having a relationship. And everyone's like, “Wow, she used to talk so much shit about that boy, she had us all fooled,” blah blah blah. And Aria’s like, “Yeah, it's really weird, and it’s weird to think that he did this to her.” And Ella tells Aria, “People aren't dolls. You can't just play with them and then put them back in the box.” And that’s apparently a big part of the Aria Is A theory? [laughing] Which is funny to me on multiple levels, because we have not actually gotten doll imagery yet, have we?

Cameron: No.

Deepa: I feel like we would have noticed if we've gotten PLL doll imagery even from the, like, A scenes at the end. I don't think we've gotten any dolls.

Cameron: We haven't. We would have talked about that.

Deepa: We would have talked – so maybe people think it's foreshadowing, like, when they went back and rewatched?

Cameron: Oh.

Deepa: I thought that was funny.

Cameron: I thought that line was funny, but I didn't think it meant anything.

Deepa: Yeah. And it's – she's talking about Alison. She's not talking about Aria.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So, anyway, weird that that's part of the theory. But it was a good line, and, like, dolls are very important.

Cameron: They will become –

Deepa: They will be. [both laughing] Anyway. Yeah. So I was not – I was not convinced by that.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: I have to do some more digging on the original – like what fans actually were researching about the Aria Is A theory, because I think this article is kind of garbage. But I did retweet it anyway! [both laugh] Listen. Going through the Pretty Little Liars hashtag on Twitter is hilarious because a lot of it is just, like, people who were kids when they watched this, realizing how fucked up Ezra and Aria are.

Cameron: Oh, shit!

Deepa: Like a lot of it is rewatches being like, “I was so into that, what the fuck?” It’s really sad. And awful. Aaaah! Like – I’m so sorry. We weren't kids when we watched it for the first time –

Cameron: We were not.

Deepa: We were already in our twenties. But I definitely as a kid and a teenager found, like, various adult-teenager relationships in fiction compelling. So I do get it. It's just like – ugh.

Cameron: And it's presented as okay! Like, it's presented as, you know, just something that happened.

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Cameron: Bad segue, but: outfits?

Deepa: [cracks up] Bad segue! I don't know what’s a good segue out of that. [both laugh] Yes, give me your outfit analysis.

Cameron: Some struggles.

Deepa: Ooh, actually, I want you to guess what I said was best outfit.

Cameron: Fuck, what?

Deepa: If you can’t it's okay, but I thought it would be funny!

Cameron: Okay, something that Spencer wore.

Deepa: [laughs] Which thing that Spencer wore? Do you know?

Cameron: Is it the first thing? With, like, a blazer?

Deepa: The belted pinstripe blazer, yes, I really liked it. [both laugh] Okay, good guess. It was good, right? I don’t know if it would be your favorite, but it was good.

Cameron: It was good. It was not my favorite. But I did struggle. I don't know, I feel like – I think it's easiest for me to do worst, or, like, worse category? [both laugh]

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Cameron: Because Aria had some disgusting necklaces, in, like multiple situations.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: One that I think was, like, a piece of fabric –

Deepa: A necklace?

Cameron: Yeah, it was just like loops of, like, maybe – I don't know. One that was like leather, but like dangly – dangly leather. [both laugh] But unfortunately, I – and she wore a horrible outfit to Camp Mona, but whatever.

Deepa: Horrible. Horrible. I want to know what you think about her outfit with the cheetah print cardigan.

Cameron: I don’t hate that! I was like, that looks like something I would have worn!

Deepa: I was pretty sure you wouldn’t hate that one! [both laugh]

Cameron: I was like, oh no!

Deepa: I don’t know if I hate it either. It feels like the side of Aria that's on the edge for me, but not actually that terrible. I did write it down because it's – like it's objectively ridiculous?

Cameron: Yes!

Deepa: But I don't know if it’s bad.

Cameron: Like…I used to wear jorts with tights.

Deepa: Jorts with tights, exactly. I'm sure you – I didn't know you then, but I'm sure you did.

Cameron: I owned, or still own, a lot of leopard print. It could have just happened, I don’t know! [both laugh]

Deepa: I did hate the tank top underneath. I thought the tank top underneath –

Cameron: It was too much.

Deepa: – was bad on its own, like, regardless of anything else. But yeah, I could see – I could see – the necklace for that was also weird.

Cameron: That was the leather one I think.

Deepa: That was the leather one, yes yes yes. Okay.

Cameron: But I had to give worst outfits to Emily!

Deepa: Which one??

