Don't Forget the Chickpeas

Episodes 1.04 & 1.05: "Different Is Good"

• Deepa & Cameron • Season 1 • Episode 3

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In this episode, we covered 1.04, “Can You Hear Me Now”, and 1.05, “Reality Bites Me”. We get our first Alex (yay!) and a new dad (boo). We discuss Toby’s masculinity, Mona’s love for Hanna, shoes on furniture, and strategies to cope with watching Ezra’s scenes. We also spend way too much time talking about Homecoming even though the dance doesn’t happen in either of these episodes. “Follow me, end up like me!”

Episode Transcript: Read it on Buzzsprout!

Chickpea Recipe: Deepa’s Chana Masala!

Corrections:

  • This will come up in the next podcast episode, but Deepa and Cameron are both incorrect in saying that Melissa doesn’t give out the Homecoming Queen crown in the Homecoming episode
  • Deepa’s also incorrect in saying that Maya won’t be around for a while after these episodes
  • Cameron briefly mentions a reference made to Dissociative Identity Disorder in one of the episodes, but uses the older term “Multiple Personality Disorder”

Foot Vision: An artist’s rendering (so that we don’t have to show our actual feet on the internet)

Fashion Analysis: Our best and worst outfits!

Literary Analysis:

  • Deepa tried to find a good disability studies analysis of To Kill A Mockingbird but the best thing Deepa could find was this book that appears to have two interesting essays on the topic (chapters 13 and 14)

Things We Referenced Only Sort of Related to PLL:

  • In case you didn’t know, the actor who plays Ezra’s college friend Hardy (who was later one of the stars of Suits) is married to Troian Bellisario

Things We Referenced Completely Unrelated to PLL:

Find us on Twitter: @chickpeas_pod

If you enjoyed this podcast (or even if you didn't), please consider donating to help Rozan and Aboud, two young people in Gaza, escape genocide with their families. You can find multiple donation options at oldcowcreative.com!

 [A note for transcript readers: we are laughing pretty much constantly throughout the podcast, as well as engaging in a lot of cross-talk – oops – so we’ve tried to name that only when it feels especially relevant!]

Deepa: Hello, and welcome to episode three of Don't Forget the Chickpeas, a Pretty Little Liars podcast. I’m Deepa.

Cameron: I'm Cameron.

Deepa: And today we're discussing episodes four and five of the first season. Four is called “Can You Hear Me Now?” And five is “Reality Bites Me.” 

Cameron: Yeah. 

Deepa: I don't know what that means.

Cameron: I don't know what that means, either. So we're in this together. 

Deepa: Did you have anything that you wanted to start us off with? Not to put you on the spot.

Cameron: Wow! [laughs] I mean, I have so many thoughts, always. I think…where do we start? I guess this had a lot of Ezra moments, these two, and the way - I was thinking about the ways we've coped with that in the past. And I was thinking about making our hands like how his hands are - 

Deepa: Imitating his hand gestures. 

Cameron: Imitating his hand gestures. And also Foot Vision. 

Deepa: Foot Vision! We would just, like, lift our feet to our eye level to block out his face while we were sitting on the couch. Neither of those were super sustainable for very long, but we enjoyed them while we did that.

Cameron: It took the focus away from -

Deepa: I think it did, yeah. Oh my god, too many Ezra moments. And just like - yeah, just the reiteration of Aria as like the central character, because her relationship is getting the most attention, and it's the only one that's like fully formed at the moment really. Right? Like Emily and Maya are still…

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And also, just, like, already boring! Already so boring. They already spend all their time in Ezra's apartment, just, like -

Cameron: Oh my god!

Deepa: Just eating pasta. Which, I love pasta! But -

Cameron: Do you know what the eating pasta out of the tupperware on the floor made me think of?

Deepa: Oh no, do I? “On the floor” is throwing me. No, I don't. 

Cameron: “On the floor” is not necessarily important. But it was just in Elite when they're just always eating the weird microwave pasta. 

Deepa: Yes! Oh my god. 

Cameron: Mac and cheese, maybe? 

Deepa: I can't remember anyone's name except Samu. But Samu makes the mac and cheese for what's her face? The rich girl? 

Cameron: Yeah. For the rich girl! 

Deepa: Oh my god! There's a reference that actually makes total sense to link to PLL because it's another teen murder show. I mean, in a lot of ways, it's much more like How To Get Away With Murder, like they basically stole their concept. But still teens and secrets. Yeah, Elite. We watched like three whole seasons of that? Maybe four? 

Cameron: Yeah. Yeah, I was just like, “Ugh, the pasta. The stale pasta.”

Deepa: Terrible macaroni and cheese, which is also what Aria said - that what she was going to make was terrible mac and cheese.

Cameron: And it's, like, is it supposed to be charming that he’s inept? 

Deepa: Yeah, I think so. I think he's supposed to be adorkable.

Cameron: Ahhhhh! I haven't heard that word in ages.

Deepa: Exactly! Because it’s from like 2010!

Cameron: That’s upsetting.

Deepa: I will say Aria is officially vegetarian because her mom asks her about veggie burgers in one scene. 

Cameron: Yes, when she is making “chicken oh my gosh”? 

Deepa: “Chicken oh my gosh”! Is this a white people thing, Cameron? 

Cameron: It's not from my culture, but I did try to look it up.

Deepa: Did you? What did you find?

Cameron: People are like, “Did you mean chicken paprikash?” And I was like… I don't think so, because I don’t think that has carrots in it.

Deepa: I'm pretty sure she said "oh my gosh"! Yeah, you're right, carrots were a big part of it. 

Cameron: So I do not know. I'm sorry. 

Deepa: That’s fair. 

Cameron: I’ll be better for my culture.

Deepa: You can't be responsible for all white people knowledge.

Cameron: Thank you.

Deepa: I will absolve you of that.

Cameron: I mean, maybe it's just one of those things like your family has a thing that you called “chicken oh my gosh”.

Deepa: Which is, like, kind of cute if it were - yeah, I don't know. It is kind of cute. 

Cameron: It's kind of cute. 

Deepa: But yeah, it’s fine. It’s just funny because it makes you wonder what it is. 

Cameron: Chicken.

Deepa: It's… chicken! And it tastes like chicken. [laughs] One weird Ezra-Aria moment in his apartment was when there was a song playing, that, if you had the subtitles on, the first lyrics were “when I'm 21 she'll be 35?” I didn't see what the song was, but it went on like that. It was about this, like - I think it's a dude singing, and was about this big age gap. And I was just like, what? So they know what they're fucking doing, right? And we're reminded of that in the scene with fucking Suits guy/Spencer's husband. Not Spencer’s husband! Troian’s husband. Hardy. Right? Like they know exactly what they're doing and exactly what is wrong with it. And it's, like, titillating, not bad, right? Like, that's the whole point.

Cameron: Yeah. And he's like - Hardy's character is, you know, he's supposed to be, like, inappropriate and kind of wild. And he's like, “Bro, what are you doing?”

Deepa: Exactly. And he names exactly what the problem is, which is that he's her teacher and it doesn't matter how they met. And also, we do know how they met. 

Cameron: We know!

Deepa: Which is also not appropriate in any way. It’s the opposite of appropriate. It's like evil, actually. But yeah, so, Hardy being the voice of reason is very funny, obviously. But why? Just why? They know exactly what they're doing wrong. Why are they so into it? Why?

Cameron: There's no - is it just to like - because there were so many conversations and fights about what's childish, what's mature? 

Deepa: Yes. Yes.

Cameron: And I was just like, this is disgusting. I don't want to be a part of this.

Deepa: So many. We - I didn't realize that we got into it so quickly, but so many like “I don't see you as a child”. Like? “Do you think - do you think I'm a child? Is that why this is happening?” Blah blah blah. “You're acting like a child!” It's like, why do we keep using the word child wrong? Like you are one, and he isn't. 