Cameron: She had a butterfly shirt that was just disgusting.

Deepa: Okay. Sure. No, it was bad.

Cameron: It was really bad.

Deepa: I don’t think I was as viscerally impacted by it. [both laugh]

Cameron: Yeah, I was upset about it, I guess.

Deepa: Fair enough. Fair enough.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So you didn't give a best?

Cameron: I think I cheated.

Deepa: Did you say the Camp Mona hoodies?

Cameron: [laughing] No.

Deepa: What did you say?

Cameron: I said Ashley's pantsuit. [both laugh]

Deepa: That is cheating, we've established that that’s cheating!

Cameron: Okay, I'll choose another one then. Because I had three that I’m choosing from.

Deepa: Okay, okay.

Cameron: That was just like my number one outfit.

Deepa: It could be a Mona – it could be like a Mona outfit. But I don't think an adult.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: That’s where I want to draw the boundary.[both laugh] Or an Alison, right, like it could be anyone in their generation.

Cameron: So I did put the candy striper outfit in this, because it's just such a good look.

Deepa: It’s hilarious!

Cameron: And also, I really enjoyed Hanna's pajamas at the hospital.

Deepa: They were cute. Yeah. They were cute pajamas. And then, like, Mona goes and gives her a makeover. [laughs] Also, what I was thinking about after that is – the scene right after that is when Ali shows up, and I was just like, oh, like Mona made her look hot for Ali. [laughs] Because all of Ali’s interactions when she comes back are pretty gay, like, even with non-Emily people. [both laugh] Like the ones with Emily are especially gay.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: But, like, we're gonna get to her dancing with Spencer in Radley at some point, so.

Cameron: Oh my god, yes!

Deepa: Incredible! [laughs] And saying the, “They said that we were doing this for practice for boys, but the practice was so much more fun.”

Cameron: Oh my god. And, like, “I always loved you the most.”

Deepa: To Emily, yup, yup.

Cameron: Yeah, it’s just, like, oh my god!

Deepa: She’s just so gay when she comes back, yeah. [both laugh] I also just want to clarify to our listeners that when we – I feel like anyone who’s gay or bi knows this, but when we say gay, we mean bi, because Alison is bi. But. We’re not trying to negate her – we’re not trying to erase her bisexuality.

Cameron: No!

Deepa: It’s a general term, gay.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I feel like I was reading a lot about bi erasure this week that was shitty. So. Um. Where was I going with that? Oh, yeah. I gave mine to Spencer belted pinstripe blazer. I did give worst to Aria’s Camp Mona outfit, because – I think what pissed me off about it is that parts of it would have been okay alone?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like, okay, I hated this shirt underneath. The shirt underneath was bad. The vest would have been okay with something else. The belt on top would have been okay with something else.

Cameron: Mhm.

Deepa: And maybe the maroon boonie – boonie? Beanie!

Cameron: [laughing] Boonie!

Deepa: – maroon beanie would have been good with something else. But all together I hated it.

Cameron: It was really bad. And I think at one point she is wearing the hoodie, the Camp Mona hoodie, and she takes it off, and then there’s the beanie underneath!! [both crack up]

Deepa: Why would you – [laughing] So funny, oh my god. [gasps] See, that's a better Mona – oh my god, I'm sorry, I'm saying so many different things – that's a better Aria Is A theory moment. She's the first one to, like, have a black hoodie on and take it off dramatically, you know?

Cameron: That’s true.

Deepa: Better than her mom talking to her about dolls. [laughs]

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: My other contender for – well, I was just confused by an outfit Emily wore? It's the last outfit I think we see her wearing the second episode. She's wearing a jean – at school, she’s wearing a jean jacket, and what looks like just like a plain white t-shirt underneath. And it looks gay and nice, I liked it. Simple.

Cameron: But it’s not a simple plain white t-shirt.

Deepa: I don't even know what I think about it, I just was confused about the lacy shirt pocket. [laughs]

Cameron: Yeah, it seemed to have had some stuff going on in the back?

Deepa: Oh, I didn't notice. I noticed the shoulders that were lacy, which is, like, sort of normal, but I didn't notice the back. I was too distracted by the shirt pocket. [both laugh]

Cameron: So I think the back correspondent with the short pocket.

Deepa: Okay, the same lacy…

Cameron: Doesn't make it better. But.