Cameron: And he isn’t. And those are facts. 

Deepa: And that’s how it works. It’s objective. 

Cameron: And he's ruining her education, obviously. But he's, like, ruining other students’ education! 

Deepa: He's, like - yeah, he's being hostile to another student who had a very fair point.

Cameron: Oh, my god, like - 

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Ugh, I don't want to spend the whole time - maybe let's just get our Ezra shit out right now, because, like, it's just very up here for me. 

Deepa: Yes. These episodes had a lot of him, so it's fair. Yeah. But yeah, let's get it out of the way.

Cameron: So, they have like seventeen fights in the amount of these two episodes. 

Deepa: So many fights. And somehow, they don't break up. 

Cameron: They - yeah, they do not. And there's just like - weird him, like, giving her advice about her family. 

Deepa: Yep. 

Cameron: That is like what? I don't know - 

Deepa: Well, and it's it starts off kind of funny because - it starts off with him - okay, if we’re taking Ezra as an isolated - if we’re take this scene as an isolated incident, and not the entirety of Ezra, originally his advice doesn't seem terrible, because he's basing it off of his experience with his parents, not his experience as an adult talking to a child, right? So he's like, “This happened with my parents, so I can relate to you.” But then he turns it into this, like, “you'll understand when you get older” kind of thing, right? So, it's very strange, because Aria is right that number one, her family is different – like, all families are different - but also this whole like, “You don't know better,” because like, I don't know, because “you're a child”, but then I’m treating you not like a child?

Cameron: Yeah. 

Deepa: Also, just weird mentions of his family, because we haven't learned that much about his family yet, and the fact that he's taking any kind of lesson from his family's dysfunction, given how he thinks about them, and how he separated himself from them, is also weird to me.

Cameron: Yes, and telling her that there are things that might be going on that she doesn't know about, which could be true, but also like, why are you talking like that, what are you even saying? 

Deepa: You don't have the evidence for that either.

Cameron: You don't know anything. And they leave it. They are just, yeah, cooking disgusting noodles together constantly -

Deepa: And also like - wait. When did she tell him about this? Like they haven't - have they just been hanging out a lot? Because this is the first time she goes to his apartment to go inside, right? 

Cameron: To go inside. But she went there after the gallery. 

Deepa: She went after the gallery. Yeah. That's true. 

Cameron: And told him about this, basically. 

Deepa: Okay, okay, yes. 

Cameron: So he has a little context. 

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. I forgot about that. 

Cameron:  Oh god! It was just like, he kept just being like, “Are you sure you can't stay?” and her being like, “No.” 

Deepa: “I have to go talk to my mom.”

Cameron: “I have to go to my home. I'm in school. I'm a teenager.” Like. I don't know. Like, gross!

Deepa: So gross. So gross. 

Cameron: I think we're supposed to be the maddest that A caused a fight, right, between them, and not at like all this other shit of just them existing as a couple. 

Deepa: Exactly. And, oh god! His whole speech at that scene where he's like, “I thought I could trust you. I thought you understood how serious this was for me, and like I could trust you not to tell your little friends”, or whatever. Like this is a sixteen-year-old! What?

Cameron: Disgusting.

Deepa: Totally valid if she did tell her friends, which she has not.

Cameron: She hasn't, and I'm shocked. 

Deepa: Further isolating Aria as always. 

Cameron: Yeah, just that. She's not mature enough because she told someone about, oh god -

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. And he's not at all worried about the implication of that message, which clearly sounds like a blackmail-y thing, right? Like, it's like -

Cameron: It's a threat!

Deepa: Yeah. It’s a threat. 

Cameron:  So that's where we leave those two. Do we have any lasting Ezra complaints?

Deepa: Yes. At the end of whichever episode they argue over Boo Radley - 

Cameron: Oh god.

Deepa: - when she comes to his apartment and yells at him. And then he's like, “Yeah, you're right”, and she's like, “I am?” And the only thing he says is, “I don't know anything about you.” I mean, I'm sure we're supposed to infer that they have a conversation about all the other things that he did wrong, but what a weird way to end the scene on. Like, “Yeah, you're right. I don't know anything about you”, slam the door shut so we can talk more? Or have sex? Unclear. 

Cameron: Ew. Gross. Well, it was like she was saying, “You know, you don't know anything about my family. You don't know anything about me.” And he was just like, “Yeah, I don't know anything about you.” 

Deepa: Yeah. 

Cameron: And that's the only thing he admitted to, which is what you just said, but like…okay, bro.

Deepa: Yeah, there’s so many other things, which are like the weird defensiveness in class, and like all those things, right? Like, he didn't mention any of that until later. 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Ezra, Ezra, Ezra. I hate him so much. I hate him so much. I hate him so much. I think I’m getting to the point where I'm hating the actor too…or have actually gotten to that point a long time ago. But I'm like, how can you play that role for many years? 

Cameron: Years! 

Deepa: And have it be normalized, right? Like -

Cameron: Uuuughh. 

Deepa: I just remember when we were watching it mostly live - which, of course, we never watched the first season live, because I think we'd already had three seasons come out by the time we started watching it. But even then, the attitudes around Ezra and Aria were different, like, I remember, in terms of reading reviews - particularly Heather Hogan’s reviews, of course - it wasn't quite so - people weren't quite so angry about it, you know? And obviously there is a lot of the fandom who is never angry about it, like, it's one of the biggest ships in the Pretty Little Liars fandom, but it's kind of astonishing to me how normalized it was, even in terms of people who are talking about the show, like, including Heather Hogan. Which, like, I'm sure her opinions on it are more pronounced now. But I remember when we get to Ezra getting shot, there was - Heather wrote – and I don't mean to pick on Heather Hogan! It’s just that who I was reading that was actually talking about Pretty Little Liars because I wasn't really in the larger fandom - but she was writing, basically, like, “I really respect the actor who plays Ezra” - and this is why this came to mind – “and that he said a lot about gay rights”, apparently? Cool. 

Cameron: Gay rights! 

Deepa: “But we just have to acknowledge that at this point, Ezra/Aria is super fucked up.” And I was like at this point?! This is, like, season four or whatever - season five, maybe, when they have the New York episode. And it's fucked up at that point because he's been stalking them, I guess? And that he gets redeemed so easily from stalking them? Not from, like, all of the other five seasons of the show? Anyway. So, continual - continual hatred of Ezra and anger about it.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. And it continues to be a thing in other teen shows. Including Elite.

Cameron: So many teen shows.

Deepa: Was there - I don't know if there is a teacher in Elite, but there are definitely adults and teenagers, I'm pretty sure.

Cameron: I don't feel like we ever saw a teacher in Elite, like, long enough for them to develop a relationship with a student. [both laugh]

Deepa: That's very true. There just weren’t teachers around. They’re just rich kids! That's accurate.

Cameron: Oh, god, okay, I guess we need to get to our second predator of the episodes: Wren made an appearance.

Deepa: I think this is the last appearance we get of him for a while. So that's good, that - 

Cameron: That is good.

Deepa: This is just a small point, but - I know that they're trying to make him sound like as upper-crust British as possible, and making him use words that, like, read as more British than American - but I find it incredibly weird that he looks at a character played by a multiracial actress (who the show was not acknowledging as multiracial, because they think that Spencer is white - all of her biological family, such that they are, are white) and says something along the lines of, “Your face is very fair.” Right? 

Cameron: Ahhh! 

Deepa: Yeah, I was going to be, like, maybe I'm reading too much into it, because in British English “fair” does mean beautiful, but it also means light-skinned. It also means - it's also a colorist thing! So it's, just, like, really, that was a choice. 

Cameron: That's very much a choice. Yeah, you can't separate it from that. Yeah. Oh, I just - when you said, “upper-crust”, like trying to use language, is that why they say “motor-court”?

Deepa: Oh my god! 

Cameron: What the fuck is a motor-court? Is it just a motel? Great.

Deepa: It’s a motel. Which is funny because I don't know if they had motels in England before America, like, I think they just made up their own word for it. Which, yeah, motels are a very American thing.

Cameron: I guess. Yeah, that makes sense, we would do that -

Deepa: It’s because of the driving and the highway -

Cameron: The driving. 

Deepa: Yeah. So you had to have places that not only you could go stay, but your car could go stay.

Cameron: In the motor-court. 

Deepa: Yeah. I don't think people were, like, driving up to the pub in England and parking their car right alongside it. 

Cameron: Oh my gosh. Yeah. But I was just like - so he's wasted, and he’s showing up to confront…Spencer’s father?

Deepa: Father, yes. Also, can I note: when she's like, “I thought you were a burglar,” he was like, “Well, I was trying to call you, but you blocked my calls.” So, you broke into her house? Instead of assuming that she didn't want to talk to you??

Cameron: And, also, that means she didn't have his number, because she was blocking all unknown numbers.

Deepa: Yeah, you’re right! 

Cameron: So that’s funny to me.

Deepa: That is very funny, yeah. Where did he get her number from, Melissa? 

Cameron: Melissa, ew! [crosstalk] “Here’s Spencer’s number!” Oh god.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can we sort of like - do you have more stuff on Wren? Because I was gonna segue a little bit -

Cameron: No, I just wanted to complain a little bit, but I don't really have much insight. 

Deepa: No, you can always complain about Wren. He’s very silly. And a predator! But, like, that scene included some more about Hasting family dynamics, right? Which we also got a lot of, mostly with Peter, but we got some description of Melissa too, of course - the whole essay thing. It was really funny that at one point Spencer says, “It looks like North and South Korea between us. But she's my sister,” which - I think I probably told you this before, but my sister and I once had a fight where we used that exact metaphor and didn't speak for like four months -

Cameron: Months!?

Deepa: - and then solved it by another extended geopolitical metaphor. I was in college at the time studying international relations, so I think that’s maybe why. But that just took me back.

Cameron: Wow! Maybe we should give you the Golden Orchid. 

Deepa: Also, my insistence that, like, Melissa is ridiculous for having - for treating Spencer as on the same level as her - I guess I'm sometimes guilty of that. I still don't think I'm as bad as Melissa, but I did have a fight with my sister where we didn't speak for four months, once, where I was an adult, and she was a teenager. [laughs]

Cameron: Oh my god! Yeah, we get a lot of Peter in this. 

Deepa: So much Peter. Oh, actually, can we skip to worst parent, just because I couldn't figure out a worst parent? And then we go back to Peter? 

Cameron: I chose Tom. 

Deepa: I just said, “all the dads”. The dads were all terrible!

Cameron: Every single dad!

Deepa: I couldn't decide! Like Tom was pretty bad, but so was Peter, and Byron continues to be bad, right? Like. I don't know. I don't know. Okay, we can go back to Tom later, then, because I will agree with - since I just picked all of them -

Cameron: Every dad which, like, that makes sense. I just - it was our first time seeing Tom, and, yeah, he just gave a terrible impression, obviously.

Deepa: It’s true, but Peter almost got Alex fired. So, like, if it had just been the game shit, that's whatever - that's Hastings bullshit, I don't really care. But almost getting Alex fired? Also, hi Alex! You’re cute.

Cameron: Hi Alex! This is a very silly question, but why is Spencer's only really likeable love interest the same name as her evil twin? Like what's up with that? They ran out of A names?

Deepa: They did run out of A names! [both laugh] Oh my god! I've never thought of that. I've never thought of that. They also needed a name that was gender-neutral, just, because, like, “Spencer” is. So yeah, I guess, Alex. I did not think of that. That's so funny.

Cameron: No, it just came to me watching it this time.

Deepa: Was that secretly Alex? No, I’m kidding. 

Cameron: I don't know. We don't know. 

Deepa: No British accent. Yeah, I mean, I do think we have the classic thing here of Peter knowing exactly how horrible he is, and Tom not so, which has always been sort of our barometer for how we pick a worse parent. Because I do think Peter could have had more impact if Alex had gotten fired, but he also doesn't give a shit. Whereas Tom’s like, “Look at me being a good dad. I'm here to support you, Hanna.” Like -

Cameron: That was, I think, what did it for me. He was like, “Is this, maybe - are you acting out because, you know, your friend died?” And then it was like -

Deepa: “Nothing to do with me!”

Cameron: - and then he, like, listened to her for two seconds, and then his fucking fiancée and soon-to-be stepdaughter show up, and he didn't give her any warning - 

Deepa: He didn’t give her any warning, and then he humiliates her in front of them because she makes some sarcastic jokes. 

Cameron: Made a slightly inappropriate joke. Who cares? It was funny.

Deepa: Honestly, it wasn’t even that bad! Like - it was funny, and it wasn't targeting any one person either. It was just, like, you know, she was caught off-guard -

Cameron: Witty banter, yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. 

Cameron: Oh, that - I just hated it. And I just - I think the excitement with which she approached the interactions with him, I think, made me weigh it more towards that. 

Deepa: Yeah, you’re convincing me. 

Cameron: I’m not trying to! 

Deepa: No, I did have Tom written down first until we got to the Peter country club story, and then I was just like, “Hmm.”

Cameron: No, that was also very bad.

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, just like - and even the - even the part where she's talking about how they go to the theme park and walk around, like, when she tells that story to her friends, you can see that they're like, “Oh, okay, Hanna, that doesn't sound like something special that your dad did?” That just sounds like a normal dad thing, but that he hasn't been around to do, and that he probably won’t continue, you know? You could see the look on their faces of, like, “Oh, I'm glad you liked that!”

Cameron: They’re nervous. 

Deepa: Yeah, that’s a low bar. “He asked you about your feelings” - he’s your dad!

Cameron: He’s your dad. I know, I think Spencer said, “Hanna and her dad is a Don't Ask, Don't Tell situation.” I laughed forever.

Deepa: Also, what she said that in response to was someone asking whether they've even seen each other since he left, which is definitely more than a year, because she said he hasn't come since she lost the weight. So like, what? 

Cameron: Fucked up.

Deepa: He lives in Maryland, apparently. That's not that far from Philadelphia. 

Cameron: The East Coast is very small.

Deepa: The East Coast is very small. Maryland is very small, and it's not that – ugh, being the worst parent, I guess.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Did you have the best parent?

Cameron: I was going - I mean, I think I chose Ashley.

Deepa: I did, too. But I was - it was like a question mark. 

Cameron: She was being a little chaotic, and Ella, was, I think, handling the situation relatively well. 

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: I am - I remembered in my mind, for some reason, that she blamed Aria for holding that secret, but she didn’t at all.

Deepa: She didn’t at all. I think I remembered that too and was surprised by it the last time we watched, but this time I was ready for it.

Cameron: Okay. 

Deepa: But definitely, definitely, somewhere in my memory was this idea that she blamed her. And it's very clear that she doesn't, that she is, like, horrified that Aria had to keep the secret for a year.

Cameron: For a year!

Deepa: I think the only time we get sort of an implication is when she hands the letter to Aria at the end of the episode. But that's it. Like, that's her being in shock, which is fair.

Cameron: Yeah, no, very fair. I think it was just because they were yelling and not really communicating with their children, or like just sort of M. I. A. So that's why I didn't give it to them. But I think Ella did a pretty okay job.

Deepa: What was Ashley doing that was chaotic? Now I'm trying to remember - other than dressing up for the dinner with Tom, that was just sad. 