Deepa: No. Well, and I feel like they chose that for Emily, because they think that's, like, a femme gay option, but I just don't know if it was. It was gayer when I thought it was just a plain white t-shirt. Or even a fitted t-shirt, but not, like – the shirt pocket was throwing me. I didn't even hate the shoulders. It was just the shirt pocket. [both laugh] But it wasn't bad enough to get worst. [pauses] We always forget that Tanner, and – what’s the guy’s name, Gabe something?

Cameron: Holbrook.

Deepa: Holbrook, thank you! We always forget that they're not feds, and I think it's because we do get real feds in this. So I just wanted to point that out. We got actual FBI. But I don't think they stick around for very long.

Cameron: Oh, yeah.

Deepa: We do get them seeing the Ali – what they don't know yet is the Ali and Ian video. And it did make me really sad when Emily said, “Oh, they're at the Kissing Rock.” I was like, oh, like your memory  of Ali and the Kissing Rock is…not this.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, so I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, but just two random things.

Cameron: I guess I thought they gave us the Ian too quickly?

Deepa: That's true.

Cameron: No build-up to it.

Deepa: Because we already got you Ian on the tree, so they could have stretched it out a little longer.

Cameron: Well, I think we got the tree after they showed us the viewer, movie.

Deepa: Oh, you're right, they showed it the first episode – the end of the first episode, right?

Cameron: Yes.

Deepa: Because the end of the second episode is A using the tree for firewood, which is incredible.

Cameron: I loved that.

Deepa: Ah, Mona has such flair. Okay, yes, I agree. I agree. They give it to us too quickly. Ian just got back.

Cameron: And he's already just everywhere doing things with everyone.

Deepa: Despite the fact that we get the Ian part so quickly, we are still gonna see that video like five hundred times.

Cameron: [laughs] Yeah.

Deepa: So yeah, maybe it's good they didn't stretch it out even more. [laughs] We're gonna see – we're gonna see so many different portions of it, right? Like right now, we've just seen Ian’s face. Then we're gonna see the part that, like, supposedly, is supposed to seem like she's dead. And then we're gonna see that she was – you know?

Cameron: Oh my god.

Deepa: There’s going to be plenty of that video, Cameron.

Cameron: [both laugh] You're right, my – yeah. Complaining about the wrong things.

Deepa: Another question that I don't think you're going to have an answer to: why does Noel Kahn also want to lie around with Aria and watch old movies as a date? They have just started dating. Why, why is – [sighs] I am all for lying around and watching movies – not necessarily old movies, but that kind of thing – but, like, you've just started dating. You're not going out and doing fun stuff? Like you're not in a pandemic, go out and do things!

Cameron: I wrote that down too. I wrote that down specifically about the old movies because I was like, Noel!!

Deepa: Fair. Fair. That is, no, everyone in this town – I think they just got, like, too – I think they just were imprinted on this one movie theater that only shows old movies, so they think that's all there is, you know.

Cameron: Fair. Yeah.

Deepa: Like the part of the part of our city where I grew up in only has, like, a movie theater that used to only play months-later movies. And that's, like, it's thing. But it wasn't old black-and-white movies. It was second run movies, you know? So you could go there for really cheap, get $3 tickets, for, I don't know, seeing Chicken Run three months after it came out when I was a kid or whatever. [laughs]

Cameron: And you don't think that impacted you psychologically.

Deepa: It probably did, but in, like, a not harmful way. It just made me less worried about seeing movies on time. [both laugh] I can wait!

Cameron: It taught you patience! Wild.

Deepa: This is going to get released a lot later, so this is going to seem outdated, but we are – this week that we're recording is when the Screen Actors Guild just went on strike, at the same time as the Writers Guild –

Cameron: Strike! Strike! Strike!

Deepa: – which is amazing! Love strikes. Everyone should go on strike. But I do love a lot of the memes that are out there, like, oh, the movie people think that we're all going to get really pissed because we don't have stuff to watch, and everyone's like, “No, I have this backlog of things I've been meeting to watch for fucking ever, we can last this out.” [laughs] Yeah, I agree!

Cameron: Yeah, we have to rewatch Pretty Little Liars for the fourth time.

Deepa: [laughing] Exactly!! We’re fine!

Cameron: [laughing] We're busy.

Deepa: Exactly. So, you know, this podcast is in support of the strike.

Cameron: Yes, we have to come out…

Deepa: I don't know if we're also saying, like SAG Strong like we were saying WGA Strong. But, strike! 

Cameron: Strike for sure.

Deepa: When Mona was angry at Hanna, she was like, “We were best friends. Now you're just somebody that I used to hang out with.” And I was like, did Gotye steal that from Mona? Because I don't think that song had come out yet! [laughs]

Cameron: I have shocked face right now.