Cameron: That was sad. I think she was just kind of, like, giving Hanna advice based on her and Tom's relationship.

Deepa: Right, right, with Sean.

Cameron: Yeah. So, it was just like, “Don't give him too much space. I wish I would have kind of communicated more to your father.” So that was kind of like, okay. But mostly she was just there. And, you know, she's usually there and interested in her daughter's life and trying to be supportive. But that - I was like, okay, well, classic Ashley.

Deepa: Honestly, it wouldn't be bad advice if you didn't link it to that, right? Like, you know, be open about how you feel, and unless he asks for space, like, obviously give it if that's what you need in this. But you haven't talked. So yeah, you know. Maybe talk. But yeah, relating it to Tom was weird. 

Cameron: It's just a little weird. 

Deepa: Also another mark down for Tom is in that situation, if you realize that Ashley is all dressed up, why wouldn't you just last-minute be like, “Oh, recalibrating! This wasn't what I expected. But I'm here tomorrow, too, and I can have” - I guess he can't have Hanna time tomorrow, because he invited his fiancé and her daughter.

Cameron: I mean, I think he wanted to humiliate her as well. Right? 

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah. 

Cameron: I'm sure he didn’t make it clear that he only wanted to see Hanna, and I'm sure he was like, “We should do dinner or something” to Ashley, right?

Deepa: He fucking sucks. 

Cameron: And then was like, “Oh, we got our wires crossed, babe.”

Deepa: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Oh, she looked so good in that dress, 

Cameron: She looked so good! Yeah. I'm trying to hold myself more accountable to not choosing people outside the Liars as best dressed, but I was like, “Ah, the red dress!”

Deepa: I thought we decided the last time that we could?

Cameron: I know, but I was like - it seems kind of -

Deepa: I guess maybe when it's a parent - like maybe we can stick to the teens.

Cameron: Yeah, I was like, I shouldn't do that.

Deepa: Their fashion is different. What was your best dressed?

Cameron: I struggled.

Deepa: Because you didn't like things, or because you liked a lot of things?

Cameron: I didn't like things. I enjoyed Hanna's black or blue and white striped dress.  

Deepa: That was what I chose. 

Cameron: I thought that was really nice and very beachy and cute.

Deepa: That is what I chose. I like the belt. It was just one belt, unlike Aria. 

Cameron: One belt! 

Deepa: And it's weird that she wears that to school that day, but not to dinner with her dad. And she wears, like, a worse dress to dinner with her dad.

Cameron: I hated that outfit. 

Deepa: Maybe she was trying to look like a little girl again? Like it had almost like a tutu feel, right? So maybe she was trying to play that up because her dad is here, rather than looking like an adult. But then she took the blazer that Spencer said “wasn't her” …I have no idea. Anyway, I was sad. That dress was cute.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: This doesn't get best dressed, but I do want to note we got the first Emily off-the-shoulder shirt in the opening scene.

Cameron: I think this will be a theme, but it was like, so awkwardly constructed in a way that I was like…is that hip? What are they going for here?

Deepa: I never know what they're going for with Emily’s fashion. Like she's gorgeous, so anything will look fine. But, like, what? 

Cameron: Yeah, no.

Deepa: It makes no sense. My worst outfit was the one that Aria wears for half the episode, of the one where they go to the bar. It's like a weird -

Cameron: That was mine too! It was fugly! 

Deepa: I don't even know what it is! The dress is, like, plaid with spaghetti straps, and underneath that is a, like, shrug or a bolero - you know, something that's, like, furry? And then there's like a white shirt. I don't know. And she wears it for so long, and she wears it to go to this bar…

Cameron: And she has like a tooth necklace. 

Deepa: I didn’t even notice that! She has so many necklaces. I'm honestly kind of surprised that Hardy was like, “Yeah, she's hot,” because I was like, that dress is really ugly.

Cameron: That dress is fugly! It, like, has hobbit energy. It's just weird clothes you found lying around, and you put on your body.

Deepa: For folks listening, Cameron hates Lord of the Rings.

Cameron: I do. I do.

Deepa: Cameron hates Lord of the Rings. One time Cameron and another friend gave our other friend a birthday present, which was to watch one of the Lord of the Rings movies together. That was the present. And during the entire time they just made snide comments.

Cameron: No, we snapchatted.

Deepa: You snapchatted snide comments. This was in, like, 2014.

Cameron: And it was a success for me, because I have never been asked to watch Lord of the Rings again. [both laugh]

Deepa: Yeah, you got me there.

Cameron: Oops.

Deepa: We did make you watch an extended version, though? Or no, did we not?

Cameron: No, I just made a good joke about it.

Deepa: I think we were trying to. Yeah, you made a joke about the extended version of your dick, blah blah blah.

Cameron: Yeah, I’m funny.

Deepa: Anyway, Aria is wearing a hobbit dress, you know. I can kind of see that, I can, even though I love Lord of the Rings. 

Cameron: Just weird vibes, like, what are you doing?

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: Oh, man, like, I thought it was going to be her outfit from the first episode.

Deepa: The weird one with the denim skirt?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Which, also, there was midriff showing, but in the wrong place? Do you know what I mean? 

Cameron: Yeah! Because it was under some peplum.

Deepa: Exactly! Is this the first peplum that we've seen?

Cameron: I think so. I think so. 

Deepa: Yeah. Okay. Okay. 

Cameron: Except maybe Hanna's funeral dress has peplum or someone -

Deepa: Okay, okay, that that sounds right. Yeah, thank you again for introducing me to the term “peplum”, because I didn't know there was a word for it. 

Cameron: That's important for this. 

Deepa: It’s very important for Pretty Little Liars. Yeah. So, there's peplum, and then underneath that there is slight midriff showing, and then the bad denim skirt that was really short, which is not the problem with it, but it, like, was disproportionate to the shirt right? Like it was because of the midriff, you know, like - the like portions were all wrong.

Cameron: Because it was like a tiny, tiny, cropped sweater on top of a little satin tank top that had peplum on it. 

Deepa: Is that what it was? I didn't realize it was layered. 

Cameron: I think it was layered, and it was like, oooh! It was bad. But then we saw the one in the second episode. So - 

Deepa: Yeah. Yeah, those are exactly the two that I have written down. So. I do have to say, although that one stuck out to me, it didn't horrify me, I think, as much as the next one -

Cameron: Fair. 

Deepa: I think the second one is like getting into - we're getting into Aria territory. Like she doesn't usually look frumpy, to be fair, that's usually Spencer’s deal. But in terms of the absurd layering, absurd jewelry - we are getting into, like, classic Aria territory soon.

Cameron: Yeah. A sign of things to come. 

Deepa: Exactly, a sign of every necklace, every earring. [sound in the distance of a ferry horn] Oh! That’s a ferry. Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron: Hi ferry! 

Deepa: Oh man.

Cameron: I think in these two episodes we get a very distinct time period, because we know they happen one day and then the next day. And we don't get points like that a lot.

Deepa: No, even though at one point in this show we are going to get three seasons stuffed into the time between Halloween and Christmas, we don't actually get told what/where each episode lands. Yes, you are correct. We don’t usually get time -

Cameron: Which I think is interesting because I don't - I mean, I guess I've never won a high school essay contest, but in my understanding, it'd be like a little more bureaucratically drawn out than that. 

Deepa: I think so too.

Cameron: Not, like, you get nominated one day, and you win the next day. 

Deepa: Contests have timelines. It's not like a rolling application - not just like, “This is great!”

Cameron: “Number One!”

Deepa: Also, back to the fact that I'm pretty sure Spencer - as, you know, a type A student or whatever - could have just - if she didn't bullshit the essay before, could have now bullshitted an essay to show her family, right? She didn't have to show them the essay that she submitted. She could have quickly typed one out, and maybe they would've been like, “How did this win the competition?” But they could have said that for the one she submitted too! With its “define revolution” in the first sentence. 

Cameron: Oh my god, we had to see it again. Maybe it's just the flash - in the, like, “previously on”. But I was like, oh, there we go.

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, no, it was terrible. Yeah. [laughs] Did you notice anything else from the two-day thing? Because I didn't really think very much about that. 

Cameron: Well, it was only when Hanna tells Ashley that Tom - that whatever her face is his fiancée now. And she was like, “Oh –” 

Deepa: She's like “last night.” 

Cameron: “I realized that last night, but then I was at Spencer’s, and I didn't see you this morning.”

Deepa: Yeah.

Cameron: And so, I don't think there were any other things that surprised me that existed in that period of time, because they're always just, like, having so many things happen to them in short periods of time. 

Deepa: So many things happen to them. Toby becomes a cop in like two minutes, like, yeah.

Cameron: No, I didn't think there was anything else of note. I guess we should probably talk about Toby?

Deepa: Yeah, yeah. Toby is in his “I'm sympathetic to him and like him” stage. We talked about this last week. We can like Toby right now.

Cameron: Oh, I thought we weren't supposed to like Toby, or we're just -

Deepa: I think we can like Toby. And still like, talk about what happens to him. Isn’t that what we said?

Cameron: I don't remember. I just – I was thinking about Toby's masculinity a lot in these couple episodes, because, like, he is bullied, he gets shaving cream in his locker - it seems complicated how to do that, but, you know, fine - and he's just very much a loner and an outsider. And I feel like maybe he gets some sort of validation in his, like, masculinity of, like, being a protector. Right? 

Deepa: Ooooh, interesting. Okay. 

Cameron: And I think he maybe takes it to terrible places. But like -

Deepa: Oh, yikes.

Cameron: That's what I was kind of thinking about in these episodes.

Deepa: No, that makes a lot of sense. Because, yeah - yeah, okay, I'm into this. 

Cameron: Good! Because I was just like, I need to do a little more analysis on Toby.

Deepa: No, you're right. You're right. We do need to – we need to be thinking of Toby as a continual character, not like two separate Tobies, while still being able to appreciate some of the qualities that he brings, like being a friend, because there aren’t many friends - 

Cameron: It’s true.

Deepa: - outside of the core friends. 

Cameron: So weird. 

Deepa: Sorry, side note, we will get back to Toby. But I did have a realization, which is that the ones who don't have friends are the ones who have siblings. So maybe that's why?

Cameron: Ohhhh.

Deepa: Aria and Spencer don't have friends. That's a real loss for Spencer, because Melissa and her are so all over the place. But at least, I guess, Aria has Mike? I don't know.

Cameron: They had some cute moments in these couple episodes.

Deepa: Yeah, there was something. Okay, back to Toby. So okay, the protector thing is definitely coming up for me when he, you know, attacks Ben for attacking Emily. Were there other things in these episodes that sort of struck that? I’m trying to remember what Toby was doing.

Cameron: No, I think it was just like - I was just thinking about the trajectory of that. But I think he - I don't know, is kind of tall and looming, and I - I don't know. I think he's maybe also protecting her secrets already, even though…

Deepa: Yeah. Which she doesn't really know, because she doesn’t know what he knows. But yeah, that's true. Yeah. And it is interesting how we start off with Toby - like I had forgotten about the whole “they like the same music, and he likes to draw”, and blah blah blah. [laughs] That did just remind me of Clueless a little bit?

Cameron: Oh, that's funny!

Deepa: Like the drawing on the notebook, and then bonding over that. I don't know if that was a direct reference, but I haven't thought about it before. But, so, kind of establishing him as an alternative, indie kind of kid, right? But then later, what we see Toby get into, especially after he gets his GED and leaves high school, like - digs into this masculinity idea more because he's starting as a construction laborer, then as a carpenter, right? 

Cameron: Mhm.

Deepa: Like - so he does kind of - and like his hair gets cut! Lots of changes to emphasize that more. 

Cameron: Many changes! 

Deepa: So I wonder where they decided to go away from the - maybe, maybe because he was going to be a major love interest, they went away from the sort of creepy school shooter vibe.

Cameron: School shooter vibe! I did say that. [both laugh]

Deepa: You did say that! I had the thought in this - tell me if I'm, like, way out of line with this. But I had the thought that - I mean, not having read To Kill a Mockingbird in a long time, and also realizing that there's a lot of ableism in the way this character is portrayed in To Kill a Mockingbird - but I was wondering about Boo Radley and Toby comparisons just in the ways that they're treated as like outsiders and creepy and like threatening, but also protectors, ultimately.

Cameron: Oh! Yeah, I also have not read To Kill A Mockingbird in a million years, but…

Deepa: Mostly just because they talk about Boo Radley so much in this episode, right, in the whole confrontation and everything. I don't know if I have more thoughts than that, but it was just - it came up for me.

Cameron: I think it's very interesting. I don't know enough to be like, yeah, for sure.

Deepa: I had to go look up - I had to go look up again like what his characterization is, and like I was remembering that he was, like, probably being characterized as autistic, or some unnamed thing that Harper Lee was like alluding to in an ableist way, right? Which is true, but which obviously isn't really there with Toby, but. Yeah, I don't know. I think when you said the protector thing that came up in my mind too, right, like he's not only exerting his masculinity, he's also redeeming himself by showing this protective side of him. That's what makes Emily really trust him because he comes to her rescue. 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: And that's what makes her trust him above what the other Liars think of him at this point, even though she's not able to articulate that to them. They know that it happened. But they don't - they're just like, “Oh, weird. Toby? Toby Cavanaugh?”

Cameron: “Toby Cavanaugh?” Yeah. [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh, Toby. Never kills the cop in his head.

Cameron: No, he doesn’t. Okay, is Catcher in the Rye going to be their next English book, or is he just reading that in his fun time?

Deepa: I think he's just reading Catcher in the Rye. I could be wrong about this, but I don't remember it being a plot point the way that like To Kill a Mockingbird is, or later, The Great Gatsby is. I don’t actually know if The Great Gatsby is a plot point. But it's definitely, like, an aesthetic point. 

Cameron: Yeah. 

Deepa: No, I think he's just reading Catcher in the Rye. I think you read Catcher in the Rye in ninth grade. So maybe he missed ninth grade because he got framed for the Jenna thing.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: So.

Cameron: I guess we should talk - there's not a lot of Jenna.

Deepa: No, in fact, is there any Jenna, or do they just talk about her? Okay? Oh, yes, in the dentist's building. 

Cameron: Hanna… Hanna's being bad. 

Deepa: Hanna’s being bad. God forbid that Jenna should see a therapist for all the trauma she's been through. 

Cameron: Oh my god! Or wear lipstick.

Deepa: Or wear lipstick! Yeah, we have the beginning of endless encounters where the Liars will completely invade her privacy and space, and she just has to deal with it, without announcing that they are, or that they're even there.

Cameron: Yep.

Deepa: Yeah. But she wears lipstick. So, you know. 

Cameron: So, like, probably is A, question mark? 

Deepa: And we know the name of the lipstick: it’s Jungle Red.

Cameron: Jungle Red!

Deepa: Because everyone knows names of lipsticks! [both laugh] So it's not Amber Rose. Or Amber Gold?

Cameron: I think it was Amber Rose. 

Deepa: Amber Rose was the one that Hanna was wearing. Okay, yeah. So she picked a different lipstick color than Ali. Okay. 

Cameron: I guess that makes sense.

Deepa: Oh my god! [both laugh]

Cameron: I had a couple Mona thoughts. We don't get much Mona during this. But I was thinking about her doing some things during this. So she emails just Hanna a picture of Emily, and Maya kissing. And is that just like testing the waters like to see what her reaction is? [both laughing] What is that, Mona? You’re a mess!