Deepa: [singing] “But you didn’t have to cut me off…”

Cameron: Wow! [both laugh] Brilliant.

Deepa: I don't know if that's even how you pronounce his name, but Gotye, that artist is watching PLL. Yeah. Getting some song ideas.

Cameron: Hot take!

Deepa: Getting one-hit wonder ideas. [both laugh]

Cameron: Jesus Christ.

Deepa: Now I'm gonna make that a Mona and Hanna song.

Cameron: Whoa! I like that.

Deepa: That was my last thought.

Cameron: I was thinking we should probably wrap up soon. [both laugh]

Deepa: Yes. Yes. Good call.

Cameron: Yeah, who wants to sign off?

Deepa: Wait, wait! You're missing an essential portion of the podcast, Cameron. Do you have a chickpea recipe?

Cameron: Oh my god!

Deepa: How could you forget??

Cameron: Okay, I had – I tried one recently, but I didn't really like it. So I guess I can talk about it.

Deepa: [bursts out laughing] Okay, sure! An anti-recipe recommendation.

Cameron: Nooo, I think I just, like – I want to be a person who soaks beans.

Deepa: I see. Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: But I don't know if that's who I am. So I tried to – so I did. I soaked beans, and then I cooked beans, and it took –

Deepa: Question: was it either the black chickpeas or the mini chickpeas?

Cameron: It was the black chickpeas. So maybe this will be different with mini chickpeas, it'll be a little bit faster, maybe, question mark? And it just took forever, and I think they were still little al dente when I decided to eat them. [both laugh] But I made this fennel-red onion salad with them – that was pretty good, like it was fresh and nice with a bunch of parsley.

Deepa: Okay. Parsley!

Cameron: Yeah, I just – they were too al dente. So maybe I just need to try it again.

Deepa: You can share the recipe and assume that most people are going to make it with canned beans.

Cameron: Yeah, that's smart. Okay, then I can share the recipe. [laughs]

Deepa: If you liked the other portions of the recipe, why not?

Cameron: No, I love fennel.

Deepa: You love fennel. [both laugh] You also – I think that if you want to be a dried beans person, I do think you need a pressure cooker. Like I just don't – it doesn't have to be an Instant Pot, but you need some kind of pressure cooker. I just don't think it's worth it otherwise.

Cameron: [sighs] Yeah.

Deepa: Stovetop chickpeas sounds like a nightmare to me.

Cameron: It took so long.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: So yeah, I sort of have a recipe that I'm sort of endorsing. [both]

Deepa: Incredible. I like the idea of a chickpea fennel salad, especially right now when it's really hot and all I want to eat is cold things.

Cameron: Yeah! It was a nice little not-super-complicated – except I made it complicated – thing. [both laugh]

Deepa: Was there anything about the black chickpeas – I guess maybe you don't know because you were so caught up in the al dente-ness – but was there anything about them that you liked differently from other chickpeas?

Cameron: No, I think I couldn't get to that point, even. I was like, I didn't soak or cook these long enough, or something.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: So I'll try again, listeners, and let you know. But it will be a lot of episodes from now, probably. [both laugh]

Deepa: Fair. Dried beans last a long time. You can take a break.

Cameron: They’re in my cupboard.

Deepa: You can take some space. Maybe get a pressure cooker.

Cameron: I just don't see that happening for me. I just don't know if I'm –  yeah.

Deepa: Then you might not be a dried beans person. Yeah.

Cameron: I saw this TikTok that was like the band Muna, and they have, I guess, differing opinions on if you should soak beans or not. [both laugh] I can't remember who was pro and who was con, but it made me laugh.

Deepa: That’s really funny. I mean…I can tell you that I don't always soak beans if I'm going to pressure them. I just am like – I could, or I could pressure cook them for longer, and it works the same.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Like some people will say that you get more flavor out of it, or whatever, but I actually don't know if I agree with that. So. Because I grew up with – I grew up with a stovetop pressure cover that my mom used, which is basically the same as an Instant Pot, except an Instant Pot is automatic, that's all. So. [laughs] Cool. We got our chickpea discourse in. And kind of a recipe recommendation.

Cameron: Kind of!

Deepa: Okay, let's wrap this up. [both laugh] Should we both actually try to say the same thing at the same time?

Cameron: We could.

Deepa: Okay, let’s do it. Three, two, one…

Both: Act normal, bitches!