Deepa: [laughing] Oh my god, Mona! That's amazing. I have never thought about that before. I love it. Oh, Mona. “Just gonna send some pictures to my crush and see what she thinks…see if she’s weirded out by girls kissing…” [both laugh]

Cameron: Yeah, so that I was just cracking up. 

Deepa: That is incredible. I did – when Hanna has the conversation with Emily that Emily misinterprets, I did have very much the feeling of like, oh, here we are on the ally-to-bisexual journey that we’re very familiar with!

Cameron: [laughing] Yes. I do think it's so cute, though, when she's just like, “If there's someone that, like, is into you and makes you happy, like I'm super excited about that!” 

Deepa: I know, I know! 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: It is very cute. Yeah. Good job, Hanna. [both laughing] Wow! The Mona thing is incredible. Okay. She does also call in a song dedicated to Hanna!

Cameron: Right! Yes!

Deepa: Is this our new thesis that, like, the same way we discovered that Alison's driving force is Emily? Is this now our thesis for the first two seasons, that - I mean, it kind of makes sense, but we haven't articulated it that way before.

Cameron: I mean, we've, like, joked about Mona having a crush on Hanna a lot. 

Deepa: Yes, that part. Yeah. But like - yeah, I guess this is somewhat built into the show that, like, a lot of Mona’s friendship with Hanna was originally around trying to get in with them to be A, but also then she turns it into something where she's like, “No, I actually was friends with you,” blah blah blah, right? But yeah. Yeah, I love that. That’s amazing.

Cameron: I was just like – [laughs]

Deepa: Just dedicating songs and sending pictures. And then just, like, being in Spencer's closet – closet! 

Cameron: Being in Spencer’s closet! [both crack up] Filming girls!

Deepa: We have broken this wide open! [laughing] After joking about it for years. Not original.

Cameron: Not original.

Deepa: She was just hiding there forever, though, to be able to do that. Forever!

Cameron: Yeah. [laughs] Mona’s in the closet.

Deepa: Mona’s in the closet! Oh, where did she find the time?

Cameron: Yeah, like…it doesn't make sense. I know it's explained with her hyper-reality.

Deepa: It still doesn't make sense. It's like she needs to be in three places at once at various points. Later they may backfill that with like, “Oh, Lucas did this one thing for her,” which doesn’t make sense either.

Cameron: Okay, do we meet Lucas because they go to Virgin Teen Camp – not camp, meeting?

Deepa: Ohhh!

Cameron: Is that where we first meet Lucas?

Deepa: I thought we first met Lucas when they become Homecoming King and Queen and they take pictures. But you could be right, though, because there is a weird encounter at Virgin Camp – Virgin Club.

Cameron: It's not a camp. 

Deepa: It’s a club, it’s a club.

Cameron: Virgin Club, thank you. 

Deepa: Yeah, because she does have to act with him at Virgin Club. So maybe.

Cameron: Maybe they go more than one time, though, to Virgin Club. 

Deepa: I mean, I think Hanna only goes once. 

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: But maybe it's further in the future than we think it is. Yeah. Because Homecoming…okay, my school didn't have this, so do you get elected at the dance? You do, right? Like there's voting up until the dance, and then at the dance they announce it, right? 

Cameron: Yeah, I think so. 

Deepa: So then you get the pictures taken after - no, you get the pictures taken that day, but she has to do re-shoots because she leaves the dance and leaves Sean there.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay, that's why they had to do reshoots. I was trying to remember why Lucas was involved so much in the photos.

Cameron: I just - it happens - I think Homecoming is next episode?

Deepa: Okay. Which - they haven't decided to go together yet. 

Cameron: That's why I was like, this doesn't make any sense. But that's fine.

Deepa: Something that has never made any sense to me is how Homecoming King and Queen – again, my high school didn't have these - how they end up being couples, right? Like you don't run as a couple. You run as individual people, don't you? Or do you run as a pair?

Cameron: No, I think you're individuals. 

Deepa: Okay.

Cameron: I don't got it. 

Deepa: There’s just only supposed to be one popular girl and one popular guy.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay. [laughs] Okay. America. [both laugh] Okay. Well, either way, we get Lucas very soon, if Homecoming is next episode. Lucas. Oh, Lucas. Hanna's friend, kind of.

Cameron: Kind of, yeah.

Deepa: Kind of. Oh, we haven't talked about Emily and Maya yet. 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Yeah, they're going through some stuff.

Cameron: Mhm.

Deepa: I just noticed that when Emily is trying - Emily, you know, is kind of shitty to Maya, and then later is kind of shitty to Toby - and when she makes up with them, she shows up with this kind of weird smile on her face, like…expecting them to be ready for her apology, and like, be willing to like immediately make up with her? I don't know. Maybe it's just because Shay needs to grow into her acting a little bit more, but it almost looks kind of smug. 

Cameron: Oh!

Deepa: It's just like, “Oh, you were waiting for me to come and apologize. I'm here now!”

Cameron: Oh, smug! Wow.

Deepa: I don't know. It might just be Shay’s acting at this point. Sorry, Shay! You get better, I know you do. But like her conversation with Maya is, I don't know. It's interesting because she does ask for space, but also they don't talk about anything, right? Maya says the kiss didn't – essentially, that a kiss is just a kiss, and, like Emily does want to know what it means. 

Cameron: Yeah. 

Deepa: And it would actually be helpful if they talked about what their hopes are here before they took space, right? So that Emily could have something to think about during that space? Because Maya also doesn't make it clear, necessarily, what she wants.

Cameron: No, she explicitly says that Emily is reading too much into things, right, or like, “Why do things have to mean things?”

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. Which is not true, we know that. But yeah, it's just kind of a weird interaction that way of - what is Emily going to be processing during this space, you know? 

Cameron: Yeah!

Deepa: And I think it's okay for her to want to know what it means. Like she had just broken up with her boyfriend. They go into a photobooth. They kiss, they come out. Yes, she's afraid of being outed, but also she just like - they ever talk about it!

Cameron: No.

Deepa: So she is a little shitty to Maya about it in terms of haranguing her about the photos. But also I do think Maya has a part to play in terms of not helping - in terms of figuring out where they both are with it. And, like, granted, she could probably approach Maya when she's not at her job.

Cameron: At her job!

Deepa: That would probably be better! People are so weird about that. Always approaching people at their jobs. 

Cameron: I guess it's just like, you know they'll be there?

Deepa: I know, but that’s why it’s shitty! 

Cameron: They literally can't leave.

Deepa: They can't leave, and they have to be Customer Service Voice.

Cameron: Because they’re in front of customers! At the cupcake shop!

Deepa: At the cupcake shop! That sticks around for a little bit, but not that long, I think.

Cameron: Long enough to punish Hanna.

Deepa: Exactly, to get some fatphobic punishment for Hanna.

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Ugh. [sighs] Yeah. Yeah, I think we don't see Maya for a little bit after this, because then we - cause I think also at this point the show is supposed to make us think that there could be something between Emily and Toby, right? Like either unrequited from his part, or that she's also interested in, potentially, because we haven't gotten any - I mean, I don't think we've got any other sense of what Emily defines her sexuality as. And also she does seem like drawn to Toby, and they're kind of putting them - I think they're not putting them in opposition right now, but when Emily and Toby end up going to Homecoming, there's very clearly this thing where Hanna is like, “Oh, I thought you meant Maya.”

Cameron: Yeah!

Deepa: So that's, that's kind of interesting right now. And I think we don't see Maya for a little while, and she's kind of unsure about the Toby stuff because she wasn't expecting Emily to go to the dance with someone. 

Cameron: Yeah. And I think - well. I guess we just assume that Toby probably has a crush on Emily, because why not, right?

Deepa: Yeah, I guess. 

Cameron: But he's like - I think Toby is pretty aware that she's not into him.

Deepa: Totally! I think that's what he is trying to imply to her in one of the conversations, and then she doesn't really get it, right?

Cameron: No, she does not get it at all. He’s like, “Different is good!” [both laugh]

Deepa: “Different is good!” Thanks, Toby.

Cameron: Thanks, Toby. Yeah, ally!

Deepa: Ally-to-not-bisexual journey! I don't think Toby is bisexual - 

Cameron: I don't think so.

Deepa: - even though he and Caleb have a bromance or whatever.

Cameron: Oh, right.

Deepa: Another 2014 word, “bromance”! 

Cameron: Jesus.

Deepa: Or at least early 2010s. 

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: I'm trying to remember…what is he actually - well, we'll get to this with Homecoming - but he has something to tell Emily, right? And she thinks it's something either horrible or that he's hitting on her or attacking her right? And then…yeah. I can’t remember exactly what it is.

Cameron: I can't remember either, but it's like it gets people - their sense of “maybe violence is going to happen” is just like upped. They're just like, “Oh my gosh,” something, “Toby is gonna kill Emily. At the school dance.”

Deepa: At the school dance! But I don't think anyone in this show has died at the school dance. So that's one plus. Lots of school dances. Can't remember anyone dying at one. Oh! In Original Sin someone dies at a school dance.

Cameron: Aaah!

Deepa: Except it wasn’t a school dance, it was a rave, but still. [both laugh] Original Sin is too gritty for school dances.

Cameron: Yeah, they don't have those.

Deepa: Just have raves in warehouses.

Cameron: Raves in warehouses! No, the school dances are usually just, like, fraught with people in masks…

Deepa: Yup, yup. Someone showing up in a dress.

Cameron: People that shouldn’t be there. 

Deepa: Melissa.

Cameron: Why are old people at these dances?

Deepa: Old people…  [laughs] I think at one point Melissa's there because - I think Melissa is going to be at the Homecoming because she's a former Homecoming Queen. But she's not like the past Homecoming Queen, because she's been out of high school for ages. 

Cameron: No, it's not her job, and I don't think she even gives the crown away. She's just there to be like –

Deepa: She’s just there to be pretty and, I think, at some point in the future, she's at some dances like Ian's date because he's the coach. But like that’s not a thing. You don't bring your partner to chaperone the dance, right? 

Cameron: I don't think so. 

Deepa: If you're a chaperone, you don't have a date. 

Cameron: Yeah, I don’t think…my reference, I guess, is Friday Night Lights, and I don't think they bring each other as dates when they’re chaperoning. 

Deepa: They do both work at the school, though. So…

Cameron: So that would be less weird? 

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, I think less weird if they're both at the dances. [laughing] Oh, man.

Cameron: So I guess this is a Homecoming hype up episode. 

Deepa: I guess. We just remember a lot about Homecoming. I don't think I particularly like that episode. 

Cameron: No…

Deepa: We're just ticking down the clock until Caleb gets here, and we have to get through Homecoming for that to happen. And one more dance after that, we have to get through the, like - I thought it was Homecoming, but it's not. It's like the dance-a-thon, right?

Cameron: Dance-a-thon?!

Deepa: There’s a dance-a-thon thing where Hanna keeps dancing with Lucas, remember?

Cameron: Oh, that's not Homecoming? Question mark question mark?

Deepa: I don’t think that’s Homecoming, I think it's a dance-a-thon. So we think we have to deal with Sean for a little while longer than I thought.

Cameron: Ew. Are we fundraising for something at the dance-a-thon? 

Deepa: I think so. Yeah.

Cameron: Interesting. 

Deepa: Because that's why they have another dance so soon after Homecoming?

Cameron: Sure. [both laugh]

Deepa: Who knows. Who knows.

Cameron: I don't know. [laughs] I have a couple lingering questions. 

Deepa: Yes! 

Cameron: Whose car did Hannah use to get Spencer from the motor court? Whose car is that?

Deepa: Great question! Hanna doesn't have a car. They talk about that. 

Cameron: Hanna doesn’t have a car! 

Deepa: Great question.

Cameron: Is that Ashley's car?

Deepa: She was at the restaurant. 

Cameron: Right.

Deepa: Yeah, I don't know. Great question. Yeah.

Cameron: Got my detective hat on. [both laugh]

Deepa: Yeah, I do not have an answer. Yeah. And how did Mona know that she'd be in a car at that moment? Anyway, that will – 

Cameron: Well, Mona knows everything. I don't think we need to question that.

Deepa: You’re right, you’re right.

Cameron: Also, like, is Wilden involved in every cop thing except vehicular stuff?

Deepa: I guess so. Thank God, I mean, you'd think he would have insinuated himself in there - 

Cameron: Right!

Deepa: - given this. Although I guess there is the implication that no one called the cops. Because…

Cameron: Why were there cops then? 

Deepa: Were there cops?

Cameron: Okay, in the very opening, Ashley's talking to some cops. 

Deepa: Ohhhh. Okay, I forgot about that. 

Cameron: But it's, like, not a big thing. And I'm like, why isn't this something? 

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I forgot about that. Yeah, you typically want to like – your insurance will want you to call the cops. Otherwise, they'll charge you way more. Okay. Yeah, I don't know. Wilden had a day off – 

Cameron: Had a day off!

Deepa: - or was just like, “This is not the way to get in with Ashley Marin.” Will only use murder and shoplifting to blackmail her into sleeping with me.

Cameron: God!

Deepa: Gross.

Cameron: Hmmm.

Deepa: I have one thing that's not a question, but that I don't want to end on, so I'm going to say it now -

Cameron: Say it! 

Deepa: - which is that we're already at the point where people are being weird about A's gender.

Cameron: Already! 

Deepa: Already! Like - and I don't actually think that's foreshadowing, because I don't think they had figured out what, you know, stuff with Charlotte later. It's just that they're weird! And, like, will try to use any other pronoun other than “they” to talk about the unknown gender of A! 

Cameron: Yeah, we got - yeah, just a slew of different things.

Deepa: Yeah. Which, like, it/its genders are totally valid. But in this context - I don't think that's what they're referring to.

Cameron: In this context, they're -

Deepa: They're just trying to dehumanize A by degendering – or, like, gendering? Okay, not degendering, but gendering A in some specific category that like…I don't know. It's weird. It's weird. So just throwing that out there.

Cameron: I have…it’s not a question, but then also more of a theory. 

Deepa: So it’s not a comment, it's a theory. Okay.

Cameron: No, it’s a theory! [both laugh]

Deepa: Wow, you got around that one. Okay.

Cameron: Yeah, it’s not a comment. [laughs]

Deepa: Hit me with your theory.

Cameron: So Emily and Toby are talking about music. And Toby is like, “You know that band??” And Emily’s like, “Yeah, my cousin works at a bar and snuck me into their show.” And I was like, why - are you just making shit up? Because we know nothing – we never encounter this person! So., I think Emily might be a better liar than we're giving her credit for. 

Deepa: She's not the weakest link??

Cameron: Not the weakest link.

Deepa: Okay, wow, Emily. Emily.

Cameron: Just making stuff up.

Deepa: That's really funny. [laughs] Emily has cousins? I mean – 

Cameron: I don't think so. 

Deepa: I - could see Emily having cousins that we just never meet.

Cameron: Okay.

Deepa: Because people in my life know I have cousins, but never meet them particularly. 

Cameron: That's true. I just - yeah, potentially. I just.

Deepa: I guess you have met several of my cousins. So maybe that doesn't work quite so well.

Cameron: I just - I was like, what are we talking about? [laughs]

Deepa: Yeah, Emily has these hook ups at the cool –

Cameron: At the club!

Deepa: - bar!

Cameron: Oh, man. Yeah.

Deepa: Wait, so what was the theory? Just that Emily is a better liar than we thought she was?

Cameron: Yeah! That’s the theory. [both laugh]

Deepa: Sorry, I thought we were going to go into a whole, like, Aria Is A level theory now. 

Cameron: No, I don't have a galaxy brain take about it. I just wanted to - 

Deepa: You just wanted to not say it was a comment.

Cameron: Yeah. [both laugh]

Deepa: Should we be tracing the Aria Is A theory throughout this? Because we always joke about it. And I feel like the only time we really talk about it is when we get to the train episode. But maybe we should give attention to that theory, because people were so into it.

Cameron: And maybe it would give us something else to do - 

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, okay.

Cameron: - when she's hanging out with that man.

Deepa: Yeah, not just Foot Vision.

Cameron: Foot Vision!

Deepa: Which is great, but only sustainable for so long. 

Cameron: It really doesn't work, like…much of the time. 

Deepa: No, no, you're more - it's more a distraction of how funny it is that you’re sticking your feet up to the screen. [laughs] I don’t even know if it’s going to be apparent to listeners what we mean by this. Like, literally, we're just putting our feet in front of our faces.

Cameron: In front of where Ezra would be!

Deepa: In our line of sight, like, not on the TV, because we're not putting our feet on the TV. 

Cameron: No, because that's gross. 

Deepa: That's gross, Just like how everyone in the show puts their shoes on the bed, also gross.

Cameron: But that’s like…every television.

Deepa: I know, I know.

Cameron: It’s so weird.

Deepa: It is very weird. I know. 

Cameron: I don't - if anyone knows why that is, let us know. Because it’s everywhere.

Deepa: Is that a real thing that people do, and that's why it's in every TV show? It's not a real thing anyone I know does, but like…

Cameron: It might be white culture. 

Deepa: I do think it's white culture to wear shoes in the house sometimes, right?

Cameron: Yeah.

Deepa: Okay, but the shoes go on the furniture? That's the part that –

Cameron: They might. Like, it's a slippery slope, right? You got your feet - you got your shoes on, and then you get in bed. [both laugh]

Deepa: You change your other clothes to go to bed!

Cameron: You can't change your shoes though.

Deepa: You just gotta get into your PJs on top of your shoes?

Cameron: Yeah, exactly. Gross.

Deepa: Wow. Okay, okay. But - does Emily ever put her feet on the bed, because Emily’s not a white person?

Cameron: Hmm.

Deepa: We’ll have to see. 

Cameron: We'll have to do some close foot analysis. [both laugh] Great.

Deepa: You know what? Maybe it's just because they're not supposed to show feet. You always point out when people are showing feet on TV. So. [both laugh]

Cameron: That's true. It's censorship.

Deepa: They could just use socks, but instead, they decided to go all the way with shoes. Okay, yes, paying attention to Aria Is A theories could help with our help with our issue that is going to be the ongoing issue of this entire show. 

Cameron: Yeah, maybe we'll come up with other strategies. But this is, like, I think this is a healthy approach. [both laugh] I think it's funny that we get like a smidge of therapy.

Deepa: Ooh, yeah.

Cameron: Just like a suggestion of therapy.

Deepa: A suggestion of therapy, but like, the early tracings of this show’s take on psychology and psychotherapy and it being sinister to start off with.

Cameron: Well, it’s sinister to go to therapy –

Deepa: Right, right. Is therapy itself sinister unclear? Okay.

Cameron: And they're like ready to diagnose people with Multiple Personality Disorder just straight off the gate. That was hilarious. [both laughing]

Deepa: That was really funny.

Cameron: I appreciated that. 

Deepa: Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Also, I love the little therapist bell. I've never seen that before.

Cameron: Oh, I have seen that before. 

Deepa: You have seen that before? I haven't seen that before. 

Cameron: Yeah, in old-school offices. 

Deepa: Really? Is it just for therapy? Or is it just generally like a bell, for…

Cameron: No, it's like - you just let them know you're there, and then you go sit in the lounge, and read your little magazine, or whatever.

Deepa: I've never seen this. I always just sat in the lounge, and the therapist came and got me.

Cameron: That also works. But it's – like there’s a little light up thing, too, I think. 

Deepa: Okay. But what if the therapist is in a previous - I guess they don't usually schedule back-to-back sessions – but, like, what if they were in a back-to-back session or something? That'd be weird, wouldn't it?

Cameron: If they were back-to-back? 

Deepa: Well, and then the light went off while they were with a previous client.

Cameron: This is a tangent, but I am always rewatching Grey’s Anatomy, as you know. And they have a therapist at hospital, and Meredith is always barging in to see the therapist. She's with people, she's not. It's so funny. [both laugh]

Deepa: Oh my god. Meredith. That's so funny because we do talk about how these people barge in, but they don't barge in when she's with a client, or something.

Cameron: No, they're just, like, “Are you open? Do you have an availability right now?”

Deepa: Yes, and she always has slots available for the Liars.

Cameron: Which is nice. Thank you, therapist Anne.

Deepa: Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Hints of therapy. Yeah. [laughs] I think my last thing, which is hopefully a fun thing, is that the creepy A flower grave pot reminds me of the doll hospital creepiness rising out of the grave. 

Cameron: Aaaaah!

Deepa: Isn't it, like, doesn't it…?

Cameron: Yes! Oh my god, thank you! 

Deepa: Which is really fun - I think is really fun because we love the - we find the doll hospital incredibly creepy, and also, it's really fun. What does the doll say? Do you remember?

Cameron: Give me like two seconds.

Deepa: Okay, okay.

Cameron: “Dead like me”? No.

Deepa: It's like…

Cameron: “Follow me”? No.

Deepa: Yeah, no, I think it’s something like that. No, I think you're right that there is a “dead like me” in the end. But it's not the start. It’s okay if you can’t -

Cameron: I think it's like “come with me” or like “follow me”. It's two things, right? Two separate things. 

Deepa: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. Maybe one of them is “follow me”. [laughs] We don't have to get it right now. We can get to doll hospital.  

Cameron: [laughing] I'll text you later. 

Deepa: We can add it to the show notes. [both laugh] 

Cameron: Okay, I need to –

Deepa: “Follow me, end up like me”?

Cameron: Yes! “Follow me, end up like me”, yes! Yes, thank you!

Deepa: Yes! [in creepy high-pitched voice] “Follow meee…”

Cameron and Deepa: [in the creepy voice] “…end up like meee!” [laugh]

Cameron: Eeee!

Deepa: I just thought creepy flower pot grave was a nice precursor to that. 

Cameron: It was cute!

Deepa: It was cute! It was very artistic, and, like, very good making use of what is already there, Mona. Mona, of course, is artistic.

Cameron: Yeah, very, just, like, resourceful. 

Deepa: Yeah, exactly. [laughs] Do you want to wrap it up there?

Cameron: [in creepy high-pitched voice] “Follow me, end up like me! Follow me, end up like me.” Do you have a recipe for us? 

Deepa: Yes, I think today we're going to have Chana Masala, which is obviously an Indian recipe. It’s, I think, typically north Indian, but we make it in south India too now. The recipe that I have is for Instant Pot, although you can totally make it not in that too. We will put it in the show notes.

Cameron: Show notes!

Deepa: Show notes! [both laugh] I wish we could just link to whatever Heather Hogan article we’re referencing in the show notes. But I don't know that I can find them both because of the AfterEllen archive issue, and just because we don't always know what we're referencing, we just have this vague sense in our head.

Cameron: Yeah…swirly mess. [laughs]

Deepa: Exactly, exactly. we'll find something else to put in the show notes.

Cameron: A little treat.

Deepa: Do you want to sign us off this time? 

Cameron: Yeah, okay. Act normal, bitches!